Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Constantly second-guessing yourself, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or finding your footing after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join mental health experts Dr. Kerry McAvoy and Lisa Sonni as they uncover the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. From understanding destructive personalities and their manipulative tactics to exploring the stages of abuse and how to rebuild after the damage, you’ll gain the clarity and tools needed to break free and heal.
If you’re ready to reclaim your self-worth and discover the path to emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Could Your Partner Be Sadistic? Why We Excuse Cruelty in Relationships
Ever wondered if your partner’s cruelty is intentional? Do they know they’re being hurtful, or is it just thoughtlessness?
This week, Dr. Kerry and Lisa Sonni expose a chilling but often-overlooked dynamic in toxic relationships: sadism.
Learn what sadism really is, how it shows up in narcissistic partnerships, and why some toxic individuals seem to take pleasure in your pain.
➡️ Want to watch the Podcast Extra Interview? https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
🔹 Need support? Get expert insights and practical strategies for recognizing and addressing sadism in relationships in this week’s Podcast Extra Interview—an exclusive deep-dive video interview available only to subscribers.
👉 Join today for immediate access: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
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Kerry McAvoy, PhD
Lisa Sonni
More About Us!
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.
Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.
Lisa Sonni
Lisa Sonni is a certified Life & Relationship Coach, specializing in trauma bond recovery and abuse education, who helps clients from all walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships. She has published an online self-guided course, The Trauma Bond Recovery Course, and several books, The Trauma Bond Recovery Journal, and Surviving to Thriving: A Six-Step Blueprint to Narcissistic Abuse Healing and Recovery.
With 7 professional certifications and her own personal experience as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, her expertise is geared towards getting clients to a good space in their lives and within themselves. Lisa has two children and enjoys cooking, reading, and walks. She is a popular content creator on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube under the name Stronger Than Before with over 1M followers, where she educates people on abuse tactics, narcissism and domestic violence. She has helped thousands of women exit and rebuild their lives.
Wedding Wednesday PodWe're spilling ALL the tea on wedding drama, horror stories & the craziness of planning!
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00:00:04:20 - 00:00:23:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Today we talk about a really tough topic. It's triggering. So I want to warn you. Lisa and I discuss sadism in toxic relationships, which is often an unrecognized dynamic that can spell danger for the victim.
00:00:23:19 - 00:00:41:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Please, if there is a topic that we have not talked about that I've been aware of, and I'm becoming increasingly aware of that I'm really alarmed about, and I think that we need to all wake up to. In fact, we often excuse it and we'll say, oh, they didn't mean to. They don't know that they're doing it. Have trauma, you know, or will say they just aren't empathic.
00:00:41:05 - 00:01:03:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
That's why they behave that way. And it's sadism. And I know that's going to really shock people to hear me use the word sadism. Mine was a promise of physical intimacy, would be a rich and a very big part of our life. And then I got into the relationship and discovered that it was missing, and that we would go a real long periods of time, and I would finally get to the place of crying, pleading for some kind of connection.
00:01:03:04 - 00:01:31:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
No one's owed sex. Yeah, I understand it, but I'm talking about we don't make out. We don't hold hands. We're not cuddling much. My partner was just disengaged. And elsewhere, I would literally wait for the TV show to end, hoping maybe once he was satisfied that he would sort of turn to me and we'd have a connection. Or imagine those moments where you have a really great day and it's powerful and you connect with each other and you think, oh, we're going to celebrate tonight by having a really close experience.
00:01:31:04 - 00:01:54:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And then he would throw something into the mix, like turning on a show that had many parts, a series, and I know that I'm going to lose him till 3 or 4 a.m. in the morning, deliberately thwarting me. Now, people probably hear all of this and say, well, how is that sadism? Sadism is an effort to hurt, humiliate, or harm another person deliberately for their gratification or power.
00:01:54:22 - 00:02:18:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And it's done deliberately, intentionally. And there is a pleasure in the thwarting of that person's experience, but also inflicting pain to them. There's actually a pleasure in the infliction of pain. I mean, I could tell that my partner knew that I was hoping that there was sort of that, you know, growing sense of connection, which normally, hey, I was married in another relationship and I knew where that would go.
00:02:18:04 - 00:02:39:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Here's a growing sense of connection, and I knew we would end up being intimate. But in this situation, there is sort of this “haha” or even this kind of a smirk like, good on me that you got affected like that. Did you recognize the sadism that might have been in your relationship? Or certainly when you listen to other people's stories about this, is this a feature that you're seeing in relationships?
00:02:39:08 - 00:02:57:10
Lisa Sonni
It is. I see it more commonly than I think we like to admit. And I know that looking back in my own relationship, I saw parts of sadism. I think I missed how much he enjoyed hurting my feelings. Always. Like you said, it felt like, you know, he doesn't get it. He doesn't realize. He doesn't know. And that's not true.
00:02:57:10 - 00:03:19:18
Lisa Sonni
At all. And I think what people tend to miss is the difference between sadism and cruelty or sadism and just sort of meanness, like it can be reactive if it's just mean harming people, you know? Yes, it's cruel, but it's not always premeditated. It's not always for pleasure. But sadistic behavior is intentional. It is persistent. It's the enjoyment of the suffering.
00:03:19:18 - 00:03:29:15
Lisa Sonni
And you can see it sometimes if you're really looking in kind of a flash on their face. Yeah, twinkle in their eye. And it's really, really crazy to watch. But I've seen it.
00:03:29:21 - 00:03:38:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah it is. It's that sort of eye visit called Duper Delight. Is that the word that we refer to it where they have that little smirk like, I got you? Yeah, yeah.
00:03:38:11 - 00:03:52:06
Lisa Sonni
That's the that's the pleasure that we're talking about. They provoke it. They escalated. They love that. They enjoy it. They control through fear. And I find often not always, it's relentless. They never stop. The suffering seems to be fuel.
00:03:52:09 - 00:04:10:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And it's easy for us to think in these moments that, oh, they're just not empathic, you know, they're just kind of callous. But we miss the fact that there's a smugness, a pleasure that comes out of the humiliation and that not only that, it's tearing you down, but it's done for the pleasure of the individual doing it, that they're getting something off on it.
00:04:10:09 - 00:04:13:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I think that's the part that's extremely disturbing. Is that part of it?
00:04:13:21 - 00:04:33:00
Lisa Sonni
I completely agree, you know, you actually just reminded me I long story, but became aware that my ex compares his new girlfriend to me regularly in a really, you know, if I was going to be treated like this, then why didn't I just stay with her? Or you're just going to be like her? If you do this, then you're like her.
00:04:33:02 - 00:04:44:02
Lisa Sonni
The constant comparison and it's been going on for years, very sadistic because that it translates us. But it's so hurtful for her to constantly be compared to someone else.
00:04:44:07 - 00:05:02:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, yeah. And it comes up in super subtle ways. Here's another subtle way that it showed up in my relationship. I'm realizing now that mine was extremely sadistic. So everyone knows that I wear wigs. And at the time when I got into that relationship, I hadn't really like, in a way come out to the world. I was trying to hide that and had been trying to hide for ten plus years.
00:05:02:05 - 00:05:20:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
In fact, give you a perspective how serious of an issue it was to me, how sensitive it was. My late husband never saw me without some kind of hairpiece on ever. Not ever. It just was something that I just felt too much shame. So he insisted right away that I somehow come and show him what I look like without a hairpiece on.
00:05:20:17 - 00:05:39:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And then on top of that, he would ask me these loaded questions like, do you think you could ever walk in public that way? Would you ever have the courage to go out that way? Sort of like put me on the spot, you see if I could do it. And one of the things I requested, because I found in his iPhone that he had had a photo of one of his ex-wife sleeping.
00:05:39:10 - 00:05:59:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And I said to him, because I didn't wear my wig at night when I'm sleeping, I said, please never take a photo. You know what? After I got out of that relationship, I found a photo. He took a photo of me sleeping without it. You know, it was just this way of making me feel like this thing that I had, this thing that he was in on the he could at any time reveal and out me.
00:06:00:00 - 00:06:22:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And he also knew that he had one over on me because, by the way, he had a rich head of hair. So it was this way for him to feel like he was better than me and knew that it deeply hurt me. It was awful, and I could feel the creepy, terrible sensation to it with this person. I could feel him getting off on it, that it was very pleasurable to him to have this thing on me.
00:06:22:19 - 00:06:33:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Let's talk about, though, why we as survivors in these relationships. And initially we're victims because we're being victimized. Why we don't recognize the sadism.
00:06:33:19 - 00:06:53:16
Lisa Sonni
I think we don't expect it. So much of what we miss is related to a lack of education. I believed that you look at something like sadism, and it's a very small group of people. It's psychopaths, narcissists. I didn't really know about narcissists, but it's like your average abuser or your average person. Nobody's doing that. That's, you know, you're being ridiculous.
00:06:53:16 - 00:07:26:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, we're not at all being ridiculous because when you look at some of the more overt ways that people can be sadistic and some of the more covert ways anything from public humiliation, which I think you're sort of describing, or at least the threat of physical intimidation, coercion, triangulation, all these things that we're talking about, those can be somewhat overt, but we miss some of the more maybe hidden kind of psychological sadistic behaviors, like goading you to react or gaslighting, but in sort of a gleeful way, destroying moments of joy and really taking pleasure in that.
00:07:26:07 - 00:07:34:02
Lisa Sonni
Those are something that you can't really pinpoint, and I don't think it's what society knows as sadistic. I don't think that it seems obvious,
00:07:34:04 - 00:07:50:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
or even forgetting to show up for something super, super important. Like you're getting an award at work and they don't show up to the gathering for it. Those types of things exactly. We don't see that as somebody deliberately hurting us, as a way to get back and as a way to get even and for their own enjoyment as well,
00:07:50:10 - 00:08:09:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
though we don't see it that way. And then we miss it. I also think that we think people are more innocent than they actually are. We give people so much credit to being a nicer version than what we're actually living with that we just like, no, no, no, that's not possible. We end up thinking that is some like putting thumbscrews on somebody, you know, when you like.
00:08:09:14 - 00:08:36:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
We think it's this overt, kind of like almost sort of Hollywood looking kind of experience. We don't imagine that. It's the subtle twist. Here's one that one of my family members shared. She lost a lot of weight. This extremely self-conscious about her body, probably because of the extreme weight loss. I'm talking way over 100 pounds. She had obviously excess skin and her partner would love to like, touch and rub the rolls around her waist knowing she didn't like it.
00:08:36:10 - 00:08:47:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And she'd say, please don't do that. That bothers me. I mean, she'd be overt, please don't do that. That bothers me. He was like, yeah, but I enjoy it. Why shouldn't I enjoy something that I really enjoy? And he would continue to do that
00:08:47:06 - 00:09:04:10
Lisa Sonni
knowing it hurts her. And that's that's the thing is, like, you know, people will start to say, yeah, but why should he miss out on something that he enjoys just because she it's her body. It's her choice. She gets to decide that. It is so sadistic to say, but I understand that this hurts you. This bothers you, but I enjoy that.
00:09:04:14 - 00:09:13:13
Lisa Sonni
And I think what we actually miss is it's not that just. He enjoys touching you. He enjoys it. That it bothers you. Yes, yes, that's what we're missing. Yes, he's he's telling you the truth.
00:09:13:13 - 00:09:30:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Listen. And you know, in the moment, you know it. Here's another terrible example that happened to me. And I knew it. So I didn't participate in it, because you can tell me it's really sadistic. When we've had the period of being broken up for a month, I happen to have to be at the house that we shared, and his iPad was on the bed.
00:09:30:11 - 00:09:55:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I was on the iPad looking at what was happening. He was supposedly taking a day off for a retreat for his mental health, but he was actually down at a theme park with the prostitute that he had hired for the day. I know that because I actually saw the exchange between the two of them negotiating her rates, and the pictures of the two of them were coming in from that park where they stopped at these very spots to take a photo of her kissing his cheek or whatever else.
00:09:55:07 - 00:10:12:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Mind you, we're just broke up. We're not divorced. We don't know what's really happening. Our relationship. He comes back the end of the day because I happened to cross paths with them as I'm leaving the house where I had to wait and he's coming in. He says to me, oh, I had a great retreat. I didn't make it all the way to where I wanted to make, but I went to this really fantastic theme park.
00:10:13:01 - 00:10:35:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You should go with me some time. You and I should go together sometime. And I had this sudden flash that he wanted me. I'm even getting triggered. Telling you this wanted me to stand in those locations where they took those pictures and imagine me standing in her space. So he could get the pleasure of feeling she got one over on me over and over at my expense.
00:10:36:02 - 00:10:57:01
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely sadistic. Yeah, without question. Yeah. Without question. If people are experiencing anything even close to what we're talking about, this is sadism. And these relationships are so much harder to leave because of the danger in the actual exit. Right? They feed off your pain. And I think that in my experience anyway, there control tactics tend to be more extreme.
00:10:57:01 - 00:11:00:02
Lisa Sonni
It feels like warfare. Often it's very dangerous.
00:11:00:06 - 00:11:18:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, because you're getting to another really good point. And that is something I felt really fast in this relationship. And I had a feeling if people are recognizing this, they need to pay attention. I realized that my fear gratified him. And so if you saw me in that relationship, you would see me stoic. I was blank face, stoic.
00:11:18:09 - 00:11:39:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I don't know what happened on the Grammy red carpet this week between Bianca and Kanye West. I don't know if you saw that or not. Where Clay was naked in a no. Was that a decision they made together, or was that an example, of course, of control? I don't know, but that's the thing. Her blank face to me was a huge trigger.
00:11:39:09 - 00:11:59:12
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It bothered me because that's how I survived living with someone who got off on my pain and my humiliation. We underestimate this. We can't grasp the degree of twisted and perverted some people are. We miss it. And when we miss it, we miss the danger that we're in. When we're in these relationships.
00:11:59:18 - 00:12:17:00
Lisa Sonni
I think recognizing that people can be like this, there are people that will hurt you because they can. It's so oversimplified. But I think in some cases it just needs to be. They will because they can and they just they get off on it. They want to they will punish you if you try to leave them for it.
00:12:17:00 - 00:12:31:19
Lisa Sonni
And they will be relentless in their pursuit of continuing trying to control you or frankly, destroy you. And they'll enjoy it. It seems so crazy, but I keep saying it because I just really want people to understand this is not as uncommon as people think.
00:12:31:23 - 00:12:50:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
There's a sample in the book The Passionate Marriage by David Snart, where he gives exchange between two people who had been married a long time, and it's around their intimacy again. I happened to be around their intimacy. Here's a subtle example how he called the husband out on it. Now could be the wife. I'm not saying this is a man thing, it was just how it was played out in this example.
00:12:50:07 - 00:13:07:23
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But this husband refused to show up in a way that really she found helpful in it. It felt like hurtful to her, actually. It was hurting her. And he confronted the guy and said, you know, she's asked you not to do that. You know, that is harmful. So why do you persist? And he just claim on dumb? I don't remember, you know, that's one of the ways that they show up.
00:13:07:23 - 00:13:35:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I just don't remember. I forget every single time he said, really? So you forgot. I don't think you forgot. And he admitted, no, I did. No, I didn't know that I was doing it and I did not was bothering them. But I think we hear this, and because we tend to believe and we've been taught that the world's a good place, a just place, then we assume good things about people, and we assume that there has to be some explanation that people can't really be this twisted to do something like that.
00:13:35:04 - 00:13:55:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So I think part of the process is waking up to it. I'll tell you, it was only until I got out of the relationship and stopped back and saw it on paper. When I was writing the story, for me to realize the degree that this was extremely sadistic might never called me a bad name, rarely raised his voice, never touched me physically that way.
00:13:55:23 - 00:14:14:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But on the other hand, I knew there was a real potential threat. I saw him violent in other situations, and I knew he had a history of violence. So I knew that there was a real potential for it. So we often end up thinking that danger and sadism has to look a certain way, so we don't realize that it can actually look like lots of stuff.
00:14:14:15 - 00:14:33:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
In fact, I went I threw it into ChatGPT and it just had list and listed list of examples. And a lot of the things are things that we talk about as narcissistic abuse, but never then say that they're sadistic. We just say, yeah, they're triangulating you or yeah, they're gaslighting you or yeah, they're using DARVO on you. But we never say in order to humiliate you.
00:14:33:15 - 00:14:36:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So that you feel really bad so they can get some pleasure out of that.
00:14:36:20 - 00:14:47:06
Lisa Sonni
On that note, though, are all narcissists sadistic? And what types of narcissists are most sadistic? Is it? reserved for sociopaths? Does that mean anything? What's your opinion?
00:14:47:11 - 00:15:04:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, that's a hard one. So this is my opinion. I wouldn't say this is based on research. I wouldn't say all narcissists are sadistic. I wouldn't say that. I think there are two types, for example, that the hero type, for example, is a do gooder. No, they're just doing good out there for the sake of saying that they did good so that they look good.
00:15:04:03 - 00:15:24:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I also think the grandiose type, for example, may never be sadistic. I mean, I can imagine times when they might be like, for example, the smug professor who puts down the student at the student's expense for not knowing a certain terminology. That's sadism. Not everybody does that. So I wouldn't say all grandiose narcissists do that, but obviously the malignant mean all I have to do is watch.
00:15:24:23 - 00:15:44:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I try to think of the name of the show on HBO. It's not billions, but it's not one I'm talking about with, with the oh, shoot, that's going to bug me now. I'm sure people listen like, oh, they know what it is. It's a one about the tycoon who owns this multimedia business in Hollywood. Yeah, he's a great example of being very, very sadistic.
00:15:44:06 - 00:16:02:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So I think malignant narcissists, that's a hallmark of their type. I also think there's a lot of crossovers. There's a lot of types that have a piece of it and could, but not necessarily the kind of thinking of the sexual narcissist or is just that covert narcissist. Yeah, absolutely. They can be very sadistic. Is it evidence of, sociopathy or psychopathy?
00:16:02:21 - 00:16:20:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
That's an interesting thing. You and I got to meet Doctor Ramani, and we had a discussion on sociopathy and psychopathy. And the difference, per her, which we didn't get into a lengthy discussion. So if Doctor Ramani, if you're listening and I'm misquoting you, I apologize for this. But it was intentionality. She would say a psychopath is more intentional than a sociopath.
00:16:20:19 - 00:16:45:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Sociopaths are more volatile. Her and I agreed on that. But both of those types are sadistic. Very much so. Antisocial personality disorder is extremely sadistic because they are cold, they're looking for novelty, they're looking for that adrenaline rush, and they don't really care about how you feel. You're not a person. You're just a tool. You're an object. For them to act out their rage or their gender, or their even seek their pleasure at your expense.
00:16:45:06 - 00:17:01:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So I would say that's a key piece of an antisocial personality disorder, but I think it can be a key piece of narcissism. But here's the thing that bothers me. I think it's happening way more than we assume that it is, that it's probably a feature in a lot of relationships, but it's not something that we're openly discussing.
00:17:02:00 - 00:17:20:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And here's why I think it matters. Like when I talk about this today, I saw it twice this week. I only saw two consultations, and it was both consultations. It was a huge feature in both of them. When we don't see it, we then minimize the degree of the intentionality and the danger that we're in and the cruelty that we've been facing.
00:17:21:00 - 00:17:42:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
We excuse that in a way, we end up betraying ourselves. I betrayed myself when I failed to see his requirement early in that dating relationship. For me to show up without a wig when I had never outside my hairdresser, never. Lisa never showed anybody I minimized the assault that it did to my soul for him to make that request.
00:17:42:15 - 00:18:01:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And when I see these people sharing their stories, I see that same pain that they were brutalized by this. And so we don't see it. We don't call it out, we don't recognize it. We're tolerating something that is death by a thousand cuts. Absolutely, It's really bothering me this week because it stirred up stuff for me hearing these stories.
00:18:01:22 - 00:18:32:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I know the survivor stories can be really, really hard to hear. I know I hear a lot about sadism, although it's not recognized. That's not how it's being presented to me when I'm talking to clients and when I say like, wow, that's sadistic. Really? Is it? Yes, really it is. Or the intention ality. I think that what shocks people the most from where I sit as a coach is telling people that it's intentional, and helping them process how they know that, how they can actually see that it's intentional in their relationship, through how repetitious the behavior is, or the eyes.
00:18:32:19 - 00:18:50:22
Lisa Sonni
That little twinkle that I said that you can kind of their liking this, and the fact that you continue to tell them and they do it anyway, that's sadistic knowing that you're hurting and you continue to hurt someone that you alleged to love that is sadistic. And we miss that. We want to think so badly that there's any other reason they must leave us.
00:18:51:02 - 00:18:56:16
Lisa Sonni
That leads us right into cognitive dissonance, doesn't it? It's to you're really just trying to believe something that is so clearly not true.
00:18:56:21 - 00:19:13:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. And the minute when you drive home and usually what I have to do is I have to give them an example. This is the example I gave this week. I said, so do you have children? And this person said, yes, I do. What if one of your kids had a peanut allergy? Life-Threatening peanut allergy, would you forget that they had a peanut allergy?
00:19:13:18 - 00:19:34:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Oh absolutely not. There would be no peanuts within 100 mile of that kid. You can trust that parent. Then why would you think that your partner can't remember this is harmful or hurtful to you? Then suddenly you can see that dawning look that's sinking in. And that's what I really love about this. If we can see it for what it is, it changes the framework completely.
00:19:35:00 - 00:19:45:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Completely. It's now we don't feel sorry for them. We don't excuse them. We don't let them off. We now realize this was somebody who is using behavior to assault us on a regular basis.
00:19:45:20 - 00:20:04:02
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. And I always want to sort of ask people like, if you can realize that this person is doing this intentionally and on purpose because they can. How does that change your empathy? Do you still feel the same level of compassion to someone who's doing it because they can versus they're traumatized and they just don't know any better.
00:20:04:06 - 00:20:22:20
Lisa Sonni
They don't know any better. You have said it. You have said it with words. You're speaking English. He's speaking English. You say, this hurts me. They continue to do it. And this belief that. But he must not understand. What do you mean he doesn't understand? He says he doesn't understand. That keeps you in the cycle, which is sadistic in and of itself.
00:20:22:23 - 00:20:42:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I would love to jump over to the podcast extra and talk about what to do if you recognize that it's happening, what should be the first steps to take to protect yourself and sort of get ahead of this? But before we do that, we had somebody from Athens, Tennessee, write in for our fan mail, and this is what this individual said.
00:20:42:00 - 00:21:00:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
These episodes help me to try understand so much. I'm currently trying to leave and nobody understands why it's taken so long, why I've been able to survive so much mental abuse that I can't describe. But I'm struggling to get out. This is so common, Lisa. Isn't this. This is something that you and I hear all the time.
00:21:00:07 - 00:21:20:11
Lisa Sonni
Getting out is not easy. And I think, you know, people not understanding why it's so hard. You know, I posted a video recently. There's a lot of like. But why stay? Why would you stay? Why did you just leave one of the most obvious things in it? Actually, I have to be like borderline sarcastic here because this is 20, 25, 25% of relationships are experience. This
00:21:20:11 - 00:21:40:15
Lisa Sonni
how people can not know in this day and age that leaving is the most dangerous time, and that there's a risk of having your life taken, or that abusive people make it incredibly hard to leave the financial control the kids. I mean, even just the stuff that you don't have to be super emotional or a psychologist to understand is that it's dangerous.
00:21:40:18 - 00:22:01:03
Lisa Sonni
But in addition to that, if you're trauma bonded, if you're confused, the mixed messages, the grooming that happens, that conditioning and what I'm hearing and what this person said is over time you get conditioned to tolerate worse and worse behavior. And it doesn't feel as bad at some point because you've accepted this and that and this and that.
00:22:01:03 - 00:22:12:11
Lisa Sonni
Why not this? Keep going. It's just layer upon layer. You literally don't even realize how bad you are. It's sort of like being in the eye of the storm. You can't see. You do not see clearly.
00:22:12:16 - 00:22:32:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Right? And I can hear in this message, shame. Shame is just bleeding through this. And I think I really would like to urge this listener and every listener that identifies with this individual to know that it is really I know that the example of a frog in boiling water probably is not a real example, doesn't actually really happen, but I think it's a great way to describe what happens in these relationships.
00:22:32:21 - 00:22:49:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It is slowly warming up. You don't know that it's getting hotter. You don't know that you're experiencing abuse. And initially we write it off as sort of like, oh, they had a bad day or they're hungry. This is why this happened. We don't realize that the good part, the nice part that we saw was actually the manipulation was the part that fooled us.
00:22:49:05 - 00:23:07:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
We really believed that's authentic. And then we live for the good part. And you know what? These people are very sophisticated. They know that whenever we start to feel like we're getting ready to leave, we pull back. We're like, not quite emotionally invested. Then bam, they hit us with something that's just enough. Now, in the beginning, it's more and it's over time it gets less and less.
00:23:07:20 - 00:23:31:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Eventually they can just like, kiss us or smile or have a nice thing to say, and we're suddenly mollified. But we have been conditioned to, like, hold on for hope for that. And I think also like you mentioned, people do not understand the degree that our options are Severely limited. I mean, this person is probably cut off. I have even said that people don't understand why it's taking me so long, why it's been so hard.
00:23:31:06 - 00:23:49:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So that says to me they have no social support system. They're feeling very isolated. And some of that's done intentionally for control. But financial abuse literal cut off to access, literal lack of privacy. I mean, it goes on and on and on. Why this is so difficult. So I really want those who are in this position to know, please, no
00:23:49:20 - 00:24:06:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
shame on you. This is what happened to us. It's extremely hard to get out, extremely hard. Do you and I just wrapped up an interview with Joe Navarro, which is actually going to be, you know, is already people already listened to it by the time they listen to this one where he said, it is never, never the victim's fault.
00:24:06:02 - 00:24:32:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And I loved how he emphasized that it's not ever the victim's fault. So I just hope that this listener knows that we get it and that we're in support of them, and that that's why you and I run that toxic relationship club, because we know that it's really, really important for people to have a community of survivors who understand what it's like to survive something like this, to know that they're not alone, and to have the place where you can feel safe to struggle.
00:24:32:11 - 00:24:42:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I mean, there are members who are still in a relationship and still debating, do I leave or do I not leave, should I? What should I do? That's totally okay. No one has an agenda for you. There's no right way to do this.
00:24:42:11 - 00:24:44:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, and so true.
00:24:44:02 - 00:24:55:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Well, let's hop over to the Podcast Extra and talk about what to do if you're recognizing you have sadism in your relationship. But thank you so much, Lisa, for this great topic today. Oh, well,
00:24:55:00 - 00:25:12:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? Find me at KerryMcAvoy, PhD. And whether you're in, consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship. Find community support at my toxic free Relationship club.
00:25:12:22 - 00:25:20:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com.
00:25:18:07 - 00:25:20:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And I'll see you back here next week.
