Why Betrayal Keeps Abuse Survivors Trapped in a Victim Mindset: Interview with Dr. Debi Silber

Are you trying to heal from a betrayal? 

If you have survived a narcissistic relationship then you have experienced betrayal. Often repetitive, devastating breaches of trust.

This week, Dr. Debi Silber joins us to discuss how to rebuild renewed confidence after betrayal. She outlines the five stages of betrayal recovery as well the common pitfalls that keep survivors stalled from fully healing after abuse.   

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To learn more about Dr. Silber:

Website - https://thepbtinstitute.com

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/debisilber/?hl=en

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/debisilber

More About Dr. Silber

Dr. Debi Silber, Founder of the PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation) Institute and National Forgiveness Day (celebrated annually on September 1st), is an award-winning speaker, and a 2-time #1 International bestselling author. Her podcast: From Betrayal to Breakthrough is also globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts. Her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal made 3 groundbreaking discoveries that changed how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on FOX, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx (twice), and more, she’s dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, work, relationships, confidence, and happiness they want most.

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

00:00:04:20 - 00:00:24:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Toxic relationships are riddled with betrayal. Today, I’m talking about how to heal from betrayal. I'm being joined by Doctor Debbie Silber, the founder of Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, to share. What do betrayal do to us, as well as how we heal from it?

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:48:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, today I'm being joined by Doctor Debbie Silber, who's going to talk about betrayal. She's actually the founder of Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, and I'm fascinated by this topic because I had suffered massive betrayals myself. And yet, I know that we really haven't dived into this topic. So why don't you first introduce what a betrayal is, and maybe even share a little bit about how you got interested in it, and then we can get into the nuts and bolts of what happens when there's a betrayal?

00:00:48:20 - 00:01:07:11

Dr. Debbie Silbert

In a relationship. Sounds great. You know, I don't think anybody says, “ I think I just really want to be.” I'm just interested in the topic of betrayal. No, you said it because you have to. I'm in business for 33 years, with a health mindset and personal development. Then I had a really painful betrayal from my family. I thought I did all I needed to do to heal from that.

00:01:07:16 - 00:01:27:12

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And then it happened again. This time it was my husband. So that was the deal breaker. Got him out of the house, looked at the two experiences thinking, okay, what's going on here? You know, clearly there's something that has to change. And I'm one of those people that really believes, if nothing changes, nothing changes. So I couldn't find a book, of course, and anything to really get me out of this mess.

00:01:27:13 - 00:01:48:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

So I decided to enroll in a PHC program. And it was in transpersonal psychology, psychology of transformation, and human potential. And I really just wanted to get myself out of this mess. I didn't know how I was going to pay for it. I didn't know how I was going to find the time. I had four kids, six dogs, a thriving practice, and then it was time for a study.

00:01:48:03 - 00:02:10:16

Dr. Debbie Silbert

So I studied betrayal, and that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changes really everything we know. But to answer your question, I define betrayal as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule. And every relationship has them. So the closer we are, the more we depend on that person, the deeper the betrayal. So a child, let's say, was completely dependent on their parent.

00:02:10:20 - 00:02:14:22

Dr. Debbie Silbert

That's going to have a different impact than your best friend sharing your secret. Yeah.

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:34:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That's profound. And I love that definition because it captures it so well that we do make assumptions in a relationship. Maybe we were not aware of them, but we do make them. I'm thinking obviously the biggest one is partnership. Maybe some of us, not all of us, but there may be. If there was clarity seen, there's exclusivity and that there's going to be monogamy.

00:02:34:10 - 00:02:55:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But there are also assumptions of respect and trust and other types of things. So help me understand sort of the spectrum of betrayal, because like you just said, there is a level of different types of betrayal. I also think that childhood betrayal often goes undiscussed and unrecognized, but is probably just as deeply impactful as adult partnership betrayals.

00:02:55:17 - 00:03:20:12

Dr. Debbie Silbert

You see it so often, let's say there was some sort of betrayal in childhood. Well, then we grow into our adult lives and some of these relationships become not that they're good, they're just so familiar. We know how these work. We know where our place is. Let's just say in these relationships. And until and unless it's intentionally and deliberately looked at, we just go from relationship to relationship with these same ideas in place.

00:03:20:17 - 00:03:39:10

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And here's what's even crazier. It doesn't even have to be necessarily a betrayal in childhood. We can perceive it as one. Like, for example, let's say there's a child who has this earth-shattering news to share with Mom, or Dad runs into the kitchen. Let's just say, let's say Mom’s on the phone and she shushes. You know this.

00:03:39:10 - 00:03:58:03

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Let's say a little boy. Well, this little boy can make that mean I'm not important. And what we feed grows. So now let's say he takes that into his adult life. I'm the important. Well, think about what he would expect in his relationships. So it could be something that we made it mean something, or it could, you know, truly be a betrayal.

00:03:58:03 - 00:04:00:23

Dr. Debbie Silbert

But these things follow us around until we clean them up.

00:04:01:03 - 00:04:10:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So how do they range? Is there kind of different levels of damage done by different types of trauma or betrayal? I guess said really. Speaking of betrayal, which is a trauma.

00:04:10:06 - 00:04:28:16

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. When I was doing my research, I assumed, you know, you're not supposed to assume anything as a researcher. I was new at this, but I assume that the people who were the hardest hit would grow the least because they had the most to overcome. That had nothing to do with it. It was the ones that were willing.

00:04:28:18 - 00:04:47:12

Dr. Debbie Silbert

The willingness had such a bigger impact than time because people always say, how long does it take? Willingness has so much more to do with it. The ones who just put their head down and said, I am not picking it up until I am out the other side blew the doors off of some of the other ones, and actually there were three groups in the study who did not heal.

00:04:47:12 - 00:04:59:06

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And this will be clear if I share the discoveries a little bit later on. But just to give you an idea, the first group, this was the group. They had their story. They were sticking with it. They just refused to let go of that story.

00:04:59:08 - 00:05:00:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Can you give an example?

00:05:00:12 - 00:05:08:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Like they were betrayed and no matter who they met with, who they spoke with, whatever was happening in their lives, that was the story.

00:05:08:05 - 00:05:10:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And so they came to sort of like the centerpiece of their life.

00:05:10:17 - 00:05:28:17

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Absolutely. Okay. Instead of it becoming, let's say, a pivotal chapter of their story, it became the story. The second group, this was the group that was numbing, avoiding, distracting. So maybe they went to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer, anti-anxiety meds. Maybe they were emotionally eating. Maybe they were drinking, numbing in front of the TV.

00:05:28:17 - 00:05:48:10

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Whatever it was, it may have made the day a bit easier to get through. Not without a price they didn't heal. And the third group. This was the group where the betrayer had very little consequence. So whether it was out of financial fear, religious reasons, not wanting to break up the family, whatever it was, they just did, all they could turn the other cheek, look the other way.

00:05:48:10 - 00:05:57:04

Dr. Debbie Silbert

I saw two things with this group. Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship. And two, this group by far was the most physically sick.

00:05:57:07 - 00:06:07:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. And I have a feeling well, I can think of a lot of people pulling in all three camps. But that last camp, that's a big camp because there's a lot of failed acknowledgment of betrayal in our society.

00:06:07:18 - 00:06:27:00

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And it’s a very different thing. It was very different than the ones whose relationship crashed and burned, and they built something entirely new and then got back together. That’s not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the group that just tried to look the other way or act like it didn't happen or whatever.

00:06:27:01 - 00:06:31:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Do you find that the one doing the betraying knows that it's a betrayal?

00:06:31:18 - 00:06:51:15

Dr. Debbie Silbert

You know, I don't know if they've necessarily categorized it, but I have seen there are two types of betrayers. There's the type where this was the absolute biggest shake-up for them, as it was for the betrayed. There's huge potential there. They realize they just broke the heart and trust of the very person who loves and trusts them the most.

00:06:51:17 - 00:07:12:04

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And it can be as profound of a wake-up call as it is for the betrayed. Then there's the group. They're just, you know, on to the next. It's someone else's problem, and they just minimize, negate the whole thing. Don't really feel like dealing with it, you know, for whatever reason. And there are many, not any, who excuse the behavior, but they have all of their reasons.

00:07:12:05 - 00:07:23:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And do you find that betrayers tend to fit into certain categories? Because when I was thinking of the cluster B personality types, that definitely I have a feeling they tend to be frequent betrayers.

00:07:23:20 - 00:07:45:21

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah, there's really very little to work with when that's the experience. And I teach this idea of like, how do you really know if it's even in your best interest to heal and rebuild with someone or to heal and move along? And clearly, if someone isn't even willing to acknowledge what they've done, there's no remorse, there's no empathy, there's no regret, there's no, you know, there's no apology.

00:07:45:21 - 00:08:01:23

Dr. Debbie Silbert

There's no like, what are you working with there? Right? I mean, we're trying to rebuild. Like, that's what you're getting at this point in time. Their current level of consciousness. This is what you're getting. So if you're rebuilding with someone and that's their attitude, what really are you expecting that's going to be any different than what you've had?

00:08:02:02 - 00:08:18:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. As an aside, it reminded me of a story that's like late in that second marriage, it was highly disastrous. I don't know how much you know my story, but I was widowed. And then I got into a second disastrous marriage with probably the worst person I could have picked. Worst of all, the worst in one person, you know.

00:08:18:03 - 00:08:38:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So I found this one person who had all the worst qualities, and he claimed he had a sex addiction these days. Now, you know, I know no, he's probably a psychopath. So anyway, so was it a sex addiction or just entitlement? That's up for debate. But he said to me late in the marriage when I'm really looking for an out, he said, can you just get to accept that I have a sex addiction and what you're going to do about that?

00:08:38:14 - 00:08:44:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You're like, yep, there was like, I am who I am and what I am. And you're right, there is no changing that individual.

00:08:44:21 - 00:09:07:08

Dr. Debbie Silbert

No, no. And what's interesting is I see so many people, the betrayed, making excuses for the betrayer. Well, they have a sex addiction. Oh, they've had a lot of trauma. They've had that. Well, you've had stuff too. Does that give you a free pass? Why is it that you have whatever restraint or integrity not to betray? But here you are making excuses for someone who's absolutely doing this to you?

00:09:07:11 - 00:09:18:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Absolutely. You're right. Absolutely. And I also know that those of us who are in those types of relationships know that if we were to pull anywhere similar to what they've done to us, we probably wouldn't still be breathing.

00:09:18:22 - 00:09:39:14

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Exactly. It's so amazing. And that's something that I often do where I switch it and I say, “Okay, what?” And I'll even ask how much of this, like, let's just take numbers 100%. Best case scenario is that's all you can possibly have here and all you can possibly be working with. What's the percentage of how much you are giving as opposed to, you know, your partner and it's usually like 80/20.

00:09:39:19 - 00:09:48:18

Dr. Debbie Silbert

You know, I yeah. Would you tolerate, would you ever even consider giving 20% if I do a relationship? So it becomes clear when we switch it.

00:09:48:19 - 00:09:56:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Right. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It is a really shocking thing. Have you come across Jennifer Freed's work, Betrayal Blindness?

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:00:18

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah, I use a lot of her research when I was doing my own study.

00:10:00:20 - 00:10:17:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Help us understand better why we don't see the betrayals in the beginning. I found the story in the book particularly fascinating of the woman whose husband, I think it was, her husband, her partner who was picked up for child pornography. And there was literature around the house, and the detective actually showed it to her and said, “What do you think of this?”

00:10:17:17 - 00:10:35:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And she said, “Well, you know, it’s here on the coffee table or whatever.” And it was later she looked back at it and said, “Oh my goodness, it was inflammatory content.” I don't know why I didn't see it, but she literally didn't see it. The detective kind of noted, her eyes glazed over as if she couldn't take in what was happening.

00:10:35:09 - 00:10:51:11

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Well, think about it. If we see something, we have to acknowledge it. If we acknowledge it, we have to do something about it. If we have to do something about it, it's going to create a huge shake-up. So that could be it right there. If we take that first step towards it, it's going to really create a huge bunch of chaos.

00:10:51:11 - 00:11:12:04

Dr. Debbie Silbert

You know, I did two Ted talks, and in the first one, I talk about how sometimes it's like we're holding our finger to keep this pebble in place, because if we let this go, there's going to be an avalanche. Right? And that's really it takes a tremendous amount of energy just to keep things in place. And I think a lot of us do it that way.

00:11:12:06 - 00:11:12:10

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah.

00:11:12:11 - 00:11:16:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But it takes a tremendous amount of energy. It also being a state of denial.

00:11:17:00 - 00:11:34:03

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Oh yeah. You know, I have a saying, and it works. I haven't found a topic it hasn't worked for. I've been using this for 33 years in my business. And it's hard now. Easy later. Easy now, hard later. Take your mind going to be one of those two when it comes to betrayal; there is nothing less than hard now, easy later.

00:11:34:03 - 00:11:57:18

Dr. Debbie Silbert

But here's where people say, “Oh, but I'm so miserable. This isn't, you know. What are you saying? Easy now?” I'm saying easy now because unless you do something radically different, you're going to have the same thing. But that's what people are so afraid of. They will take the familiar known. Really? Just because it's the familiar known, instead of venturing into something that could potentially be so much healthier, so much better.

00:11:57:20 - 00:12:02:20

Dr. Debbie Silbert

I mean, that's the beauty of the discoveries. It shows all of that and I’m happy to share them if you want to hear.

00:12:02:23 - 00:12:20:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. But before you get there, John Gottman looked at the 24 Steps of Betrayal back at the progression. Do you agree that there is a progression that leads up to the massive betrayal? Can you talk about that? Did you see that there's sort of this incremental movement towards a massive betrayal, or do you think betrayal is just beginning to happen?

00:12:20:14 - 00:12:25:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Like suddenly they go from, “Oh, I'm all in and everything's great” to “Oh, and now I cheated.”

00:12:25:13 - 00:12:37:04

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah, I think there are way too many reasons why people betray that. I couldn't say it has to be this sort of growing thing. There are just too many reasons.

00:12:37:04 - 00:12:38:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Like, what are some of them? For example.

00:12:39:01 - 00:12:55:23

Dr. Debbie Silbert

A sense of entitlement, unhealed trauma, a different way to numb where one person uses alcohol, another person chooses a person, right? It's just there are so many things they're unwilling to look at and see. So however they escape themselves, I mean, it's endless.

00:12:56:03 - 00:13:02:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So talk about the stages that happen when you're the one being betrayed. What happens to the survivor?

00:13:02:06 - 00:13:27:09

Dr. Debbie Silbert

So that was actually the third discovery. Okay. What was discovered was that while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal. And by fully heal, I mean symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, which I'm happy to share to this completely rebuilt place where you've rebuilt your life and yourself, you're going to move through five proven, predictable stages.

00:13:27:09 - 00:13:39:10

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And what's even more exciting about that is we now know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at each stage, and we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. Happy to share the stages.

00:13:39:10 - 00:13:41:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, yeah, that's exciting actually.

00:13:41:05 - 00:14:03:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah, that for me this was the most exciting of the three discoveries. And so the first is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me two was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling of being well at the table only has two legs.

00:14:03:02 - 00:14:24:06

Dr. Debbie Silbert

It's easy for that table to topple over. Right? That's a stage two shock trauma, D-Day, Discovery Day. This is by far the scariest of all of the stages. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. So right here you've ignited the stress response. You are now headed for every stress related symptom illness, condition, disease.

00:14:24:10 - 00:14:46:16

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Your mind is in a complete and total state of chaos and overwhelm. None of this makes sense. You can't wrap your mind around what happened and your worldview is shattered, right? Our mental model, the rules that govern us. Trust this person. Go here. These are the rules. And in one series of moments or one moment, everything you've been holding to be real and true has bottomed, at the bottom, has bottomed out, and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet.

00:14:46:18 - 00:15:05:01

Dr. Debbie Silbert

That's why stage two is the most terrifying. But if the bottom were to bottom out, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. I imagine most people you see are in this stage.

00:15:05:02 - 00:15:23:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

If you can help me get out of my way, how do I survive this? Where do I go? Who can I trust? Yeah. Here's the trap, though. This is the stage that most people get stuck in. Here's why. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma you just came from, we think is good, right?

00:15:23:04 - 00:15:39:08

Dr. Debbie Silbert

It feels better than where we came from. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we park here. We're not supposed to. We don't know that. And four things start to happen. The first thing is we start getting all those small self benefits. You know, we get our story. We love our story, right? We get sympathy from everyone.

00:15:39:08 - 00:15:55:14

Dr. Debbie Silbert

We tell our story to the whole victim thing. We get to be right. We get someone to blame. So we plant deeper roots. And because we're here again longer than we should be now the mind's like, you know, maybe you're not that great. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper. Everything that narcissist or whatever was telling us we believe it, right?

00:15:55:19 - 00:16:17:09

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah. Now, because we're here longer than we should be. And these are the thoughts we're thinking. This is the energy we start putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now we start attracting relationships and people and circumstances to confirm this is where we belong here. Right here is where we may be healing, but we will sabotage our healing because we're afraid to outgrow our betrayer.

00:16:17:11 - 00:16:40:07

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Here's where we join that lame support group. And now we will sabotage our healing because we found our people. Here's where we go to a therapist who's, let's say, not very highly skilled in betrayal trauma, and we feel heard, validated and understood. And we were actually gluing ourselves to stage three. Right. It gets worse. But I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad and so hopeless.

00:16:40:07 - 00:16:58:11

Dr. Debbie Silbert

But we don't know if there's anywhere else to go right here. We start numbing, avoiding, distracting, right? Just to get us through our day. So we do it for a day, a week, month, a year, 20 years. I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing right, that drinking. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal?

00:16:58:11 - 00:17:05:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

And they look at me like I have six heads. It had been 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three. Does that make sense?

00:17:05:05 - 00:17:09:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah it does. And all that to me becomes part of the identity. I am a victim. It happened to.

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:23:21

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Me. And the longer they're there, the less able they're willing to even look at the idea that there's a version of them waiting, waiting. Transformation doesn't even happen until stage four. Can I get you out of stage three?

00:17:23:21 - 00:17:25:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So how do you leave stage three?

00:17:25:14 - 00:17:45:19

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah. So? So if you're willing, here's that big word right here. Willing to let go of the story. And let's brought you grief. Mourn the loss. Bunch of things we need to do. We move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where we acknowledge I can't undo any of that that happened, but I control what I do with it.

00:17:46:00 - 00:18:04:12

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Even in that decision, we've just turned the stress response down. We're not healing just yet, but at least we stopped the massive damage we've been accumulating in stages two. In stage three, stage four feels like if you've ever moved very moved to a new house office, whatever. Like it's this sort of hopeful excitement, like, we can do this, we got this right.

00:18:04:12 - 00:18:21:00

Dr. Debbie Silbert

But think about it. If you move, if you were to move, you don't take everything with you. If you don't take the things that don't represent who you're ready to become. And what I found was there's this one spot as people move from stage three to stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, you're done. That lame support group, you're done.

00:18:21:03 - 00:18:41:22

Dr. Debbie Silbert

The betrayer who's not changing, you're done. Right? We see it so often in this intimate cleansing. Yeah, yeah. It's it. Transformation is beginning now. Anyway, when we've settled into this new space, we've made it kind of mentally our new home. We move into the fifth most beautiful stage. And this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal.

00:18:41:22 - 00:18:58:04

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise, all that stuff. Week. We don't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now we do. The mind is healing, making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries. We have a new worldview based on everything we're seeing so clearly in the four legs of that table. In the beginning, it was all about physical and mental.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:04:01

Dr. Debbie Silbert

By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual, too. Those are the five stages.

00:19:04:01 - 00:19:10:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I want to go back to the first stage where we're just leaning into the first two legs, not all four legs. Why do you think that's happening?

00:19:10:03 - 00:19:31:18

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Autopilot. We have so much to do. We're just so busy. We're following and abiding by the rules of that relationship, and we're just going about our business, living our lives, not questioning or not even thinking. We have to write. So that's why it's such a shock to the body, to the mind, to the heart, because it's without our awareness or consent.

00:19:31:18 - 00:19:39:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Someone chose to break those spoken or unspoken rules, so it completely just demolishes us.

00:19:39:02 - 00:19:49:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I can already hear the questions that some may want to ask, which is can you spot a betrayal coming before it happens? Maybe this is like an impossible question, but still.

00:19:49:07 - 00:20:10:12

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah, there are so many reasons why you know why they could happen. And here's the I don't know, you know, from a spiritual perspective, I don't know who your audience is, but, you know, on some level, like I was told, this was a soul contract, you know, where he needed something so devastating to crash and burn and wake up and become the husband father friend he's supposed to be.

00:20:10:12 - 00:20:25:21

Dr. Debbie Silbert

I needed to crash a bird so I can come from this deep place of knowing. I remember seeing so much. Oh my gosh, how you're going to have an institute. You're going to have all these books on betrayal and this big following around betrayal. And I thought she was crazy, but. Right. So it's like you truly. How do you know?

00:20:25:23 - 00:20:42:02

Dr. Debbie Silbert

What I can tell you, though, is how many people say, you know, I kind of sensed something wasn't right. But we turn our intuition down, because if we turn that intuition up, we have to confront something that we may not be ready or willing to see.

00:20:42:06 - 00:20:56:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, that certainly was the case in my situation here. I thought I saw myself madly in love, and yet I'm hiring a private investigator to do a background check. Like, do you think that's a problem yet? Maybe. Maybe that's telling me something. Have you ever seen a betrayal destroy somebody?

00:20:57:00 - 00:21:17:17

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Yeah, that's what stage two is. Is and especially, you know, like, I personally am a highly sensitive empath, you know, with integrity is my highest value. Yeah. Right. So it almost doesn't get worse. The only thing that I imagine worse than betrayal is losing a child. Thankfully, I have no experience in that. So. Yeah, I mean, this is because think about it.

00:21:17:17 - 00:21:44:17

Dr. Debbie Silbert

This was the person who gave you that sense of safety and security, right? So when this is the person who takes that very sense of safety and security away, it's traumatizing. And that's exactly why the first discovery was that betrayal is a different type of trauma. And it needs to be handled a different type of way. Because what many people do is they treat betrayal as a, not as just a regular type of trauma.

00:21:44:17 - 00:22:10:09

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Listen, there's no better or worse. They all stink. And the reason why this first discovery came came about was because originally I was saying betrayal and post-traumatic growth. I'm all about the what can we do about it thing, you know, the upside of it. But I realized post-traumatic growth is, you know, I don't know, I kind of look at it as the upside of whatever that trauma is, how that trauma, death of a loved one, disease, natural disaster, whatever it is, leaves you with a new awareness, perspective, insight.

00:22:10:09 - 00:22:26:01

Dr. Debbie Silbert

You didn't have. But I had been through death of a loved one. I'd been through disease and I was like, this feels different. I didn't want to assume all my study participants felt the same way. So I asked him, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, does it feel different for you? Unanimously, it was different. Here's why.

00:22:26:03 - 00:22:48:12

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the entire self gets demolished. Rejection. Abandonment. Belonging. Confidence. Worthiness. Trust. Right? Like when you lose someone you love, you grieve. You're sad. You mourn the loss. You don't question the relationship, right? Yeah. Great question. Your ability to trust your question, your sanity. You know, with betrayal you do.

00:22:48:15 - 00:23:13:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Right? Right. In fact, when it happened to me, the moment I found out I actually lost time, I disappeared. I can feel myself go offline. Like just it was felt like for me that my reality crashed like there was two worlds, what I thought and now what was true. And I felt them crash. And that for a moment there for a while, I didn't exist in the crashing until I came to, but it was utterly destructive.

00:23:13:14 - 00:23:18:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I would say that the me there died that day, and who I am today is somebody new.

00:23:18:13 - 00:23:38:09

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Absolutely. And that version of you did that, that's the thing. And this is why people say all the time, I just want to get back to who I was. Who you were doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. Now you get to. And this is what stages four and five were all about. You get to take all the parts you love and you leave behind everything that doesn't serve.

00:23:38:09 - 00:23:57:14

Dr. Debbie Silbert

So when I say hard now, easy later, I mean, a thought comes in your head. And here's the opportunity where you say, did the only do that? Did it serve? No. Then it's not coming with me. And you take and create this version of you that never would have had the opportunity to be created, had that not happened.

00:23:57:15 - 00:23:58:19

Dr. Debbie Silbert

That's trauma. Well served.

00:23:59:01 - 00:24:17:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. It is. And it's a hard thing because that's a bitter pill in a way for me to swallow that who I am today. I'm extremely grateful for that transformation. I just wish it didn't have to happen that way. That's the part that I find really hard. But yeah, it definitely is reshaped and I watch it reshape other people.

00:24:17:01 - 00:24:32:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But here's the thing. So on the podcast extra, I want to pursue more with the stage three that we tend to park and build a house in and maybe build our identity in. Let's talk about how to know if you've done that and what to do to start to break out of it so that you get rid of the victim mentality.

00:24:32:18 - 00:24:38:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But thank you so much for joining me tonight, Dr. Debbie, how can people find you if they want to learn more about you and what you're up to?

00:24:38:19 - 00:24:45:06

Dr. Debbie Silbert

Thank you. Everything is at the PBT is in post betrayal transformation. www.thePBTinstitute.com.

00:24:45:10 - 00:25:07:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Okay, great. Then are you on social media as well or not? Yes. Debbie Sliber okay, great. Thank you so much, Dr. Debbie, this was a fabulous discussion that I know could go on for forever. I really appreciate it. Today. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD.

00:25:07:19 - 00:25:22:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at Kerry McAvoyPhD.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.