When Your Best Friend is a Narcissist: Cost of Toxic Female Relationships

Are female friendships just as damaging as pathological love relationships?

This week, Sabrina Kirberg, author of We Used to be Best Friends, joins us to discuss the harmful consequences of toxic women friendships. Learn why we often miss spotting toxic female relationships and their common harmful dynamics.

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

00:00:04:14 - 00:00:24:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We talk a lot about narcissists, particularly narcissistic romantic relationships and narcissistic men. But what about women? today, to address that, Sabrina Kirberg joins me to talk about toxic narcissistic friendships.

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:43:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, I'm really excited today to have Sabrina Kirberg I found her on TikTok talking about toxic relationships. And I think ghosting a best friend, especially toxic female relationships. And then one of the things Sabrina, we don't really talk a whole lot about is female narcissists. Women, narcissists. You know, we mentioned them when they become moms, but we really don't.

00:00:43:04 - 00:00:58:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I mean, they exist before moms. They're also girlfriends. They're sisters. They're they're friends. So I was fascinated by your subject because it's just not much that said about it. So tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got interested in female narcissists,

00:00:58:02 - 00:01:22:07

Sabrina Kirberg

I didn't really get interested in feel worse and since I was experienced and exposed to one. But I started TikTok maybe two years ago as sort of like a healing platform for me just to share my story. I honestly thought that I was going to be the only one that experienced this. So I started sharing videos, not thinking anyone was going to look at it, and then suddenly it just started blowing up.

00:01:22:07 - 00:01:45:08

Sabrina Kirberg

And a lot of other females out there experienced the same type of story, and it felt like they all have this playbook that they play by. And it it was just very nice and reassuring to see. That's so like not nice in a way, but it was validating to see that so many people also went through what I went through, and I wasn't alone in the experience.

00:01:45:08 - 00:01:51:01

Sabrina Kirberg

But at the same time, it is scary that there's so many narcissists out there, so many female narcissists out there.

00:01:51:03 - 00:02:14:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. In fact, first one I was looking at, I thought roughly that it was like 2 to 1 men to women. But then when you really look at the government statistics, it's nearly even. They’re nearly 50, 50 women are really creeping up on men. So it's interesting that we ignore that population. I have some my theories because think of it more not just women's friendships, but also from the standpoint of why are the men miss it too?

00:02:14:20 - 00:02:29:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

and I know there are some out there who like to think that all women are reacting to patriarchy. I actually don't believe that I think that there's women who are just have deficits in their personality, are not really well defined egos. What's your theory on why we're not seeing it.

00:02:29:12 - 00:02:56:00

Sabrina Kirberg

Because it's not talked about. Well, we don't talk about narcissism in females specifically. And then we also don't talk about narcissistic females in friendships. Like I've said before, if they're your mom, before that, there's somebody's wife before that, they're somebody's sister before that, there's somebody is best friend. Yeah. And it's just crazy to me how this is not a conversation that is talked about enough.

00:02:56:01 - 00:03:16:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

here's one of my theories. And then let's jump into how do you know you have a friend who is toxic. But I think it's because we have fortunately we have equated femininity with toxicity and we don't even know it. There was a study that came out in the 1970s. I actually got to meet one of the researchers. He went to the graduate school that I trained at, and it had a list of adjectives,

00:03:16:23 - 00:03:36:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

and it was very simple, very simple design. It said, list the adjectives applied to a healthy man, list the adjectives apply to a healthy woman and then list the adjectives that apply to a mental health patient. Now the men's list. Yeah, the men's list were what you would imagine. Confident, bold. You know, outgoing, assertive. All these types of things that are positive.

00:03:36:07 - 00:03:40:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

The women's list actually correlated strongly with the mental health patient.

00:03:40:10 - 00:03:41:14

Sabrina Kirberg

Wow.

00:03:41:15 - 00:04:11:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. So she essentially we did in the past anyway, coming up through the 60s and 70s, we've defined femininity as toxic. That that's the typical woman is weak passive aggressive, you know, whiny, emotional. All the things that you would use to define a mental health patient we've used and mentally thought of is regards to women. So if a the person is looking for the right, the woman the perfect, I'm thinking more romantically, you're going to accidentally pick qualities that are not going to be easy to live with.

00:04:11:20 - 00:04:26:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You know so trusting. Yeah it is so tell me a little bit about how you realized your relationship with toxic and what happened. and then also let's start talking about what is toxicity in female friendships.

00:04:26:06 - 00:04:49:14

Sabrina Kirberg

So I didn't necessarily realize I was in a emotionally abusive toxic friendship until way later, while I was in it. I think the biggest word that I can use was I was just confused. It was like I was walking through a haze the whole time. My reality just felt like I was fighting myself with doubt all the time.

00:04:49:15 - 00:05:09:16

Sabrina Kirberg

I would think one way and I would see reality another way, and then she would twist it. And it was way that was, I don't even know how to explain it because I can't twist words like that. It was so methodical, to the point where I started to question what was going on and what actually happened.

00:05:09:19 - 00:05:34:22

Sabrina Kirberg

And then I remember I would have to replay my reality over and over and over and over again and retell it to myself, just to make sure that I experienced it. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how it felt. not only that you deal with that, but you also deal with them bringing in other people, and then suddenly they're telling other people their version of the story.

00:05:34:22 - 00:06:02:14

Sabrina Kirberg

So then not only are you doubting yourself, but now other people are making you doubt yourself and gaslit yourself even more. So then you end up in this place where you're like, I must be insane and I must be crazy because not only she telling me this reality now, all these mutual friends are telling me the exact reality But when you think about it, no one has actually asked you what has happened and how you seen it and your reality of things.

00:06:02:14 - 00:06:26:15

Sabrina Kirberg

It's just kind of like they immediately believe the storyline that this narcissistic person has concocted and created, and it's quite interesting because I've seen it too, where when they tell you that story, they come up with so much pity and it's very like I'm trying to help them, who like, poor me, I'm trying to be the best person I can possibly be,

00:06:26:15 - 00:06:45:03

Sabrina Kirberg

and you fall for that. And it's insane because I've seen it both ways. I've had her do that to me, to other people, about other people. And then I've had it twisted where it's done to me. And you just sit there and you're like, wow, no wonder all these people believe her because of course she's going to be like, oh, poor me, poor me.

00:06:45:07 - 00:06:59:18

Sabrina Kirberg

I'm trying to help her. She's just blind. She doesn't want to see it. She doesn't want this help. And I don't know what else to do. Can you help me? And you just feel like you're falling into this place of insanity. That's it? Yeah, that's how I can explain it.

00:06:59:18 - 00:07:16:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. In fact, I've had this happen. I wonder if you've had it happen to where they triangulate other people. That's what you're describing, the triangulation. And then The way they do it, they pitch it to the outsider as if you're doing it to them. So the outsider feels like you're the offender and that they've been pulled into the middle.

00:07:16:18 - 00:07:33:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And then that person goes, tells you, and that acts as if you're the one. Started all of this when you didn't even know that it was happening. Yep. Does that make sense? What I'm saying that's and it's like and when I when it's happened to me, I've stood back to like, wait a minute, I didn't create that. I didn't tell you that.

00:07:33:03 - 00:07:45:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And why are you having an issue with me? You're the one telling me I didn't. I had nothing to do with this. but you feel like You start to act it out as if you are engaged in this conflict that not even actually happening because they created the whole scenario.

00:07:45:21 - 00:08:08:18

Sabrina Kirberg

Exactly. But it's honestly crazy making because. if you already have like a problem doubting yourself, it makes it worse. And I honestly believe my own theory is like the only way to combat someone that is narcissistic is to have no doubt. Or least you don't doubt yourself too much. You have that confidence in your own reality and the choices that you make.

00:08:08:20 - 00:08:13:13

Sabrina Kirberg

But any time that you kind of second guess yourself, no, they'll take advantage.

00:08:13:17 - 00:08:31:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, you're right. And if you're compassionate, there's where you're super vulnerable because you want to hear both sides as if there's two sides to this, without realizing that you've abandoned your side, that the fact that you were the one hurt in the first place, which probably brought the issue up, which probably started all the trauma. All right. The drama. I should have you say. Yeah, it's hard.

00:08:31:14 - 00:08:42:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It's kind of traumatizing, but it's a drama But it's amazing how they use a pretty sophisticated form of Davo, which is. Oh yeah. Yeah. Making themselves the victim by the fact that you have an issue.

00:08:42:15 - 00:08:58:07

Sabrina Kirberg

Yeah. Any time you bring up the problem itself, you notice it's never about conflict resolution. But somehow when you have this conversation with them, they spin it to make it all about them. And then you feel like your conflict resulting their problem.

00:08:58:09 - 00:08:59:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:59:05 - 00:09:00:13

Sabrina Kirberg

Not with your problem,

00:09:00:15 - 00:09:19:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

which is really their problem is the fact that you have a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And that circular argument. You're right. It is so confusing because if you don't remember, what was the main point when you walked in, what is it that you wanted resolved. You're going to lose it because they're going to spin it so fast and you'll start defending yourself.

00:09:19:02 - 00:09:26:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And that's to me isn't I see that as one of the signs like, oh, this is really going wrong when I'm having to explain and justify and defend.

00:09:26:21 - 00:09:52:07

Sabrina Kirberg

Yes. And I feel like if you haven't learned effective communication skills and you haven't learned how to conflict resolute, well, you can also be, a victim because they love people that do not want to argue. They love, they prey on them. And if you're somebody that is afraid to say your piece and stand up for yourself into conflict resolute fix a problem or discuss it in general.

00:09:52:10 - 00:09:55:05

Sabrina Kirberg

Yeah, they they stick to you. They prey on you.

00:09:55:08 - 00:10:03:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So what are some signs that people should be watching for that would say this is a person that may be a dangerous person to have a relationship with.

00:10:03:12 - 00:10:26:11

Sabrina Kirberg

I would say love bombing in the friendship. And it's, it's one of those ways where it's, it's not like, oh, excitement. It's deeper than that. It's more like they come in and they suddenly want to fast forward the friendship where you just met this person. Maybe an hour, maybe two hours, and suddenly they're using words like, we're best friends now.

00:10:26:11 - 00:10:49:05

Sabrina Kirberg

We're going to hang out all the time, and they're creating plans with you that you never agreed upon. They're saying things like, you should come to my wedding. You should be my maid of honor. Just kind of like the the future faking type of talk, then it's a lot of mirroring your own likes, desires, dislikes, goals, all that.

00:10:49:05 - 00:11:08:23

Sabrina Kirberg

So it's sort of. I say it in a way where, for example, it could be something silly, like, oh, I like playing tennis. And then suddenly they're obsessed with tennis and they don't give you that individuality where you can have your own thing. Nope. You like tennis and you play every weekend. Suddenly they incorporate themselves and you didn't even invite them.

00:11:08:23 - 00:11:23:14

Sabrina Kirberg

Suddenly they're like, oh, you need to invite me. Let's play tennis together. And when you don't, they start spinning it and making you feel guilty for it. it's just a lot all at once. And it's this person feels like they're too good to be true at the same time.

00:11:23:19 - 00:11:42:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it's similar to what happens in a romantic relationship. But with a friendship angle onto it. It's what I hear. So it's the same rush to a relationship with the future, faking and imagining that you guys are almost like best friends, soulmates forever. They don't use sort of loved words, but they're going to use best friend words they're match and that you're the one.

00:11:42:13 - 00:11:57:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But why do you think we're so susceptible to this? Because I know for me it's felt very appealing. And maybe that's speaking to my vulnerabilities, but Do you think all of us are susceptible to this, or do you think there's some things that make some of us more vulnerable than others?

00:11:57:01 - 00:12:25:15

Sabrina Kirberg

I think all of us might be susceptible to this because it's not talked about in friendships, so we might not even notice it. I think we notice it more in romantic relationships because we're more on vetting the guy. So when we go into dates, we're really looking into this person and seeing if they're a match. But when it comes to friends, we just don't really vet the person. We kind of see if we have a good vibe in the beginning, and if it's fun, then we're like, oh, I like this person.

00:12:25:15 - 00:12:32:03

Sabrina Kirberg

They have a good vibe and you kind of get stuck in a friendship that could be emotionally abusive.

00:12:32:07 - 00:12:40:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. You make it a really good point that we offer trust way too readily to too rapidly. And we don't anticipate danger in relationships.

00:12:40:18 - 00:12:46:16

Sabrina Kirberg

Yeah. Because we don't assume that there would be abuse in a friendship. We don't think that.

00:12:46:18 - 00:13:06:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And yet here's what I hear. And I've heard this from multiple people, and I'm curious of your opinion that some people say this is almost more damaging than a romantic relationship. Now, I'm not undermining the legal, financial devastation that getting out of a toxic marriage could have for somebody. But there is something very unique about the emotional connection that we have with a friend.

00:13:07:01 - 00:13:31:23

Sabrina Kirberg

I think it has something to do with our femininity. I think when it comes to friends, we are so very vulnerable with them. Like there are things we discuss with our friends that we don't discuss with our mothers, like even bodily functions like, what we've done in sexual situations with other partners. And it's so deep, it is so vulnerable.

00:13:31:23 - 00:13:44:09

Sabrina Kirberg

And I feel like that's the big reason why it ends up becoming super, super painful and hurtful is because we, opened ourselves up and it's just such a vulnerable relationship.

00:13:44:16 - 00:14:12:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

didn't realize until I started assessing the reciprocity to relationships that sometimes I was more vulnerable than they were, and I didn't. see the inequity. I didn't realize I'm sharing about something that's gut wrenching, but when it comes to them sharing, they don't tell me until after it's already happened. So there's a big difference. If you're going in the middle of it when you're in pain and you're looking for help or just a place event, you're much more. emotionally open and vulnerable than somebody who tells you after it's all done and what how they felt about it.

00:14:12:02 - 00:14:24:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

In retrospect, it was just those types of subtleties. I thought, you know, there's not the same type of risk here. I'm assuming way more risk and taking much more steps of trust here than this person is actually showing me.

00:14:24:06 - 00:14:39:21

Sabrina Kirberg

Yes, 100%. And when we talk to our best friends, our friends, it's always I mean, I'm not going to speak for everybody, but most of the time it is while it's happening that we have these conversations. Yeah. While we're going through the ebbs and flows of our emotional

00:14:39:21 - 00:14:47:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

state, how does someone get to the point where they think there's something wrong, like what should they be noticing that's indications of risk?

00:14:47:15 - 00:15:10:09

Sabrina Kirberg

it's silly, but gut feeling. Yeah. You know, something's off. But the thing is, because this is not discussed about enough, we kind of ignore the gut feeling when it comes to friends, but you can tell when someone's trying to flip the conversation or make you unsee your own reality, that there is something wrong with that.

00:15:10:11 - 00:15:30:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I also think that what you said in the beginning is a really critical pieces, and that is if there's a lack of clarity, you're feeling profoundly confused and you're always feeling like you're doing something wrong. I mean, that's the other thing I heard in your story. I think those are really clear indicators of what I call cognitive dissonance, which is you don't know what's real, what's true.

00:15:30:12 - 00:15:35:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And that's a hallmark sign of my opinion of a toxic relationship. Is that intense confusion?

00:15:35:13 - 00:16:01:15

Sabrina Kirberg

Yes. But I think also, while it's happening to you in the moment, you don't really notice it. You don't. And it wasn't until maybe a year later, after the French breakup, when I started to go to therapy and I actually sat down with my therapist and I told her the entire story. Yeah, that I realized hearing it out loud, that it was worse than I thought.

00:16:01:16 - 00:16:15:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. I've had some of those two where I've looked back and thought, oh my goodness, how did I get in so deep and so far with this individual? Why did I not see that this was not healthy? Yeah, yeah. Did you feel I'm just curious because this happened to me. Did you feel at times like what was going on,

00:16:15:05 - 00:16:17:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

it was embarrassing enough that you didn't want to tell anybody else about it?

00:16:17:21 - 00:16:45:20

Sabrina Kirberg

Yes, yes. And I think worse because it was a friend. immediately, you know, telling your story, you get a lot of backlash where it's like, oh, this is just a friend. You're over complicating it. Get over it or they flip it to you must be in love with her. As if having a a romantic feelings is only valid, and not caring for someone platonically clearly doesn't exist.

00:16:45:22 - 00:17:09:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

that's fascinating. As if you can't have a super deep relationship platonically. Yeah, In fact, you know, some of the most intense love poems aren't necessarily about a partner or but of the opposite sex. It's actually like, well, I think one was about a father talking about his son or about friendship. So it's an interesting how we've these days have watered down these other relationships, as less than then when it comes to a romantic relationship.

00:17:09:08 - 00:17:14:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But emotionally, they're not less than. They're just as significant and powerful as a romantic relationship can be. Yeah.

00:17:14:22 - 00:17:40:03

Sabrina Kirberg

And I personally would say it's more and I think it's more because when it comes to a romantic relationship, we've been taught how to go through the breakup. we've been taught how to recover the breakup. We have not been taught how to recover a friendship breakup. In fact, it is actually very isolating and lonely. Once you, lose a friend, there could be consequences of mutual friends being lost as well.

00:17:40:06 - 00:18:00:10

Sabrina Kirberg

There could be the consequence of nobody really wants to reach out to talk to you about it because it is just a friend and usually with a romantic breakup, you have all your girls come over, you have ice cream, you watch a sappy movie, you cry about it, you vent about it. They tell you, oh, he's nothing.

00:18:00:10 - 00:18:05:16

Sabrina Kirberg

You'll find better. But when it comes to our friendship breakup, you're by yourself grieving.

00:18:05:18 - 00:18:12:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So how did you come to decision that you did? Because I did. You go to this individual or go. No contact. What did you actually do?

00:18:12:08 - 00:18:37:20

Sabrina Kirberg

No. So I lived with this person. We were roommates, and, she was ghosting me or giving me the silent treatment while we lived together. And I tried on multiple occasions to try to have a conversation with her just to talk things out. I knew in my head that I didn't want to be friends with her. I just wanted to kind of have like that in conversation and be like, all right, let bygones be bygones.

00:18:37:20 - 00:19:02:15

Sabrina Kirberg

Clearly, this is not a friendship meant to last. Let's just move on. But she never had that conversation with me, and it made it even more painful because she was five steps away from me. So how somebody can just walk past you and pretend that you don't even exist? Or When I left the lease the last day, I said bye to my roommate, and then I want to say bye to her. And she hid in her room with the door locked.

00:19:02:18 - 00:19:12:12

Sabrina Kirberg

So it's just like all those little things where it's like, wow, you can ignore me and give me the silent treatment that much, but you can't have a conversation with me.

00:19:12:14 - 00:19:21:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

yeah, that's tough. Because then not only that, you had to go to a new place, start over, and probably, like you just said, you lost other relationships as a result of this.

00:19:21:11 - 00:19:32:01

Sabrina Kirberg

And there's a lot of people that I ended up not trusting because they were still friends with her. And I just, kind of cold turkey removed a lot of people unfortunately.

00:19:32:04 - 00:19:39:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So when you go into a relationship now, what steps do you take to protect yourself better from this possibly happening? If that's possible?

00:19:39:22 - 00:20:02:21

Sabrina Kirberg

I mean, I take my time when it comes to friends. I don't immediately label someone a friend until I've had significant amount of time with them. I think it's also very important to see how they react and behave with people that are the closest to them. The way they treat other people says a lot about somebody. And I am definitely very aware of the love bombing. I as

00:20:02:21 - 00:20:18:09

Sabrina Kirberg

soon as I see that and I've experienced a few, people that I was becoming friends with that started the love bombing and I realized this person is narcissistic and I had end that. But it's just paying attention a little bit closer.

00:20:18:13 - 00:20:39:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I think the other thing I've been doing, had to really be thinking about this as well, it's because it's something I've had happened a few times, is I don't rush to see myself as necessarily in relationship with somebody, hold myself a little separate longer instead of, because I get into a “we” mentality really easily super fast, like, we're in this together, we're going to make this work.

00:20:39:22 - 00:20:59:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And, you know, if we have a problem, we have to work it out. And I realize that that's maybe I'm doing that much too rapidly everywhere, not just romantically, but everywhere. And to stay longer in “Me what this is my project. This is about me. What's safe for me?” You know, a saying I've been saying a lot lately is I've been trying to prioritize personal safety over connection,

00:20:59:15 - 00:21:20:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

too often will prioritize connection over personal safety and not realize that we're betraying ourselves in that process. but here's the thing that I've found, Sabrina, is that this takes a long time. The jury can be out for years sometimes on some individuals, you know, we may think that we know somebody, but we really don't know what they're saying when they're not around us or how they conceptualize us.

00:21:20:19 - 00:21:28:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And to me, that's very disturbing, that there are people who can hide the fact that they're quite antagonistic for extremely long periods of time.

00:21:28:05 - 00:21:42:15

Sabrina Kirberg

Yeah, unfortunately, can't really hide from that, especially if they're very good at hiding their true self. But I also feel like you can learn a lot about somebody when there is a problem or a conflict.

00:21:42:19 - 00:21:51:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I think that's the the real test is like what happens in a conflict can make your your viewpoint. Can they do something with it useful? Can they come back? Is there efforts to repair?

00:21:52:02 - 00:22:04:09

Sabrina Kirberg

And at the same time, when you need to be celebrated, that's when you notice somebody to, oh, you know, weddings or baby showers, things like that where the, the spotlight is not on them.

00:22:04:09 - 00:22:05:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Do you watch Netflix much?

00:22:05:19 - 00:22:06:23

Sabrina Kirberg

I do sometimes, yeah.

00:22:06:23 - 00:22:11:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

There's a new show on called Running Point that features, Kate Hudson, as I'm

00:22:11:02 - 00:22:13:06

Sabrina Kirberg

sure I've seen previews of it. Yes.

00:22:13:06 - 00:22:31:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Okay. Well, near the end, there's a breakup and a relationship. the way that we're broke up at that, the her responses were so toxic. It's all the things he did for her, you know, not for who he was. And like, “Oh man,” and she missed big celebration moment in his life when. So you said that like yeah that's. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:22:31:23 - 00:22:55:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So let's jump over to the podcast. What I'd really like to talk about there is different types of toxic female friendships. You know, for example, I'm thinking of the queen bee is one of them or the mean girl. But let's go over and talk about different styles to watch for because they don't show up all the same. I'm super excited to talk to you about that. But also, how can people find you if they want to learn more about you and what you're doing today?

00:22:55:07 - 00:23:12:09

Sabrina Kirberg

Well, they can find me on TikTok. @The3rdSide They can also find me on Instagram at the same @The3rdSide_ I do have a book, called We Used to Be Best Friends, and I also have a podcast called We Used to Be Best Friends. So that's where they can find me.

00:23:12:10 - 00:23:19:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Awesome. Thank you so much. I'll make sure I put the link in the show notes for that. And thank you so much for being on. This was a really interesting topic and very timely.

00:23:19:20 - 00:23:25:09

Sabrina Kirberg

Thank you, Kerry. I really appreciate it. Well, that's

00:23:25:09 - 00:23:27:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me

00:23:27:23 - 00:23:28:03

Sabrina Kirberg

on

00:23:28:03 - 00:23:37:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic

00:23:37:13 - 00:23:41:08

Sabrina Kirberg

Free Relationship Club at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com.

00:23:40:16 - 00:23:41:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

00:23:41:12 - 00:23:42:18

Sabrina Kirberg

If you found this episode

00:23:42:18 - 00:23:48:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.