Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Constantly second-guessing yourself, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or finding your footing after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join mental health experts Dr. Kerry McAvoy and Lisa Sonni as they uncover the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. From understanding destructive personalities and their manipulative tactics to exploring the stages of abuse and how to rebuild after the damage, you’ll gain the clarity and tools needed to break free and heal.
If you’re ready to reclaim your self-worth and discover the path to emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
When the Narcissist Says They Love You: Are They Lying?
Narcissists often claim to love us. That they want the save the relationship; but do they?
In this episode, Dr. Kerry and Lisa Sonni discuss the confusing dynamic of narcissistic partners claiming to be changing and addressing the relationship issues, only aren’t. Learn how survivors can tell the difference between genuine effort from sophisticated manipulation.
Is it tricky to distinguish real from fake love? Be sure to check out this week’s podcast extra on how to spot someone lying about their intentions. Get immediate access to this exclusive content when you subscribe here: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
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Stay in Touch with Us!
Kerry McAvoy, PhD
Lisa Sonni
More About Us!
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.
Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.
Lisa Sonni
Lisa Sonni is a certified Life & Relationship Coach, specializing in trauma bond recovery and abuse education, who helps clients from all walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships. She has published an online self-guided course, The Trauma Bond Recovery Course, and several books, The Trauma Bond Recovery Journal, and Surviving to Thriving: A Six-Step Blueprint to Narcissistic Abuse Healing and Recovery.
With 7 professional certifications and her own personal experience as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, her expertise is geared towards getting clients to a good space in their lives and within themselves. Lisa has two children and enjoys cooking, reading, and walks. She is a popular content creator on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube under the name Stronger Than Before with over 1M followers, where she educates people on abuse tactics, narcissism and domestic violence. She has helped thousands of women exit and rebuild their lives.
Wedding Wednesday PodWe're spilling ALL the tea on wedding drama, horror stories & the craziness of planning!
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00:00:04:03 - 00:00:23:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
When the narcissist begs you to stay and claims they have never loved you more as the relationship is failing, is that real love? That's the question Lisa and I tackled today in this episode of Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse.
00:00:23:06 - 00:00:41:19
Lisa Sonni
When I was coming out of my abusive relationship. The thing that just made me absolutely crazy was that he was telling me to leave, and he was telling me that if I left him, I was weak. He was guilting me, make me feel like I was abandoning him, abandoning our family, and that he loved me. But also he was awful and I never could understand if he meant it.
00:00:42:00 - 00:01:03:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
This is such a common story, Lisa. It's not my experience. It's not what happened to me. But I can't tell you the number of times I have people tell me is the relationships breaking up, that they have a sobbing spouse on the floor clutching their ankles, begging them not to walk out, and then promising they'll work hard, then showing up and doing all the things that just this week, someone was telling me is her ex.
00:01:03:07 - 00:01:11:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
well, soon to be ex is giving her everything she's ever asked for in this relationship and she feels loved. Did you feel loved by that when that started happening?
00:01:12:01 - 00:01:30:11
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. Because he was chasing me, pursuing me. It felt like, oh, see, he doesn't want this to end, even though he's telling me he does. Some of his actions didn't match. And I know that flip flops right. Sometimes their words, are what sound good and their actions don't. And sometimes their actions sound good in their words, don't they? Just left to keep you so confused? But you can't make sense of it.
00:01:30:11 - 00:01:36:20
Lisa Sonni
So was trying to make sense of does he love me? Is this what this is? Is is he traumatized? Is he going through something? What is this?
00:01:36:22 - 00:01:53:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And the part that I get really super worried about is that we tell people we get the advice of, Don't watch what they say, but watch what they do. And this is one of the periods of time when what they say and what they're doing matches. It's not inconsistent the other times in the earlier part of the relationship, there is an inconsistency.
00:01:53:16 - 00:02:11:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
They'll say, I love you and then they're cheating on you or I love you, and then they're spending money on things you know that you would never approved or betraying you in other ways. This is a period of time where the actions and what's being said actually lines up. I'm and maybe I did have phase of it, but it didn't look quite like what you just described.
00:02:11:19 - 00:02:29:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Mine was more I'm trying to change, I'm going to therapy. I'm doing all this hard work coming home and talking about therapy, waking up in the morning and having him in a chair across the room, reading books, showing me the underlining of the book, reading it aloud, processing how he felt about what he read. I mean, that looks like change, right?
00:02:29:09 - 00:02:51:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
That looks like somebody who's doing a lot of hard work. So I thought, oh, okay, he's saying he wants to change. He says he wants this to work. he's doing work. Is he working? And yeah, it does really feel compelling. And it is what I wanted. And that was super hard because I don't know how it was for you, but that was a stage in my relationship in which people already knew a lot of bad stuff had happened, and they wanted me out.
00:02:51:13 - 00:03:08:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I mean, I had a lot of people invested in me leaving, and I felt bad. I felt like a weak person for not leaving, but this made me feel so confused and feel loved and feel pursued. Like you just said that I got super confused and I doubled down and start believing harder. And I say it did work for me.
00:03:08:16 - 00:03:10:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I got him another year.
00:03:10:01 - 00:03:25:12
Lisa Sonni
I wanted to be loved. And I think like, hello, basic thing that we all want, right, is we want to be loved and we want to be loved by the person that we love. And that says that they love us. Mine pretended to do therapy. And I remember he would say that he was meeting with a therapist in the long and short of it.
00:03:25:12 - 00:03:41:15
Lisa Sonni
As it turned out, it was like a friend's boyfriend was a therapist, and they used to party together. And it has nothing to do with therapy. And I caught him because he said something about doing therapy on a Saturday night at 8:00. And I was like, what? I don't know, a single therapist that works at that hour. And I realized he was partying.
00:03:41:15 - 00:03:49:06
Lisa Sonni
It wasn't. He just happened to be a therapist, but in proximity. Yeah, I know a therapist. That's the same as being in therapy, isn't it? I've met one.
00:03:49:06 - 00:03:50:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
To a narcissist it is, yeah [laughs]
00:03:50:09 - 00:04:08:10
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, right. Yeah. That's the narcissistic truth of it all. But I believed for a while that he was trying to change. You know, he told me that he was diagnosed with depression, which, to be fair, may or may not be true. But he was telling me that he was moving forward and telling me that he loved me and telling me the plan.
00:04:08:12 - 00:04:21:04
Lisa Sonni
And the plan was we were going to spend some time apart, and then we were going to get back together, and this is what it was going to look like and what he was going to do in the meantime, and what I was going to do in the meantime. And it seemed at some point like we were moving along.
00:04:21:10 - 00:04:38:15
Lisa Sonni
But I think for me it was this. But he loves me and he wouldn't hurt me. He loves me deep down, I know. And all of this, aggression and anger. didn't use the word abuse, but I'll call it abuse. Now. I rationalized it as from trauma and it's a reaction to or it's his attachment or he had reasons
00:04:38:15 - 00:04:45:16
Lisa Sonni
I was giving him all these reasons because I felt like he loved me. And I was in disbelief that anything else could be true.
00:04:45:18 - 00:05:19:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I was really confused too. In fact, it. I got a new computer, so I've been putting on the applications and uploading connections to Drive so that the applications are connected to the right back ups. And one of them was, I forgot about this. I forgot this had happened, that as we were trying to so-called repair this relationship, I got the brilliant idea of why don't we quit working and take a year and travel around Mexico and see all these really fantastic places that we'd stay a month in different locations for a year, and it actually set them up, made reservations, and started putting in all the details of where we're going to, know, see the mountains in
00:05:19:18 - 00:05:42:12
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
this area, and then we're going to go over the coastline here, and we're going to go down where they have looms and make, rugs and where he was born and do all this really fantastic trip and see all of Mexico. That was the plan. And while I was doing all this work, and he's invested in it too, I kept thinking I could feel that uneasiness, like, what am I going to do with this man who has nothing to do with his time, who does bad things with his time
00:05:42:16 - 00:06:02:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
and I have to keep entertaining him, but I keep hoping that he'll fall more in love with me. And this Get fixed because the here's the sad part of my first marriage is that when I married Brad, we were both 21, and both came out of unstable home situations. And he was selfish. And he preferred to be with the guys and to be with me.
00:06:02:14 - 00:06:16:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But over time, he stopped. He became friends with me and then drew really close to me so that by the end he and I were best friends. He would tell you that I was his best friend, and I was the one person in the world he knew really had his back. and I would say the same about him.
00:06:16:01 - 00:06:35:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And so I saw that transition that happened. And I really believed it could happen here, or at least I wanted to believe. I hoped that it could happen. It happened before. I've seen other people draw closer so I could feel, as I'm making this plan to see all of Mexico, that it was kind of a pipe dream. I felt that this was sort of pie in the sky.
00:06:35:20 - 00:06:59:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Not realistic, not we're not 21 years old. I'm talking nearly a 50 year old who's has a lifestyle of duplicity, and I'm trying to hope this man's going to somehow commit to me. And yet we're painting it together. It was crazy. Of course I had to cancel it. All his things started crumbling and falling apart, But I see this happen over and over and it's very painful for me to tell clients when they share this with us,
00:06:59:18 - 00:07:13:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
you know, whether it's in the Toxic Relationship Club that comes up a frequently as a live question is they want to know, this, does this person love me? How do I know what love is? so what do you say when you get asked that question? How do you know Lisa, what love is? funny,
00:07:13:11 - 00:07:34:14
Lisa Sonni
I'm thinking of a quote and I can't even remember who said it. it's in a book somewhere. But if we were all working off the same definition of love, it would be a lot easier, right? But I think the key here is what is love to you? And what does love feel like to you? And I know because you know, maybe the answer is even love feels like, happiness and contentment and peace and joy and laughing with someone
00:07:34:14 - 00:07:57:14
Lisa Sonni
and Sunday mornings and whatever you want to talk about trips through Mexico and you have those things in your relationship. So you're like, see, that's love. okay, but what doesn't love feel like? And then you can start describing all of the abusive ness. And can can those two things coexist? now love isn't perfect. And love might not be the most completely stable thing, but I will tell you that love is not I love you, I hate you,
00:07:57:14 - 00:08:17:05
Lisa Sonni
Push, pull. Hot and cold constantly. Love is not sweeping, mood swings and walking on eggshells. none of that is love. And I think objective. I knew that the whole time. And I think objectively, most of my clients know that as well. Yeah, but it's the confusion. I think the cognitive dissonance is the biggest driver of not being able to tell.
00:08:17:10 - 00:08:26:20
Lisa Sonni
But when you ask somebody to push back on, like, what is your definition of love and what does it feel like to you? Because I think we all have different experiences that would make us answer that question a bit differently.
00:08:27:00 - 00:08:48:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I go to a biblical definition of which I really appreciate out of First Corinthians 13, because I do think you and I would actually agree on it. It describes love as patient, kind, doesn't hold grudges. You it's a person who's appropriately sacrificial, know, respectful. those are the kind of qualities that ask myself is there a reciprocity in the kind of patience I'm giving to this person, or
00:08:48:04 - 00:09:08:12
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
are they giving you that kind of patience back to me? do I respect what they say, and do I respect their emotional states? Do I respect their needs, or are they offering that kind of respect back to me? Do they allow me to be in various emotional, states? Am shutting down or shifting or shunting something within me to make myself not bother them and not upset them?
00:09:08:18 - 00:09:26:12
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Am I able to of show up freely is me. Those are the things I start to ask people to ask themselves. And I have to ask myself and, you know, be honest in a period of time while I'm painting this beautiful picture of a year of traveling Mexico. And doesn't that sound lovely? Let's travel Mexico for a year and stay a month in these different exotic locations.
00:09:26:12 - 00:09:46:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Was he patient with me? No, I mean, still course coercive control is happening. He was still watching TV till 3 a.m. in the morning, and then setting the alarm at 6 a.m. in the morning. when I got upset or heard about something? did he create space for that for me? No. I was the rage still happening on the road where I was literally having to look at my phone because otherwise I was afraid for my life,
00:09:46:05 - 00:10:06:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
He was like tailgating people and stopping in front of people and pissing them off. Yeah, he was still doing that. So there was still all of this chaos, all of this drama and fear in my life. So no, there wasn't that kind of sense activity that would have said, yes, he's giving this back to you. listen, this is a person who betrayed you multiple times, not once,
00:10:06:12 - 00:10:23:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
not just because it was a fluke. it was a way of life for him, and he still does not allow you to have any reaction to that. You have been completely blank about what you've survived. That's not love. That's I'm sitting into a box so that I don't upset this person.
00:10:23:00 - 00:10:54:03
Lisa Sonni
And that's the worst part. Like, you feel like you have to be something in order to earn that love. But simultaneously I have a lot of clients that say they've never felt more loved during that time where he's left or you've left and he's begging you back because it's these big sweeping gestures. I think it's kind of maybe reminiscent of the beginning of the relationship, when you did really feel so loved, but, there's this belief that there's an epiphany that happens when you leave, and then they finally realize what they had the whole time. And you just needed to show them that you were serious.
00:10:54:08 - 00:11:13:11
Lisa Sonni
And so it ends, and they want you back you're getting the promises and the therapy that you asked for and the anger management that you asked for. And often we tell them you need to do A, B, C, and then they do those things, and then you don't feel like those things are authentic or you feel like, you're questioning, is this really are you really getting something out of this?
00:11:13:11 - 00:11:29:04
Lisa Sonni
Are you really changing? And they get mad and say, like, I'm doing the things, you know, nothing I ever do is good enough for you. Then you feel guilty. This is just the same old story, but how can you tell if it's authentic when you are so blinded by the fact that you feel so loved by this chase?
00:11:29:06 - 00:11:47:12
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, and we want that love and we deserve that love and that is not a weakness. And I get angry with anybody that wants to say that it is because complete independence is a form of hyper independence it is, alienation from others. tell me any research that says that that's healthy. There is nothing that says alienation and isolation.
00:11:47:12 - 00:12:02:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It's healthy. So it's ridiculous to say, well, if you just don't need them, then you are a healthy person. So we need that interconnectedness. But you know, the best advice I think came from and it was from you talk about him a lot and that's Mental Healness, Lee Hammock. he said this a couple of years ago and I love it.
00:12:03:01 - 00:12:22:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I urge people to try this. Sometimes I say, you know, what's wrong with this relationship? You know, all the things that are driving you nuts, that make you feel like this person doesn't love you. Now, I urge people to turn them into operable, you know, a definable things, meaning measurable things. So don't just say I hate it when he gets cross with me.
00:12:22:06 - 00:12:46:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Instead, say I don't want him calling me names, or I don't want him walking out of the room and ending conversations just abruptly. You have to make so that somebody watching could say yes, this person's failing or succeeding at whatever the task is, but make a list of them and then say to this individual, I have a list of items that has to change in this relationship for me to continue with this, but I know that you say you're invested, and I believe that you right now, I believe that you're invested.
00:12:46:22 - 00:13:02:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So I'm going to tell you a couple of them, but I'm also not going to tell you a couple other ones, and they all have to change for me to know that this relationship is serious. And by the way, these things can be changed, if you're serious, because this is what people do in a healthy relationship, and you have to be sure that they're realistic.
00:13:02:19 - 00:13:17:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I would make sure to talk to a coach or a therapist or a good friend to make sure your list is an unreasonable, and then set a time limit and make it a while. Don't make it a month from now or two weeks from now. Make it like three months. Six months. I would prefer honestly, six months a while
00:13:17:19 - 00:13:25:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
one of the, known items that you can tell this individual is if you pressed me for the unknown items, that's an automatic fail.
00:13:25:07 - 00:13:26:17
Lisa Sonni
Yep, I totally agree.
00:13:26:22 - 00:13:42:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
and then leave that out there and then six months. It's almost like you put it in the cookie jar and you leave it alone. And then at six months you open it. You look at that list and said, are these things changed? you know, do they love you? What is going on with this drama? All of this I want you, I'm working for you.
00:13:42:11 - 00:13:58:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I've never wanted this more. I'm willing to change stuff. What it really is it isn't about the loss of us. The loss of you, the loss of me as much as we want it to be. And man, what I love it to be that. a healthy relationship, it would be about that. It would be about that. That's why we assume it. What it is.
00:13:58:07 - 00:14:19:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It's the loss is a stability and the loss of the assets and the resources that you bring to this relationship. This person isn't ready to end it on your terms. They want it to end on theirs. And so the loss of control is driving them nuts. The loss of the access of all the way that you keep this person's life stable on the road, between the lines, not a mess because they always are making messes.
00:14:19:21 - 00:14:46:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And maybe you also bring other goodies, like maybe you're bring in a paycheck. Maybe you're also taking care of the kids. who knows, maybe you're bringing sex, but you're bringing assets. What this really is, it's protest behavior. It's not I miss you, I love you, it's not loving behavior. It's protest behavior. It's the same thing that you see as a kid at the checkout grocery line when you're trying to pay for what you just bought and they're melting down, wanting the candy bar behind you
00:14:46:06 - 00:14:49:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It's not that they want you, they want the candy bar.
00:14:49:07 - 00:14:50:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. and they'll do. Anything to get it.
00:14:51:00 - 00:15:01:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
and we mix that up. But the way to test it is to put it to a test. And I'll tell you if this person's not sincere, it will fail within a week or two. It won't even take that long for this test to fall apart.
00:15:01:05 - 00:15:21:07
Lisa Sonni
that'll be really hard. But I get it. But what you're describing is a change in tactic. And some people can recognize that. And you know, when the narcissist loses their power over you, they almost feel a little bit helpless. They feel a little bit powerless. They hate that. And so the shift is this tactic of like yelling at you or leaving you is not working anymore.
00:15:21:07 - 00:15:38:23
Lisa Sonni
So I have to do something different. Yeah. And that's when they throw this love bombing and begging and, and then you know, to be fair, they don't all do that. But the ones that do, it's like they're using this, this knowledge that you want to be loved and all the promises. But yes, when you perform a test, they will fail it and then you will see.
00:15:39:05 - 00:15:53:21
Lisa Sonni
But having said that, if they catch this, that it's a test, you know, if you frame it and use that language I'm testing, you, I can only imagine, like now you're testing me so you don't trust me. What's the point of it? I can I can just hear the argument. I'm having an argument with my ex in my head right now.
00:15:54:01 - 00:15:54:18
Lisa Sonni
I can feel it.
00:15:54:18 - 00:16:10:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
No, you can't frame it as a test, but you can talk about it like hear you really love me. I hear you want to work on this. There some things it has to change. I think if you frame it that way, not as an exercise or as a test, but just frame it as there are some things that I don't want to share, but are just things that normally change when relationships improve
00:16:10:22 - 00:16:24:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
and there are some things that don't. I'm not going to share all of that with you, because I really need to see you do work and do the hard work of knowing what went wrong here. Because. Because we're used to taking the emotional labor on, you know, I don't know why you're half smiling. So what do you think here?
00:16:24:05 - 00:16:39:19
Lisa Sonni
I'm thinking of of an immediate thing that a narcissist would say, that you don't even have to go through with the rest of this test because it's a great test. But here's how you know they fail immediately when they say to you, so you're not even going to tell me what I need to do. So you're setting me up to fail immediately.
00:16:39:19 - 00:17:08:11
Lisa Sonni
You failed because a healthy person or a person interested in being healthy or healthier would say, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to do right by you. I'm going to try. I'm really. Yeah. But the anger in how you present this, even if you present it in the really great way that you just described, if they get angry at this or at you for not giving them the exact roadmap, what they're telling you is that I need you to tell me the actions to take, and I will. And this is a mental illness thing.
00:17:08:11 - 00:17:15:11
Lisa Sonni
Go check, check, check. I will do the things and it will never be authentic. And then you'll still question if it's true or not.
00:17:15:13 - 00:17:34:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Right? Because here's even the bigger piece, Lisa. A healthy person would never have had to have this conversation right? They would have known there's something going wrong. They would feel your pull back. You would say, I'm thinking of a divorce or I want a separation. They would say, oh crap, I love her, I love him, I don't want to lose this.
00:17:34:13 - 00:17:51:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And they would get their ass out and start doing the hard work of figuring out what's wrong and really looking at their self and remembering all the arguments and all the things that you said in the past that they have ignored before. Because I. This is how I liken a failure to a relationship. don't know where I saw this analogy, but it made so much sense.
00:17:51:12 - 00:18:10:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Relationships are like two people in a canoe. Like, imagine that you guys are survivors off in the middle of the ocean and you're on. the lake. This little raft together, and one of the members falls into the water and starts flailing. I'm drowning, I'm drowning. And the other person in the boat or the raft just sort of like, doesn't hear them and doesn't realize this person's flailing and drowning.
00:18:10:10 - 00:18:28:14
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And eventually the person in the water drowns. They disappear. And then the person on the raft says, oh my goodness, I'm on the raft a lower. Then they start scrambling and getting really anxious and scared and start searching for them. And by then they don't realize the other person's already gone, that they have been yelling for a while and it's been ignored. And often at that point it's too late.
00:18:28:14 - 00:18:51:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But sometimes. Sometimes we catch it enough when the person's still flailing and we can pull the relationship back. But with a narcissist, they're angry. All of this to them. You asking for something they perceive that you're being entitled. God forbid. Only they're front and center all the time. The only person in the room. So the minute you show up, they have an issue even that you're like, what you're saying is, I have to do my own emotional work.
00:18:51:23 - 00:19:08:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You're not going to do the emotional labor around here, because I expect you to do all the emotional labor. And I cannot tell you, Lisa, and that relationship I did, all the emotional labor I made. had he had he couldn't ask for a Cushier life series. It couldn't he didn't even know is in the mount, in the bank. And literally he just went and drew money out.
00:19:08:07 - 00:19:11:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It was like, better than my kids ever had it. My kids even have it easy.
00:19:11:20 - 00:19:39:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. So unbelievable. But it's the expectation and I think that's the key. Like you are responsible for the emotional health of the entire relationship and them as an individual, but they are relying on you for that. I don't think they necessarily recognize that consciously, but it's all on you and that is a sign, right? If they are, looking at this relationship like you need to be, happy that they have made these changes, you should be grateful that they went to therapy.
00:19:39:04 - 00:19:44:20
Lisa Sonni
Or you. My favorite. I haven't even yelled at you in like a week. Oh my God, you're still on that from last week?
00:19:45:01 - 00:19:45:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, over.
00:19:45:21 - 00:19:46:08
Lisa Sonni
Get over
00:19:46:08 - 00:19:52:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
it. They've asked you to applaud for those small things. Did you notice I did? I took the garbage out. Did you notice? Did you notice like. Yeah.
00:19:52:02 - 00:19:54:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I was on me about that and I did it.
00:19:54:08 - 00:19:57:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I know, I know like and I've never got a comment on the laundry ever.
00:19:57:19 - 00:20:19:23
Lisa Sonni
So yeah the it's always be. Yeah. So you're going to see that. And I think you know it is this love. Is that love. Is that a sign of a person who genuinely does love you? I know how much we want to be loved. That is a driver in why we want to believe this. But if you can step back as much as you can and really question what's really going on, did this really feel like love? Is this consistent?
00:20:20:03 - 00:20:27:06
Lisa Sonni
And I always want to ask. It's a little bit sarcastic, but like, why does it take you leaving to finally have them have this epiphany?
00:20:27:08 - 00:20:43:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, I don't buy that. Even that's a selfish reaction to something. Oh my goodness, I'm losing something. That's an inconvenience to me. I don't want to lose that. So now I'm going to start to show up at work But when they're upset and in distress, that's not enough of a motivation because I don't really, frankly, care that much. That's really what's being said.
00:20:43:10 - 00:20:46:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I don't think we actually say that to ourselves, but that's what's said.
00:20:46:08 - 00:21:04:04
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, they only care when it now impacts them. They did not care when you were crying on the bathroom floor. They didn't care when you were losing your mind. You have all those visions of of, you know, especially women who care and they trying to save their relationship. That's when they're screaming and loud and flipping out. And when they stop caring, they're quiet.
00:21:04:06 - 00:21:18:21
Lisa Sonni
It's like, why do you wait until the switch flips? And we don't care anymore to finally try to get your partner back, because it didn't matter to you until it affected you. That is a massive, massive sign of selfishness and entitlement.
00:21:19:02 - 00:21:42:14
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It really is. let's jump over to the podcast Extra today and talk about how to know what real love is, because we didn't answer that question. You circled it several times, but you and I didn't get into that. But let's jump into the fan mail so we got a letter from Charlotte, North Carolina this past week. Lisa said, what are some ways that I can protect my child from his or her covertly narcissistic parent?
00:21:42:18 - 00:22:05:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Many of this parent's offenses are almost impossible to pinpoint, let alone try to explain to a small child. tough topic. Yeah, yeah, I can think of, for example, like, showing up late at a, recital for the child or a sporting event and then having a really great excuse, but they do it every single time. And you know, that really hurt because maybe that key moment in the child's game got missed.
00:22:05:13 - 00:22:17:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And now you're trying to explain the fact that this, you know, what do you say is a explanation of why they are not showing up. So what do you say? I know you do with a lot more parents than I do. How do you coach someone through this?
00:22:17:05 - 00:22:43:06
Lisa Sonni
I maybe have a unique perspective on this because I think that most people will answer, like, let's say your child says like, why? Right? The child is directly asking, I don't answer the question. I would say, I see that you're hurt. And I get that it makes sense that you feel that way. And, you know, you taught me this, but you you let the child sit in the paradox of, I feel like he loves me or she loves me, and yet they don't show up, or they don't pay attention or they don't.
00:22:43:10 - 00:23:01:13
Lisa Sonni
They're not there for me. And I'm not saying, you know, highlight that, but just sort of yes, that is sad that he didn't show up. Yes. That is sad that that happened. Makes sense. You don't actually answer the question now. Some people feel uncomfortable not answering a question, but this is how you get them to see it for themselves
00:23:01:19 - 00:23:03:15
Lisa Sonni
and you don't create loyalty points.
00:23:03:17 - 00:23:22:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Right? Because the other dangerous thing that we do is that we explain it away. What we inadvertently do when we do do that, it's like, well, they didn't mean to. They just, you know, how work sometimes takes too long and they can't leave when they want to. What you're inadvertently saying is, I'm sorry, dear. My sweet child, you're not as important as work.
00:23:22:09 - 00:23:42:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And you need to know that your second priority in this other person's life and maybe second priority in everybody's life, which has been the topic we've been talking about, is what is love? When we get used to that message, then we get used to having behaviors that are unloving. So I agree with you. Yeah, I, I would do that's what I would say, I would I would tell them to do something very similar to say, yeah, I'm sorry
00:23:42:11 - 00:24:03:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
that's hurtful. I hate it when it happens to me. and then just sort of like leave it there and then see what happens follow the conversation, let them direct where it goes. I think a lot of times as parents, we think that we have to have the answer. We don't have to have the answer. Sometimes kids just like, you know, in a relationship between two adults, we're just looking for a place to vent and express our frustration.
00:24:03:07 - 00:24:20:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
We're not really looking for a solution. We just want to hurt. So showing up and being sensitive is a fantastic thing. But it does also allow them. Like you said, it creates that tension and allows them to work on the tension for like, I don't get that. They say this is important and they consistently miss things that are important to me.
00:24:20:10 - 00:24:32:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So what does that really mean? And over time, it helps them come to the conclusion of I think they don't tell the truth, which is what you want them to get to on their own, on their. You say that that's a bad thing to do. You can't do that. Yeah.
00:24:32:19 - 00:24:51:13
Lisa Sonni
I strongly just want to reinforce, you know, let's say that it was you know, he's daddy always choose his work. However you frame that is going to hurt the child. So my question is always does that benefit your child. And a lot of people are like, yeah, but they deserve to know the truth. You didn't answer my question. How does that benefit your child to know there's no benefit
00:24:51:14 - 00:25:09:11
Lisa Sonni
knowing the truth if that's the truth, it doesn't actually benefit them. And I'm not saying protect your ex, and I'm not saying to necessarily protect your child. I'm saying they don't need your version of the truth that like daddy always chooses work or, this is why they don't show up or don't feed. Fill that in for them. They need to connect it on their own.
00:25:09:11 - 00:25:11:02
Lisa Sonni
That is what will make them see it
00:25:11:02 - 00:25:35:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
finally. And a lot of people think, well, they're small child, so they're not making that connection. I want to strongly disagree with you. They are they are making that connection, kids. I've even seen therapies of of highly sophisticated conclusions children are drawing. I happened to watch to like renowned experts, conduct family therapy. And they were talking about adult, topics in front of the children and the children who were maybe 3 or 4.
00:25:35:22 - 00:25:52:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And by the way, it wasn't direct language, so it was not explicit. But on the other hand, as an adult, you know what they're talking about. The children actually acted it out in the play, right there on the floor. they and so here are these kids are making these conclusions. They do understand what's happening, you know, not using the words you and I would use.
00:25:52:12 - 00:26:10:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
They're experiencing it emotionally and showing you with their action, their emotions. But they get it. They're making the connections. We need to trust that process. But what happens that we often don't realize is one, we're expressing our own rage when we tell them these things were angry, and we want them to know that we're angry and take our side.
00:26:10:08 - 00:26:30:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And that's the terrible part of these separation. Or when the relationships are going bad, it's it becomes a competition of who do you love more, mommy or daddy? And we really need to avoid anything that remotely resembles that the narcissist or the toxic parent is not. But we can't get them to play by good rules. And if you let them be the only one that does that, they will start to look bad at some point.
00:26:30:20 - 00:26:33:21
Lisa Sonni
...just wait. I know the patience is hard, but you. Gotta just
00:26:33:23 - 00:26:55:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, yeah, well, this is a fantastic topic. I'm glad we talked about it. Now we're going to hop over and talk about how to heal from not recognizing what love is, how to find love. So I hope people will join us on the podcast extra. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube?
00:26:55:05 - 00:27:14:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Find me at KerryMcAvoy, PhD. And whether you’re in, consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship. Find community support at my toxic free Relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com.
