Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Constantly second-guessing yourself, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or finding your footing after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join mental health experts Dr. Kerry McAvoy and Lisa Sonni as they uncover the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. From understanding destructive personalities and their manipulative tactics to exploring the stages of abuse and how to rebuild after the damage, you’ll gain the clarity and tools needed to break free and heal.
If you’re ready to reclaim your self-worth and discover the path to emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Why Toxic Relationships Always Leave Us Traumatized and Confused: An Interview with Dr. Peter Salerno
Narcissists know they are being abusive--that they're being manipulative and exploitative.
This week, Dr. Peter Salerno is back to discuss his latest book, Traumatizing Cognitive Dissonance. He discusses with Lisa Sonni why abusive relationships with narcissists leave survivors feeling psychologically battered and confused.
Are you looking for help battling the mental confusion caused by a narcissist? Dr. Salerno gives practical steps to reduce this mental confusion so that mental clarity and peace are possible again in this week's Substack Breaking Free Podcast Extra. Get immediate access to this and other exclusive interviews when you join here: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
To Learn More About Dr. Peter Salerno: Website
For a Copy of Dr. Salerno’s Books: Traumatic Cognitive Dissonance: Healing From An Abusive Relationship With A Disordered Personality
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Kerry McAvoy, PhD
Lisa Sonni
More About Us!
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.
Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships.
Lisa Sonni
Lisa Sonni is a certified Life and Relationship Coach who specializes in trauma bond recovery and abuse education. She helps clients from all walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships. She has published an online self-guided course, The Trauma Bond Recovery Course, and several books, The Trauma Bond Recovery Journal and Surviving to Thriving.
With 7 professional certifications and her own personal experience as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, Lisa has become a popular content creator on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube under the name Stronger Than Before, where she educates people on abuse tactics, narcissism, and domestic violence.
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00:00:04:18 - 00:00:23:12
Lisa Sonni
One of the most agonizing parts about coming out of a narcissistic, abusive relationship is cognitive dissonance. today, I am joined by Doctor Peter Salerno and we're going to talk about traumatic cognitive dissonance.
00:00:23:14 - 00:00:41:07
Lisa Sonni
when I was leaving my own abusive relationship, I was confused to say the least, I was in love, and I kind of hated him. And I thought that he was this broken, poor person, maybe suffering from alcoholism and depression. but I knew that something was wrong and I felt like I couldn't leave and I didn't know it at the time.
00:00:41:07 - 00:00:52:12
Lisa Sonni
But as it turns out, I think that's a perfect description of cognitive dissonance. So can you tell us what is cognitive dissonance? Can you just kind of break it down because I think a lot of people are confused by it. Yeah.
00:00:52:14 - 00:01:18:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, cognitive dissonance originated in like, social learning theory, you know, so before we define traumatic or what I refer to as traumatic cognitive dissonance, just cognitive dissonance in and of itself is, like thinking clash or a tension clash. So, cognitive refers to thinking and dissonance refers to like a clash. So essentially it's an internal clash with one's thought process.
00:01:18:16 - 00:01:33:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
And you can't really land on a particular thought because it's almost like this ping pong effect where you have simultaneous thoughts that are not in alignment and you can't necessarily land on, you know, the truth it's like you're stuck in this, limbo, so to speak,
00:01:33:10 - 00:01:53:09
Lisa Sonni
that's what it felt like. described it once I started to finally understand it. It's you're holding two beliefs, right? And an example that I often use is he is good and he is bad, or she is good and she is bad. he loves me, but he hurts me. He respects me, but he cheats on me, right? Because I learned it in the context of an abusive relationship.
00:01:53:14 - 00:02:10:13
Lisa Sonni
Doctor Kerry has made it make sense, even kind of outside of the context of an abusive relationship, which is what really made it land for me. But I think that the question really, can someone be good and bad? Can someone love you and hurt you repeatedly? does that feel like what you hear from your own clients?
00:02:10:15 - 00:02:30:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
Oh, absolutely. All the time. It's one of the biggest internal conflicts. I think they deal with. And I think the reason why it's such a conflict and it's not something that you can just land on one or the other. NYU keep questioning that. It could potentially be both and how to, you know, negotiate that in your mind is because of the intentionality on the part of like a disordered personality.
00:02:30:06 - 00:03:03:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's very hard for people to wrap their minds around the idea that someone is intentionally manipulating truth rather than manipulating truth as a defense against their own fears or insecurities. This idea that people can intentionally offend and then deny that they're doing that and then keep doing it regardless of the damage that it causes. And then to try to convince you to believe that they're really just reacting to you or it's taking to in this dynamic, that's really what causes the cognitive dissonance. Because you don't know what's true.
00:03:03:17 - 00:03:31:14
Dr. Peter Salerno
You're unable to believe what is true. And then at the same time, you're blaming yourself for not knowing what is true. And I believe that's trauma. I would call that that constant perception of threat in your nervous system. to me that's traumatic. So when we're talking about cognitive dissonance in the sense of somebody is coercing you trying to convince you to question your perception, that I think eventually results in a traumatic experience or cumulative chronic traumatic experiences.
00:03:31:16 - 00:03:48:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that what you said there is actually just so profound. Like people really need to hear that this is intentional. And that's the hardest part. I know as a coach, when I hear constantly from my clients is it's not on purpose though, right? they're not doing it on purpose. They don't know that they're doing this right.
00:03:48:19 - 00:03:59:13
Lisa Sonni
And I think I don't know if the answer is so black and white. They know where they don't know. And I know we want that. We want just a definitive answer. But I think fundamentally, if you were to kind of force me into an answer, it is yes,
00:03:59:13 - 00:04:30:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
I would agree. we have non pathological forms of abuse and then we have pathological forms of abuse. And the difference there is intentionality versus you know, defensiveness. So people can hurt other people because they are extremely, scared and they're defending themselves against something. Right? I mean, we we have reactions when you tell somebody that though, they typically will have if it really came from a defensive place, they will have a willingness and a desire to modify that behavior because they feel guilt and remorse and they take accountability.
00:04:31:01 - 00:04:48:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's non pathological. I think we're all capable of hurting other people in that way, and then learning from it and then changing, the behavior based on the consequences. Not wanting to be repeated. A pathological personality, they don't see the problem with it in the first place. So they don't have any intention of changing it. And so it's very intentional.
00:04:48:21 - 00:05:07:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
I think sometimes it's conscious and deliberate. Other times it's just habitual based on their pattern of behavior. but the outcome is the same. and then trying to question them or get them to reason with you or collaborate with you is it's a losing battle. And what they're going to do is externalize the blame, which further puts you in this, dissonant state
00:05:07:17 - 00:05:27:11
Lisa Sonni
there. So convincing. Oh, yeah. They're so convincing. I know, you know, in any relationship I've been in, toxic or otherwise, I have never been more convinced that I was the problem than I was in this abusive relationship. And it was so strange to me because it was like I knew that I wasn't the problem. But I always wondered maybe I'm wrong. was actually more self-doubt.
00:05:27:11 - 00:05:45:16
Lisa Sonni
I was never convinced. I have many clients who are absolutely. I'm the problem. It's me. But I never landed on me being the problem. I lived in this constant state of maybe it is, but I don't think it is. It seems so obvious. But is it? And I had no idea. Like the name and learning what cognitive dissonance was was massive to me.
00:05:45:21 - 00:06:00:14
Lisa Sonni
Now you have a cognitive dissonance. And you've coined this term traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is also the name of your new book, which is phenomenal, by the way. Tell me why you felt like it needed that extra word. Like What is it that felt different to you that that makes this worse?
00:06:00:16 - 00:06:19:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
So I think a lot of people that I work with have this tendency to dismiss or minimize the impact that these relationships have had on them, or they try to justify it because a lot of the dissonance is a result of covert manipulation, not necessarily physical abuse, domestic violence where there's visible bruises on your skin and there's evidence of abuse.
00:06:20:02 - 00:06:45:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
people have a hard time putting themselves in the category of an abuse victim or survivor when it's manipulation. Right. and so I believe that the research has actually shown verbal and emotional manipulation and aggression, whether it's overt or covert, is just as damaging to the brain and nervous system and can cause just as much physical illness and pain as physical abuse.
00:06:45:20 - 00:07:05:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
I mean, research has proven that now So I think it's very important for people to understand that even if someone hasn't ever laid a hand on you, they could be doing significant damage to your psyche, to your core belief system, to your nervous system, to your body. Without any physical evidence of it. And I would say that's trauma.
00:07:06:00 - 00:07:31:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
And I want to empower people to feel comfortable saying this was something that was traumatic for me, even though we typically oftentimes attribute abuse to what happened to us physically. I mean, people are losing their minds temporarily trying to figure out what's going on with them, which maybe you can attest to from your own experiences. I know I can, and it just it's crazy making and I believe that there is a traumatic impact.
00:07:31:07 - 00:07:45:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
So I felt it very important to add that term to the title of my book and just to this whole perspective of covert manipulation and coercive control and just outright denial of responsibility from these very abusive, harmful individuals.
00:07:45:03 - 00:07:54:20
Lisa Sonni
tell me how, people who are experiencing traumatic cognitive dissonance. Can you kind of relate that to PTSD or C-PTSD? what are the symptoms? Do they mirror each other?
00:07:54:21 - 00:08:20:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
so. When we're talking about, PTSD and complex PTSD, essentially the main component of that is the stress component. So we have experiences. And then there's chronic stress in our nervous system which leads to chronic perception of threats. So we're constantly feeling unsafe. Right. that kind of sums up post-traumatic stress. And what's interesting is there's pretty predictable symptoms of that.
00:08:20:08 - 00:08:43:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
Right? I mean, you have like hypervigilance. you know, you could feel extremely irritable. Sometimes there's dissociation, sometimes there's, you know, flashbacks and nightmares. These things are fairly predictable because we kind of know how that works. But you can get PTSD from something that's non personal, something that has nothing to do with a relationship. You can get it from a car accident, you can experience it after a natural disaster. And it's not personal.
00:08:43:20 - 00:09:09:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
But those symptoms are pretty typical When we talk about traumatic cognitive dissonance or complex trauma, too, we're talking about atypical symptoms. So they're not necessarily like these checklist symptoms that everybody has. Some of them are very unique to the individual because depending on how you were manipulated, what you were kind of coerced into believing, what kind of false beliefs were implanted by the abusive person, which can absolutely happen.
00:09:09:02 - 00:09:30:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
You can implant false memories into someone. You can implant false beliefs into someone, and then their operating system takes these as the truth. and you can literally change someone's perception through manipulation. So I would say that when we're, moving more into like complex PTSD and then this cognitive dissonance, we're kind of moving out of the more typical symptoms.
00:09:30:09 - 00:09:36:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
And there are some pretty unique indicators that are just a different for those who've experienced this.
00:09:37:03 - 00:09:37:18
Lisa Sonni
What are those?
00:09:37:19 - 00:09:56:19
Dr. Peter Salerno
one of them is this kind of perpetual ambiguity of just, again, not being able to land on something if a abusive person can keep you in a state of ambiguity, they can control you. It's the uncertainty in the not knowing that is how they control you. Because you're constantly battling with trying to land on something and then doubting yourself again.
00:09:57:00 - 00:10:17:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
And as long as you doubt yourself, you might be willing to continue trying to, you know, try to work the relationship out so that ambiguity is actually a factor. it's something that they produce through being dramatic. Now, when we talk about the maneuvering of the drama triangle persecutor, rescuer, victim and they will maneuver positions and that to kind of force you to adopt another role in that.
00:10:18:03 - 00:10:21:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
And that's all intentional. And that keeps you in a state of ambiguity.
00:10:21:13 - 00:10:41:02
Lisa Sonni
It helps them. You know, I once, interviewed Mental Healness who's a self-aware narcissist. And I asked him about this confusion. Right. Deep, generally speaking. Right. He's speaking for himself. But did you know that you were keeping someone confused and did that benefit you? And he was like, absolutely. Yeah. It's that's the whole point. It's hot and cold. I love you, I hate you.
00:10:41:02 - 00:11:02:18
Lisa Sonni
that feeling. And he knew that it was creating sort of dependency. He didn't know what a trauma bond was when he was doing it. But it just he knew it was work and confusion worked for him and benefited him. And I thought that was really interesting to hear them essentially admit it out loud, because that's the reinforcement. If you have a clinician telling you that it's on purpose and you have an abuser ex abuser telling you that it's on purpose,
00:11:02:21 - 00:11:19:10
Lisa Sonni
yeah. And I love that perspective. You know, so I think that what we need as survivors of this is to really realize that the confusion itself is a problem, right? If you can't figure out what's going on in your relationship, just sit with that. Even the fact that you can't figure it out is the problem.
00:11:19:12 - 00:11:29:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
Absolutely. Yeah. And they bank on that. That's what works for them. As you said, that's very well put. As long as they can keep you in a state of confusion, they pretty much are controlling the situation.
00:11:29:10 - 00:11:49:18
Lisa Sonni
You know, you keep trying to explain, you know, it's something I've said a lot to people is that when you're confused or when they pretend they don't get it. I don't understand why you're mad at me for doing this. Like, what's the problem? I think there's a part of it that yes, they don't see themselves as a problem, but I think they see the behavior as problematic because if you did it to them all, hell would break up.
00:11:49:20 - 00:12:07:06
Lisa Sonni
You recognize the behavior. They just don't care that it's them inflicting it upon you. Yeah, when you try to explain. But this is why this is wrong. This is why this hurt me. This is you. Keep trying to explain it. They're playing dumb so that you try to continue. It shows them that you're still emotionally invested. And they love
00:12:07:06 - 00:12:29:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
that. Yes, absolutely. As long as they can, hook you into their drama in some way. And playing dumb, playing aloof is one of their primary, ways of truth manipulation. You know, it's a form of lying is just kind of acting like, well, well, I don't remember saying that or doing that, or I think you took it out of context or, well, you've done this to like, everybody lies, or, you know, you're exaggerating, you're too sensitive.
00:12:29:13 - 00:12:54:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
Like, I'm not the only one who said that. You're sensitive, you know? Yes. They just planting seeds of doubt constantly and justifying their behavior. I believe that they know the difference between right and wrong in the sense of experientially, they've had consequences to certain behaviors. So they can categorize things as like, right and wrong. But how ineffective their conscience is plays a part in how much they feel, whether that is right or wrong.
00:12:54:11 - 00:13:14:19
Dr. Peter Salerno
So they typically have impaired conscience, lack of conscience, ineffective conscience. When the going gets tough, it's like it's them and and them only. And so they don't actually believe that they're a bad person or that they're treating you badly. They can maybe have this cognitive understanding of, like, when I do this, people don't react very favorably to it.
00:13:14:21 - 00:13:31:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
But it's not like this internal conflict in them where they think, oh, I really hurt this person. And that's what's scary, is they're not interested in whether or not they've hurt you. your experience in your emotional life are not even interesting to them. It doesn't matter like, for them to become invested in that.
00:13:31:09 - 00:13:59:01
Lisa Sonni
And whew, that's awful. Yeah. That happened. That's really awful. You know, a lot of people hear this and hear things like this and it's sort of like, but why? And, catchall but they're disordered is sort of answer to it. But, if they can recognize that there's a negative reaction from people, and maybe what's even say they can recognize that that's wrong in that context, the fact that they can't sort of emotionally connect with that is the reason that they're just going to continue.
00:13:59:03 - 00:14:00:02
Lisa Sonni
They don't care.
00:14:00:04 - 00:14:19:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
When we're talking about personality disorders, they don't really learn from experience. Right. So there's not this internal brake pedal that kind of they hit the brakes and they go, okay, this isn't working for me anymore. This is causing a lot of conflict. I should probably modify it a lot of their traits they're referred to as egosyntonic.
00:14:19:10 - 00:14:37:04
Dr. Peter Salerno
And what that means is the way they are in the world and the way they perceive things is very natural to them and doesn't feel foreign to them. It doesn't feel like an affliction that they need to get rid of. So they're not monitoring it, self-correcting it, or seeing it as problematic. It's only a problem when you make it a problem.
00:14:37:07 - 00:14:59:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's how they see it. My behavior is fine until you confront me on it and say that you have a problem, and then in their mind they think, well, then you're the one creating the problem, you know? So it's kind of bizarre. It's not delusional, but it's definitely a distortion of reality. they know that they're doing this. It's not necessarily that they're delusional, but they're not losing touch with reality.
00:14:59:02 - 00:15:00:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
They're very sane.
00:15:00:04 - 00:15:23:01
Lisa Sonni
Right. Well, people call them delusional all the time. And I know I've always sort of thought, like, I don't I get why we say that sort of maybe just, a term, but it is being misused. They're not deluded. I think that's important. It's, Yeah, they're not delusional. They are sane. They fundamentally know that it's wrong. So I had a conversation with, Chuck Derry last week who, runs the Gender Violence Institute, and, well, he's retired now,
00:15:23:01 - 00:15:42:22
Lisa Sonni
but he talked about consequences, and he actually wasn't talking about pathological people, but abusive men in general, specifically men, in his case. But yeah, consequences really was a big thing here. And I'm hearing this kind of mirrored here is that the consequences are how to get them to stop. But when you're in this relationship, it's not necessarily safe to set certain consequences.
00:15:43:00 - 00:15:53:03
Lisa Sonni
I think the best consequences to leave, not to make that sound easy. In your opinion, how do people who maybe are still stuck in cognitive dissonance try to sort of see like this is on purpose
00:15:53:03 - 00:16:12:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
and. that's such a tough question to answer because I'm trying to effect some change in the realm of when you go and see a professional the professionals not willing to, understand that some people do have bad intentions, you know. To answer your question, I think you need to find the right support. I don't think that this is something that you can do just completely on your own.
00:16:12:06 - 00:16:41:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
I think, you know, there's resources, including my new book that I think help you get on the right path, but it's not a cure all just to read a book. I mean, obviously, People need to validate you. You need to feel, heard and seen and supported in the right way. Sadly, a lot of the people that I work with, I'm like their fourth or fifth professional because they've just been consistently invalidated by professionals telling them, well, you know, this is your codependency or your attachment style or your upbringing that's intruding on this relationship.
00:16:41:12 - 00:16:54:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so we'll take care of those things. And then the relationship will improve, or we'll do couples counseling, and get you guys on the same page, which can be very dangerous and make things much worse for people when there's a disordered personality. I
00:16:54:05 - 00:17:18:08
Lisa Sonni
I’m a huge, huge advocate for never doing couples counseling in an abusive relationship because you don't know as the person in the relationship if the person is pathological or not. And fundamentally, even if they're not, the belief system is sort of present there that they are entitled to behave this way. So, right. Couples counseling I know, can be very invalidating, but there's a lot of therapists, that don't know what a trauma bond is that don't know.
00:17:18:12 - 00:17:34:14
Lisa Sonni
And I hope they know what cognitive dissonance is, but perhaps not in this context. And what makes this so hard, which, again, is why I love that you've coined this term. I hope it really becomes widespread and people understand that it's I mean, I use the word worse like a, it's more traumatic, obviously.
00:17:34:18 - 00:18:00:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
And I mean, in defense of therapists, you know, they're trained the way they're trained by who they're trained by. And so we're taught in our majority of the degree programs, we're taught that you pretty much assume collaboration when a client comes to see you. And when a couple comes to see you and you give them unconditional positive regard, and there's this underlying belief that everybody is basically good and they want what's best for other people.
00:18:00:09 - 00:18:30:01
Dr. Peter Salerno
And if they don't, it's because something ruptured in their development that made them defensive and self-protective. I'm sorry if people believe that because it's dangerous to think that now, because now we have research that has proven, you know, it's irrefutable research, it's undeniable. There are certain brains that are wired in certain ways that cause harm intentionally because they perceive that they will have some sort of personal advantage or gain if they go about life that way.
00:18:30:03 - 00:18:47:23
Dr. Peter Salerno
And it's not from anything that happened to them. And this is one of the biggest things you asked earlier, like, how do we get people to clear the dissonance? Believing that is possible is a good first step. And that takes a lot of mental work to change your perspective on humanity. Essentially.
00:18:48:05 - 00:19:08:03
Lisa Sonni
So the worldview that I think I felt is that and I see this a lot with, with clients too, is that the world is fundamentally good. I know that there's bad people in the world, but nobody's, really targeting people this way. People don't operate from a place of, being completely self-serving or abusive, and they're not trying to manipulate.
00:19:08:03 - 00:19:31:02
Lisa Sonni
Yes, people can do it, but it comes from something. And the biggest rock of my world has been that that is absolutely, unequivocally not true. And some people are just out there operating in a completely different way. I find that someone who's narcissistic, their worldview to me seems very black and white, like people are out to get you. And I need to be out for myself because everybody is this way.
00:19:31:06 - 00:19:33:04
Lisa Sonni
Am I wrong, am I right?
00:19:33:04 - 00:19:54:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
No. You're right. Personality disorders, specifically the cluster B personality disorders, they operate with this dichotomous thinking. This all or nothing black or white thinking. So that's one of the reasons why these and relationships are also so intense and extreme is because there really is no gray area in the interpersonal relating. It's either you're the best thing that ever happened to them, or you're the worst thing and they're going to treat you accordingly.
00:19:54:21 - 00:20:19:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
if you're currently in their good graces, they're going to, shower you with affection and intensity, not necessarily authentic intimacy, but an intensity that feels very good. It feels like a high. And then when you fall off the pedestal, which they decide when that happens, then they will devalue and demean you and be very vindictive about it and feel justified in doing it because you let them down, you disappointed them and nowhere in between.
00:20:19:03 - 00:20:25:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's all or nothing. That's one of the biggest problems is this dichotomous thinking process in these individuals.
00:20:26:03 - 00:20:51:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that I guess cognitive distortion. That's it's you're good or you're bad and it's so, in such contrast, I think to my experience as a survivor of this is that he was good and bad for him. I think he looked at me like I was good or bad, given the circumstance that I was holding both beliefs, which was just I honestly say to people that to me, my subjective opinion, there was nothing harder for me than coming to terms with that.
00:20:51:06 - 00:21:09:09
Lisa Sonni
He did this on purpose that he knew the amount of. And I hate to say this, I'm talking about myself. I speak for myself, but it was like I was making excuses for him the entire time. It must be his upbringing. It must be his parents. It must be, depression, alcoholism, all these things instead of just like, no, he knows what he's doing
00:21:09:13 - 00:21:15:23
Lisa Sonni
now tell me why you think people do that. What am I trying to accomplish in my own brain?
00:21:16:02 - 00:21:39:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, I think part of that's we're socially conditioned to believe that, you know, we've been educated and indoctrinated with this notion that nobody's doing these things intentionally. We're all the same on the inside. Again, some developmental ruptures or attachment ruptures or severe trauma can turn someone who's been abused into an abuser. The research actually shows that that is categorically untrue.
00:21:39:19 - 00:22:02:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
the vast majority of people who've been abused do not grow up to become abusers. The ones who do would have anyway because of their wiring, essentially. I mean, this to me is like. It's this foundational understanding of, human nature and behavior that we have to force ourselves to, keep an open mind about or to challenge. So I don't think it's necessarily that there's something wrong with people when they think that.
00:22:02:05 - 00:22:23:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
I think it makes perfect sense why most people do think no one would ever do these things on purpose. There's no way that someone could intentionally do these things. So the right knowledge, I think, is going to be very liberating. not just speculating about this, but what is the research actually show? Like, is there any like hard data on this idea that some people have these behavioral patterns because they're predisposed to have them?
00:22:23:15 - 00:22:40:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
Some people have no remorse, no guilt, no shame about these behaviors, not because something happened to them, but because it just wasn't there to begin with. those are hard concepts to wrap your mind around, especially when you're a good person. Because you don't want to believe those things. you said earlier. That's awful. It's awful to think that. It's awful to know that
00:22:40:15 - 00:23:01:08
Lisa Sonni
I feel, like a sense of helplessness almost in talking about this. Like, so how do you help them? I get that comment a lot on my socials. Right. Like, so you're telling me that they just they know what they're doing. They do it on purpose. So how do we help them? And my answer will remain the same. I speak for my my own when I say we like coaches in particular. We don't survivors we don't.
00:23:01:08 - 00:23:11:05
Lisa Sonni
That is not our job. That is the job of a therapist who chooses to specialize in helping people with personality disorders. But even then, let's be clear there's no cure.
00:23:11:09 - 00:23:30:04
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. So depending on who you ask, I actually have heard some professionals say that they have cured some moderate narcissists. I don't know what cure means or what moderate means in their eyes, but I've heard that said before, when we talk about cluster B personalities, there is some research that shows we talk about the antisocial or the psychopath.
00:23:30:04 - 00:23:59:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
They are not treatable. one of the reasons incarceration exists is because of psychopaths exists, period. They don't rehabilitate, they don't learn from experience. those ones are considered basically untreatable and dangerous if you try to treat them narcissists, borderline personalities and histrionic personalities, depending on the severity of the deficiency. Let's say some professionals have reported if they are collaborative enough and they stick in treatment enough, some can be helped,
00:23:59:13 - 00:24:27:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
the ones that we're talking about probably don't fall into the can't I mean, if you're experiencing traumatic cognitive dissonance, probably not talking about one who has collaborative capacity problems solving capacity, self-correction, self monitoring, maybe there are some, but you're probably not going to be experiencing this level of trauma from those ones. You know, they might have some traits in their personality that are very problematic and causing a lot of problems, but maybe they're not to the degree of abuse like severe abuse and manipulation.
00:24:27:17 - 00:24:38:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
I think the ones who are capable of inflicting you with something like traumatic cognitive dissonance are probably the ones that are not really going to be repaired or treated in any meaningful way.
00:24:38:20 - 00:25:03:04
Lisa Sonni
That is profoundly sad. But I think, my advice to anyone is save yourself, right? Take all that energy. And when what we want is to help them and help yourself really focus inward. Thank you so much for this conversation. Doctor and I are going to jump over into our podcast extra to really kind of dig a little bit deeper into how we can resolve this and some of the steps are to get yourself out of cognitive dissonance.
00:25:03:04 - 00:25:04:02
Lisa Sonni
But thank you so much.
00:25:04:08 - 00:25:07:01
Dr. Peter Salerno
Thank you for having me.
00:25:07:03 - 00:25:32:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? Finally, at Kerry McEvoy Food and whether you're in, consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship. I'm community support at my toxic free relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at Kerry McEvoy Ft.com. And I'll see you back here next week.
