Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Controlled by Guilt: A Popular Tool Narcissists Love to Use Against You

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. & Lisa Sonni • Season 3 • Episode 101

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Narcissists will use any means to control you, especially guilt.

In this episode, Dr. Kerry and Lisa discuss the common reasons guilt is such a powerful weapon in the hands of a narcissist or toxic personality.

For practical examples of common guilt phrases and how to break free from this toxic dynamic, join the Podcast Extra’s newsletter on SubStack for immediate access to this week’s exclusive video.
Join here: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

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Kerry McAvoy, PhD

Lisa Sonni

More About Us!

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Lisa Sonni

Lisa Sonni is a certified Life & Relationship Coach, specializing in trauma bond recovery and abuse education, who helps clients from all walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships. She has published an online self-guided course, The Trauma Bond Recovery Course, and several books, The Trauma Bond Recovery Journal, and Surviving to Thriving: A Six-Step Blueprint to Narcissistic Abuse Healing and Recovery.

With 7 professional certifications and her own personal experience as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, her expertise is geared towards getting clients to a good space in their lives and within themselves. Lisa has two children and enjoys cooking, reading, and walks. She is a popular content creator on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube under the name Stronger Than Before with over 1M followers, where she educates people on abuse tactics, narcissism and domestic violence.  She has helped thousands of women exit and rebuild their lives.

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00:00:04:17 - 00:00:22:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Toxic people love to weaponize guilt against their victims. Today, Lisa Sonni and I talked about why guilt tripping is such a successful, manipulative move.

00:00:23:01 - 00:00:44:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I have met people who are masterful at trying to control me in the relationship by using guilt, and I don't always know if they know that they're doing it sometimes because they're just the perpetual victim. So life's always unfair. That means I'm unfair or I don't see them accurately. But it has been so difficult to not let that control and compel me.

00:00:44:05 - 00:01:02:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I've seen this with people that we work with too, that they have people especially their toxic partner will then exploit this. Like, you're hurting the kids or you're making me worse, or this is why I do what I do. I cheat on you because whatever what's your experience with this? Is guilt a really great way to get you to.

00:01:02:08 - 00:01:26:00

Lisa Sonni

So for me personally, it's wonderful. That's the best way to do it for me. Even to this day. Guilt gets to me. But I also see this a lot with my clients. I'm constantly talking about all of the guilt that these abusers and exploitative, manipulative, narcissistic people put onto their victims. It works with a lot of people, and I see a wide range of things, and it depends, you know,

00:01:26:00 - 00:01:42:07

Lisa Sonni

but like after everything I've done for you, they want you to feel that they've had these efforts to sacrifice things and that you should be grateful. You're being ungrateful by leaving me after everything I've done for you. But what they've done for you, to you is abuse you.

00:01:42:09 - 00:01:59:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

or they want from you something they're not willing to actually give you. They want you to show up in a way with compassion and care, as if you owe that to them. And yet, if you were to flip the table and ask them to step up in a similar way, they'd never think to do that. It's just not even in the cards.

00:01:59:21 - 00:02:18:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I'm astonished the number of times we fail to see that that this is a one sided relationship that there is not that kind of care and concern for you. So why do you think it works so effectively? Because that's usually the case. it's not a reciprocal situation. there's nothing equal about this. Why is this so compelling for us?

00:02:19:04 - 00:02:38:17

Lisa Sonni

it makes you feel like you've done something wrong or that something is inherently wrong with you, that you've hurt them. And I think we just kind of internalize that. I the way that they've made us feel responsible for them. if you do something wrong towards them, like leave, keep yourself safe, set any type of boundary, have any needs, wants or desires.

00:02:38:17 - 00:02:49:21

Lisa Sonni

They want you to feel guilty so that you don't ask for more, so that you don't ask for your needs to be met so that you stay. it preys on something inside you that makes it really hard.

00:02:49:23 - 00:03:11:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I'm thinking of situations. The scenarios are not even necessarily with romantic partners. I don't know how many times I've had people that I know that I deeply cared about have a scenario with their family that they somehow are the primary care provider, or the one who always deals with X or the one who always has this meal, or a hostess party or whatever it is.

00:03:11:06 - 00:03:27:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

They do this for larger group of people, and is that they're the only one that can do it as if it all rests upon them. And if they can't do it, then the whole thing will crumble and it will be all their fault. And yet, when you stand back, you think, come on, nobody's irreplaceable, first of all.

00:03:27:12 - 00:03:51:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And the second is, there's lots of competent people here. It's just amazing to me that feel so bad and feel so responsible remember nobody did this to this person. They put themselves into that situation. They have to have that party. They don't need to have that get together. The reason they need this sort of support is, because they failed to do something that put them in that position. Probably. I'm thinking right now of somebody who care, takes for a family member.

00:03:51:21 - 00:04:02:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That family member has other people. They're the one that let their health run down. It's not this person is fault or responsibility, But yet, boy, does this keep us entrenched and trapped.

00:04:02:08 - 00:04:21:08

Lisa Sonni

I actually have a client, you know, and that health thing. Her partner has epilepsy. That's not his fault, but he doesn't take his medication. He doesn't take care of himself. He doesn't really follow what the doctor tells him to do. He ends up in the hospital, and she is the only person who can take care of him. His mother comes to try to help and he's like, no, no, I need you.

00:04:21:11 - 00:04:53:00

Lisa Sonni

He has options, but he wants her to feel like she's the only one who really knows how to take care of him. That makes her feel responsible. So when she tries to leave, she feels like he's not going to make it without her. Then she feels guilty for abandoning him. But meanwhile he's done this to himself and not the epilepsy. But way that he needs to be taken care of, the fact that he's put himself in a position where nobody but his mother or frankly, his hostage, basically will take care of him because he's horrible to everyone else around him that people walk away.

00:04:53:04 - 00:05:14:12

Lisa Sonni

Who do you think put him in that situation? And that's true of any of these situations. He's awful to you. You feel guilty for leaving. Meanwhile, he's choosing to be awful to you, and then you feel guilty for leaving a person that is inherently treating you terribly. You have just a desire. You have the desire to just take care of yourself.

00:05:14:13 - 00:05:32:08

Lisa Sonni

You want to just choose you. You just want to not be abused. And that's something to feel guilty for in this context. it's crazy making to feel that way, but it's so true. I also see this and you must see this because if I ever make a video on this topic, people are like, yeah. So when we go, why do they always say this when you give them any piece of feedback,

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:37:03

Lisa Sonni

it's like, oh, so I'm a piece of shit. What's with that phrase? Do you hear the pull

00:05:37:05 - 00:06:01:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

we both know that's a form of DARVO but it works so effectively because we know we're doing it out of a kind heart and a good space. And we want the relationship to be healthy. And so when given this constructive, whether it's a limit or feedback or whatever it is, this rebuttal and push back that aligns us, then we want to defend against it because we know our intentions was never like that or around that.

00:06:01:06 - 00:06:29:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So it's really a great weapon. Here's another way. I also see this play out And I'm thinking of a client that I worked with years ago who, by the way, had a special needs child. So she was already in a tremendously stressful situation, caretaking somebody it was a catastrophic situation, but she had a partner who couldn't set his own alarm and wake himself up and then needed her to not only get up and wake him, but make the coffee for him and make his lunch because he couldn't somehow do that for himself.

00:06:29:22 - 00:06:43:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

This is a grown man not able to set his alarm, make his own coffee, and make his own lunch with a woman who is taking care of their special needs kid already, and has her whole life wrapped up around this very ill child.

00:06:43:12 - 00:07:04:01

Lisa Sonni

Isn't it interesting how we fall into that? And it's like, well, he just he struggles to get up and he just can't. And I don't know what is issue is his issue is that you're doing it for him. And he knows that he doesn't ever have to be better because you allow it. I say that with careful respect, because I know that almost makes it sound like the victim is enabling it, and I want to see ourselves in that way.

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:07:18

Lisa Sonni

I was doing it too, right? I allowed him to treat me that way

00:07:07:20 - 00:07:29:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

because, Lisa, you know what this person is going to do if she stops doing right? Yeah. Blame her. he's going to miss and not going to work possibly jeopardize that job that they need that that health insurance in order to pay for that kid's care. And it will be her fault. So when he doesn't get his little baby man ass up out of bed to to get himself, it will be her fault for failure to set the right alarms for herself.

00:07:29:16 - 00:07:44:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And it will be her fault when they don't have the money to pay the doctor and the medical bills for this kid, even though, I mean, the whole thing was a setup. I think that's why even what you said a second ago. Yeah, you're right, I don't like that. But you're right. but it doesn't feel that way in these situations.

00:07:44:22 - 00:08:01:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

they make it feel like it is us. I mean, here's it got ridiculous in mine. And this is why it didn't work. Because, guilt has worked before. But when the last relationship, it was so ridiculous that I kind of see through it. What was my fault that I had a friendship with somebody else. that it was making him feel threatened.

00:08:01:19 - 00:08:20:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Therefore he was cheating on me, and it was my fault that I couldn't just understand that this was an addiction he was battling with, which is why he kept having relapses. And that I just needed to sort of accept and get on board whether or not I could live with a sex addict. So you see what I'm saying he sort of like putting it and like to me is like, you know what, dude, I didn't make you do any of this.

00:08:21:00 - 00:08:36:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

plus, I'm also in my 50s and I've been down this road enough with other people in my life that I'm now weary of it and I'm not buying it. And I remember I raised three sons, and I've heard plenty of this with kids. So I'm, you know, I'm not buying that there either. what would be interesting is, okay, you say you still struggle with it.

00:08:36:15 - 00:08:44:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I struggle less with it. But how are we growing out of this? So people who are battling it can stop letting it be so powerful?

00:08:44:20 - 00:09:09:23

Lisa Sonni

Well, I think one of the key things, and this is so easy to say, but to choose to really look at who is responsible for what. And I'm not talking about some team discussion here. This isn't a conversation to have with them if you're still in the toxic relationship, but with yourself, who is really responsible for that? Like if I need to make a doctor's appointment, or if I need to see a doctor whose responsibility is my health, the answers me

00:09:10:01 - 00:09:28:13

Lisa Sonni

and therefore you can assume that the the, the. Conversely, he is responsible for himself. And so if it's on you to make his appointments and even if it's a shift, right, even if you've been doing this task, how can you sort of step back and say, you know what, I've got a lot on my plate. I would like you to be responsible for yourself.

00:09:28:13 - 00:09:47:06

Lisa Sonni

And this includes things like making your own appointments. If you can safely do that, if you're still in the relationship. But it's really just about sort of assessing and looking at, am I doing things for people that are not my dependents that I don't need to be doing? if his health goes bad, that is literally his own consequence that affects him.

00:09:47:06 - 00:09:51:00

Lisa Sonni

therefore it's a reasonable assumption that he should be doing that task.

00:09:51:00 - 00:10:14:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I agree it takes us having to deconstruct this whole setup and challenge the assumptions that are being made. And they are ridiculous assumptions we can't make people do or not do certain things. We are not responsible for the outcome of their complicated decisions, regardless of what they think. Here is another one I see two is triangulation. This happens in my own family.

00:10:14:02 - 00:10:29:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I wish I had a better relationship with so-and-so. You know, like one of my kids may not be reaching out to a relative quite in the way this relative wishes. I don't, you know, I'm not close to so-and-so. I really wish I had a better relationship with them. And I'm thinking, that's nothing to do with me. I'm not them and I'm not you.

00:10:29:08 - 00:10:44:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I don't know what effort you two are making, but I have nothing to do with that. I'm staying out of the middle of that. But I don't know if how many times, because they're assuming that my connection to my own son is are going to make me feel guilty that my own sons don't have a better connection, that somehow I'm going to fix that connection to fix the feeling.

00:10:44:16 - 00:11:01:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So I don't feel responsible. But it isn't me. Neither of these parties have anything to do with me, so I think part of it also is just like you said. deconstruct it. Look at where the responsibility really is. deconstruct it and ask yourself if you have the ability to make these things happen. I mean, I'm not involved in that.

00:11:01:05 - 00:11:02:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That has nothing to do with me.

00:11:02:16 - 00:11:21:00

Lisa Sonni

You know, my father used to say this to me, and it was always in the context of work and leadership positions, but I'm realizing in this moment how much it applies to this. He always said, you cannot be, accountable for something that you're not responsible for. So if I'm not responsible for your, health, or your relationship with somebody else, how can I be in charge of that?

00:11:21:00 - 00:11:39:02

Lisa Sonni

So you can't just decide that your wife has to make your doctor's appointments. If you miss doctor's appointments and your health goes out, guess what? That's on you. You're the one who's going to feel physically feel the effects of that. You're the one that's going to miss out on the relationship or whatever. But I do see a lot of people use that with women in their kids,

00:11:39:04 - 00:11:56:08

Lisa Sonni

The kids are going to hate me because of you. And the mother becomes responsible for the father's relationship with the kids. It's our job to facilitate that. And we feel guilty because we're like, oh, I really wish my kids had a better relationship with their dad. And I get that, I really do. But where is dad failing? It's not always gendered.

00:11:56:08 - 00:12:12:09

Lisa Sonni

I'm just talking in the context of this. But where is dad not stepping up where he could be? How are you responsible for a relationship between two people? None of which are you really hear that? so? Push back at what you are responsible for to try to keep that guilt at

00:12:12:09 - 00:12:31:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

bay. and see this instead as an expression of grief. So say that is your spouse saying I wish. Then maybe you're exposed saying, I wish I had a better relationship with the kids. And you're like, knowing, well, you don't make an effort and you've kind of disappeared on them. You fail to show up at critical pieces. I hear now that you stand back, look at all of this and you wish it was different.

00:12:31:07 - 00:12:46:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You wish you're closer. You wish they felt closer to you. yes, you would like me to fix it for you. I can't fix it. That's the truth. I can't fix it. I then can sit with this with you, and feel bad about it. I can sit here and feel grief with you about this, but it isn't mine to fix.

00:12:46:09 - 00:12:52:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That's what I do. I moved to grief instead of guilt yeah, it is really sad. It's sad that this is a state of things.

00:12:52:04 - 00:13:11:11

Lisa Sonni

I don't know if people even realize how profound what you just said is that something just clicked. Even for me right now in this idea that, we always talk about the way we show empathy to this type of person, right? Empathy without obligation is my sort of thing. I can feel bad that you don't have that relationship or that you can't get yourself to the doctor.

00:13:11:12 - 00:13:32:12

Lisa Sonni

I feel bad, but that's where that ends, I feel with you and I'm not going to take any action. But see, this is where I think more guilt can come into play. Is that you could. But what I want to sort of reinforce here is that it's never going to have a good enough outcome, because you facilitating a relationship means that that relationship is never really genuine and authentic.

00:13:32:12 - 00:13:50:06

Lisa Sonni

You making his doctor's appointments means that if you ever, like, get hit by a bus, he doesn't even know who his doctor is. He doesn't even know how to get there. You can't be that. You can't be an adult. They need to be an adult. And the more we enable that, by just letting that be what we do in the relationship where we fill that role.

00:13:50:06 - 00:14:06:12

Lisa Sonni

And I know what I mean. There's a million reasons. It's not just guilt. Sometimes you get punished or there's other negative consequences, but we need to be able to step back. And I almost wonder, it's a little sarcastic. I don't know how well this would work on a narcissist, but sort of like, I have faith that you know how to make your own doctor's appointments.

00:14:06:12 - 00:14:20:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yet while I do something like that similar to that, I say, I trust you're going to work this out. I think that's sort of a good way to say it. It's I think if you. It's really difficult. I trust you'll work this out. And you, it's really it to be. You have to be connected to your empathy in that moment.

00:14:20:04 - 00:14:29:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Like, yeah, I know it's not good, But I also know that you're a smart person and, you know, different angles. And you've I've seen you be resourceful before. You'll be resourceful here.

00:14:29:17 - 00:14:38:21

Lisa Sonni

I'm sure you'll solve this, you know, without the sarcasm, but. And they maybe they like that. And the nurses this blow a little smoke. Right. flatter them a little bit too. gray-rocking

00:14:38:21 - 00:14:50:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

them with. what I did though is it positioned myself as I see the invitation to step in. But I'm not taking the invitation. I'm just it. I see that, but I know you've got it. good. Good at this stuff.

00:14:50:13 - 00:15:07:03

Lisa Sonni

if they directly ask you for something like that. push back and like, I know you can make your own appointment, or I know you can handle that situation. And they push back and say, like, but I need you to do it for me. I would still push back a little bit, like, you don't need me to. Or I would sometimes say like, yeah, yeah, I'll get to that tomorrow.

00:15:07:04 - 00:15:24:06

Lisa Sonni

Knowing that he needed it done today so that the urgency would make him do it himself. Might sound like a little bit of a game, but at least I was winning at the end anyway. In the beginning I wasn't in the beginning I was doing it all. But there came a point like we were already split up and he was still make my appointment and go get my medication

00:15:24:07 - 00:15:38:16

Lisa Sonni

and can you run around and can you do this? And I remember being on the phone with his mother at one point and I was like, you know what? You do it. I'm done with this. I'm sick of running around. And she literally drove to my house 40 minutes away to pick up something and then drive it to him five minutes away.

00:15:38:16 - 00:15:41:02

Lisa Sonni

I was absolutely unwilling at that point.

00:15:41:05 - 00:15:43:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I would say just something like this. No, that's not going to work

00:15:44:03 - 00:15:45:02

Lisa Sonni

nice and direct.

00:15:45:04 - 00:15:52:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Hmmm, that's not gonna work. I mean it well, but why? It's just not. But how come you can do it. No, I'm just it's not going to work.

00:15:52:08 - 00:16:03:23

Lisa Sonni

I was talking to a client today about you and how you tell people to just be a parrot. Just repeat. Just say it again. No, it's not going to work. Why not? It's not. But why? It's not going to work. it's so annoying.

00:16:03:23 - 00:16:22:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

it's effective because a pattern interruption. that's what's happening here. They know there is a pattern way that you two dialog and that normally in the past it would have worked. You did that. you were like, okay, sure. Yeah I'll do that. Right. That's the pattern. So when you just parrot back and don't change it, that's the other key. Don't,

00:16:22:13 - 00:16:23:16

Lisa Sonni

don't change it,

00:16:23:19 - 00:16:43:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

don't change it. Parrot back and hold. interrupted the pattern and they're thrown. And by the third or fourth time They're like, doesn't compute, doesn't compute. And you should follow a system down error message. yeah, I love that. Yeah. That's why it works. it's a pattern interruption. I want to talk another one. And it happened between you and I. It happened last week and it was powerful.

00:16:43:01 - 00:17:02:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I love what you did. And I didn't mean to guilt you, but it was an emotional hook Is that I am hyper independent? I know that I am. I don't know how to ask for help. I can't even see that. I don't know how to ask for help. I can't see it when it's happening. I'm just overwhelmed and so Inadvertently, because of my upbringing and my family background,

00:17:02:16 - 00:17:18:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

what we do is we guilt. We guilt and ask for people to become my readers, to fix the problems for us that we're not fixing. So I did that. I did send a message out and that that was like, please stop overwhelming me. You're overwhelming me. So you should know you're overwhelming me and just stop doing it. And I love what you did.

00:17:18:07 - 00:17:38:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You said, I don't know how to respond to this. There's no real good response to this. that was enough of the pattern interruption for me to say, oh crap, And I was able to say, oh, I'm really sorry. I don't know how I'm struggling to know how. And I'm melting down right now, then suddenly what happened between the group of us? Because we have a company.

00:17:38:16 - 00:17:54:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So the group of us started saying, what if we did this? What if we did this? And I even suddenly start having ideas? What if we did this? And then I started feeling better, but that's another thing is sometimes guilt is used for an individual to say, I don't know what more to do, so I want you to fix it for me.

00:17:54:23 - 00:18:14:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And then we put it out to the person to sort of say, it's your job because I internally can't fix this or I don't see how to fix it now. I think that's where I get really stuck because I feel bad when that happens. I feel bad for the other person. I want to fix it for them. You know, I think if you did that, I would have like, okay, I'll try to mind read for you because I'm just so used to doing that for other people.

00:18:14:06 - 00:18:22:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But I love how you're like, you know what? That's not really mine. I can't get into your head carry, and I can't know when this is going wrong or bad for you. But

00:18:22:03 - 00:18:39:04

Lisa Sonni

if you say it, you can identify it, then you can brainstorm. I feel like in my abusive relationship, it was always like he had a problem and it was immediately like, well, I don't want to own that problem, so I'm just going to put it on her. And then I owned his problems. I owned our problems. I owned my problems.

00:18:39:04 - 00:18:55:19

Lisa Sonni

If he was abusive, that was also my problem and everything was on me. And I was like, okay, well, I'm a good problem solver. And he would reinforce that, right? you're good at solving problems. You're good at stuff like this. You're good with solutions. You mean I'm good with taking on everything and being the person you can just dogpile all the problems onto?

00:18:56:00 - 00:19:10:14

Lisa Sonni

But actually abuse is an unsolvable problem. In the context of staying, I mean, the solution is leaving, but, when someone's repeatedly guilting you and there's a pattern, an ongoing pattern, and you've identified it and you're calling it out and you're recognizing it and they're continuing to do it, that's abuse.

00:19:10:14 - 00:19:35:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

but we get called codependent because we get asked by these individuals to be mind-readers to fix problems, to jump into things that are not our problem. we don't even know that we're doing it. you know, I feel about the word codependent. I hate the word is a fuzzy word. There's no definition for it. But I think it's really unfair that just blame victims for responding to somebody else's output for help because we're wired.

00:19:35:16 - 00:19:56:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Again, think about this from an evolutionary standpoint, the only reason humans live is because we've learned to get ahead of others and to anticipate where they may not survive if we don't intervene. So when someone does this, it's really compelling. The hard part is learning. As we move into adulthood, the other adults need to do this for themselves around everything.

00:19:56:18 - 00:20:17:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Now, will we perfectly get there? No we won't now. people are like, what do you mean? Everything? I mean literally if I have a bad day, it's my job to reassure and soothe myself. If I'm like in last week, overloaded and taking on too much, it's my job to figure out how to reduce that and invite more people to literally take on more things instead of asking them to fix it. For me.

00:20:17:00 - 00:20:37:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

but toxic people will do this work. Back to control. You and I had talked a lot about control. is for them. First of all, they don't want responsibility. They're not going to take responsibility. So it's everybody else's fault and especially yours. But it also is a way for them then not to have to deal with the accountability and responsibility of the things that they don't then do

00:20:37:12 - 00:20:54:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

they don't take care of their health. They don't take care of their relationships. They don't take care of that work relationship. And so then they then look around and say, oh, it's the whole world around me fault that I'm falling apart. And, unfortunately, it takes hard work for us to recognize that this is not our job and we, nor should we take it on.

00:20:54:04 - 00:21:02:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And just because we feel bad. That's back to where I say recognize the feeling bad feeling as grief, not as responsibility. But that's

00:21:02:05 - 00:21:18:20

Lisa Sonni

so important. You know, I don't think we can ever really be like, fully responsible for another human unless they’re dependents literally. And even then, as they get older, like, come on, you know, step it up. When I would make his doctor's appointments, I would then put a calendar invitation and I would keep it in my calendar, in his calendar, so that I knew, he knew.

00:21:18:23 - 00:21:34:09

Lisa Sonni

And if he missed the appointment, which was shockingly regular, it was my job to remind him. And I'm like, but I put it in your calendar. It's not enough. You should have reminded me this morning. You should have made sure I was awake. I'm like, but the appointment was at 3:30 p.m.. What do you mean, awake? But like, no matter what.

00:21:34:09 - 00:21:48:13

Lisa Sonni

So to me, it's like you're wrong. You're going to be wrong. It's a double bind. on purpose to make you feel guilty. Because guilt works. Because it will keep you working for them, and it keeps them from ever having to take exactly what you're talking about. Accountability.

00:21:48:15 - 00:22:05:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So in the podcast for today, and I know we're going to jump over to fan mail first, but a podcast extra let's talk about how to recognize guilt because we often don't recognize it when it's happening. And you and I are both trying to unpack that faster so that we recognize it We can talk about how to break it down and see it better,

00:22:05:16 - 00:22:23:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

but you would be email one of the fan mail questions that we get a lot. is about the podcast extra, and I realized that this is probably my autistic brain that I don't really explain things super, super well, that I should sort of assume it's really natural. So I want to address that question. We create an extra interview that is exclusive.

00:22:23:08 - 00:22:44:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We do never release it publicly. It's only released a couple places. So the way to get a hold of the interview is by either becoming a subscriber on your YouTube channel or my YouTube channel, and then you'll get access to that playlist, or by signing up with a Substack newsletter. And it's embedded in the newsletter, which goes out every week.

00:22:44:17 - 00:23:05:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Now, I know that doesn't make sense to people because like, well, but it's a newsletter. So where is the video? Well, it's inside the newsletter. But in order to answer for that question, Substack has done something really amazing. They're now creating a podcast slash video, way to post them. is being dual posted every week. It's post it individually is just a standalone video.

00:23:05:09 - 00:23:23:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So if you don't want the newsletter, read all the rest. Which I don't know why because we pack it full of great stuff. But if you don't want to find it in the newsletter, you can now go to the separate video that's just posted separately on its own. And I done a third thing. I've also created just a master playlist that's listed in Substack.

00:23:23:09 - 00:23:38:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Here's the playlist of the videos so that you can go and see all of them all in one spot. So there's lots of ways to find it these days. that's what people don't understand is the extra interview is on Substack, and maybe people don't want sub seconds, but it's, another platform was a way to sort of like a I don't know.

00:23:39:00 - 00:23:42:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

How would you describe Substack? Do you know what it is? You have a sense of it.

00:23:42:05 - 00:23:43:16

Lisa Sonni

No, I just roll with it.

00:23:43:18 - 00:24:00:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, it's kind of hard to explain because it's trying to be everything these days, but it used to be just a writing platform where writers would go and write their own letter, but instead of sending it out by their own email, they would send it out through Substack. But these days, it's kind of become a one stop place for people to offer exclusive content.

00:24:00:14 - 00:24:07:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So kind of see it maybe as a slash between a blog website and, Patreon, I think is maybe one way to sort of see it.

00:24:07:22 - 00:24:14:19

Lisa Sonni

Yeah. And so tell me, why should people sign up for the podcast extra? Like, generally speaking, what's the extra what are we offering people?

00:24:14:19 - 00:24:32:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So what you get is you get these exclusive interviews and now there's over 25 of them and we add one every week. So you get interviews with like Doctor Lester. So things that he didn't say in a podcast, You won't hear him. It's things that we've asked him directly alone, on this exclusive interview. It's an exclusive interview that is not public.

00:24:32:05 - 00:24:54:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So you get that. But you also in the newsletter, you get practical tips on how to. I often include questionnaires, things to ask to consider, resources, more resources on the same topics. So if you'd like to go to a deeper dive, you can also find things to look for. Warning signs. I mean all sorts of these really helpful how-to's, but also what to watch out for more sophisticated strategies.

00:24:54:16 - 00:24:59:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Just everything around each of the weekly topics. It's all in this. letter, I

00:24:59:05 - 00:25:08:08

Lisa Sonni

noticed a lot of practical solutions like we end up sort of like, okay, so like, how do you fix this now? Yeah. And I think that's really keys. unpacking a topic. Okay. Now what? Podcast extra.

00:25:08:08 - 00:25:29:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And it's also sometimes I know that we had one just came out last week where we had this interview with Doctor Nadine. Macaluso. but she's the ex-wife of The Wolf of Wall Street. And in that podcast extra we actually asked her about the movie. Now we talk about that in the interview, but we went and said, okay, now let's talk about what that was like to be the feature of this movie.

00:25:29:07 - 00:25:36:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

All right. This is really great. We're going to jump over now a podcast extra and talked about how to recognize guilt.

00:25:36:18 - 00:26:02:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Find me at KerryMcAvoy, PhD. And whether you're in, consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship. Find community support at my toxic free Relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com. And I'll see you back here next week.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

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