The Disturbing Reasons Why Men Justify Violence Against Women: Interview with Chuck Derry, Co-Founder of Gender Violence Institute

Why do men abuse? How does this behavior benefit them?

Today, Chuck Derry, the co-founder of the Gender Violence Institute, joins us to discuss the disturbing reasons for male violence and what community responses are needed to curb these toxic/dangerous behaviors.

To learn more about the results of Chuck Derry’s study, visit: https://voicemalemagazine.org/abusive-men-describe-the-benefits-of-violence/

Gender Violence Institute: https://www.genderviolenceinstitute.org

Looking for the Podcast Interview with Chuck Derry?

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👉 Get immediate access to Chuck Derry’s Podcast Extra interview here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

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More About Us!

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Lisa Sonni

Lisa Sonni is a certified Life & Relationship Coach, specializing in trauma bond recovery and abuse education, who helps clients from all walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships. She has published an online self-guided course, The Trauma Bond Recovery Course, and several books, The Trauma Bond Recovery Journal, and Surviving to Thriving: A Six-Step Blueprint to Narcissistic Abuse Healing and Recovery.

With 7 professional certifications and her own personal experience as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, her expertise is geared towards getting clients to a good space in their lives and within themselves. Lisa has two children and enjoys cooking, reading, and walks. She is a popular content creator on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube under the name Stronger Than Before with over 1M followers, where she educates people on abuse tactics, narcissism and domestic violence.  She has helped thousands of women exit and rebuild their lives.

Transcript

00:00:04:16 - 00:00:23:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Abuse is an an all time epidemic, particularly male violence against women and children. But why do men abuse? Well, today. Chuck Derry co-found of the Gender Violence Institute, joins Lisa and I to talk about the consequences of male violence.

00:00:23:15 - 00:00:40:02

Lisa Sonni

So one of the topics that I get asked all the time is, do abusive men know that they're doing this on purpose? They can't possibly know, right? Or what's the reason that they're doing this? It doesn't make sense. And I came across an article written by Chuck Derry and this is what I'm so excited to talk about today.

00:00:40:04 - 00:00:51:11

Lisa Sonni

This article was so I opening. And I kind of want to ask, you know, where did this come from? Tell me what led you to write this article? What experiences did you have that made you kind of gather this information and write the article?

00:00:51:16 - 00:01:16:19

Chuck Derry

Well, it was amazing. 1983 I started working facilitating batterers groups. Accountability groups. Most of the men, mandated by the courts to be there because we were working with criminal and civil justice systems to hold men accountable. And at first we thought it was just an anger management problem, but they just lost control or other things. Right. And then the Domestic Abuse Intervention program in Duluth, Minnesota, had a focus group with survivors of domestic violence, women,

00:01:16:22 - 00:01:35:01

Chuck Derry

and they talked about what their experiences were, and they created the power and control wheel and that which has been out 120 different countries and 60 different languages. And it was one of the first time I thought, oh, so this might be conscious behavior. I mean, it looks like it is conscious behavior. The rubber on the wheel is sexual and domestic violence.

00:01:35:01 - 00:01:50:19

Chuck Derry

The hub is power and control. And then there's all kinds of sports intimidation, emotional abuse. So anyway, on the in group we have 24 week group one day a week, hour and a half, 12 to 15 guys in group. So I asked them what are the benefits of your violence? And they all looked at each other, which is notable, right?

00:01:51:00 - 00:02:06:05

Chuck Derry

And the guy said there are no benefits. I said, well, you must be getting something out of it, otherwise why would you do it? And then they looked at each other again, Then one guy started talking, and then I started riding up on a four foot by eight foot blackboard. Everything they said about all the benefits.

00:02:06:07 - 00:02:25:10

Chuck Derry

And then we ran out of space on a four foot by eight foot blackboard, and we ran out of space. And the first time I saw that, I thought, Oh my God, why would you give it up? And then I thought, should I ask them. And I said, okay, so guys, why would you give it up. And then we fell a two foot by two foot space on the blackboard.

00:02:25:12 - 00:02:44:18

Chuck Derry

Got arrested or just for protection. multiple divorces, my adult children would invite me to their weddings anymore, and I had to come to groups like this. That was it. but that was one of the first times I had fully understood how critical the criminal and civil justice system response to battering is to change men's behavior, because that was the prime thing.

00:02:44:20 - 00:03:06:13

Chuck Derry

And I do this on several groups, and they always had the same answer. I got arrested orders for protection. And I got to come to groups like this. And so if I ever had to choose between doing a batterers group or having a good player for progress, for criminal justice system and prosecution and consequences, I'd always take the criminal justice system and the civil justice system.

00:03:06:14 - 00:03:20:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

when you think about this and about the reasons the men were giving what connected you to it. Did you resonate with some of the reasons or. I mean, you're a man living in the world. Help me understand what your experience was seeing that on the blackboard.

00:03:21:01 - 00:03:41:00

Chuck Derry

Well, it wasn't anything new because as a man, a lot of times people think, oh, we just had to raise men's awareness. When I was 17, I was in a small town in northwestern Minnesota town of 2,500, ten miles south of Canada. And it was women's libbers then. It was 1973. And I thought to myself for the first time, what would it mean to me personally if men and women were really equal?

00:03:41:02 - 00:04:00:11

Chuck Derry

And within two minutes I had the answer? I'd have to give some stuff up. And I thought, nah, I don't think so. And I was a nice guy. And now I had more awareness about the benefits of sexism for men. And so for them to put on all these benefits, all the violence. This is the foundation of sexism, violence and oppression and privilege, right?

00:04:00:11 - 00:04:13:08

Chuck Derry

When all else fails. He's big enough to do this and get what he wants when he wants it. And a lot of times guys will just say, I have to do is give her my look and she'll do what I want. Once he's been violent with their, all he has to do is let her know that you do this or else you're going to get hurt.

00:04:13:10 - 00:04:28:03

Chuck Derry

And so when I started doing this work, I was 27 years old, working at a feminist women’s organization, and I thought I was a pretty nice guy. I didn't think I was very sexist or anything. And then I started doing this work, and then I found out my big toe was sexist. It wasn't just this little attitude, it was bone deep.

00:04:28:05 - 00:04:51:02

Chuck Derry

I was raised with it. And so with this many men beating and raping this many women, it could not happen without widespread cultural support. And I was in this culture of male dominance, male supremacy, sexism, right. So I recognize it, However it still did, when I first did this, all the benefits I got or by eight foot blackboard and we ran out of space of all the benefits, it did blow me away.

00:04:51:04 - 00:04:54:18

Chuck Derry

I mean, I was amazed, but it did not surprise me. It did not surprise me.

00:04:54:21 - 00:05:03:10

Lisa Sonni

So what's interesting, though, is you're listing all these benefits that were reported to you from these men. do you think that they actually see it as benefits or entitlements?

00:05:03:12 - 00:05:26:06

Chuck Derry

Both. But they get their entitlement by doing this, grabbing her by her throat, shoving her up against a wall, throwing her on the ground, kicking it in the stomach, bashing your head off the ground. And that's normal behavior. I'm not talking extreme violence here. I'm talking about this happening all the time with men. So it's both the benefits and entitlements is they create entitlements by threatening to harm this other person if

00:05:26:08 - 00:05:44:09

Chuck Derry

she doesn't do what he says to do. and male entitlement keeps it silent. There's so many places globally that are not arresting men for beating their wives and girlfriends, because men are the head of the household. It's man's world. He's in charge. What was she doing? Right? Yeah, I see immediately when women want to talk about this, the first thing that happens is,

00:05:44:10 - 00:06:01:05

Chuck Derry

what were you doing? And that's great for men. And not just men who matter, but all men. And so we as men who don't matter, don't abuse our partners have to think, okay, am I willing to give up the benefits of sexism? Am I willing to challenge the cultural norms that support this violence of sexual and domestic? But

00:06:01:06 - 00:06:22:20

Chuck Derry

in the U.S., 1 in 3 women are beaten by the man she's in relationship. And the center for Disease Control just came out with a study last year that said, one in women are sexually assaulted. This could not be happening without widespread cultural support. And so when I do trainings, I do trainings for men. Sexual assault center every couple months in Saint Cloud, Minnesota, for men who are busted for, prostituting women

00:06:22:23 - 00:06:37:23

Chuck Derry

and I to ask them thing. It's a US thing. I'm not the good guy and they're the bad guys. And so I see and I tell stories about my cultural norms I grew up with and how I treated girls based on that. And then what I learned when I started doing this work are women who live in a totally different world than we do,

00:06:37:23 - 00:06:56:03

Chuck Derry

and then it's just like, guys, do we care about women's lives one in two are raped, sexual assault. That's one in two women that we know one in three are beat. That's our sisters, our mothers, their wives, as by other men and men just stay silent. And our silence supports violence. So we have to speak up We have to work in partnership with women to end men's violence

00:06:56:08 - 00:06:58:07

Chuck Derry

because it's got to stop. It's horrible.

00:06:58:09 - 00:07:27:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You made a really powerful statement that it was a big leap. And I want to go back and kind of dissect that leap. And that is you said I realized that these benefits were so compelling, so, beneficial that we have to manage it through the community. We have to manage it legally. Help me understand why you realized that enlightenment, increased awareness, even maybe regret or remorse wasn't enough. of a consequence for to to mitigate or change behavior.

00:07:27:20 - 00:07:44:16

Chuck Derry

Well, it's very interesting because I work in these groups, seal teams, groups for ten years, over a thousand men, and do it 24 week group once a week. They're mandated by the courts, and they had 90 days hanging over their head. And if they had kicked out of the group, then they had to do some jail time because we had written agreements with probation and the courts.

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:03:01

Chuck Derry

And key point was signing these documents, because that makes the criminal and civil justice system liable. They have to follow these contracts. a guy would be in wait 16 or 18, and he's still denying his behavior, still blaming her. So kick them out of group and he'd go back to probation. He'd do ten days and they come back and I make sure they send them back to the same group.

00:08:03:01 - 00:08:23:08

Chuck Derry

So he couldn't manipulate a new facility. So we come back to our group and it week 6 or 8, he's taken full responsibility for his violence. And I asked him, this was really something. I mean, you were totally denying all your violence before, and now you're taking full responsibility for happened. What changed? And man after man after man would say, because I know I can't get away with that anymore.

00:08:23:11 - 00:08:52:20

Chuck Derry

I'd say, “What changed?”, they’d say “I know I can't get away with it anymore because I had to do jail time. They were held accountable. And again, that just totally supported how critical that accountability is and that there are consequences for that violence. And you have that in combination with the group. That's fine. The groups. Groups can be, have potential, but the foundation is jail time. Foundation is that they there will be consequences for this continued behavior because they haven't they haven't had any consequences for it.

00:08:53:01 - 00:09:08:20

Chuck Derry

And in most places they don't around the world. I remember when I went to Taiwan one time, to train law enforcement in Taiwan, three day training, that's all. This will be interesting. This is the other side of world. I wonder what it's like over there. And that's not. What was interesting, was interesting is that it was exactly.

00:09:09:01 - 00:09:19:22

Chuck Derry

They were not arresting men or beating their wives and girlfriends for the same reason. They were not arresting them in Saint Cloud, Minnesota in the USA. Man's in charge. He's the head of the house. She has to obey him.

00:09:19:23 - 00:09:23:13

Lisa Sonni

So ultimately, this is sexism at the root across the world.

00:09:23:14 - 00:09:40:16

Chuck Derry

Yeah, it is one of the foundations of sexism is this male violence And there's all kinds of male cultural norms that support this the jokes, the comments about women's bodies, what we like to do it on our body, with each other, around anti-woman and woman hating sexist statements about sexual exploitation and other things as well.

00:09:40:18 - 00:09:47:17

Lisa Sonni

as a male facilitating these groups, tell me what it was like. how did they interact with you in these groups? Did they see you as one of them?

00:09:47:19 - 00:10:07:09

Chuck Derry

Well, I'm sure it was different than it was female, but we also had female, co facilitators as well. But yes, men listen to men way more likely than they listen to women because of sexism. And, you know, we just we continue to have the conversation. And I knew male culture raised male culture as you were. but as a man.

00:10:07:11 - 00:10:17:20

Lisa Sonni

How did the men interact with you when they were in these sessions? Did they sort of see you as one of them? Did they see you as a person who wasn't going to hold them accountable just because you're a man and particularly a white man?

00:10:17:23 - 00:10:40:04

Chuck Derry

Yeah. They know you're holding them accountable. They're into denial, minimize blame. they push back all the time. we were clear. No, you can't get away with this. Yeah. This is a man working in a women's organization. Feminist women's organization. Say, no. This has to stop. Guys, this is not right. You have no excuse for this. Doesn't matter what she's doing, you don't have the right to hit or slap or punch her,

00:10:40:06 - 00:10:49:18

Chuck Derry

And so no, it wasn't like, oh, he's he's one of us. Because they knew we were there for accountability and we were challenging them all the time. Had to all the time in different kinds of ways.

00:10:49:20 - 00:11:09:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

What kind of shocks me is that there is a theory of development, moral development by Kohlberg that was put out years ago, where it describes how we develop a sense of conscience. And it starts out by we first discover that when you do something wrong, there's a punitive reaction. And so you don't want to get hurt, So you don't do bad things.

00:11:10:03 - 00:11:28:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And then we hopefully will grow eventually to a place where we do things for the integrity of it, for the principle of it. So help me understand what do you think is happening in men's development that's causing them to stay basically at the lowest rung of moral development when it comes to their relationship with women?

00:11:28:07 - 00:11:47:09

Chuck Derry

I think it's all the social and cultural messages they get as boys and men. But women are inferior and women are sexual objects you can use or abuse as you wish, and there'll be no consequences for that. So it's it's selfishness. It's greed. It's I can do this and get away with it. And it's interesting, too, that some people say hurt people, hurt people.

00:11:47:14 - 00:12:08:22

Chuck Derry

But the reality my experience is that hurt people help people because I work with many men and four brothers and a family, and their dad was abusing their mom, and they'd be in the closets hiding or under the bed. Big sister had their arm around them and hear their mother screaming and then come on, she's got black eyes and bruises all over. And three of those four boys said, no, I will never do this,

00:12:09:01 - 00:12:26:19

Chuck Derry

because they went through that sorrow. They saw their pain. And one boy said, oh, well, this kind of worked for dad. He got what he wanted all the time. So then one boy decided to let three out of the four said no. So hurt people help people. But there's so many cultural norms about manhood. I mean, when I was in first grade, I was in a little Catholic school.

00:12:27:00 - 00:12:38:18

Chuck Derry

I was six years old, and I found out the worst thing because a girl don't throw like a girl, don't throw a ball like a girl. Don't run like a girl. Don't do anything. Go, girl. That's how I know as the right kind of boy. So do I take a six year old rocket scientist to figure out that,

00:12:38:18 - 00:12:43:04

Chuck Derry

oh, if the worst guy like me is a girl, then oh, boys are better than girls, Duh.

00:12:43:06 - 00:12:58:20

Lisa Sonni

Yeah, it's really hard. I know that it. The messaging starts unbelievably young. And the benefits that you list in your article are really interesting. Are there maybe sort of like ten that really stood out to you that shocked you the most when you were making that whiteboard of of reasons?

00:12:58:20 - 00:13:17:00

Chuck Derry

Or it's they all did. But, you know, I dictate reality. You know, I get to control everything. I get to control the money. Even if she's working, I control all the money. So the traps are, the isolates are. She's just an object, like a suicide. All the money spent. And he gets her to admit that it's her fault.

00:13:17:04 - 00:13:37:22

Chuck Derry

She's to blame for the battering and tell her cops tell prosecutors, you know, deny what she had said earlier. And this is all because of his threats of harm and life. And at the same time, there are men who grow up in the same culture who decide not to be violent towards women, who know that that is wrong.

00:13:38:00 - 00:13:46:11

Chuck Derry

So just because we're reasons culture is no excuse for the violence, because there's so many men that say, no, that's wrong. No, but we just have to speak up

00:13:46:13 - 00:14:05:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I can almost hear. I can almost hear the naysayers, though, because we get this all the time is but women allow it. And so what is the woman's responsibility for being in a relationship where violence is happening? Shouldn't she just wake up, get a clue and get out? So what do you say to that when you hear? Because I'm sure you've heard that as well.

00:14:05:00 - 00:14:21:04

Chuck Derry

Many times she would get out if she could. He's controlling all the money, even if she's working. She doesn't have any finances. He has told her, if you ever leave me, I will kill you. And I'm not. This is not extreme. I'm not exaggerating. This is not extreme. This is common. I will kill you or I will kill the children.

00:14:21:05 - 00:14:31:21

Chuck Derry

And there are men who will kill her best, best cat, her dearest dog, just to prove to her no. If you ever leave me, I will kill you. I kill your parents. I'll kill your brother. I will beat you. I will stalk you. Yeah.

00:14:31:21 - 00:14:45:08

Lisa Sonni

The threats are. The threats are deep. what a lot of people don't realize is that she would leave if she could. I love the way that you said that. It's so simple and it's so accurate. I know for me, my abuser told me the only way out was in a body bag, but he sent it as a joke, right?

00:14:45:08 - 00:15:10:00

Lisa Sonni

It was just a joke. And it's so funny. But yet that probably was the only way out if I, you know, wasn't careful and, you know, the way my situation played out, I was lucky to get out safely. But a lot of women, can't leave. And it's not always finances. But I do see that very commonly. And even with emotional abuse, he has psychologically manipulated you into thinking that it's your fault, that you can't leave, that you're not going to do well. If he leaves or he'll take the children,

00:15:10:00 - 00:15:26:14

Lisa Sonni

then I think that's a big miss on people. I also think that societally, we're focusing on what she did to bring on the abuse or why she didn't leave, why she stayed, why she picked him instead of what you're talking about, which is where does the abusive ness come from? When I try to talk about that online, there's a lot of pushback.

00:15:26:18 - 00:15:46:14

Lisa Sonni

I recently made a video highlighting your article, and it did unbelievably well. And women around the world were like, oh my God, what an incredible article. This is so eye opening. Thank you for sharing. And albeit the men were quite quiet, but the ones that did comment most often said, I'd love to see this list for women. What are the benefits of women's abuse?

00:15:46:17 - 00:15:51:08

Lisa Sonni

Let's talk about women. Why is this so focused on men? What would you say to that? It's classic.

00:15:51:11 - 00:16:13:00

Chuck Derry

Anytime you deal with an oppressor, what they want to do is shift the focus to the victim. And this men are doing this all the time. Shift the focus of her. So you're not focusing on me so I don't have to change my behavior. I keep getting all the benefits I want from sexism in general, from battery. So, yeah. And these poor women, any time they go out for help, when the first thing things you hear, what were you doing right. Put the focus on her rather than him.

00:16:13:04 - 00:16:17:08

Chuck Derry

Right. And so it's very convenient for men that that happens. But it's very wrong.

00:16:17:09 - 00:16:34:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

it's such an insidious thing. So you what I hear you say is that this is a pervasive mindset that does not change unless there is firm and rigid and enforced consequences. So when you think about our society as a whole, where do you think we're going wrong in enforcing consequences?

00:16:34:19 - 00:16:53:23

Chuck Derry

Well, one of the things that we did at Saint Cloud Intervention Project in Saint Cloud is that we work with the criminal justice system, the police chief, sheriff, prosecutors, probation judges, and we made protocols and agreements with them about arrests, and we train them to about what to look for, for the violence. what are the the key clues that the violence is going on.

00:16:54:01 - 00:17:12:17

Chuck Derry

And we created contracts and they sign those contracts. And again, that was critical that they signed it because now they're liable. And then we would track them. We would track and monitor because this is public information. The US, the we are tracking monitor every call for domestic and see how many were arrested, how many were not arrested.

00:17:12:21 - 00:17:36:09

Chuck Derry

And then we would track how the the prosecutors prosecute this case. And then we track what kind of consequences the judges provided. And so we had this information and a lot of these individuals in the US are elected officials, judges, sheriffs, police chiefs are assigned by the city councils. in the state, Minnesota. So anyway, not only do we set up these protocols, we also tracked and monitored.

00:17:36:11 - 00:18:00:06

Chuck Derry

And so like the arrest rates in Saint Cloud in 83 went from 25% to like 85% arrest rate per call. So in the past before we started doing this work, they had maybe 1 in 4 arrests. And then when we started doing this work and tracking them, it was 85% were arrests and prosecution went up to like 92% prosecution from, you know, in cases that were arrested, 62% or something like that.

00:18:00:08 - 00:18:20:12

Chuck Derry

that made a big difference. and I think it's critical. And the domestic abuse intervention programs in Duluth, Minnesota has all the kinds of materials that's needed to develop this kind of, intervention, because it's a community intervention. And what I happen is guys who don't want to change, they just start moving to different community is not making arrests and not holding them accountable.

00:18:20:14 - 00:18:39:22

Chuck Derry

But we saw a massive change in Saint Cloud that was saved many people's lives and shook women and children's lives because of the work, because the law enforcement, prosecutors, judges agreed to go forward and hold these men accountable, that I was wrong and we had to track and monitor and create contracts with them to make that happen.

00:18:40:03 - 00:19:08:18

Lisa Sonni

I love that. It's sad to me that I don't see that very often. Anywhere in these people who are whether they're elected or not, the people who are there to make the decisions and hold them accountable, the police officers, the judges, the people who work in the prosecutor's office, all of it. They're not doing enough. I know I had an experience with, partner Assault Response Program, which, you know, names aside, it sounds very similar to what you were doing, what you were leading. And a prosecutor told me that it's really great.

00:19:08:18 - 00:19:28:10

Lisa Sonni

This program is so great. It's really effective. And I said, how do you measure its effectiveness? And she said, well, they don't go on to re-offend. And I said, but by your own definition, to me, my abuser didn't offend because you take offend by, being charged or convicted and they're often not convicted. So are they just learning how to get away with it better?

00:19:28:12 - 00:19:51:16

Lisa Sonni

And she kind of shrugged at me and the victim, advocate that was on the call with me said she recognized how disappointing that call was and how much the prosecutor missed the whole point of my question and just saw it as effective when it is, in fact, not effective. It's provably not effective. So I love that you've changed the narrative and changed the focus to the accountability piece and the focus on the system.

00:19:51:21 - 00:20:02:02

Lisa Sonni

It's not just that we need education and awareness, though. We do. But that's not the only piece. The biggest mess is the accountability. And I'm so happy that you're highlighting that. It's really great work.

00:20:02:05 - 00:20:28:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. Thank you so much for that. In fact, I'd like to jump over to the podcast extra and here's the question. And then maybe we can answer it. But I'd like to try. And that is what could we do as a society to make it safer for both men and women? You know, if we could if if you say that it's programing and it's like what starts right from the moment you knew by the age of six that you had an advantage as a man, what could we be doing in families with our kids to make this a different place?

00:20:28:22 - 00:20:45:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So we're going to jump over to the podcast deck to talk about that. But Chuck Derry thank you so much for being on today. How can people find you if they'd like to learn more about the Gender Violence Institute or more about you, can you tell us where is or anything that you're doing currently that they could find out more information?

00:20:45:18 - 00:20:59:00

Chuck Derry

Well, there's our website, Gender Violence Institute. Org but I'm semi-retired. But they can also email me at GVI@frontiernet.net G gender V violence, institute, GVI@frontiernet.net

00:20:59:00 - 00:21:06:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Fantastic. We'll put that in the show notes so people can find it I appreciate that. Thank you for being on us. Thank you for your fantastic work.

00:21:06:04 - 00:21:24:19

Chuck Derry

Well, thank you and thank you for all your amazing work and women have just transformed my life listening to women, feminist women, just amazing. Every lie I was told about women was revealed to me when I started doing this work. Every lie and it's just been incredible. I've been so lucky. It transformed my life. So thank you so much for having me as well.

00:21:24:21 - 00:21:48:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy Ph.D. Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.