Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Constantly second-guessing yourself, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or finding your footing after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join mental health experts Dr. Kerry McAvoy and Lisa Sonni as they uncover the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. From understanding destructive personalities and their manipulative tactics to exploring the stages of abuse and how to rebuild after the damage, you’ll gain the clarity and tools needed to break free and heal.
If you’re ready to reclaim your self-worth and discover the path to emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
When It’s Necessary to Go No Contact With a Narcissistic Mother: A Conversation with Alex Anderson, FOG Movie
Going no contact with a parent, particularly when it’s your mother, is a gut-wrenching decision.
Alex Anderson, an independent film-maker and writer joins me to discuss his timely movie, FOG, which explores a toxic mother-daughter dynamics. He describes how Fog-Obligation-Guilt drives this challenging relationship.
Learn more about Alex and his work here: https://www.youtube.com/@alexanderson2467
To watch the FOG trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DacCvo7ngLA
See the full movie of FOG here: https://youtu.be/aAknjJiYZJA?si=blSq5URg7RGhC7Rg
Looking for the Podcast Interview with Alex Anderson?
🔹 Learn what are the biggest questions Alex gets about the FOG movie and about his future work when you subscribe to our Podcast Extra newsletter. Gain immediate access to a growing archive of expert insights and video interviews designed to help you move forward.
👉 Get immediate access to the Podcast Extra when you join here today: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
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Kerry McAvoy, PhD
Lisa Sonni
More About Us!
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.
Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.
Lisa Sonni
Lisa Sonni is a certified Life & Relationship Coach, specializing in trauma bond recovery and abuse education, who helps clients from all walks of life overcome challenges stemming from traumatic partnerships. She has published an online self-guided course, The Trauma Bond Recovery Course, and several books, The Trauma Bond Recovery Journal, and Surviving to Thriving: A Six-Step Blueprint to Narcissistic Abuse Healing and Recovery.
With 7 professional certifications and her own personal experience as a survivor of narcissistic abuse, her expertise is geared towards get
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00:00:04:16 - 00:00:23:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
One of the dynamics that doesn't get enough attention is the toxic mother daughter relationship. Well, today, Alex Anderson, independent filmmaker, joins me to talk about why he featured this particularly complicated relationship in his movie, Fog.
00:00:23:17 - 00:00:50:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I'm so thrilled to be joined by Alex Anderson today, the independent film director out in New York who created a fascinating film about a relationship, a mother daughter relationship that's very difficult, very toxic. so thank you so much for being here with me, Alex. I deeply appreciate it. Why don't you tell people a little bit about the film so that they know what context we're talking about, and then we can get into why you made this film the way that you did, why you were so attracted to this topic.
00:00:51:00 - 00:01:38:02
Alex Anderson
Yeah. No problem. Thank you so much for having me. the brief synopsis I would say is the film opens with a, a television writer who is in therapy. And they recently started going to therapy because the death of their father. And while there, they're in the early stages of uncovering that they have a toxic relationship with their mother. And it's a mother daughter. And she has come to, the conclusion in therapy that the relationship is probably unsalvageable and that the only course of action is to go no contact. And so that is where we start is she has written a no contact letter to her mother.
00:01:38:05 - 00:02:09:23
Alex Anderson
She does feel the need to go home to spread her father's ashes and have closure there. And so she goes. home to spread her father's ashes. And while she's home, she kind of becomes unclear whether she wants to continue to go. No contact with her mother. And that's kind of the crux of what the movie is about, is her trying to make the difficult choice, the horrendous choice of, what type of relationship she wants to have with her mother moving forward.
00:02:10:03 - 00:02:29:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
the trailer alone. Just tore me to pieces. I mean, the way that you did that was so powerful with, I think it's a voice overlay of her reading her no contact letter as she's going through, like. And, I mean, I feel emotional just even thinking about it was just gripping and the movie I found so compelling. so I have a lot of questions about it.
00:02:29:21 - 00:02:33:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
What got you interested in this particular dynamic?
00:02:33:05 - 00:03:04:22
Alex Anderson
Yeah, no. Great question. And as a writer, it's funny how the kernel of an idea can evolve over time, because the original intention wasn't to write a no contact movie. The original intention wasn't a narcissistic mother daughter, per se. The original kernel of the idea was, you know, I started as a stand up comedian. moved, I moved to New York City to do comedy. And then it kind of evolved into, writing jobs, etc.. and then transitioning to indie filmmaking.
00:03:04:22 - 00:03:22:19
Alex Anderson
And the original kernel of the idea was kind of where does comedy come from? And I was home and I was like, man, I do my best and I have I have a great family and I'm not no contact. I like to make that clear, but I was like, man, I do my best, whatever it is like.
00:03:22:19 - 00:03:53:19
Alex Anderson
It stirs up childhood stuff. I do my best writing when I'm home. And that was kind of how it happened. And I've witnessed this relationship with women friends of mine. And as I was kind of working on this idea I couldn't believe some of the stuff that women for, like a few women friends of mine have had these complex relationships, with their mothers, and they would share some of these horrific things, that had happened to them. And, to an outside observer, it's like, why would you continue?
00:03:53:19 - 00:04:11:21
Alex Anderson
Like, this is horrendous, you know? And there was a specific instance where I remember a friend of mine telling me something horrible that, her mother had done to her, and she's like, I'm never talking to her again. And then, 3 to 4 months later, I'm seeing social media posts of a nice beach day with her and her mom you know,
00:04:11:21 - 00:04:34:01
Alex Anderson
and so these are kind of the seeds, that were planted and, I had the lead, Amanda Van Nostren who's an excellent actor based here in New York. I thought she was great, and I wanted her to play the comedy writer. And so it kind of evolved, and and the exploration of, like, where does comedy come from? Was kind of lost. As I did research on narcissistic relationships,
00:04:34:01 - 00:05:15:01
Alex Anderson
I found out about F.O.G., and fear, obligation, guilt. and it's, crazy. I remember, like, reading stuff, like that therapists would say of, like, the children of, alcoholics, they have no guilt over cutting out a parent. Right? it is so clear. And they hate them. And it's like they're out of my life, and that's that. And good riddance. Where as the child of a narcissist. they've had to deal with so much propaganda and they've had to deal with so much like what was good, what was bad, you know, and they've been told this story over and over and over again, that they have a very, very hard time letting that go.
00:05:15:07 - 00:05:33:17
Alex Anderson
It doesn't matter how much evidence is stacked. and. Yeah. And so basically, as I was doing the, research, into this, kind of learning more because my friends would tell me things and that's kind of what clued me in. But like, we didn't go into the depths of this, and that's where I learned about fear, obligation, guilt and the concept of fog And,
00:05:33:20 - 00:05:49:03
Alex Anderson
and there are basically no good solutions here, it's kind of what level of contact do you want to have? And none of the options are good. It's not getting fixed. it's a horrific situation and there are no winners and that's how the story evolved. Yeah.
00:05:49:03 - 00:06:07:12
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I forgot how she had the dilemma. The main character, the protagonist, had the dilemma that she was trying to write for a series, TV series. And meanwhile she's trying to do it at home while she's got this situation at dealing with her father's ashes. But what I found was so compelling was exactly what you're describing, was The confusion.
00:06:07:12 - 00:06:26:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And it's even. I love the fact that you named it fog. I know that fog stands for fear, obligation, and guilt, which even that is really powerful. But there is a fogginess that happens in these relationships. I'm a narcissistic abuse survivor myself, came from a toxic family my own. Childhood was very, very difficult and what I experienced in these relationships,
00:06:26:04 - 00:06:47:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
any type of a narcissistic relationship is this tug pull that you experienced with this individual, that there is the obligation part, the fact that you're compassionate, that you understand that they've got difficulties. You see the deficit, you see the potential, what could be. And I thought you portrayed it so powerfully in this movie that she's getting wooed back, you know, seduced back into the relationship.
00:06:47:21 - 00:07:00:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And it's interesting. You also introduced her brother as another character that adds the tension, who is sort of like, well, I don't see what the issue is. I'm not having a problem with this person, which is so typical of these types of relationships.
00:07:00:15 - 00:07:27:06
Alex Anderson
Absolutely. Yeah. that adds to, you know, you're the person who is experienced all of this, who, you know, the brother character was very important to this because, that happens all the time. Right. If, when, you know, in doing this is that you're already having a hard enough time realizing it. Right. And then you have this person who you love, who you who didn't. You know, you have a good relationship with you, telling you the exact opposite,
00:07:27:10 - 00:07:49:08
Alex Anderson
you know, and telling, you know, they're great. You know, all the good things. And it's just this other version, you know, because they are still are firmly in the fog, you know, and there's just this gravitational pull, to keep you in the fog and not see things clearly you know, and I wrote the back stories, I did label these things for the actors see.
00:07:49:13 - 00:08:10:21
Alex Anderson
So there was no confusion of, like, just a list of, like, horrific things that they did. It's not that there's no, you know, hey, were abused. Okay. all of these things happened, they still don't see things clearly. because also I wanted to show because it's it is gray. Because there is also some love there, you know, there is love. it doesn't mean you have to subject yourself to it,
00:08:10:21 - 00:08:29:21
Alex Anderson
but there, you know, I'd I mean, you could really get into it. And I'm not a therapist, but like, does the mother love the daughter, you know, or does she love what she brings to her? and so she shows her love as a way to get what she needs from her. I mean, it's a whole I, you know, it's out of my pay grade, but that's.
00:08:29:21 - 00:08:49:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
yeah, that's where I spent years studying it as a psychologist. Yeah. Actually it is a complex situation. that's a really good point. I think the answer is, is both. I mean, the mother loves to the best degree that she knows how, but it's a it's a very inadequate it's a deficit kind of love. That here's the thing that I've realized it's forces those in the relationship with the toxic individual
00:08:49:15 - 00:09:10:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
doesn't matter whether you're daughter, you're the, brother or you're the partner of this person, it forces you in this terrible decision between deciding the connectedness with this individual over your own personal safety. Yes. You're being constantly put into this bind of having to choose whether it's a form of betrayal. The person who's toxic will feel betrayed if you don't stay connected.
00:09:10:13 - 00:09:39:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And boy, did you powerfully show that at the end of that movie. That scene was who I mean, horrible, but also you could think about what will it cost Jane. But nearly everything when it comes to her own integrity to stay connected to her mom. And that's such a terrible decision that we have to stand on. Is that choice? Where is it forced? And it's literally like an edge. Like a cliff that you're forced to either choose your own protection or you choose this relationship,
00:09:39:16 - 00:09:42:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
but you do it. You lose yourself in the process.
00:09:42:01 - 00:10:05:07
Alex Anderson
So the trailer on TikTok got a lot of traction, which was great. Which I'm happy about, but it also and got a lot of, you know, mainly women who have experienced this, but it also got a lot of, parents who have had their children go no contact to them. And so I get a lot of hate, from parents reaching out to me, and just saying awful things.
00:10:05:07 - 00:10:23:16
Alex Anderson
and I'm not callous. I have some empathy for them. You know, that's a whole complex thing of why they are the way they are. You know, it's, you know, again, you would know better than I, but, you know, they've usually experienced trauma it's not good how this is made, and I've said on some comments in some posts and I now just try and not comment with them.
00:10:23:17 - 00:10:24:01
Alex Anderson
I don't
00:10:24:01 - 00:10:25:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
think that's probably the wisest not to
00:10:25:22 - 00:10:31:18
Alex Anderson
comment. Oh, no, I don't want anything to do with these people. It's not the group of people you want coming after.
00:10:31:19 - 00:10:36:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You mean you're not going to win again? Now that you're back on, you're on the edge. You're not going to win, you know?
00:10:36:23 - 00:11:03:12
Alex Anderson
No, exactly. but I try and tell them like and especially with daughters. They don't want to do this like this is not like like this is not an easy choice. and I had, you know, the woman who played, the mother who's an excellent, you know, she's Juilliard trained, she's been on Broadway. She's excellent. And, you know, she did grill me about certain things in the script before shooting. because she was like, Why would any daughter keep, coming around? And
00:11:03:12 - 00:11:24:03
Alex Anderson
it's like, look, every daughter has one mother, right? And there's only one chance at every daughter wants the love of their mother. Right. And there's a certain way, I think a mother can look at a daughter that you know. She only looks a certain way in her mother's eye. You know, she doesn't get that from anywhere else. and she only has one shot at that relationship,
00:11:24:03 - 00:11:38:12
Alex Anderson
She'll do anything to make it work, that's all she wants. And so that's why she keeps coming around every daughter wants to have a great relationship with their mother. they're rooting for that. You know, if they did this, you did something, you know?
00:11:38:14 - 00:12:01:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. I saw that most poignantly back when I was working in a psychiatric facility, and I was, working with children. And I had one of my clients was, which is about 6 or 7 years old. He had actually attempted suicide, because he got so desperate and hopeless with the relationship. And his mom would come and visit him, and you would think it was Christmas Day, that he was so hopeful for that connectedness with her again.
00:12:01:21 - 00:12:22:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And this is a woman that just didn't have the resources. I mean, I'm not saying she had a cluster B personality disorder, but she just lacked a lot of internal resources to really know how to show up for it. But she never gave up, hoping that she could somehow show up differently in the future. And I'll tell you, it just broke my heart because you knew that this wasn't going to work out well for either one of them.
00:12:22:21 - 00:12:30:06
Alex Anderson
No, no. It's horrible. Yeah. It's horrible. it's like, you know, I said this earlier, there are no good solutions.
00:12:30:08 - 00:12:49:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
No, the no contact parents, the parents were protesting that no contact to me. The fact that they're protesting shows the lack of empathy. It's because as a mom and I've gone through my people who know my story know my story because it's, you know, they they know I was widowed and after my husband passed away, one of my kids stopped talking to me for a year.
00:12:49:02 - 00:13:06:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Literally no contact on Mother's Day. No contact on my birthday. Yeah, I saw him at Christmas, but, you know, he stood way off in distance. I have sons, I don't have daughters, but I respected that. knew it wasn't deserved. I knew that we just went through a horrible tragedy as a family, and that the rage that we were all feeling was related to grief.
00:13:06:05 - 00:13:28:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But I supported his decision because it with his decision and they cared about him. We did come back together around another huge, awful tragedy that at least worked out positively. My oldest son also got cancer and was very gravely ill, and the son that wasn't speaking to me, were roommates, so he was living with them and experience firsthand what it was like to have somebody close potentially dying.
00:13:28:10 - 00:13:44:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And he pulled me out with this private conversation because, mom, I was really angry at you. And I stopped talking. And now I get it. I get what happened, and I'm really sorry. And I said to him, you know what? Your feelings were justified. What happened to you was wrong. And unfortunately, I didn't have a better way through it.
00:13:44:16 - 00:14:06:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But you lost. You lost me. You lost your dad. And that rage you felt was justified. But what I noticed with parents who are really enraged around that experience is that they're still missing the essential piece, which is the child's experience. Yes, it's an adult child's experience, but they have their version. We should care about their version. It's has realistic roots to it.
00:14:06:09 - 00:14:17:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Just like my son's rage with me had realistic roots to it that I couldn't change, but still made a painful. I think that's what we often miss. We just want my version and my pain to be The focus here?
00:14:17:18 - 00:14:22:22
Alex Anderson
Absolutely. No, absolutely. And I'm sorry you went through all that. And I'm glad you know he came back.
00:14:23:14 - 00:14:31:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. Yeah yeah. No you didn't complete remission so thank God for that. But yeah. do, you know, a cognitive dissonance had you come across it when you were reading about all the is you're prepping for this?
00:14:31:09 - 00:14:33:14
Alex Anderson
I believe so, yes. Yes.
00:14:33:15 - 00:14:50:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You did a great job of showing that, which is that ambivalence that you kind of described in the movie where she's written the letter. I mean, that was the part at first it's like, well, maybe she hadn't written it. No, no, you start out, it's chronological. She's written this letter, she's going to terminate contact with her mom, but she goes home for one more time.
00:14:50:04 - 00:15:10:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
The therapist even says this is a smart idea. She think this is a smart idea, so she goes home. But this letter exists. this plan exists. And then you see her getting work back in, and then she again kind of reaffirms the plan. But that wooing process, that hot and cold, that it's so typical what happens in these relationships that lead victims so absolutely confused.
00:15:10:11 - 00:15:27:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I wondered if it was hard for you to sort of because here's a push back I get as a creator who talks about my experience and other people's experiences. We like to think making a decision, should be simpler, and we like to pretend that we don't need people, and that connectedness isn't important, so that if somebody burns us, we should just be done with them.
00:15:27:08 - 00:15:29:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But it isn't that simple or direct.
00:15:29:06 - 00:15:48:01
Alex Anderson
No, no, it's not, everything we just talked about, you know, the boy who wanted the love there's this connection, and you can have other strong connections in your life, but, you know, you have one mom. Yeah. And that's it. You're not replacing your mom. the cognitive dissonance. I mean, that was something I very much wanted to show
00:15:48:03 - 00:15:57:22
Alex Anderson
You know, It's a funny movie in that people who have gone through this a lot is happening right? Like they're noticing all these really small, subtle things.
00:15:57:23 - 00:15:58:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yes.
00:15:58:13 - 00:16:26:03
Alex Anderson
People who haven't, like, I have friends, like guy friends of mine who think I made the most boring movie of all time. And and I have guy friends who also loved it, who have no experience. But like, I have guy friends who couldn't finish it. And it was really as a filmmaker, like I still wanted to entertain. And so it was a, you know, and that's partially, you know, the runtime is short. but I wanted this to work for not just people who have gone through this experience.
00:16:26:03 - 00:16:30:13
Alex Anderson
And so, you know, there is a little bit of a slow burn element
00:16:30:13 - 00:16:46:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
for there is I had not thought I mean, I'm a writer, you know, that I wrote a memoir. It's so I do know what you're struggling with is the issue of pacing, you know, how fast do you pace the story? Yes. I thought the pacing was perfect, honestly, because if I do analyze, like, how great was that plot? Did that like, move along? Or is it like, no,
00:16:46:18 - 00:17:05:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I thought the pacing was perfect, but you're right, there was multiple layers going on in the slow section. It really actually, if you're aware, it wasn't slow, But it could feel slow to somebody who wasn't getting her conflict with herself around work, per conflict with the relationship with her brother. The fact is, she's still grieving her dad. The fact that she can't tell what's real or not real about her mom.
00:17:05:09 - 00:17:07:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I mean, all of that's happening at the time.
00:17:07:23 - 00:17:17:23
Alex Anderson
Yeah, absolutely. things like a buddy of mine might watch the mom writing and think nothing of it, but it's actually kind of an aggressive act. You know,
00:17:18:01 - 00:17:19:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I like. Yeah, I was very passive aggressive.
00:17:19:22 - 00:17:35:08
Alex Anderson
Yeah. Very. It's like, oh, you're entering her domain and like having this weird, subtle competition thing with my daughter and you know. And what then when you bring it up to your brother, he dismisses it and it's like, no, no, like that she you know what? Like, oh,
00:17:35:08 - 00:18:01:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
you nailed it. and mothers and daughters do that a lot. Yeah, they do that a lot where there is this funny. I mean, I'm not saying there's not mirroring and a lot of narcissistic relationship there is. But mothers and daughters have a particular time trying to separate their identity because of this merging thing that happens and where the daughter feels like she can't have her own identity because mom keeps intruding like becomes friends with her boyfriend, starts dressing like her, takes on, you know, all of this.
00:18:01:01 - 00:18:26:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
In fact, one of the horrible cases back in graduate school was another colleague of mine. A student of mine had a dynamic like that between a mother and daughter. And the daughter suicided successfully. That was the only way she found that she could find separation was by death. Awful. Yeah. So that type that I thought you just that was perfect, that invasion into the daughter's world by adopting her hobby or her lifestyle was like she said, it was perfect.
00:18:26:03 - 00:18:34:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Here's a question, though I didn't know for sure if the mom was narcissistic or borderline personality disorder. And I wondered how you sort of I
00:18:34:01 - 00:19:00:07
Alex Anderson
yeah, that's a great question. So I it's purposely ambiguous. Okay. In that, you know, because there are some overlapping traits. Yes. There. and when I was doing my research on it, there is a borderline that kind of is like the archetype of the queen. That's one of the border. But that can also be narcissistic. Yeah. and I had help from, a therapist friend of mine in terms of what a therapist would say, which is like, hey, I can't diagnose your mom, right?
00:19:00:07 - 00:19:09:17
Alex Anderson
She does exhibit these. You know, I tried to let it be both, and not label it. I think it might be more narcissistic, but it's. I mean, you know, it's tricky
00:19:09:18 - 00:19:16:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Well, I was like, do I think she's a borderline when I finished her? I think she's a borderline because of the explosion, the volatility.
00:19:16:08 - 00:19:16:22
Alex Anderson
Yes.
00:19:16:23 - 00:19:32:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
That felt to me very more borderline ish than I felt. Narcissistic narcissists tend to just get into a cold rage They do more guilting and backstabbing, and they are called revenge. Kind of But that blow up was whew, was. Yes. Just awful powerful.
00:19:32:20 - 00:19:34:07
Alex Anderson
Yeah it's atrocious.
00:19:34:12 - 00:19:34:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It's know.
00:19:34:17 - 00:19:36:12
Alex Anderson
No. And filming that was insane.
00:19:36:17 - 00:19:49:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Oh I bet I bet yeah. So a wrap up today. do you think that the daughter maintains no contact? I mean, if you were to, like, Jared, if we could peek into her life a year later, how resolved do you think Jane got at the end of the movie,
00:19:49:20 - 00:20:21:01
Alex Anderson
you know, it's funny because, I don't think I'm going to do this, but never say never. I love the actors. I loved working with them. And I think they're so great. And I love them as a family. They just felt like a family to me. And, you know, I love the scenes with with Jane and her brother. Like, I have made jokes, about turning this into a trilogy and and maybe, you know, I don't know if you've seen the before, sunset, trilogy. Like, with, that Richard Linklater made with Ethan Hawke, and I don't know, I know I had it. Yeah, but
00:20:21:01 - 00:20:41:04
Alex Anderson
they're very good. But they made three movies, like ten, 12 years apart. and I was thinking if you were going to do that, you could do one called, like, guilt, like ten years where she has a daughter and she thinks she should meet her. And then maybe a third one called obligation, where her mom's dying. And that's why I think it's a happy ending.
00:20:41:04 - 00:20:51:15
Alex Anderson
I mean, in a horrible sense The thing is, I think she leaves and maintains no contact. That's that's what I think. But I, you know, it's when you make these things, it's up to everyone to kind of make that decision.
00:20:51:18 - 00:20:52:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yes it is.
00:20:52:22 - 00:21:08:05
Alex Anderson
Yeah. It's that that's kind of where my head was at. Was not like that. She, she, you know, just to work on something kind of dark like, you know, and have it be, you know, it doesn't feel like a happy ending. But I think she sees things very clearly. Yeah. You know, in that moment, I mean,
00:21:08:10 - 00:21:15:02
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
yeah, it felt that way to me, too. But I also know it's never that simple. I mean, it's it's a problem with these relationships. It's never that
00:21:15:02 - 00:21:34:06
Alex Anderson
simple. No. And that's where the joke of a trilogy. Yeah. It's, you know. Yeah. And and unfortunately, there's more facets to this. Type of relationship that we could explore. Right? You know, it's not, you know, we just kind of got into a couple, you know, it's there's a lot going on. And now we have a grandchild.
00:21:34:06 - 00:21:54:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or even just that. Yeah. He's a woman grows that or anybody has developmental stages. We have different needs and then different needs. Then compelled desires. It means we want connected with other people in a different way. Or did we work. What was it done before. So yeah, absolutely. thank you so much. First of all, for making the film a deeply, deeply touched me.
00:21:54:06 - 00:22:12:23
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I really appreciated having you reach out and offer this opportunity to get to meet you and talk to you about it. I want to jump over to the podcast extra. Let's talk about maybe some of the biggest questions people had, or that you struggled with when you were making the film as you were trying to, like, really dive into a narcissistic relationship between a mother and a daughter.
00:22:13:02 - 00:22:22:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
let's do that. But thank you so much for being here on this. So how can people find the movie? And I'm going to make sure I put it in the show notes and learn a little bit more about you and your work.
00:22:22:02 - 00:22:42:04
Alex Anderson
Appreciate that. Yeah. You can watch it on. There's a free streaming service called Tubi. I also watch it's available in like America and Canada and Australia. I also did put it on my YouTube channel because there's there, you know, international people, if they want to watch, search for Alex Anderson, it should pop up my website. It's also, you know, everything is on my website.
00:22:42:04 - 00:22:52:20
Alex Anderson
Alex anderson.tv. Okay. Yeah, yeah, if you want. Right. For the love of God, if someone could follow me on social media, that's that's how they make me. That's how they cast and make movies now. But the pressure. Yeah,
00:22:52:20 - 00:22:58:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I don't post it on. Yeah, I know, I don't know what it would be like to be in your position today. It's. That must be really tough.
00:22:58:15 - 00:23:00:02
Alex Anderson
It's a wild industry.
00:23:00:04 - 00:23:25:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. I have a feeling it it is. But thank you so much, Alex. I really deeply appreciate it. It's been wonderful. You. And we're going to jump over to the podcast right now. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kery McAvoy Ph.D. Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com.
00:23:25:05 - 00:23:32:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.
