The Shocking Psychological Cost of Living with a Narcissist: Interview with Lynn Strathdee

Living with a narcissistic or emotionally toxic person will wreak havoc on your personality or sense of self.  

This week, Lynn Strathdee, mental health therapist and expert, joins us today to discuss the effects of chronic exposure to narcissistic abuse. Learn how dysfunctional relationship shapes your personality, giving “echoistic” tendencies.  

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

00:00:04:11 - 00:00:24:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Some of us get into toxic relationships because of our personality traits. No, we're not codependent. We may be echoIstic Today, Lynne Strathdee joins me to talk about how these personality characteristics can negatively affect relationships and maybe even attract narcissists.

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:49:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, Lynn Strathdee and so excited to have you back on Breaking Free from narcissistic abuse, because we had a fascinating conversation last time about echoism And I know that's something that most people have never heard of. I mean, absolutely never heard of it, but I think it's a bigger problem than most of us realize. And so today, I'd like to get into not only just a reintroduction of what it is, but how maybe you think it develops, because I think that's important because there's I think a couple different pathways.

00:00:49:20 - 00:01:00:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But also what is its implication in relationships, what happens to us when we get in a toxic relationship if we have any of these characteristics? So thank you so much for being back today.

00:01:00:10 - 00:01:03:15

Lynn Strathdee

Hi, Kerry, it’s really lovely to be back. Lovely to see you again.

00:01:03:17 - 00:01:14:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So tell me from the get go, because I know some of us have never heard of the word echoism what is it in a nutshell? And what does that look like in a relationship?

00:01:14:02 - 00:01:38:09

Lynn Strathdee

So I think it's ironic that we don't talk about echoism because it's as ubiquitous as narcissism. It's just that the term itself is unfamiliar. It's not that echoism per se is either uncommon or not as frequently seen as narcissism. In fact, you can think about every single element of narcissism. You can apply that to echo ism.

00:01:38:11 - 00:02:01:21

Lynn Strathdee

Echoism is essentially if we have narcissism as a personality type that is essentially self focused and constantly self orienting and having itself as the kind of center of gravity. If you like the kind of the focal point the echoist is the opposite of, that is literally kind of other centered. So it's almost like the person's priorities and center of gravity.

00:02:01:21 - 00:02:29:00

Lynn Strathdee

That kind of driving force is externally driven as opposed to internally driven. And just like narcissism, you could have that. You know, everyone if they're healthy, is going to be at some points in their life, self-focused and self-serving in the true sense of the word, you know, looking after oneself in, you know, caring for oneself. And at times, of course, we have to be appropriately looking after and caring for other people and prioritizing their needs.

00:02:29:05 - 00:02:50:16

Lynn Strathdee

But as you know, in more extreme cases, you can have people that are so self oriented and so self-focused that it's really, really damaging for other people. And of course, the same is true of echoism. The reason that I think it's it's got lost really, is that we've been using for years now in mental health, and I've been in recovery for most of my adult life.

00:02:50:16 - 00:03:12:22

Lynn Strathdee

So one way or another, even though my therapy practices is very new, I've been in this sphere, if you like, for decades, but we have so many different terms for what I think the concept of echoism captures so brilliantly, and which narcissism also captures brilliantly in a single term. We have codependent, we have empath, we have highly sensitive person.

00:03:12:22 - 00:03:31:16

Lynn Strathdee

Some people will sort of think about echoism in that respect. We also have, people pleaser thing. Yeah. Thank you people pleaser. And I think that that's it's not that we haven't been talking about echoism this whole time. We have every time somebody is talking about one of those terms plus the narcissist, which they usually are aren't they?

00:03:31:19 - 00:03:58:12

Lynn Strathdee

I think what they're doing essentially is picking one element of echoism and calling that the thing. So they'll say, oh, it's the codependent and the narcissist and the codependent, or it's the narcissist and the people pleaser, but actually people pleasing, codependency, being highly sensitive, being highly empathic. They're all elements of echoism and fall under that umbrella. And I think it's much more helpful to think of narcissism and echoism rather than narcissism.

00:03:58:12 - 00:04:03:04

Lynn Strathdee

Then all these different kind of elements, behaviors, traits and so on, right? You know,

00:04:03:06 - 00:04:09:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

we almost have fragmented trying to capture we have something and we have all these labels that we have. Yeah.

00:04:09:06 - 00:04:32:12

Lynn Strathdee

And people get confused then hold on. Does that mean it's a pathology. If we've got pathological narcissism, does that mean echoisms of pathology? I would argue you can be so damagingly other focused that it's pathological to yourself. Yeah. You know, just not to other people. Which is why it doesn't necessarily require any kind of DSM label necessarily. but it's extremely damaging,

00:04:32:15 - 00:04:49:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I think of the story of Narcissus and Echo. I mean, I think that's a really great example. That's where it comes from. Yeah. It's comes from the Greek tragedy, which Echo becomes, I mean, she's a nymph. She falls in love and she becomes fixated. Now, granted, she's curse, but she's fixated to a spot where she gets rooted into that spot.

00:04:49:10 - 00:04:54:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

is that true or mind mixing that up with Narcissus? He gets, he becomes a flower. He gets fixated, he

00:04:54:04 - 00:05:21:08

Lynn Strathdee

becomes a flower. She's fixated with him. Absolutely. But she's originally cursed because she's talking a lot. She's chattering, chattering, chattering. And she's curse for distracting Juno. Who was, Zeus's wife. He was away, playing away from home with other women. And she distracted his wife from noticing what he was up to. So Juno cursed Echo for the fact that she distracted her. And as a result, she missed what her husband was up to,

00:05:21:08 - 00:05:42:16

Lynn Strathdee

his kind of, playing away from home. And as a result, she said, right, well, that's it, you're not going to speak. If you do speak, you'll only ever be able to repeat what someone else says. And of course, Narcissus extremely beautiful young man who a lot of people were enamored by. But he was the person that she then saw, fell in love with and was completely obsessed with.

00:05:42:16 - 00:06:04:21

Lynn Strathdee

And I think this idea of an ideal love, because Narcissus was as obsessed with a kind of ideal love with himself, but she was totally fixated on this idea of an ideal love with him, but could only ever express herself through what he was saying. And he was the only person that she was paying any attention to. So his were the words that she was always repeating, right?

00:06:04:21 - 00:06:16:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So she would became other, focused to the point that she a reflection of his last few words, and he would start to think about the fact that she becomes a container for his speech, even literally.

00:06:16:04 - 00:07:03:18

Lynn Strathdee

So it's not that the feelings weren't there. It's not that she didn't have any identity, it's that she couldn't express it. So it's not an absence of of desire or an absence of imagination or any of those things. It's just that she physically didn't have the capacity to articulate her own thoughts and feelings and I think that's a very important aspect of echoism, echoistic people. and I don't want to make it sound like I'm, describing, like I said a minute ago, this new entity of people, I'm not I'm just describing people that there have always been. Yes, who are full of their own feelings and thoughts, but are very frightened of articulate to them, particularly when there's someone who is a more dominant, more self-confident, more, pushy, more out there character.

00:06:38:23 - 00:07:03:18

Lynn Strathdee

00:07:03:18 - 00:07:15:16

Lynn Strathdee

A lot of people find the idea of, pushing back or saying something different goes right out the window the minute that they're standing in front of somebody who needs them to just, hum the tune. Right, right, right. Perfecto. The party line.

00:07:15:19 - 00:07:32:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I was going to ask you for a practical example, because I think that will even help make this clearer for people. To let's say that we have somebody, a strong woman who's running, or maybe not even she doesn't appear strong, but she's using her femininity in a strong way, and he feels like he's being targeted by her, that he can't do anything right.

00:07:32:08 - 00:07:53:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

He gets emasculated for any efforts that he tries. Everything he does, she kind of corrupts and attacks. She plays the guilt game really makes it very passive aggressive. And he feels like he's powerless. He's sort of stuck at home. So what might be a scenario which the narcissistic wife then centers herself and that the echoistic husband is then left to respond. And

00:07:53:10 - 00:07:56:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

can you kind of like, can he jump in there and help play out a scenario like that?

00:07:56:13 - 00:08:20:02

Lynn Strathdee

So yeah, I think her scenario or any kind of domestic scenario, particularly what you've just said, where someone's had a long period of that, where the relationship has sort of been built on a bedrock of or a foundation of one person diminishing and demeaning somebody else's experience to the point when they do say something, it's not taken seriously, it's not respected, and nothing happens.

00:08:20:02 - 00:08:46:16

Lynn Strathdee

So in that kind of context, say, for example, they're out as a couple, they're going out for dinner somewhere, and the husband notices that she is behaving quite flirtatiously or she is doing something that makes him feel less than or disrespected, maybe. And to say something about that, to challenge it, it's very, very easy for that dominant woman to turn around and make him feel like he's the one that's making it up, that he's exaggerating, that he's insecure.

00:08:46:21 - 00:09:14:12

Lynn Strathdee

it's exactly what we see in all the narcissistic abuse stuff that, you talk about on your channel where somebody brings their feelings and when they're diminished or rejected by a dominant person, an echoistic person, rather than pushing back, will have a tendency to immediately just to kind of think, okay, well, I probably have got this wrong. because I think anyone in a relationship with an abusive or dominant person will wind up in an echoistic position even if they didn't start out in one.

00:09:14:17 - 00:09:45:20

Lynn Strathdee

Does that make sense? even a strong and healthy person. If that happens to them for too long, then of course that's going to be the position that they take. But I guess what I think you're sort of alluding to there is where somebody isn't naturally inclined to self doubt. The chances are that they'll, just go along with and start to assume that it is them that's got the wrong end of the stick and then start to really question their own interpretation rather than trusting what they're feeling and actually pushing back so that there are either consequences or that things change, you know?

00:09:46:02 - 00:10:05:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Right. Because what I've noticed in these relationships is there's this fine edge that we walk between connection and abandonment. We want to stay connected, but we need to also at the same time, protect the autonomy and the individuality of the individual. What happens with the narcissist is they will protect their individuality to the extent of betraying the relationship.

00:10:05:15 - 00:10:24:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

They're not invested in maintaining the relationship. Where to me, the echoistic person is so invested in preserving the connection because that's how they I almost feel like it's how they preserve themselves. They preserve the relationship to preserve themselves. I mean, you think back to the story of Echo She has no voice or only voices to repeat another voice at somebody else.

00:10:24:11 - 00:10:42:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So in that moment, if there's no voice to repeat that she have a voice. I mean, yes, internally, but she doesn't really feel like she does. So that often, a lot of us get in these relationships and feel like, well, if I don't make the effort, then we won't be together. I mean, it's always being threatened. And so this is a way that I preserve the connection is by, living through the other person.

00:10:42:20 - 00:10:48:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Not even that I'm getting in. It's more than that, more than just getting in. It's like living through the other person.

00:10:48:05 - 00:11:05:10

Lynn Strathdee

Definitely. I think there's a kind of there's a bit that we don't talk about with codependency, empath, and people pleaser that we don't talk about that you've just touched on, which is really important. And if we can just leave aside for a minute that everything I'm saying about being with a dominant person or an abusive person, that is that's what happens to everybody.

00:11:05:10 - 00:11:28:04

Lynn Strathdee

That's not just to echoIstic people, but if we can just assume for a second that an echoistic person is going into it, as you rightly say, with a deficit in their sense of self and the sense of needing someone else to give them direction, give them a role, give them an identity, but also give them the security of someone else's opinions and position.

00:11:28:06 - 00:12:08:17

Lynn Strathdee

There is a kind of existential element in echoism, like there is in psychology, for all people. We're constantly having to decide, don't we? Throughout our lives, who are we? what are we? what's the right way to be in the world? And I think due to a lack of confidence, due to a lack of self belief an a real fear of attack, of getting things wrong, an echoistic person would rather, as you say, stick with this dominant other person. Because then my role is defined, my role is delineated, and if it's wrong, I'm not in the firing line for attack from the outside because someone else is going to help to protect me

00:12:08:20 - 00:12:31:23

Lynn Strathdee

if I get this wrong because I think fear of attack, psychological attack, emotional attack, I think that's a really important aspect of echoism. It's almost like an echoist will of certainly the clients that I work with. And I know that I've felt this for many, many years because I can talk, as you know, and I'm a naturally very extrovert person, but a real fear of not being able to withstand external attack.

00:12:32:04 - 00:12:35:10

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah, you know, and having to justify the decisions and so on.

00:12:35:15 - 00:12:51:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I have a lot of echoistic tendencies that I know that I do. And and I definitely came from us a home life that perpetuated that. And I would even love to get into that with you about that. Like, how does this evolve? Because a lot of us like, is it from our family of origin? Is it something that happens in a long term relationship?

00:12:51:22 - 00:13:16:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Can it happen in a short term relationship? But I know for me that I grew up in a quite a hierarchical family with a lot of strong, kind of overbearing Christian morals that were quite scary, you know, very, you know, threat of hell kind of thing. So you need to be like, oh, the line like the saying in my family was, when we say to jump, What you're to do is not to just, ask why is to figure out how high and how long you have to maintain it.

00:13:16:11 - 00:13:33:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And so very compliant. We were trained to be extremely compliant. But for me, it's when you talked about being attacked, I think the fear is, is that I will be annihilated. If there is that, I'm not for sure I can withstand that attack from another person. But when I look at other people and say, why are they able to?

00:13:33:20 - 00:13:38:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I'm not quite sure why they seem to with whether this fellow that I can.

00:13:38:06 - 00:14:06:22

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah. And I think this is where Doctor Peter Salerno stuff has been so helpful, because what if we come away from anyone who's not been trained in kind of object relations and things? We can think very simply about traits. If some or neurodivergent, if you have a chaotic or difficult or very dominant environment. And as you know, I, I wasn't raised by abusive people, but there were elements in my childhood that felt like I needed to really adapt myself to my environment.

00:14:06:22 - 00:14:31:19

Lynn Strathdee

And I had a specific set of traits and I if you're very, very sensitive, and you're extremely aware and you're very empathic and very neurotic, and I know you've spoken at different times about, you know, changes in neuroticism over the course of a lifetime. But, if you're a very neurotic person, you're very agreeable. If you're very sensitive and then you experience, relational trauma.

00:14:31:19 - 00:14:56:00

Lynn Strathdee

In my case, as I said, not narcissistic abuse, but I think a position that your personality inclines you to take, which is that my best way of dealing with this is to go along with stuff. Because my neuroticism and my sensitivity mean that the idea of pushing back feels absolutely no way you know, because there just isn't the structure for me to cope with that afterwards.

00:14:56:03 - 00:15:01:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Exactly. Because neuroticism, for those who don't know what that means, it really means insecurity when you think, isn't that kind of a

00:15:01:19 - 00:15:07:10

Lynn Strathdee

yeah, and a tendency to depression, a tendency to worry anxiety. Yeah, definitely.

00:15:07:10 - 00:15:28:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So if you're insecure about yourself, you're accomplishments, your your strengths and somebody else stronger comes along and says, no, no, you've got that wrong and you're highly empathic and you're very self-reflective. You're like, well, maybe I did get it wrong and I don't want to upset. Then you can see how then you kind of place yourself. Yeah, more submerged below our position and the other individual.

00:15:28:05 - 00:15:54:12

Lynn Strathdee

Absolutely right. And I think that's why Doctor Serrano's book was so brilliant for me in helping me to really kind of place, echoism in a more up to date framework, which is if you have someone with the opposite traits low in agreeableness, low in neuroticism, low in conscientiousness, in the face of certain environments, they're going to push back very differently than somebody who has, high agreeableness, high neuroticism high conscientiousness,

00:15:54:12 - 00:16:16:00

Lynn Strathdee

And he doesn't talk about sensitivity, but I think sensitivity, I would argue that probably every echoistic person is you know, what, Elaine Aron would define us as an HSP is a highly sensitive person, I think. having high trait sensitivity is a big deal for children when they're not sure how to manage their emotions, and maybe they don't have the support to manage their emotions.

00:16:16:00 - 00:16:33:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So that leads people with this tendency, this echoistic tendency to make wrong conclusions about interpersonal relationships. That's what I see over and over and over again. I know that I do it with myself is that I assume other people are as sensitive as I am. they're invested as much as I am in the best interests of the relationship,

00:16:33:10 - 00:16:51:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I'm not even for sure I'm all that concerned about the best interests of me. Which is another sign of the echoism, is that I'm also not concerned with me either. But we make some wrong assumptions in relationships that tend to keep us trapped in these toxic relationships. Let's talk a little bit more about that. What have you seen in regards to this?

00:16:51:13 - 00:17:12:07

Lynn Strathdee

think, as you rightly say, Kerry, I think there's this presumption that other people have the same way of thinking as you. the presumption that people make, I think probably we all do this is to assume that, I think this way. So I'm hoping that you think this way. I've noticed that there's very often a naivete and a suggestibility.

00:17:12:07 - 00:17:40:08

Lynn Strathdee

In echoistic people a sense of, a kind of innocence sometimes. But I think that makes it sound like it's all kind of hearts and flowers. I think in a way, that naivete, I think sometimes is a way of avoiding, again, having to necessarily take responsibility and be, more critical, possibly more grown up. You know, there's something up, quite grown up about standing back and reviewing somebody's behavior before you jump all in.

00:17:40:11 - 00:18:08:07

Lynn Strathdee

I think that urge for an ideal love, even in friendships, that urge to have this kind of honeymoon ideal situation isn't just in romantic relationships. And I think that inclines egoistic people to see those idealized traits in any other person without actually standing back maturely and saying, well, I'm going to wait and see what this person shows me before I just completely go all in and think that this is the person that you know, I have in my head that they are, you know.

00:18:08:09 - 00:18:11:12

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah. So just more scrutiny, more objectivity.

00:18:11:19 - 00:18:32:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

almost feel like for me in that moment, I'm so invested in the relationship that I'm willing to forgo a lot and forego a lot of my own safety, assuming the other person is built foregoing the same level of safety. When I don't realize is that the other person is. If I pick up less, kind, compassionate individual, more selfish individual, that they're always in it for the benefit of themselves.

00:18:32:17 - 00:18:40:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. And I don't assume that I assume that they're in for the, the benefit of the relationship and that somehow we're going to be okay. But it doesn't work that way.

00:18:40:12 - 00:19:02:08

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah. See, I don't know that I think of it when I just thinking about this as you're speaking, I'm not sure that I necessarily when it's a new person any way think, oh, I'm so invested in the relationship. But as I understand it and as I experience it, it's more like, well, if someone else thinks that what they're doing is okay, then it must be because they think it is.

00:19:02:10 - 00:19:19:18

Lynn Strathdee

Regardless of the fact that actually I. This doesn't sit right with me. Just not even bothering to check in with whether it sits right with me. as they're saying that this is okay. and I think there's a lack of, checking in with yourself, as you rightly say, like, is this okay? Is this am I sure? Have I even really thought about it?

00:19:19:18 - 00:19:38:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. No, I don't have that same kind of confusion. Mind more. I'm I'm willing to, like, betray that peace in order to preserve the relationship. I mean, I'm aware of it in the moment that that's probably. I'm not really okay with that, but I'm willing to not make a big deal of it. I'm thinking of a for instance, I saw early on my ex chew out an airline, attendant.

00:19:38:12 - 00:19:54:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It was somebody behind the counter, and he got quite loud with them. And then he came over and apologized to me. I know that was unsightly. Maybe a little inappropriate, but they needed to give us better care. And I'm thinking not not okay with it, but if I make a fuss here, it's going to have consequences to the relationship.

00:19:54:12 - 00:20:12:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I may cause a severance or like a breach in the relationship that I don't want to introduce, because I'm not for sure how repairable it is. So I'm willing to sacrifice my integrity around this order to preserve our connection. And that's what bothers me, is that why don't I just sort of like, no, I'm not okay with that and then see what comes?

00:20:13:00 - 00:20:22:20

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah, yeah. So what do you think. Well, I don't you say well no I'm not okay with that because that what that would, that would end it, that would end the relationship. Would it be sort of punishment or.

00:20:22:22 - 00:20:41:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, yeah. Because I think with certain types of people and we know them, I think echoists are really good. And this is what I think maybe I'm wrong. This is just me speculating. I think it was a really good at picking out people who are brittle. That's how I put it. Like like, dangerously. end things easily, rapidly don't need other people and that our need to have them see us.

00:20:41:02 - 00:20:59:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

this is okay. Now I'm getting really like into myself. The need to have this person choose me somehow elevates me. Like, let's go back to the story of Echo Why choose Narcissus words? Okay, she loved him, but he was also one of the most beautiful men in the world. It wasn't just that she loved him. She could have picked a nerd and loved a nerd, but she picks him.

00:20:59:00 - 00:21:19:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And there's a part of the being seen by Somehow this idealized object makes you feel more in in that experience with my ex having his approval and love and acceptance made me feel more that I didn't find it enough in myself for me to say, I don't need that. That's a it, you know? That's crappy. I'm not okay with that.

00:21:19:08 - 00:21:40:11

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah, I think that's a brilliant point. And you've touched on something that I don't think we speak enough about when it comes to echoism, and that is that it's not just, oh, echoistic people, people, places, codependence and that's that. It's that actually one of the most important things about echoism and why it's so useful is the echoist is nearly always winds up in relationships with highly narcissistic people.

00:21:40:15 - 00:22:19:12

Lynn Strathdee

And as you've just rightly said, these are people who can be idealized, albeit only initially, when you know it's the personality and the charisma, or maybe there's some aspect of that person that's being projected as ideal, which of course, we are inclined to say, wow, that, you know, whatever it may be, that's being projected as ideal. And I think you're absolutely right that there is a kind of repressed grandiosity and inverted grandiosity, which is that I'm not comfortable feeling my own ideal ness except through the eyes of this narcissistic other set. That's very alluring.

00:22:19:12 - 00:22:32:12

Lynn Strathdee

It's very addictive because you feel like, well, I'm only really allowed to feel special, and I'll let myself enjoy feeling special when it's through the eyes of this type of a person.

00:22:32:12 - 00:22:49:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yes, yes. And I'm feeling shame now because this is how bad it that it was. He he is a very handsome man. It's maybe not if I put every woman up in the world and say, rate him on a scale of ten, okay? Not everybody is going to give him a ten. But I'm going to tell you he's definitely above a six. Yes. You know, definitely.

00:22:49:22 - 00:23:08:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And we would all collectively agree this is a good looking man. Yet his beauty was such. And people think it was a sexuality. No, it wasn't a sexuality. It was his beauty. His beauty was such that sometimes I would ache in pain looking at him. That's how beautiful he was to me. And to have him see me somehow made me more.

00:23:09:02 - 00:23:23:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And how sad is that? Because I really need to echo repeating the words of Narcissus I needed to find my own beauty and reside and that not live in his beauty. Yeah, but I felt more beautiful because he chose me and I didn't want to lose it.

00:23:23:11 - 00:23:50:00

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I think that's a very important difference in when we talk about narcissistic abuse and relationships more generally. And this particular phenomenon, because this is a particular and quite specific phenomenon around a repressed sense of your own idealization, a real discomfort fit, allowing yourself to feel any of your own. Specialness. And that's where I do agree with Craig Malkin.

00:23:50:04 - 00:24:11:19

Lynn Strathdee

But allowing yourself comfortably to experience it because someone else is, giving that to you. But of course, when that person goes, they also take with them that sense of you being incredible. And we've all been in a relationship with someone who made you feel like you were just the most incredible thing. But it's a strange, unconscious pattern and it's talked about all over the place.

00:24:11:19 - 00:24:19:23

Lynn Strathdee

It's just that it's not necessarily using this language. Right. You know, a lot of people will say, yeah, I've had one narcissistic relationship after another for friendship.

00:24:20:04 - 00:24:26:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And then they'll say, I'm codependent. Like, no, I, I'm really I have a strong version of that work. I really don't like it.

00:24:26:07 - 00:24:57:15

Lynn Strathdee

But you, you touched on something a second ago as well about when you were growing up and the need to be seen or the desire to be seen. And I've been really enjoying, Jessica Benjamin's work on into subjectivity. And she explores dominance and submission and fact that using object relations, if we think about the child individuating, a little girl and a little boy trying to develop their own sense of who they are, the little girl is modeled after and sees herself as, you know, similar to the mother.

00:24:57:18 - 00:25:23:22

Lynn Strathdee

And whereas there's the Oedipal phase, the little boy and the father, she talks about little girls having if the penis envy is to be thought of in any meaningful way. It's more around the dis identification with mother. Yes, because father represents freedom and the outside world. But in some individuals, We need to know that we're real. We need to be recognized for our ability to assert ourselves.

00:25:23:22 - 00:25:51:16

Lynn Strathdee

Some people will excessively assert themselves because they're not able to really be intersubjective. They're not really able to recognize the other, but they'll find someone who's going to recognize them. And I think echoists, exactly that. They perform the role of I tell you what I'll do, I'll just recognize you. I'll just be here recognizing you, asserting yourself. And the narcissist will say, well, I'm just going to keep asserting myself. And you're just going to have to keep recognizing me.

00:25:51:20 - 00:26:04:07

Lynn Strathdee

But of course, in order for that recognition to be meaningful, the person has to be a person. You have to have some value, right? If you diminish somebody so much that they have no value, then their recognition of you is meaningless.

00:26:04:07 - 00:26:21:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yes, I have a perfect example of it and it was near the back end of our relationship. So he was in the devaluing phase, so there wasn't anything that I could do to redeem myself. That's the other unique thing about narcissists is that they move from idealized to suddenly or devalued. And there's no going back. You're go from all good to now, you're all bad.

00:26:21:12 - 00:26:37:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So I was in the all bad phase and We met somebody and we were chatting with them, another couple on vacation, and I was just looking at my ex admiring him, respecting what he was having to say. Appreciate the you, you know, it was smart, savvy and just thought he was doing a good job. And I was admiring all of that.

00:26:37:03 - 00:27:00:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And that person stopped the man. Stop and said, “Oh, to have somebody look at me the way that she looks at you, .” so here's this person on from the outside was able to admire the admiration and the the love and the respect and wish to be under that kind of light with somebody. And yet my ex could not see it, nor enjoy it or experience it, because in his mind it no longer mattered.

00:27:00:12 - 00:27:02:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I because I no longer mattered.

00:27:02:05 - 00:27:26:19

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah, because you've lost your value. Yeah. And I think one of the things she talks about brilliantly is the fact that, the dominant needs, needs the submissive person. there's an interesting parallel around this idea of the dominant person does need something from you. Yeah. Which is your recognition. Yeah. And if you don't recognize then you're not doing your job. But also if they need you then that's a problem, you know.

00:27:26:19 - 00:27:30:07

Lynn Strathdee

So they have to diminish you. But just not too much. Not too much.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:59:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. But they also resist their own dependency to the fact that they need you. They despise that as well. So then they hate you for that as well. So yeah, it's just, you know, it's a very big loss situation. So yeah, to wrap this up, because I know you and I could just go for hours on this topic 100%. Is let's jump over to the Podcast Extra and talk about if you're recognizing that you are living through the other person, that you're really struggling to have much of a self maybe even scared to take a stand because you know you're going to lose that connection.

00:27:59:20 - 00:28:06:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Let's talk about how to begin to practically do that. But how can people find you when where are you? Where can they.

00:28:06:02 - 00:28:25:02

Lynn Strathdee

Yeah, sure. I my, TikTok, name is The Echo Chamber, and I'm on Instagram @TheEchoChamber2024. I have a website called EchoismRecovery.com and there's contact page on there. Anyone can send me an email or or on social media. So but most of my work is with clients, you know.

00:28:25:06 - 00:28:29:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, that's what I will say. You do a lot of one on ones. It's a, an work with consultations and.

00:28:30:00 - 00:28:34:03

Lynn Strathdee

Absolutely. Absolutely. Anyone can reach out. Of course they can. Yeah, sure.

00:28:34:08 - 00:28:37:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

All right. Thank you so much for being on today. Thank discussion.

00:28:37:23 - 00:28:40:18

Lynn Strathdee

Thank you, Kerry.

00:28:40:20 - 00:28:58:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy Ph.D. Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com. If you found this

00:28:58:09 - 00:28:59:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

episode helpful, please

00:28:59:19 - 00:29:04:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.