Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Constantly second-guessing yourself, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or finding your footing after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join mental health experts Dr. Kerry McAvoy and Lisa Sonni as they uncover the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. From understanding destructive personalities and their manipulative tactics to exploring the stages of abuse and how to rebuild after the damage, you’ll gain the clarity and tools needed to break free and heal.
If you’re ready to reclaim your self-worth and discover the path to emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Why Sex Goes Wrong in a Narcissistic Relationship: An Interview with Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Toxic relationships tremendously impact our emotional selves, but what about our sexual selves?
Dr. Lisha Antiqua, an expert in sexual intimacy and soul psychology, joins us to discuss how common toxic dynamics in narcissistic relationships, such as objectification and transactional relationships, diminish our intimate connection with one another. She also defines the importance of healthy interpersonal and sexual boundaries.
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Kerry McAvoy, PhD
More About Dr. Kerry
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.
EP 110 - Why Sex Goes Wrong in a Narcissistic Relationship: An Interview with Dr. Lisha Antiqua
00:00:04:11 - 00:00:22:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Is sexual intimacy healthy in a toxic relationship? To address that question, Doctor Lisha Antiqua joins me today to talk about sexuality and intimacy in healthy and unhealthy relationships.
00:00:22:17 - 00:00:42:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I'm so thrilled to be joined today by doctor Lisha Antiqua thank you so much for being here. She has a interesting sort of mix. She's a social media content creator, which is how I came across her. But she also has a coaching, mentorship program in social psychology and an expert in sex and relationships, which is what we're going to dive into today,
00:00:42:07 - 00:00:53:14
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
going to talk about what happens in a toxic relationship, what happens to the intimacy So first of all, Doctor Alicia, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your expertise and how you got interested in this?
00:00:53:15 - 00:01:27:23
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Thank you so much, Dr Kerry. It's wonderful to be here. Thank everybody listening. I hope that you get a lot out of this conversation. And feel free to message me, on social media or at my website info@LiciaAntiqua.com. Do you have any questions about what we talk about? So a bit about me as I, began my journey to end the cycle of abuse in my family when I was 18 months old, And I turned my, stepdad in when I was 13. And that's when we actually got, like into the therapeutic methodology and all of that.
00:01:27:23 - 00:01:53:16
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
But I grew up very much around people that supported, spirituality and, more of what we now call the quantum world. And I grew up in Boulder, Colorado, which is very proactive and sounds true and all that stuff. So when I was healing from being abused as a child, I was part of these communities that were doing breathwork and doing things that were working more with the soul.
00:01:53:16 - 00:02:12:22
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
So that's how social psychology really came to be. Another big piece that happened was when I was 13, one of my, last adolescent abusers. I was at the horse stables in a 40 year old man saying, oh, I want you to be my girlfriend, and tried to kiss me. And I was time locked in a stable up. This doesn't trigger anybody.
00:02:12:22 - 00:02:31:02
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And I ran out. Somehow I got out. I have no idea to this moment, to this day. Like how I got out of the stables. I ran to this place called Dry Lake. I was sitting there sobbing, and I figure we'll call it God appeared in front of me and said, go home and tell. And we'll be talking a lot about that today,
00:02:31:02 - 00:02:51:05
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
that statement. go home and tell her I went home. I told my adopted dad I like to really protect my biological father. They're my adopted dad. What happened? He went and took care of. Man's name was Al and I'm just going to use it. He went took care of Al. To this day, my mother and I have no idea what happened Al al, but we didn't see him again. That
00:02:51:05 - 00:03:16:12
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And within a week, what my father had done to me, what that man had done to me came out. And all the other experiences that I had had since my childhood. That was generational abuse going back. And both sides of the family started talking about it. Both sides of the family started healing from this generation and all abuse both. My stepfather's Oglala Lakota side and my mom's side of the family.
00:03:16:12 - 00:03:29:01
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
and the healing started. So that's really where this all came from. I got cancer when I was 21. I wanted to be a naturopathic doctor because, I just thought that was really cool. And somehow I ended up in psychology and the rest is history.
00:03:29:04 - 00:03:49:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
it's been a long coming healing process. I can share that this has been a a journey for you. So often people. And this is a common thing that I hear when I meet people who are in abusive relationship, don't realize that the abuse does not just go beyond what's happening to the day to day life. It's not just the course of control, But there's also forms of sexual abuse.
00:03:49:04 - 00:03:58:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But we often don't recognize the sexual abuse. So first of all let's help broaden that definition. So people kind of realized what are the boundaries of healthy sexual interactions.
00:03:58:09 - 00:04:28:22
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Yeah, absolutely. And it's all different. So I want everybody to know like sex really shows up and 100 different ways. Everybody has a sexual identity and intimacy is “Into me, see.” So oftentimes when we're in an abusive relationship, what you're going to find first is that “Into me” is not “seen.” Your personhood is discounted, taken away or stolen. Now, that could be in the bedroom. It could be out of the bedroom.
00:04:28:22 - 00:04:50:11
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And that's still sexual abuse if that’s your main person you're having sex with now, sexual abuse is cheating on you. We don't think about that as sexual abuse, but it definitely is sexual abuse. Sexual abuse is withholding sex from you as a punishment, right? Women do this to men more often than men. Women historically. But it's sexual abuse.
00:04:50:17 - 00:05:10:14
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Sexual abuse obviously is coercion. I think we're talking about that more, but it's very misunderstood caution when they're pressuring you into it. And this is kind of the opposite. Well, I don't want to give it to you. And then they react to coercion. Coercion. So. It's not that you can't say no. This is really important to understand.
00:05:10:14 - 00:05:28:11
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
That's not what I'm saying at all. We get to say no. It needs to be safe to say no. I'm not in the mood and not be met with coercion and also not have sex be I'm not going to give it to you. I'm saying no to punish you. Those are two very, very different things. So it's really about that intention.
00:05:28:11 - 00:05:49:12
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
The other thing that happens often, and I work with and help a lot of survivors of sexual abuse, I do a lot of trainings and work with people that are working with people now. But I still do have a, small practice where I work with people on a coaching level that has experienced sexual abuse, that are reclaiming their identity.
00:05:49:12 - 00:06:17:02
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And oftentimes when it comes to sex, what we don't talk about in therapy, the big gap that I found in therapy is we don't talk about finding your own likes and dislikes. And if you were sexually abused as a child, then that's taken away from you before you even got started. So going back and relearning how you like it and what you like and why you like things, and really cleaning out any shame or guilt is also really important.
00:06:17:02 - 00:06:26:04
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
So then that can't be used against you, because shame and guilt and fear are usually what's used against people when they're in an abusive relationship.
00:06:26:04 - 00:06:52:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So what I hear you saying, and I loved the way that you used the word intimacy to say into me, you see, I love that. Is it. It's that that I'm struggling with even saying this, but that sexual abuse, I mean, because the word abuse to me feel really strong. But dysfunction starts to happen when two people don't show up as two full people in this relationship either it's transactional or it's scripted or it's coercive or it's not consensual and mutual.
00:06:52:15 - 00:07:05:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I guess I would also expand that as well, is where something's happening to somebody outside of their control, or maybe their comfort zone, or if they're being forced into it. But do you think people recognize that that aspect of the relationship is dysfunctional?
00:07:06:01 - 00:07:32:07
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
No, I don't think so. Oftentimes, if you're raised and the use of environment and sex was part of that abusive environment, then it's really hard to recognize the abuse because it's always been transactional. You've always been objectified. In my dissertation, I called it object identity disorder, and You have borderline and narcissistic tendencies in that disorder, but really it's you just trying to say, look, I'm human. I have a choice.
00:07:32:07 - 00:07:56:18
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
But not feeling it and not believing it and not having that solid ground to stand on because you were always objectified. Now, this could be a slave mentality as well, So we do it for safety, we do it for security, right? We do it because the Bible says that we have to submit to our man. We do it because it's the right thing to do. Or we don't do it because of all of those same reasons, right?
00:07:57:00 - 00:08:19:14
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
It can go both ways, which makes it very, very confusing for people. So I really separate to what, we look at as normal. Is not normal when it comes to sex or any relationship. I think normal is not the goal. Healthy is the goal. And the we can be healthy. Yeah, right. Normal is whatever we experienced. So for me, growing up right
00:08:19:16 - 00:08:20:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
is familiar. You know.
00:08:20:22 - 00:08:42:14
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Yeah, normal is familiar. So if you're seeking out normal and you're leaning in to normal and you want a normal relationship, you're in one. Like that's the first thing to realize. I'm in a normal relationship. This is the toleration that I'm I'm having. This is the level of toleration I'm having for a lot of survivors of abuse that have been in this situation before.
00:08:42:16 - 00:09:14:16
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
We have a high, high, high, high, high to high level, acceptance. Right. Yeah. And we have compassion for people. Oh, I understand that. Right. And then you might have some guilt. So for sexual abuse survivors. Not always, but I would say 90% of the time you're one way or the other, either hyper or hypo. And you might fluctuate in a relationship. But if you're in your hyper space of normal, then you might want it 2 or 3 times a day, and that's fine.
00:09:14:16 - 00:09:36:02
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And that's it. And a lot of times this is how we get with the narcissists, because that love bombing is happening at the beginning of a relationship, and we just walk right into it because we have a high, high, high level of sexuality. And then at the same time, that's our normal at the same time, then the guilt, then the brainwashing, then the isolation, then you're not good enough,
00:09:36:02 - 00:09:57:06
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
then that cross triangulation starts happening mainly with the church, is what I hear often, right? Oh well, you wouldn't be doing this if you were this or you're cheating on me when you're not right because you're you don't have sex as much or something. These things start happening and then the guilt in the shame take over. And then you go into the hypo, which is, I don't want to do it.
00:09:57:06 - 00:10:24:05
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
I'm not feeling it. Creepy crawlies. The flashbacks, they're not good or not this right that I'm objectifying. So I have to come in and all of that blocks us from actually facing it because we feel like we're wrong. Either way. And so that's what I like to help people realize. Like, you're not wrong either way, and to recognize what you want sexually and be able to ask for that is healthy, to recognize what's going to hurt somebody.
00:10:24:05 - 00:10:26:16
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And if that's something that you're into, you need help,
00:10:26:19 - 00:10:43:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
right? Right. Do you think that toxic personality types and I'm thinking of the clustered be particularly have approach to intimacy in a kind of a unique way or even maybe it's it's sort of standardized way. Is that a fair assessment to say? And if so, what do you think it looks like?
00:10:43:21 - 00:11:05:21
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Well, the cluster Bs don't have an “into me to see” Yeah, I mean, that's the whole point. So the narcissist will look at the their partner and they'll be like, what you need to do X, Y and Z to please me and do it this particular way because it's about me, not because it's about them, but because the reflection of the person that they're with, they think is them. Right?
00:11:05:23 - 00:11:25:00
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And then we'll just go to the other side. We're not going to go into the big S's in the big H's like our outer realms, there. Stay with the borderline. Right. But we'll go to the borderline side and they're like, I need to do this to make you happy. I need to do this. To do this, I need that or it's all about the other person has nothing to do with them.
00:11:25:00 - 00:11:44:15
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
It's all about, I need to have sex ten times a day. So you're happy I need to do this so you feel loved. I need to do this right. And they have no consideration for themselves at all. Okay. And so neither of those aspects are healthy. Neither of them are the “into me to see” both need, an end to me to see
00:11:44:15 - 00:12:03:14
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
and an opinion on their sexual hunger, their likes and their dislikes, their erotic blueprints. They're awakening to their own sensual and sexual desires. And then that safe space to play in that without shame, without guilt. And that's where healing happens.
00:12:03:16 - 00:12:22:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I notice that cluster bees tend to rush sexual intimacy, and I think part of it is, because they're taking advantage of the rapid connection, rapid building of, of a bond so that you feel like there's something here. It's almost a form of pseudo intimacy. Is that something you also have seen, or do you do you have a different opinion on that?
00:12:23:01 - 00:12:43:21
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
I agree with you 100%. Yeah. We rush into it and one is because we want to film that intimacy too. I think a big thing that I find in my clients and I definitely experienced this myself. I was never diagnosed with a cluster B, but I definitely been in narcissistic relationships and I have C PTSD for sure, which is quite similar.
00:12:43:21 - 00:13:07:02
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And and I also had hyper sexuality and as a way of expression and didn't know how to tell my body. No. And then would get terrified when I wanted to say no because I was scared of the punishment I would have gotten as a child, and so with that. I kind of can relate to this myself too, and I just want to be open and vulnerable in that way with with the audience.
00:13:07:02 - 00:13:25:00
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
But what happens is we ration the sex because we don't want to be rejected. right. We don't want to be rejected. We want to be fun. We want to be liked. We want to be loved. And and so more so especially, I think what the cluster B's, the narcissists want to be chosen and they want to conquer, right?
00:13:25:00 - 00:13:41:17
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
They want to conquer and they want to like you're mine. Yeah. You saying sex would be. Yeah. Dominate. Yeah, but that's what sex looks like. And for the cluster B, it's more like, I want you to love me. or that borderline. It's like, I want you to love me. I want you to choose me. Like, finally somebody is here for me.
00:13:41:17 - 00:13:48:03
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Finally somebody is going to see how wonderful I am. And we use sex in order to to do that.
00:13:48:03 - 00:14:07:23
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. And I would say the psychopath uses sex to manipulate. No, no. And the histrionic uses sex to sort of act out, you know, look at me, look at me. How am I really wonderful? And aren't I so beautiful so that. Yeah, that's how I would see them all doing that. What it concerns me about sexuality in today's world, particularly in the dating app world, is that it feels like it's really gone off the rails.
00:14:07:23 - 00:14:25:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
That almost to me, the dating apps have feel like it's become a catalog. It's some people, not everybody, but some people are viewing it as a catalog for intimacy instead of catalog or a relationship. And I even use the word intimacy bothers me because it's really not intimacy. It's actually a catalog for transaction instead of a catalog for a relationship.
00:14:25:19 - 00:14:51:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. What what I get free of is that we're building a culture. People who don't know what intimacy is, they've actually never experienced. They've just experienced transactional connection. That's really objectifying. How can someone recognize if that's happening to them? Say that you're a newbie to this, you're a novice. You're not very experienced. How can you recognize that this person is approaching something from a transactional perspective versus a healthier perspective?
00:14:51:21 - 00:15:20:13
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
I think the first thing is on those first couple dates, like really watch. Are they comfortable with you asking questions about what you're looking for in a partner in a relationship, and understand that the relationship is you? Then and the relationship? Yeah, right. And in the first couple dates there's a you and there's a then if you're not allowed to talk about what you each want in a relationship without making it about your relationship.
00:15:20:15 - 00:15:22:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You're saying not making it personal,
00:15:22:12 - 00:15:23:00
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
not making
00:15:23:01 - 00:15:25:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
a state of a relationship in a state of relationship
00:15:25:09 - 00:15:40:09
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
I want this. And they start making it. Personal or they have reactions to it, or they try to will you in with. Oh, we could do this and we could do that. That's when I would take a step back, in all honesty. And I'm talking about the first or second.
00:15:40:13 - 00:15:41:10
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Right, right, right.
00:15:41:11 - 00:16:14:05
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Because that means that they're looking for somebody to complete them rather than coming to a relationship complete. The other thing. Yes. The other thing that I would say about dating is going in and really understanding, knowing for yourself what you want in a relationship, why you're dating and what your standards are if you don't know your own standards and dating, if you don't know your own standards for yourself because one you haven't been allowed to have any time, you haven't looked into the intimacy to see into yourself, to say, well, what am I willing to tolerate?
00:16:14:05 - 00:16:33:17
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
What am I willing to live with? What am I willing not to live with? Then you're going to let anybody walk all over you, and you'll be easily manipulated when you go in there with that, willing to let the person go. And I would say the first year and a half, be absolutely willing to look at one, two, three habits and be like, I'm out.
00:16:33:21 - 00:16:56:23
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
This is not a perfection thing because we're all going to get mad. We're all going to have a bad day If somebody is expecting you never to get mad, never have a bad day, and always look a certain way, like that's your red flag right there. Also, if a man or a woman goes into, asking them for sexual favors or doing those things before you're even meeting up, know that it's going to be a transaction and that
00:16:56:23 - 00:17:13:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
it. Yeah, yeah. That sexualization of the person even before it was like essentially you can't even fill out a short note on that individual. You don't know anything about the individual. And they're already moving to something that highly personal to me. And it's like, whoa, that's something really wrong.
00:17:13:18 - 00:17:31:09
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And it's okay. Like, here's another perspective, okay, I'm just going to throw this perspective out there if you're being transactional. And that's like that's maybe a turn on for you right. Like you're online, you kind of know that you're just trying to have fun. Like it's a transaction and you want to play with the person like that. Be honest.
00:17:31:15 - 00:17:35:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Exactly. That's what I think people say, right? See, I'm looking for casual, you know?
00:17:36:01 - 00:17:52:00
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Yeah. And and some people are and that's the case. Great. But don't go into some of these DMs that says I don't want anything casual and try to talk them into something casual because you think they're cute. Yeah. Or hot because that's objectifying.
00:17:52:00 - 00:18:09:08
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So let's get real practical for a second. Signs of objectification are what? Because I think we often talk about it sort of at the abstract realm. But I don't think people know what it looks like when it's actually happening. I mean, I think back to my relationship with their toxic partner, and I can see where it is now.
00:18:09:08 - 00:18:26:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But at the time missed it and took it like, oh, he really likes me. He thinks I'm so attractive. And now I look back and think, oh no, no, no, that's not what was happening at all. So when when you're rather naive or inexperienced, or maybe you just haven't had a broader experience, what should you be looking for that will say, this is going to be objectifying
00:18:26:15 - 00:18:44:17
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
if it is all about your body. Okay. So that's the easiest one. That's the first one. It's all about the body. Oh your picture. So cute. This is so hot. That's so hot. That is all about the object that you are. And the one true object that we have is our physicality. So there's that two when things just need to be just.
00:18:44:17 - 00:19:05:15
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
So we were talking on my radio show More than Sex and Secrets. If you want to listen to doctor Carry on it. And we were talking about hanging the hangers up. Right. Things just have to be just so. That means you're not your own person. You're an object of their identity. So that's a narcissistic view. If they take responsibility for your emotions.
00:19:05:15 - 00:19:30:02
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And this one is overlooked so much. But that's the opposite. You're getting into a relationship with a borderline. So if they're like, oh, it was my fault I did it. Oh, you feel sad? Oh, it's all about right. If they make all of that about then Oh you couldn't show up on time. Others my fault. I'm so sorry. I miscommunicated now, clearly you didn't communicate like Everybody knew
00:19:30:04 - 00:19:50:10
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
everyone was supposed to be there at seven. That person shows up at 7:15 and you're like, oh, I'm sorry. Okay, so that person that's over apologetic, that's going to be transactional to the transaction looking a little bit different that you're going to be filling their cup. If you show up, that means they're worthy. If you don't show up, that means that you're they're not worthy.
00:19:50:12 - 00:20:09:04
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Here's one of them I thought of. And that is, a person who doesn't really allow you to engage with them in the way that they're engaging with you. I could tell really early on that I was not to touch him, especially his head or is here. So I felt like I was picking up the rules really fast. It felt like he has a lot of liberties and I had very few.
00:20:09:05 - 00:20:11:17
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
It was not there wasn't there wasn't this freedom?
00:20:11:17 - 00:20:31:14
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Yeah, that is beautiful. Beautiful. So you were the object to serve him his way? Yeah. Right his way. And if it wasn't his way, then there was a consequence. And that brings us to rules, which I think is very important to understand. The rules are not boundaries. I'm sure you talk about this a lot, that rules are not boundaries. You guys.
00:20:31:14 - 00:20:48:19
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Rules are punished by by somebody and the person being punished goes to jail. They pay a fine. They have to do their chores, they have a timeout. Right? Children have rules and we have laws that are rules that in relationship there should be absolutely no rules.
00:20:48:20 - 00:20:54:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
This you know, I've never talked about that. So why don't you define the difference between boundaries and rules? Because that's a new concept.
00:20:54:16 - 00:21:14:15
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Oh cool I love this. This is one of my favorite topics because it's so important for us to understand it. So oftentimes when you grow up in abuse or you grow up objectified. You know how to follow the rules and you know how to rebel against the rules and no matter which side of the coin that you live on, it's about rules and punishment, rules and punishment and rules and consequences, rules and consequences.
00:21:14:18 - 00:21:35:06
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And the other person is in charge, right? So if you're driving down the street and you break the rule and you're speeding, the cop comes, gives you a ticket, the courts come and you have to pay the fine or go to the thing that's external rules, right? That's a rule. Boundary has nothing to do with the other. The boundary is set by you and withheld by you.
00:21:35:07 - 00:22:03:01
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
So somebody can't cross your boundaries. You can't allow them to cross your boundaries, which would be self betrayal, which is painful and hurtful and hard to heal. Right. But oftentimes we expect boundaries to be rules. Yes, yes, yes. And for somebody, including ourselves, to then punish him or her for crossing that boundary. Yeah. And that is elementary. That's elementary and that's that's legal.
00:22:03:04 - 00:22:21:13
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And that's not a relationship. A boundary is when somebody says, I don't want you to come into the kitchen when I'm cooking, because it gives me anxiety, because when I was a kid, I was abused in the kitchen. Okay, this is just my own personal example. I would tense up, my neck would start going like this. I mean, it was so clear this thing
00:22:21:16 - 00:22:41:03
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
and I was like, just don't come into the kitchen, all right? And I asked and asked and asked and my narcissist didn't care. Come up, come behind me. Right. To think, because my dad, I'd be flinching. I'd be like, right. And then I'd be guilty for having that reaction and then be this whole thing. And dinner was ruined, and it was my fault because I was too sensitive.
00:22:41:05 - 00:23:00:12
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
so I was like, okay, I'm going to learn about boundaries. The boundary was don't come into the kitchen, And then he'd come into the kitchen and then I'd get mad at him and we'd have a fight. Right. That was a rule. So take him into the kitchen. One I got permission to flinch, hit, punch, bite, whatever I needed to do to get out of that PTSD response.
00:23:00:16 - 00:23:21:05
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
So my body wasn't regurgitating that PTSD response, so I don't have that reaction anymore. I healed my PTSD, so every time that he came into the kitchen, the boundary was, if you come into the kitchen, you know that if you trigger me, I'm going to react as my nervous system wants to react so I can heal this response because I'm no longer going to carry this PTSD and shove it down and pretend like it's not happening. Right?
00:23:21:05 - 00:23:38:10
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Right. So that that was one. So that started happening. Two after that kind of went for a bit. And and I was like, I don't like that. I don't I don't have any reactions anymore. For some reason I'm, I'm not reacting anymore. My body worked that out right then. I was like, well, if you come in, that means you want to cook dinner.
00:23:38:13 - 00:23:40:11
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
And I'm I'm going to leave, right?
00:23:40:11 - 00:23:52:20
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Right. Yeah. Because that's what I was thinking up to. It's like, for example, I can't stand peas, I feed them rule could be there's no peace allowed in the House. That's a rule. But another way to approach it is if you put peas in my food, I'm not eating it. That's a boundary.
00:23:52:21 - 00:23:54:08
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
You know, it's a boundary because you're in
00:23:54:08 - 00:24:09:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
charge of it. I'm charging myself. I'm not. Make it a rule for the House, but I am. I'm protecting myself and my integrity. Yeah. So this has been really fascinating, I can tell you. And I could talk forever and there's so many different directions. I'd love to take this, before we talk about where to find you because I want to do that next.
00:24:09:11 - 00:24:25:05
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But in the podcast extra we brought up earlier, withholding coercion and withholding, which is almost like two sides of a coin. And I would love to talk about when is a no abuse and when is no just a boundary. But how can people find you if they will learn more about you?
00:24:25:07 - 00:24:49:03
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Fantastic. So I do work with, some clients really with identity and identity therapy and programs called Amazing You. And then I have another one called Reclaim Intimacy, where you can find the intimacy, reclaim your sensuality and sexuality after going through abuse and that relationship abuse so you can enter into a really beautiful boundary setting, fantastic dating life. Right?
00:24:49:03 - 00:25:14:07
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
So all of that's at my website, LishaAntiqua.com So LishaAntiqua.com. And then if you're interested in learning more about helping people, adding this to your practice, becoming a coach, learning about identity therapy and how the soul, the consciousness of a person really reacts to trauma so you can help people stand in their power.
00:25:14:07 - 00:25:21:01
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Please check out YourOwnUniversity.com where we have, school and trainings and things like that. Oh that's
00:25:21:01 - 00:25:27:13
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
rich. Thank you so much. I appreciate that, doctor. Lisha and I, I'm excited to talk about, coercion on the podcast extra.
00:25:27:16 - 00:25:30:02
Dr. Lisha Antiqua
Thank you.
00:25:30:04 - 00:25:54:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD. Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at Kerrymcavoyphd.com. if you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.
