Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Why Narcissists Are So Good At Disturbing Our Peace: Interview with Anna Runkle, Crappy Childhood Fairy

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. & Lisa Sonni • Season 3 • Episode 100

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Have you noticed how upset narcissists get? How they can't regulate themselves?

Anna Runkle of the wildly popular Crappy Childhood Fairy YouTube channel joins me today to talk about the importance of learning how to regulate yourself, especially after living with a narcissist.

Learn more about the role of psychological regulation plays in setting us free from the lingering effects of trauma and abuse.

Want to know the first steps to gaining peace and control after an upsetting event? Find out Anna's recommendations when you become a subscriber of Breaking Free Podcast Extra Substack newsletter. Get exclusive access to this extra interview along with takeaways and practical how-tos. Get immediate access here:

To learn more about Anna:
Website: https:crappyChildhoodFairy.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crappychildhoodfairy/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CrappyChildhoodFairy/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@crappychildhoodfairy
Get her latest book, Re-Regulated: Set Your Life Free from Childhood PTSD and Change the Trauma-Driven Behaviors That Keep You Stuck Here: https://amzn.to/3PpG8Fx

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Kerry McAvoy, PhD

Lisa Sonni

More About Us!

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Lisa Sonni

Lisa Sonni is a certified Life & Relationship Coach, specializing in trauma bond recovery and abuse education, who helps clients from all walk

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00:00:05:20 - 00:00:27:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

How is your traumatic childhood affecting you today? Well, to answer that question, Anna Runkle, author of Reregulated, and also the host of Crappy Childhood Fairy YouTube channel, joins me to talk about how emotional and other forms of dysregulation can affect this on a daily basis. I'm so excited to have Anna Runkle on today. I have been a long time admirer of yours.

00:00:27:18 - 00:00:43:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I've been watching your YouTube channel. I think it's called A Crappy Childhood Fairy is the channel. And then you have a new book out. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, about what you're interested in, and then we can hop into the topic that we're going to get into, which has to do with regulating ourselves after having a traumatic childhood.

00:00:44:04 - 00:00:46:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

How did you get interested in this topic?

00:00:46:05 - 00:01:06:05

Anne Runkle

I grew up in a family that had a lot of alcoholism and addiction, and our family had a lot of the problems that go along with that pretty normal, you know, poverty and some violence and a lot of neglect, creepy adults kind of hanging around the house, that sort of thing. And I was a pretty resilient kid, but in my late 20s, I had what I might call a trauma storm.

00:01:06:07 - 00:01:22:17

Anne Runkle

A lot of bad things happened at the same time I got attacked on the street was the big thing, and I think I had PTSD from that attack, but also a lot of stuff that I had compartmentalized from before I got out. And I started showing classic signs of complex PTSD. But it was 30 years ago. They didn't have words for it.

00:01:22:20 - 00:01:29:08

Anne Runkle

It was really hard for me to get help for it, and I stumbled on some techniques that helped me recover from that. And I've been teaching people ever since.

00:01:29:11 - 00:01:37:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That's fascinating. How did you actually start, like the channel that you're getting interested in saying, I really want to help others with what I recovering from?

00:01:37:11 - 00:01:56:15

Anne Runkle

I learned a couple of techniques back in 1994. I stumbled on them, and they helped me so dramatically that very quickly after that, I mean, I was just changing in front of people's eyes and they were like, what are you doing? So I started teaching other people and for the first 25 years of healing, I was showing people one on one how to use my techniques, showed hundreds of people.

00:01:56:19 - 00:02:17:01

Anne Runkle

But it was about ten years ago I read the book The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, and I found out the whole time I knew that this thing made me feel better, but from what? What was wrong? And I realized I had had classic symptoms of complex PTSD the whole time. That's the kind that comes from chronic, ongoing, intense stress, usually during childhood.

00:02:17:01 - 00:02:35:00

Anne Runkle

And I knew that I had a rough childhood, but I didn't understand how broadly it was affecting me. So when I learned that within a couple of years I started blogging Crappy Childhood Fairy And it was first just a few really, you know, cruddy little blogs with bad drawings and things. And then I made a video and pretty soon it grew into a great big company.

00:02:35:00 - 00:02:48:04

Anne Runkle

And it really hit a nerve with people. A lot of people have what I have, and it's been this amazing journey connecting with everybody and creating videos and a book. And now a second book is going to be coming out next year. And courses, coaching workshops.

00:02:48:06 - 00:02:54:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

What do you see as the classic hallmark of an adult who's still struggling with a crappy childhood?

00:02:54:04 - 00:03:15:14

Anne Runkle

Well, complex PTSD is a cluster of symptoms. And you know, I'm not a therapist or doctor, so I don't diagnose people, but I describe the symptoms. And if people relate to those symptoms, it could be what they have. And they include, first of all, neurological dysregulation. That's something that a lot of people didn't know. What is that there's a lot of symptoms you can feel when you're dysregulated.

00:03:15:14 - 00:03:35:02

Anne Runkle

It makes you feel discombobulated and numb and sort of forget what you're doing. And brain fog, which everybody feels from time to time. But it turns out it's very, very common for people who had trauma when they were young. It also includes symptoms like emotional dysregulation, where getting angry can turn into a great big explosion. And then you come back down and you think, oh, why did I say that?

00:03:35:02 - 00:03:57:07

Anne Runkle

It's a very strong emotions, and we now know that early trauma also is strongly correlated with chronic disease, including heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, reproductive disorders, endocrine disorders, autoimmune disorders. Those are things where people didn't realize that there's a strong link with trauma. It's not the only reason people get that. And just because you were traumatized doesn't mean you will get it.

00:03:57:07 - 00:04:15:08

Anne Runkle

But the risk is quite high. So we now know that neurological dysregulation is sort of a it's in effect, an injury that happens to your nervous system as a result of these early traumas. So things can glitch out. They don't function quite right when you're under stress. And if you can learn to start getting re regulated, you can reverse all these problems.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:23:06

Anne Runkle

You can begin to anyway. And life can get much, much easier. Everything becomes possible when you learn to reregulate. That's the title of my book, Re Regulated.

00:04:23:07 - 00:04:31:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That's a great title. I really love that. How do you think most people come to realize they're not regulated? What do you think people experience internally says this is going wrong?

00:04:31:07 - 00:04:49:12

Anne Runkle

Well, honestly, everybody gets dysregulated. Everybody eventually reregulate. But people who had trauma do it more. But I don't think a lot of people realize that's what it is like once you have a name for it. Because I'm on YouTube and I put videos out where I talk about it, I get hundreds of comments back along the lines of, oh my gosh, I have that.

00:04:49:12 - 00:05:07:21

Anne Runkle

I didn't know it was even a thing. And it's great relief to find out it is a thing. And it's really common for traumatized people. And there's something you can do about it. But once people understand what it is, that's a lot of what my programs are about is working with your dysregulation and learning to reregulate as quickly as possible and stay regulated more of the time.

00:05:07:21 - 00:05:24:00

Anne Runkle

What usually tips people off that they're doing it. I think the thing that it's the one that drives people away, the emotional dysregulation, the lashing out is probably the one that causes the most pain in our lives. Getting brain fogged. You know, who knew or not being able to focus? Who knew that that might be trauma related, right.

00:05:24:00 - 00:05:41:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We tend to blame ourselves for that. It's like, I if there's something wrong with me, that's why I'm not thinking more clearly. But I don't always think all people recognize that lashing out is harmful. I think some people, if they're more on the arrogant scale, they're going to say that they have a right to do that. But I think those that are sensitive to the cost to the relationship, that would be really distressing to them.

00:05:41:11 - 00:06:05:08

Anne Runkle

Well, there's also I think a lot of advice for people is really like buy non traumatized people that works for non traumatized people. Like feel all your feelings. You should express everything you feel. But if you get emotionally dysregulated that might not be the best advice that sometimes the best thing you can do is regulate your emotions. Get them right sized rather than your nervous system is just completely losing control and bursting out on everybody.

00:06:05:10 - 00:06:15:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Do you find there's one emotion that we tend to get dysregulated more often around than others? I mean, obviously the one that comes up for me is anger. And I also think shames a big culprit as well.

00:06:15:19 - 00:06:36:20

Anne Runkle

Sometimes I think of shame as anger itself too. So shame and guilt or sort of anger itself, or resentment at yourself, the things that seem to trigger dysregulation in people the most is getting criticized. Getting left abandonment is a huge trigger, and I think getting overwhelmed, like too many things coming at you at once. Those are those will tend to trigger dysregulation in a lot of people.

00:06:37:01 - 00:06:38:05

Anne Runkle

Different people are different.

00:06:38:05 - 00:06:46:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So what might be some signs that you're dysregulated. Because people may not even recognize that feeling. But then they are going to see that behavior faster.

00:06:46:13 - 00:07:06:03

Anne Runkle

For me, you can't feel all signs of dysregulation. There are a few you can feel, the ones I can feel first, or that my hands feel numb and my nose feels numb. And now I realize like that's a gift because of my nose starts feeling numb. Like I may not even realize that I'm starting to sort of veer off into the danger zone, but it means time to stop trying to convince anybody of whatever I'm saying.

00:07:06:09 - 00:07:28:00

Anne Runkle

Time to just, like, gently let it rest for a minute, maybe take a break and get re regulated before I continue the conversation. For some people, it's their heart starts racing, you know, because the stress, it's the cortisol, the adrenaline, all that stuff. Sometimes it serves us, sometimes it's not serving us. It's just amping us up because of a perceived threat that puts us in fight or flight response.

00:07:28:00 - 00:07:45:17

Anne Runkle

But the dysregulation where you just can't think. I had a very rough week once, like a lot of traumatic stuff was going on in that week. And twice I tried to fill up my car and then drove off with the gas pump in my car and dragging the whole thing down the highway. And then also that week, I rear ended a truck.

00:07:45:17 - 00:08:09:13

Anne Runkle

Luckily, a truck with a steel bumper at the side didn't damage the truck, but I was just really checked out. And dysregulation makes it really hard to pay attention to predict consequences of things. It can lead you to make impulsive choices, and it produces ADHD like symptoms, but it also changes things like how you metabolize carbohydrates. Like a lot of stuff changes when your nervous system isn't quite functioning, right.

00:08:09:16 - 00:08:10:18

Anne Runkle

Oh that's fascinating.

00:08:10:22 - 00:08:29:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I notice that you're describing on one end sort of the numbing, the dissociation that can happen. And then there's also the lashing out, taking things very personal, becoming explosive, maybe even kind of scary. Do you find that people on one end more than another tend to recognize that they're in trouble, or not necessarily?

00:08:29:08 - 00:08:44:07

Anne Runkle

I think that we people get less afraid or upset with us when we just can't get off the couch. It's not great, but that's when your nervous system is just flattened out. That's one end of it. And then the other end is, you know, T-Rex comes out. I think there's more immediate consequence is for when it's that strong.

00:08:44:07 - 00:09:01:22

Anne Runkle

But a lot of people, we swing back and forth. So sometimes it's not just dysregulation, but it goes around productivity. Like sometimes you'll have this really great run of productivity. You get something done, there's a big accomplishment. And then afterwards a big crash. And even though it was something good that happened, your nervous system can't go on. And so this was never understood.

00:09:01:22 - 00:09:16:17

Anne Runkle

We just would blame ourselves, you know? I'm just bitchy and then I'm lazy. And it turns out there's a lot going on with your nervous system. And when you know that that's what it is, you can start treating your nervous system and helping it come back together. And that is a lot more effective than self attack.

00:09:16:17 - 00:09:22:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

What do you recommend is the first step people should start to do if they think they're dysregulated? Well, there's one thing.

00:09:22:19 - 00:09:39:16

Anne Runkle

That should be the first line of every treatment. And it's move your body just getting that, moving your body maybe going outside to do it is one of the first things you can do to get out of a stuck mode. But sometimes, let's say arguing with a partner, there will be a feeling of like, I've got to convince my partner of this thing right now.

00:09:39:16 - 00:09:58:14

Anne Runkle

It has to be now. It's urgent. I have to. Unless they believe me, I can't be okay. It starts to like ratchets up and the perceived importance of it. The first thing to do in that case, when somebody else is with you, is to try to find a way to get a pause. And if it's somebody who you have a pretty good relationship with or who understands you're working on this, you can say, you know what?

00:09:58:16 - 00:10:12:17

Anne Runkle

I feel like I'm getting really dysregulated. I don't want to yell at you right now. Could I take a break and, you know, get myself regulated before we continue this conversation? Because I really want to hear what you're trying to tell me. That would be, like high end, very good stuff. Easier said than done.

00:10:12:17 - 00:10:13:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Because in the.

00:10:13:08 - 00:10:29:14

Anne Runkle

Heat of the moment, it will feel like that threat response comes up and it just seems like this is the worst person in the world and they deserve whatever they've got coming. And I probably should run out the front door with a suitcase. And that's the distorted thinking, that's the trauma talking. So the pause allows you to kind of process things.

00:10:29:16 - 00:10:44:09

Anne Runkle

And unless you're in physical danger from somebody, which is a whole different story, there's nothing that has to be decided right now. You can take a pause and work on Reregulate and see where you stand in a little bit. And a lot of things will settle down and perspective returns when you can do that.

00:10:44:11 - 00:11:01:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I call it creating space. If we can just find a way to sort of insert space. And I also often urge people to get in touch with where do they feel in their body so they can learn to recognize that feeling. So they can then say, oh, I need to create space because I'm feeling that feeling like the air is getting cold kind of experience.

00:11:01:14 - 00:11:22:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, it gets tricky when we have a partner who's not regulating themselves well, and that maybe we're doing a better job. I often, especially on this channel, we talk a lot about people who are in a toxic relationship with partners who don't regulate, and then they're asked to regulate them. So how can we know that we're taking on too much emotional responsibility for somebody else's dysregulation?

00:11:22:02 - 00:11:45:16

Anne Runkle

Oh, well, my formation was in a 12 step program for families of alcoholics, which has a big focus on like bringing the focus onto yourself. And I think that served me really well, that I gave up the idea a long time ago, that I am very influential about how well somebody else is regulated. But I will say, as a person who has gotten dysregulated in my marriage before, like I know that I can trigger him into dysregulation.

00:11:45:16 - 00:12:07:07

Anne Runkle

And I think when somebody is getting, you know, there's like co regulation and there's co dysregulation, we really can't influence each other. The main thing I can do is take responsibility for my own self-regulation. And there's an art to that of being able to keep the focus on yourself without being cold and cruel to the other person, just to stay supportive of them, but not to try to take responsibility to make it happen.

00:12:07:08 - 00:12:21:02

Anne Runkle

You know, it's funny because I have like a million followers, but in my life, I know very well that it's really on me to stay self-regulated and that when I'm in any kind of conflict of people, the last thing they want to hear is that I have an opinion about what they need to do.

00:12:21:05 - 00:12:41:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Is really tricky, because in toxic relationships there's a lot of blaming the app. And I'm acting out because you make me act out or I didn't do this because somehow you didn't do the right thing or you're not on the spot and it gets really tough. And I hear you, it sounds like when I hear you saying is, it's really important for us to come back to ourselves and say, like, what is my actual sphere of influence?

00:12:42:04 - 00:12:44:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, what can I do or not do here?

00:12:44:12 - 00:13:03:19

Anne Runkle

While staying regulated is the strongest thing you can do to influence another person in a good way? And then I think there are things you can do with somebody who's dysregulated where like, I wouldn't pepper them with questions. I wouldn't press them to try to realize something or do something. Right now, once somebody is dysregulated, that stuff can go south very quickly.

00:13:03:23 - 00:13:24:18

Anne Runkle

And then also, if you need a break, you can use language that isn't triggering. And you know, we're not responsible for other people's triggers, just like they're not responsible for ours. The trigger is inside. It's something that we're reacting to. But you know, the reality of the situation face to face with somebody when you're in a conflict is if hurtful things are being said, triggers are going to happen.

00:13:24:18 - 00:13:45:07

Anne Runkle

So we try not to be hurtful, even if the other person is wrong and we're not getting hurtful is never in your best interest. And so when you ask to take a break, you can say, I feel like I'm getting dysregulated. Would it be okay if I take 15 minutes and then we come back because I want to hear what you're saying, and that's really different than saying, screw you, I'm done listening to you get out or I'm leaving.

00:13:45:11 - 00:14:04:09

Anne Runkle

And that's very triggering and that's going to cause a bigger fight. And on a practical level, if you get into a bigger fight, it's not going to work for you. It's going to leave you dysregulated. And before I had any healing, like a dysregulation episode would be like a tsunami, it would just take me out for weeks now, if I were to have something really difficult happen.

00:14:04:09 - 00:14:13:03

Anne Runkle

It might be three days, but I never have three days to just like, donate to being stuck and frozen and feeling terrible. I got a lot going on. I want to I want to be.

00:14:13:03 - 00:14:38:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Here for it. Right? I love what you're saying, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges people face in these relationships is that when they're regulates, then is when they have a partner who's not healthy, who is becoming extremely scary in that moment, they end up feeling like they get caught into it. They get into the swirl of that and they end up feeling like also, then they need to somehow either finish the fight or capitulate to that person or something happens.

00:14:38:16 - 00:14:43:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And what I hear you saying is no, find a way to steady yourself in the midst of that. What I have.

00:14:43:19 - 00:15:02:02

Anne Runkle

Found is that a lot of what's going on in my head under stress is a lot of fearful and resentful thinking. And my old pattern before I was healing was that I always perceived it as like, you are making me feel this way. If you and I are, you know, having a conflict and I feel terrible, you are making me feel that way and you need to stop making me feel that way.

00:15:02:02 - 00:15:25:11

Anne Runkle

You need to make me feel better. I think that's a very non winning position to take. It's not crazy to feel that way, but it's crazy to expect that it's going to work. It never works because people can't fix us like that. And because of my own trauma, there's a lot of layers. If I get really triggered by something and I'm disregulated and upset, there's a lot of layers coming on top of real stuff that's more like projection.

00:15:25:11 - 00:15:46:15

Anne Runkle

The techniques that I learned that I rely on so heavily, I call it the daily practice, and it's a way to process the fearful and resentful thoughts that are coming up, thoughts and feelings so that they can get released and dispersed a little bit. And then what I have to say will be a little cleaned up. It's not going to have layers and layers of old stuff and abandonment wounds from childhood and all this stuff.

00:15:46:21 - 00:16:04:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

What I notice happens, and I know that it happened with me in a toxic relationship is that because we get blamed so much for what's happening in the other person's internal world, then we start to blame them for what's happening in our internal world. And yes, we are victims to the abuse, but then we become victims to their emotions.

00:16:04:16 - 00:16:28:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We become victim to our emotions. And I think there's a lot of emphasis that happens that I think people who survive these relationships don't understand that we do have control over what we do in the moment. And I love that you're emphasizing that, that we can pause and breathe and center ourselves and realize, just because this other person is forcing or seems to be forcing this conversation, that we don't have to be forced into.

00:16:28:19 - 00:16:43:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I had this conversation this morning with somebody where every time they bring up, they would hold a lie. The other person would come in and attack and they felt like they had to like, engage. And they're like, no, you actually don't have to engage. Hold the line. Just keep holding the line.

00:16:43:02 - 00:16:59:11

Anne Runkle

It's a lot easier said than done. In theory, we can do it, but it does take a lot of practice and self-awareness. It kind of takes all the self-awareness. I've got to focus on my side of things, and so it doesn't really matter if somebody else is blaming me for something. It's I've got my plate full with the stuff that I'm blaming.

00:16:59:13 - 00:17:13:05

Anne Runkle

There is a way to release it and get out of it. And when you can think clearly, you can also ask questions like, do I even want to be in this relationship? And that's been a lot of the learning that I've had in the last 30 years. I remember I had a first marriage and that's where my kids were born.

00:17:13:06 - 00:17:30:14

Anne Runkle

I'm married again now, and much more happily, when that divorce was going down, I remember I was angry. It was the first couple of years I was just complaining about it all the time and a friend of mine, I think, got sort of tired of the endless stories about things I was complaining about, about how he was behaving and said, well, you know, you married him.

00:17:30:14 - 00:17:48:21

Anne Runkle

And honestly, that was a turning point for me. And to start looking at what is it in me that I married somebody that I have all this negative feeling about that I think is a problem and not working for me. What was that? And it was so much more productive to be focused on that. And that's really, you know, healing gets going.

00:17:48:21 - 00:18:04:12

Anne Runkle

Well. You can start to bring the focus back in and start working on like, so what brings you to this relationship? A lot of times people will say to me, I attract narcissists. And I have this little pithy saying that everybody says should be a cup, you know, mug. It says, well, I attract mosquitoes, but I don't marry them.

00:18:04:12 - 00:18:18:02

Anne Runkle

It doesn't matter who's attracted to us. It matters who we're attracted to, who we let into our lives, who we bond with. And that's the part of the problem that you actually have some leverage over. And so my healing got much better when I was able to get the focus back there.

00:18:18:04 - 00:18:42:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It's interesting because the other interview I've had recently with somebody who does a lot of work in cults and sees some of these relationships as a cult of two, that eventually that there is a form of mesmerizing spell casting and it says good brainwashing that happens in these initial relationships. It happened to me. I got into one of these relationships as a psychologist who had already 20 years of counseling experience under my belt, and I would have thought that I would've been able to see through it.

00:18:42:21 - 00:19:02:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I think when I look back, when I saw that happen, that made me vulnerable. Was it a lack of awareness, my own internal unmet needs, and how this person seemed to offer them to me on a platter? And then that caused me to be really, like, so susceptible to this individual. And I also underplayed the degree that I was highly vulnerable.

00:19:02:11 - 00:19:38:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It's heart. I agree with you. When we attract narcissist, that doesn't mean we have to need to marry them. It's hard though, when we are not that self-aware to understand what it is that they seem to offer, that we then feel compelled by or hungry for, maybe need for. And what I hearing from you is that if we can understand better what triggers us, where our unmet needs are, and I really agree that we can go back to the age of five and find where these big traumas or little traumas that happened that left this hungering in us or this insecurity in us that we then carry forward into our adulthood.

00:19:38:09 - 00:19:45:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And if we could pull back and see these things, then we can have more control and then protect ourselves in a different way, protect ourselves better.

00:19:45:19 - 00:20:09:10

Anne Runkle

As a person who had a lot of childhood trauma stuff like recognizing I have unmet needs, it was a given. It's just like, what do you even do about that? For me, knowing that sort of thing is not enough. There has to be a way that kind of allows me to see the truth of this situation and to be honest with myself, and I think that's one of the things that's most gotten in my way ever in sick relationships is the loss of the ability to be honest with myself about what do you mean?

00:20:09:10 - 00:20:10:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Example? What you mean.

00:20:10:12 - 00:20:26:07

Anne Runkle

I had a relationship with somebody who turned out to have a serious drug addiction, and I immediately kicked into high gear that even though I had years of Al-Anon under my belt, you know, and I knew better, I just was like, I'll make him go to a certain amount of meetings and get into treatment, and then I won't have to deal with a breakup.

00:20:26:11 - 00:20:44:08

Anne Runkle

But I'll also start hiding what's really going on from everybody we know. Because instinctively you realize that if people know, they're going to say, hey, Anna, you got to get out of there. But I want them to say that there's a weird way that I'm sort of trying to have it all and hold on to the whole idea of the relationship and not be alone and control it.

00:20:44:08 - 00:21:00:21

Anne Runkle

And just all this stuff that I knew better wouldn't work if I were to be honest with myself. It's never going to work. You can't have a relationship with somebody who's using heroin, period. And that's not going to work. And so that's because I had stopped using my my techniques for a while at the time I started dating this person.

00:21:00:23 - 00:21:21:12

Anne Runkle

And, oh, it just did terrible damage to my life. And I think I would guess, you know, I can diagnose people. An addict, therapist, I would say it was probably something like borderline. There were just extreme changes and really destructive behavior or self-destructive behavior and called ex's of mine because he started imagining that I was having an affair with somebody from 20 years ago or something, just crazy stuff.

00:21:21:16 - 00:21:48:09

Anne Runkle

I ended up having to call the police, but then I was still would go back into not just covering the whole situation so that other people didn't know. It was like I was hiding from myself. And I would say it's just because the abandonment wound is so great, it's unbearable. The thought of having to have a breakup is unbearable to my spirit, and the solution was to get honest with myself, to have support, you know, to have friends, like a so many of us are so alone when we're going through these hard relationships.

00:21:48:09 - 00:22:18:22

Anne Runkle

It's just we're so alone and it it makes it worse and lonelier, especially when you're trying to hide how bad things are. And that's a terrible thing. You wake up one day and you don't really have anybody there. So that's what recovery, I think really needs to involve is other people, a community of friends who get it, who support you, who are trying to be honest with themselves and not like, oh, well, boys will be boys or whatever, and who's to rationalize things and they help you, but you're using real tools to get honest with yourself and to process the feelings.

00:22:19:00 - 00:22:36:19

Anne Runkle

People who had trauma as children, you know, I took this course in the neurobiology of trauma, and it was really helpful. And it described something scientifically that I've experienced all my life. But we have a hard time processing thoughts and feelings. They get jammed up in there. And so with all that noise and your thoughts and your feelings, it's very hard to tell.

00:22:37:01 - 00:22:55:19

Anne Runkle

It's hard to have intuition. It's hard to trust your gut. Everything's overwhelming. And so you need a system to be able to move that stuff downstream and have clear perception. And also, because I grew up with alcoholism, my perception was sort of intentionally damaged, you know, by my parents who were trying to tell me everything's fine when I knew nothing was fine.

00:22:55:19 - 00:23:12:17

Anne Runkle

Get in the car. No, I'm not drunk. Get in that kind of thing where you start to learn, oh, I'm just a worrywart. I always worry too much, and you end up with this distorted thinking. So there's all these different levels where the past trauma can mess with your ability to perceive reality. Reality is everything. Reality is the place.

00:23:12:22 - 00:23:27:14

Anne Runkle

Reality here and now is where we solve problems. And so all that focus on other people. In the past, I think it has limited usefulness to really make changes. It's good information to just go, yeah, this happened and now it's happening again. But changes happen by being in reality right now.

00:23:27:15 - 00:23:42:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I phrase it kind of differently, and I see change happening where we realize that safety starts with us, not in the context of our relationship. If we cannot make ourselves and keep ourselves safe, we're not going to find it outside of ourselves. That's way too many variables to try to control.

00:23:42:07 - 00:23:48:04

Anne Runkle

Yeah, it's that weird thing of trying to make somebody else make you feel okay. You could stay up all night arguing about it.

00:23:48:06 - 00:24:02:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I had a therapist tell me, Carrie, he's sitting over there in that chair, and you want him sitting in beside you. But there's nothing you can do to make him stand up and walk over and sit down beside you. That's not going to happen. And I just thought, oh my goodness, she nailed it. Well, this has been really rich.

00:24:02:18 - 00:24:19:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I would I love to do Anna is to jump over it in the podcast extra and talk about how regulating or maybe re regulating looks with somebody when they start to realize they're dysregulated. The couple things that we could leave our listeners with that would be really helpful. But thank you so much for joining me today. Where can they find you?

00:24:19:09 - 00:24:35:18

Anne Runkle

Well, you can find me on YouTube. My channel's called Crampy Childhood Fairy, and so is my website. And the book. The book is out now. It's out right now called Re-Regulated: Set Your Life Free From Childhood PTSD and the trauma driven behaviors that keep you stuck. And you can buy it at online booksellers everywhere.

00:24:35:20 - 00:25:04:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We'll make sure we put it in the show notes so people can find it there, as well as where to find you. Thank you so much for being the guest today. I really deeply appreciate it. Thank you. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy, PhD. And whether you're in, consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship, Find community support at my toxic free Relationship club.

00:25:04:05 - 00:25:11:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com, and I'll see you back here next week.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

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