When Is It Really Over? The Top Signs a Dying Relationship

Is your relationship displaying signs that it’s over? Maybe it’s on its last legs, and you wonder if it can be saved?

In this episode, Dr. Becky Whetstone delves into the complexities of relationships, particularly focusing on the challenges faced during marriage crises. She shares her experiences and insights as a marriage therapist, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and recognizing the signs of an unhealthy relationship.

Looking for the Podcast Extra Interview with Dr. Becky Whetstone? 

🔹 What do you know that your relationship is no longer salvageable? Dr. Whetstone shares practical indicators of a dying relationship. Subscribe to our Podcast Exclusive newsletter to hear the extended interview.   Get immediate access to the interview with Dr. Becky Whetstone, along with expert tools and support to help you reclaim your peace.

👉 Join today: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

Learn more about Dr. Whetstone:

Website

Dr. Becky's Blog

Book: I (Think) I Want Out: What to Do When One of You Want to End Your Marriage

 ****************************************

Stay in Touch with Dr. Kerry!

• Youtube
• Instagram
• TikTok
• Facebook

More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Battling a Narcissist in Court: A Live Q&A with Judge Michele Locke

📅 June 10th at 6:30 p.m. CT | ⏰ 90 minutes | 💬 Survivor-Focused Guidance

Not a member yet? Upgrade now to get access to exclusive events like this!

👉 Learn more here: kerrymcavoyphd.com/club

Transcript

00:00:05:04 - 00:00:15:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Are you hoping your partner is going to change and save the relationship? Well, address that question. Doctor Becky Whetstone, author of I Think I Want Out, talks about the reality of

00:00:15:19 - 00:00:16:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

change

00:00:16:18 - 00:00:22:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

in toxic relationships.

00:00:23:01 - 00:00:44:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Today I am joined by Doctor Becky Whetstone, who just has a new book out called I think I Want to Leave and I'm really excited to have you here, Doctor Whetstone, because there's a big problems that happen when people are trying to leave a relationship, there's one. Should they leave when maybe they shouldn't? They should try harder. I remember actually meeting someone who said they regretted it, because it found the second marriage was just as tough as the first.

00:00:44:12 - 00:01:00:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

but there's a lot of people. And this is a group I see, who are in a marriage, you're working way too hard and probably the only member who's working and they don't recognize that they should leave. So first of all, I'd love to get to know you a little bit better. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got interested in this topic.

00:01:00:05 - 00:01:23:23

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Well, I'm a native Arkansan, so that will explain the southern accent that everyone hears here. And I, moved to Texas when I was in my mid-twenties and married a Texan. But prior to that, when I was a kid, I was always very interested in relationships. I always read the advice columns in every magazine. And I wanted to be Ann Landers and Dear Abby and those kind of guys.

00:01:24:03 - 00:01:49:14

Dr. Becky Whetstone

So my life's dream was to be a advice columnist. And I did get a degree in journalism. So I moved to Texas and, become a housewife at that time. and I'm married, a guy who ended up being very difficult, probably was a narcissist. And he was very seductive on the front end of the relationship. Extremely loving, just very validating.

00:01:49:14 - 00:02:09:02

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And I just couldn't believe how lucky I was. so handsome and all those things a great job. and then about six months into our marriage, he just turned cold on me, like, just shut the door on me. Like it was like a night and day thing, and I was just like, oh, my God, what happened? And at that time, we were in Australia.

00:02:09:02 - 00:02:43:10

Dr. Becky Whetstone

We were spending a year in Australia for part of his job. and this is before the internet, everyone.. . There wasn't even CNN back then. This was like 19. 85. and phone calls were like $8 an hour. I mean, I had no support system and I was just freaking out. And so, for the next five years, I kind of begged him to come back out and play with me, go back to how he was, and he would sometimes bite my head off for doing that and embarrass me, like, by leaving me stranded in a restaurant or something.

00:02:43:10 - 00:03:04:17

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And I'd have to get a taxi home. Or sometimes he would just say, okay, I will in a couple of weeks or after this next big thing at work. And over time, I realized that he was not going to do it. I mean, I realized he's a talker and not a doer, but at the same time, he was cold and mean and controlling

00:03:04:19 - 00:03:28:09

Dr. Becky Whetstone

and so my feelings toward the marriage were deteriorating significantly. I mean, he left for work before me, and the kids woke up and returned about bedtime. he would gobble down some food and go to sleep. And he worked on weekends also. So, it was I felt like I was a single mom who couldn't date in a way. toward maybe the last year

00:03:28:09 - 00:03:49:14

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I'm sort of telling him, the train's leaving the station, like, I can't hang on. And then he did something so nasty. He actually, I voted for somebody for president that he didn't like. then that person won, and in, 19, whatever it was, he said, okay, so when he gets sworn in in January, he wants to raise our taxes by 6%.

00:03:49:14 - 00:04:13:13

Dr. Becky Whetstone

So I am going to dock your allowance by 6%. And that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I just told myself I can't be married to someone. That would be so damn mean because he was making a ton more money every year. We did not have financial problems. He was an orthopedic surgeon and his practice was exploding.

00:04:13:16 - 00:04:36:11

Dr. Becky Whetstone

it just was done out of purity, meanness and control. And I told him, if you do that, there's going to be hell to pay. And he did it. I told myself when I got that check in my hand, I said, well, you're going to get divorced this year, sucker. then I just started buying my time, and, found an opportunity to sit him down and say, I'm at the end of the line, I want you to move out.

00:04:36:11 - 00:04:56:05

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I cannot handle it. And therein began our marriage crisis. And so we went to a marriage therapist in the marriage therapist said, well, if you're not motivated to work on the marriage, Becky, which I wasn't at that time, then there's nothing I can do. So you two go on and separate or whatever. And if you get motivated to work on the marriage, come back.

00:04:56:05 - 00:05:20:18

Dr. Becky Whetstone

and he was, like I said, a very difficult person. called him a hard ass. he just was difficult about everything. And he would always be mean and he was a mean person to be separated from and to be going through a marriage crisis with. But we had no one coaching us or anything like that. And I kept telling him like either if there's any chance to save this marriage, you need to be nice to me right now.

00:05:20:22 - 00:05:58:22

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And he told me, I can't, I can't. So we ended up divorced. I think prematurely our two little kids, paid such a heavy price for that. And the thing that bugged me the most was why couldn't the marriage therapist coaches help us and tell us what was going on, explain things to us because it was a crazy experience, a crazy phenomenon with our nervous systems all kicked up. So soon after that, I got a job at the newspaper, as a writer, and I started writing about relationships for the San Antonio Express-News, and I became kind of a relationship guru in town.

00:05:59:01 - 00:06:20:08

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I was on radio and TV and, and of course, in the paper and, the public would gripe that I didn't have credentials. So somebody told me back, you just go get a mail order degree to shut these people up. And I said, no, Becky'’s going to do the real thing. If she's going to do it at all, I'm not going to have to apologize to anybody.

00:06:20:08 - 00:06:44:04

Dr. Becky Whetstone

So I went to graduate school and then while I was in graduate school, I kind of fell in love with marriage and family therapy. and I spent every opportune pity that I could do some research on my own to try and answer that question why couldn't that marriage therapist help us when we had a marriage crisis? And sure enough, I learned that they didn't teach it in graduate school. We had a divorce and remarriage class.

00:06:44:04 - 00:07:03:01

Dr. Becky Whetstone

They never mentioned marriage crisis or anything like that, or strategies for that. Then I'm looking at the research and stuff and I'm going, oh my God, there's this great information out there that people would really benefit from knowing. and if nobody else is going to put it out there in the mainstream, then I feel duty bound to do that.

00:07:03:01 - 00:07:23:11

Dr. Becky Whetstone

So I as soon as I graduated from grad school in 2006, I started writing this book that only came out this past February. So I've been writing on it for 20 years, but I couldn't find anyone to publish it because they said it was too negative, because they wanted me to save every marriage at the very end of the book,

00:07:23:14 - 00:07:40:11

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And it was really about a phenomenon of marriage crisis. And, I named it, I Think I Want Out: What to Do When One of You Wants to End Your Marriage because it's describing from the moment someone walks in the room and says, I think I want out to how to handle it from start to finish all the way through.

00:07:40:15 - 00:08:04:04

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Whether you reconcile, whether you divorce and then the co-parenting and blending families and all that kind of stuff. So I'm now like kind of cradling people through this long process and it's just filling a void. And now I'm traveling around the United States to marriage and family therapy conferences, trying to get them to make this a thing in our program

00:08:04:04 - 00:08:34:10

Dr. Becky Whetstone

that is commonly known about by therapists. But there's so much good information in there. And for people that are currently married, teaches you how to diagnose your marriage. It, goes over common mental disorders and personality disorders, so you can be filled in on that. It also tells you how to discern whether you're being amused or not. and these are all important things that you need to consider. when you are on the fence about whether to stay or go.

00:08:34:14 - 00:08:55:01

Dr. Becky Whetstone

So, yeah, I just want people to make an educated decision and come out of that saying, I did everything I could to save the marriage. and then admitting that some marriages can't be saved and, here it is in this book and this therapist is telling me that, that these things can't be fixed. So maybe you can leave with less guilt Right.

00:08:55:01 - 00:09:10:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

you have a really fantastic analogy that I love and I talked about it similarly when I was counseling people. But in a very different way. And I love the language that you use. You talk about the leaning in versus the decider and this is the analogy I always used, and feel free to use it if you want to.

00:09:10:08 - 00:09:30:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It's like a marriage to me is like two people on a raft boat out in the middle of nowhere and one of them falls into the water and they're in trouble, and they try to get the attention of the person. Hello? I'm in trouble. Please help me. Please save me. Please invest something here to save us. And the person who's in the raft boat for some reason, doesn't seem to realize that partners in crisis. They

00:09:30:09 - 00:09:50:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

ignore all the signs and signals that this is that their partner is drowning and leaving, and eventually the partner in the water drowns and disappears. And then the partner in the boat suddenly, like, wakes up and thinks, oh, my partner is not here. And then they start to thrash and, get frantic and do a lot of effort. But by then the partner's already gone and they can't ever get them back.

00:09:50:15 - 00:10:12:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So that's what I picked up and I love that you addressing that. Why do you think people who are the ones who are not recognizing the signs and signals that there is something going wrong in a relationship you and I both are clinicians. We can look at this like there's personality types. but can you kind of put maybe what you think in big large lists of what causes a lack of awareness to another partner's distress.

00:10:12:22 - 00:10:44:15

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Well, first of all, all the research shows that both partners, were going through the process and were unhappy. it's just that one of them is going to be the one that makes a stand, and says, I think I want out. So both people are unhappy. But one of the crazy phenomenons I learned when I was researching was, in fact, this book called Uncoupling by Vaughn, a sociologist, was one of the first, researchers to delineate the stages in which a marriage dies.

00:10:44:18 - 00:11:22:02

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And her book is called uncoupling. And she has this sentence that I can never forget in that book. And she says, uncoupling begins with the secret. And the secret is I am extremely unhappy and this marriage, and I'm going to have an internal conversation with myself about this, and I'm not going to share it with my partner. In fact, the partner is going to be the last to know. but you can tell it in kind of passive aggressive things along the way as the person becomes more and more unhappy.

00:11:22:04 - 00:11:46:08

Dr. Becky Whetstone

But it blows my mind how many people are sitting there and heading toward a divorce, eventual marriage crisis, impossible divorce, who have had kids with the person they've had sex with, a person they they don't trip so the person and never have had the courage to tell them, I'm serious struggling in this relationship. But this is a phenomenon.

00:11:46:11 - 00:12:01:09

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I'm working with somebody right now, married 30 years, has two college aged kids, and he is barely hanging on and his marriage, and he still hasn't told his wife he's struggling in the marriage. It's just blows my mind.

00:12:01:11 - 00:12:21:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Okay, here's the part that blows my mind though, and I've had two marriages. The first ended when he passed away. It was widowed and the second marriage was a divorce. And the second marriage, by the way, was, it clinically, I believe he's a narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder, a mixed personality presentation. Okay, so marriage number one, really long, really long

00:12:21:05 - 00:12:28:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

but many times in the marriage, I thought, I want out I'm not happy. I wouldn't even mind if something happened that got me out.

00:12:28:09 - 00:12:29:09

Dr. Becky Whetstone

You mean like this.

00:12:29:13 - 00:12:31:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. a lot of people

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:41:00

Dr. Becky Whetstone

have death fantasies [I never want to say it], and for those of you out there that have them and say if he would just die I'd be, it'd be perfect. Don't feel bad. There's thousands of others

00:12:41:00 - 00:12:46:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

just like you. Yeah. And I felt ashamed of it. So then when I got the news that he had terminal cancer.

00:12:46:08 - 00:12:47:03

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Oh, no.

00:12:47:06 - 00:13:05:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You can imagine there is a mix of. I've never said this aloud relief, but grief. And of course, I then begin the heavy work of grieving, which was more devastating than I ever thought it would be. but there was also some relief because of the hard parts of the relationship was over. what even made the grief harder was he had a recognition,

00:13:05:06 - 00:13:17:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I think this was what made the loss of him even worse. Was it he recognized as he was dying the way he had failed me, and started actively talking. I've blown it here. I've ruined it with you. Wow. Yeah.

00:13:17:09 - 00:13:19:19

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Was that helpful to you from a healing... Yes.

00:13:19:19 - 00:13:36:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, but also sad because I knew I never got to live with that new version. Wow. So it was like I was losing what I wanted. But at least I got closure around that recognition of the way he had really blown it with me. I'm feeling teary. I'm coming up on his 10th and 10th anniversary of his death.

00:13:36:11 - 00:13:46:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So this has been quite a period of I've been kind of really retrospective and it and so it was a painful but welcomed acknowledgment of what had gone wrong.

00:13:46:03 - 00:14:11:13

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Wow. What a story. That's a powerful story. Well, believe it or not, years ago, because I always thought all widows were sad and just, devastated to see their partner go and how sad that was. But now somebody wrote an anonymous letter to Ann Landers and said, my husband died last week and everybody's being so sweet to me and nice. And they don't know how happy I am that the bomb is Gone at last.

00:14:11:17 - 00:14:25:13

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And so as a, lay person back then, I was like, oh my God. So not everybody's unhappy when their spouse dies? Of course not. I've known quite a few people who were completely relieved when their spouse passed away.

00:14:25:17 - 00:14:33:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So my question is this, and I'm actually a little embarrassed to ask you this. I assumed everybody at one point or another thought that had that secret

00:14:33:12 - 00:15:01:04

Dr. Becky Whetstone

thought of divorce. Yeah, look, truth be told, I think a huge amount of people have the thought briefly, but not seriously, and I think, some people wonder like, is this all there is? I feel kind of stuck here, but they're not in the deterioration process that that research shows. Because what will happen is, in the beginning the first stage is disillusionment.

00:15:01:06 - 00:15:24:10

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Oh. I think I'm unhappy. But I know marriages have, ups and downs, so I'll just wait and see how it goes. But when they hit stage two and they go, oh no, this is serious, this isn't going away. And it could lead to divorce. That's the missing piece that the people had, I could get a divorce and probably be okay, but they're not in stage two saying no, this is serious.

00:15:24:10 - 00:15:45:23

Dr. Becky Whetstone

This could lead to divorce. but I don't want a divorce. And so they decide that they're unhappy. But at least for the time being, they're not going to divorce. And they always have many reasons why they don't want a divorce. So that's stage two. So I don't think those of us who have ever had those fleeting divorce thoughts reach that stage of seriousness.

00:15:45:23 - 00:16:05:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I see another phenomena though. And this is something kind of ties more to the audience that I know listens to this, is that many of them, they are so long suffering. they have a personality trait. So they're very agreeable people. They have a lot of conscientiousness. And they can sense that if they make a radical decision and if it's wrong, they don't know if they can live with themselves.

00:16:05:15 - 00:16:18:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

They don't know if they can live with the damage they may have done to their family or to their kids. And they also know that probably with this partner, there's no take back. what things should they be paying attention to that would really help them know this isn't savable. I can't tell you how often I get asked that question.

00:16:18:21 - 00:16:19:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, first

00:16:19:15 - 00:16:46:15

Dr. Becky Whetstone

of all, I have this really wise professor not talk about him in my book. Doctor Coiner. Think I even talk about this anecdote that I'm getting ready to give you. He told us one night, people don't change that much. The most you can expect a person to change is about 5%. And I was like, wow, because, I think that it before you start like, really studying this and then working in the field and stuff, we all imagine people can really change and grow.

00:16:46:19 - 00:17:12:04

Dr. Becky Whetstone

But I'm one of the people that I think is in the 5% that I started out life. I was raised by narcissists and my siblings were all narcissists, and I was the baby of the family. And so I came out of that, pretty messed up. And so I was having a train wreck, young adulthood. but I had a voice in my head that said, you need to go figure this out, because this in the way you're supposed to be.

00:17:12:06 - 00:17:36:22

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And I wanted to go find out am I crazy or are they crazy, or are we all crazy? So, I was in the 5% of people who are seekers, and they grew up in a very damaged environment, and they seek to climb out of it and they go get help. Okay. But 95% of people are complacent and they are not seekers.

00:17:36:22 - 00:18:04:18

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And I'm into childhood trauma. I was trained by Pia Melody, who wrote Facing Codependence. And the reason she calls the book Facing Codependency is because people with childhood trauma won't face the things they need to face to go into recovery from it. They literally sit in their unhappiness and do nothing. That's 95% of the population. In my view, in my experience.

00:18:04:18 - 00:18:20:14

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And so I think most therapists know, like we we want to help everybody. We want to see everybody do a 180, and just thrive. But you get out of it what you put into it. And if you're in the 95% of it, you're just not gonna fight for it. You have to fight for it.

00:18:20:14 - 00:18:44:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Doctor George Simon, in his book Character Disturbance, there's a list of behaviors he says that is looks like pro change behavior when they're actually responsibility avoidance. And I think a lot of us missed that. And it certainly was true in my second relationship. But I ended up marrying the worst combination of my childhood trauma. Any bad person I could have ever met in my life, I felt like was like packed into this one person.

00:18:44:15 - 00:18:47:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Oh, mine. What was What was it? I watched her

00:18:47:12 - 00:18:48:19

Dr. Becky Whetstone

with a bunch of kids.

00:18:48:23 - 00:19:05:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, in fact, I actually told him, hey, why? If I had this conversation with him, I wrote about it in a book called Love You More, actually said to him, what I realized is, I thought you were a good guy who's sometimes a monster. And I realized you're a monster who sometimes is a good guy. He literally turned gray, starts sweating and then said, I'm glad

00:19:05:08 - 00:19:07:22

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Oh, cringe. Yeah, I

00:19:07:22 - 00:19:33:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

know, I know, I know. But one of the things he did that was so good and I see this over and over in my membership, and that is he would do pro change behavior. He was going to therapy. He was reading the books. He's underlying the books he was reading. He'd have discussions with me about the topics, and it looked like he was working while he was secretly doing things that were devastating to the relationship, massive betrayals to the relationship.

00:19:33:09 - 00:19:51:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So it was all a ruse. It wasn't real. But how many times I see that there's this intermittent reinforcement of, no, it's going to get better, sometimes people know how to keep the other person, just in it enough so that they don't leave until the the person who is really not invested decides it's over on their, terms. Well, I

00:19:51:14 - 00:20:03:16

Dr. Becky Whetstone

think he had a sense of when I was at the end of my rope and he would be nice to me for a little while Now he'd been I told myself he just senses when I've just run out of patience with this,

00:20:03:19 - 00:20:13:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But many people don't have the insight that you had that you picked that up and then identified it. A lot of people don't identify that. So how can they get better at seeing that?

00:20:13:01 - 00:20:35:18

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I think that a huge part of being a healthy adult is being super tuned-in to yourself. Like I tell people, you're like a radio station, tuned in to whatever radio station you are, but you have to be tuned in to your spouse's radio station as well. And when you're tuned in to someone else, you pick up on their energy.

00:20:35:22 - 00:20:58:17

Dr. Becky Whetstone

your your intuition can feel things. You can feel things in yourself, but you can feel things and vibes coming from other people. And so I just think being self-aware and then aware of the energy of others around you and really paying attention. Is what helps me pick up on those things. I can really I can see it in my clients,

00:20:58:17 - 00:21:18:06

Dr. Becky Whetstone

and you're talking about people who underline books, but they're really not going to change. some of them are, putting on a performance, right? Right. Putting on a performance. But at the end of the day, the bottom line is they go back to what they were like, if the person ends up divorcing them anyway, they're just they're not going to keep on their self-help journey.

00:21:18:08 - 00:21:19:01

Dr. Becky Whetstone

They're going

00:21:19:02 - 00:21:19:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

to they're only

00:21:19:21 - 00:21:43:00

Dr. Becky Whetstone

doing it to keep you from leaving, at that moment. And they'll go. back. I was working in the last year with someone who is a terrible control freak and a narcissist, and, and his wife was just in anguish, just fed up and crying like, it's just so sad to see he’s just worn her out And so he said to me, what happens if I do all this work?

00:21:43:05 - 00:21:58:12

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And she doesn't change and she doesn't take me back? And I said, you need to do this for yourself, not to win her back. And he said, well, what if my next partner likes it? And I said, they won't.

00:21:58:14 - 00:21:59:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I don't think he believed you.

00:21:59:22 - 00:22:23:01

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I think he did. But I mean, he ended up firing me, as most narcissists do. Yeah. When sometimes, in this particular case with this particular couple, the woman over time became more and more of a basket case and emotional. I mean, falling apart, just crying. Basket case. as she was separated, she was loving the separation. She did not miss him.

00:22:23:01 - 00:22:43:10

Dr. Becky Whetstone

She does not love him. And so I said to her in one of our managed separation meetings, you look like you're ready to end this. Like. And I told her, I don't know how much more you can take. your health is really going to start, breaking apart if you stay like you have been the past few weeks. So are you ready to end this now?

00:22:43:14 - 00:22:55:17

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And she said, I am, I really am I'm ready to end it now. I'm ready to divorce. so we ended the session and then he canceled all our sessions after that. Like, no more like so

00:22:55:18 - 00:23:10:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

yeah, yeah, I suspect mine didn't continue the minute that he left. He left me finally. And I think the minute he walked up and I needed that. By the way, that was paper from me, this guy, I figured if I left him in the wrong way, there's going to be danger. So I wanted him to leave me. Yeah.

00:23:10:11 - 00:23:14:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So when he left me, I. I'm assuming he never thought. I think the guy who

00:23:14:05 - 00:23:37:05

Dr. Becky Whetstone

ordered me, though, just went back to controlling and trying to pull her back, sucker back into the marriage. He somehow talked to her and to not divorcing like, it's just as so long as divorce one on the table, he'd play the game, but I guarantee you right now he's somewhere trying to suck her back in and, avoid divorce.

00:23:37:07 - 00:23:40:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, it comes back to what you said. Only 5% change

00:23:40:07 - 00:23:50:14

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And so guys out there, chances are your partner's not going to change. And even if they did change, it isn't going to be that much. Even the 5% or sometimes don’t change that much.

00:23:50:17 - 00:24:12:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, yeah, that was the other statistic I had heard. I don't remember the percentage, but the percentage of difference was very minuscule. I mean, even in the best of circumstances. And you and I both can attest to that, to what we've seen in the office, people don't profoundly shift their identity. It's it is what it is. It may be they might soften some edges and be a little less brisk or crude or hurtful around some things.

00:24:12:22 - 00:24:16:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But when it really comes down to the day, this is who this person

00:24:16:10 - 00:24:25:08

Dr. Becky Whetstone

is, there's no doubt. I mean, you can't change someone's personality. That's a finite thing, Now they can change their beliefs and values

00:24:25:10 - 00:24:26:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

00:24:26:00 - 00:24:49:11

Dr. Becky Whetstone

and yeah, habits and, learn boundaries and they can work on their self-esteem and things like that. But how many people are going to do it? Not that many. I wish we taught all this in junior high so people could learn what it is to be healthy in junior high. But we do in our culture doesn't teach us. And our families are terrible examples. in my clients sit out there having all these great expectations of humans and humanity, and I'm like, what,

00:24:49:15 - 00:25:04:05

Dr. Becky Whetstone

95% are pretty dysfunctional. Like, why are you having these high expectations? Well, I never told you that was that. People are going to lie. And you'd expect people aren't going to, do the wrong thing. I mean, we have a dysfunctional culture. It's just the way it is [yeah, yeah]

00:25:04:05 - 00:25:22:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

yeah, that was a statistic that shocked me. Years and years ago, I asked a similar question. one of my supervisors in graduate training was, the disciplinary chairman of the state for a psychologist. And so I asked him and I knew he'd seen lots of people. He had a private practice. He also work ethic. Yet your cost of just saw lots and lots of people.

00:25:22:17 - 00:25:40:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And he was seeing psychologists too, who were in trouble. So I just knew he had a very fascinating perspective. So I said what percentage of all of us do you think is healthy? He said, 7%. I don't know where he ever got that number, but I'm like crap, that's not good. That means, like, that's less than, you know, and slightly more than 1 in 5.

00:25:40:13 - 00:25:59:15

Dr. Becky Whetstone

I hate to come on here and tell all your listeners that the situation is bleak. Yeah, but it is it just is so then at the end of the day, like in Doctor Coiner and this is another thing, I'll put my book because he was such a wise man. he told us that when you have a problem there's only three solutions.

00:25:59:15 - 00:26:21:17

Dr. Becky Whetstone

One is accept things the way they are. The next is to try and create change. But we just had a long conversation about the odds. People changing. Yeah. And then the last one is to get rid of it. So those of you that are, are married to people that aren't going to change you have two choices accepted the way it is and stop griping about it.

00:26:21:17 - 00:26:29:21

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Just just be all in and find some way to be happy on your own within this crazy mess or, you know, away from it.

00:26:30:01 - 00:26:40:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, yeah, I know. For those who are very stickler about statistics that I said it wrong, it's less than 1 in 10 is healthy, less than 1 in 10. So 10%. So 7%. That's a

00:26:40:11 - 00:26:41:11

Dr. Becky Whetstone

sad statement.

00:26:41:11 - 00:26:57:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And it is a sad statistic. And then I had a conversation with Sandra Brown about how many people she thought was predatory. She said roughly 1 in 5, about 20%. 00I know, I know. And when you add up all the cluster B, government statistics, it they do add up roughly to that number.

00:26:58:00 - 00:27:09:12

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Oh, really? Well, it's gone up. And I think in my book the only statistics I could find was one. And I think it was one and ten have personality disorders. But I think it's more than that don't you.

00:27:09:12 - 00:27:11:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Oh I definitely it's more than that.

00:27:11:13 - 00:27:12:12

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Yeah for sure I think.

00:27:12:12 - 00:27:13:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Oh yeah. Yeah yeah.

00:27:13:12 - 00:27:19:20

Dr. Becky Whetstone

It's just like most statistics what percent are really happy in marriage? I think those are wrong. I think the statistics are wrong.

00:27:20:05 - 00:27:47:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

know why the statistics are wrong for the DSM five, for the cluster B personalities, because they don't come in and they're not reimbursable for insurances. So it's really not any reason for us to, one to diagnose them, but also they're just not motivated to change because they feel entitled and privileged and special. Of course. I want to get to how people can find you, but let's hop over to the podcast extra and talk about just absolute signs of disaster in a relationship that maybe we miss.

00:27:48:00 - 00:27:58:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

If you talk about characteristics that are warnings, maybe we can talk about what is a sign that this relationship is not healthy. and I'd love to get into that with you. But where can people find you? and where can they find the book?

00:27:59:00 - 00:28:22:02

Dr. Becky Whetstone

People can find me on my website at Marriage Crisis manager.com. I want people to know also that I'm a prolific blog writer, and you'll find the doc Dr. Becky blog on medium, and I'm trying to just download everything I know in those blogs and my book is I think I want out what to do when one of you wants to end your marriage.

00:28:22:02 - 00:28:31:22

Dr. Becky Whetstone

And that's at all major bookstores and audio book, digital and hard copy. and I read the audio book so that southern drawl.

00:28:32:00 - 00:28:36:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

that's wonderful. So thank you so much for joining me today. Doctor Whetstone I a wonderful to meet you.

00:28:36:22 - 00:28:39:21

Dr. Becky Whetstone

Thank you. Well, that's

00:28:39:21 - 00:28:49:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy Ph.D. Or you can learn

00:28:49:00 - 00:28:49:07

Dr. Becky Whetstone

about

00:28:49:07 - 00:29:00:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five

00:29:00:02 - 00:29:02:04

Dr. Becky Whetstone

star review and I'll see you back

00:29:02:04 - 00:29:03:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

here next week.