How Your Relationship Changes When Your Partner Has Narcissism and ADHD

Can someone be both narcissistic and neurodivergent?

This week, ADHD coach and neurodiversity educator Sheila Henson joins Dr. Kerry to explore the nuanced overlap between narcissistic traits and ADHD. Together, they unpack how these two very different dynamics can sometimes co-exist—and what that means for the health of your relationship.

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To learn more about Sheila Henson:

Website: https://www.sheilahenson.com

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@adhdcoachsheila

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adhdcoachsheila

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

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Transcript

00:00:04:14 - 00:00:24:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Many of our partners who have narcissistic traits often struggle with ADHD. Is there a connection between ADHD and narcissism? To answer that question, Sheila Henson joins me to talk about the overlap of these two disorders.

00:00:24:22 - 00:00:45:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I'm so excited today to have Sheila Hansen on I Found you, Sheila, on TikTok. And that's how I become first aware of your content. And you were talking about ADHD and autism. And of course, I got my interest because I'm an autistic person. But I also was very aware that in that toxic relationship my narcissistic ex often complained they had ADHD.

00:00:45:04 - 00:01:04:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And as a psychologist, I recognized symptoms of it. But I ended up wondering, though, how these arenas narcissism and ADHD and AuDHD, I know I always say that wrong, how they kind of like overlap or show up together. So why don't you tell us first of all, a little bit about yourself, how you got interested in this, and then we can jump into these topics?

00:01:04:11 - 00:01:27:06

Sheila Hensen

Sure. I'm an ADHD coach and neurodiversity educator. And the thing about working with ADHD is that you do end up working with, autism, bipolar, and lots of trauma and personality disorders. so I have had, over 20 years of experience in the field doing things like this. So lots of exposure to neurodiversity, you know, which I absolutely love. I'm just fascinated by brains and nervous systems and always have been.

00:01:27:07 - 00:01:47:22

Sheila Hensen

And part of that is growing up in a very neurodivergent family. I have like a very large, close knit family. There's a lot of, ADHD, there's autism, there's bipolar, there's schizophrenia. There's, probably some personality disorders in it. so, that was something that from birth, I feel like I was kind of born into, like, I was kind of born into the field. and especially being the oldest of, like 16 cousins that all have these things.

00:01:47:22 - 00:02:05:10

Sheila Hensen

And then made ADHD and because I was more of the, shut up and don't cause problems hysteria, even though everything was messy. And, I had all of more inattentive symptoms when I was younger. I didn't realize it was me. So I was the helper. And then later I realized, oh, wait, I need help, too. I think that's a very common, story.

00:02:05:12 - 00:02:21:20

Sheila Hensen

So I got into doing that and I and, especially fascinated by personality disorders because of the stigma. And the majority of my career has been working with people who in some way or another, cause harm through their behavior. And a lot of those people are autistic, and a lot of them are ADHD, and a lot of them have personality disorders.

00:02:21:20 - 00:02:42:00

Sheila Hensen

And because I, was in, crisis prevention and things like that. I have, sort of interesting take in that I I think a lot of people are in a very important lane of helping victims of abuse. And my lane is more helping the abusers to not abuse. and, regardless of what the sort of origin of why those abusive behaviors are happening.

00:02:42:04 - 00:02:44:22

Sheila Hensen

So, yeah, I'm really fascinated by all of the stuff.

00:02:45:01 - 00:03:02:16

Sheila Hensen

That’s interesting. So identify, first of all, for those who are maybe like I've heard of ADHD, but I'm not exactly sure. And I also know that the field has changed a lot. So I know that I'm out of date, for example, kind of what's the current state like? What are we calling what there is to be ADHD with hyperactivity?

00:03:02:16 - 00:03:22:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And then there used to be, and then one what this more distractible is that still like two separate categories or just kind of explain what this is. Yeah, sure. So the thing about neurodiversity right now is that we're sort of in like this revolution, it's kind of the wild West. And so depending on who you're talking to, they're going to be using different terminology and have a different, definition.

00:03:23:00 - 00:03:44:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Right. So ADHD in one lane is a disorder, in the DSM. And there are three presentations inattentive presentation, hyperactive presentation and combined presentation. Okay. In the US so you can have all I have every single one of these, symptoms. Let's check them all. I feel, proud of that, but some people are only going to be on the more inattentive side, having trouble focusing.

00:03:44:17 - 00:04:05:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Maybe zoning out a lot versus the hyperactivity side is maybe blurting things out. Can't stop moving things like that. And some people, vacillate between the two. And we call them presentations, not types, because, you can change. Like I said, when I was younger and I had maybe less self-confidence and, and I maybe was less healthy in a lot of ways.

00:04:05:13 - 00:04:34:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I had a much more inattentive presentation. And once I hit puberty and, figured certain things out, that hyperactivity really came in, and I think I present a lot more hyperactive now, do you think that ADHD ever, coexists with other disorders? I know some people think things are caused by. And I get really edgy because rarely it's causal. But help us understand maybe how narcissism and ADHD might be co-occurring or how they even they would show up.

00:04:34:09 - 00:05:00:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So actually if you have ADHD, you're much more likely to have a lot of different things, statistically. So if you're ADHD, you're more likely to be autistic, so you're more likely to have dyslexia, you're more likely to have dyscalculia and more likely to have, personality disorder. and I think that the reason, is the problem with all of this research is that it's new and it's only in the last, I don't know, decade or something that like ADHDers are researching ADHD autistics or researching autism, etc..

00:05:00:09 - 00:05:16:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And so a lot of the research that we have, it's amazing. It's great. I'm glad we have it. I definitely pay a lot of attention to it. And I take everything with a grain of salt. Like these people were looking at this as like a problem to be solved, like, how are these brains and nervous systems annoying us?

00:05:16:06 - 00:05:38:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

How are they sucking at capitalism? How can we fix people, And so everything I say. I'm like, as far as we know right now, in my understanding, blah, blah, blah, right? Because we really don't know. But what it looks like, the research shows that both ADHD and autism are genetic, to a high degree. There are other factors that are going to affect the presentation of it, but highly, highly, hereditary.

00:05:38:15 - 00:06:00:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So, the cause of autism and ADHD, it's genetics and environmental factors are going to affect our genetic, presentation. So there's that. And with ADHD and autism we have more sensitive nervous system. So trauma is not an experience right. Trauma is the how the experience changes our body. And brain trauma is a physical change in our brain and nervous system. Right?

00:06:00:15 - 00:06:23:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

ADHDers and autistics are shown to be more susceptible to trauma in that way. Personality disorders, all of them, as far as I know, are born of trauma. Right. And so it stands to reason in my mind that if you're ADHD, you're autistic, you will be more likely to be BPD, NPD, etc.. That makes sense. We don't know that for sure.

00:06:23:09 - 00:06:40:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We don't know exactly how everything, there's no blood test for any of this. There's no you can't go back and look at somebody, entire life story because we're bad. self-reports. Right? Like, I remember going to therapy and being like, no, I don't have trauma. And then my therapist just looking at me horrified while I told her my childhood stories,

00:06:40:08 - 00:07:01:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

like, I definitely have trauma. And a lot of trauma responses are maladaptive and can harm people, I think that there's a genetic component to us having a lot of co-occurring conditions with ADHD. But I think also just that sensitivity that we have, is going to make us more likely to have mental illnesses or things that, can cause problems because of that.

00:07:01:13 - 00:07:25:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, interestingly enough, we're still out on the cluster. B, the development of cluster B as well, and I was listening to a fascinating interview this morning of a neuroscientist on the diary of CEO with Steven Bartlett. and I didn't like everything she had to say. I was struggling with some of it, but one of the things she said that is that that there's genetics and then there's epigenetics, and epigenetics is sort of the interaction between our wiring and our environment. because there are people out there.

00:07:25:14 - 00:07:44:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I just recently had them on the podcast with Peter Salerno and I was one of them that says this is primarily, I'm thinking cluster B, primarily genetic. And then you'll have other people will say, no, no, no, I think it's trauma based. think it's both. but it is interesting because my thought was why they're co-occurring. This is just me theorizing off the top of my head is that, for example, cluster bees.

00:07:44:09 - 00:08:06:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

A lot of them struggle with novelty seeking. Well, ADHD struggles with TCT. There's impulse control problems. Is cluster B, there's impulse control problems with ADHD. So to me that some of this is just overlapping symptomology that makes it easier to say both is co-occurring, because probably the pathways that control all of that are very similar or maybe in the exact same spot,

00:08:06:07 - 00:08:24:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

but cluster B has to do with the way we relate to each other, whereas ADHD has to do with how, executive functioning issues like how we relate to the world, I see it a little bit differently, but I don't disagree with you. if you look through the DSM and you put all of the different, symptoms of everything, there's so much overlap with everything that it's almost comical, right?

00:08:24:18 - 00:08:46:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Like, well, in fact, if when you're as a psychologist, you have to learn all the differential diagnoses. Yeah. Like for example, let's just take another simple one. That's excess energy. Somebody comes into the room with excess energy. Could be, mania. It could be anxiety, it could be ADHD. It could be that they're on a, some kind of an a substance, what I'm saying? And we you and I could even speculate.

00:08:46:04 - 00:08:53:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Maybe they had a brain injury recently. So there's all these things that you have to literally, like, cross off and rule out as you're sitting with the person.

00:08:53:12 - 00:09:04:18

Sheila Hensen

Yeah. And so, like, the way that I'm, I start to see it, and I try to dabble in, a little bit of neuroscience and a little bit I'm getting into doing a somatic therapy training, and that's helping me understand the nervous system a little bit better.

00:09:04:18 - 00:09:20:13

Sheila Hensen

And it just I feel like ADHD is like this. Well, if I really want to understand ADHD, I have to understand everything that's ever happened. Right. so just understanding even just like parts of the brain and I understand, okay, the frontal lobe are executive functioning. We can see executive functioning can come from trauma. It can come from ADHD, it can come from autism.

00:09:20:13 - 00:09:41:16

Sheila Hensen

It can come through a certain, executive functions specifically. Right? Like flexible thinking for autism and impulsivity for ADHD or whatever. But that's all just it's just that part of the brain. Right? So it could be brain damage, but fetal alcohol spectrum disorder is horrendously ignored. This is a prevalent I'll doctors have been saying for so long, it's okay to have a couple glasses of wine while you're pregnant. Know that

00:09:41:16 - 00:10:02:01

Sheila Hensen

we know now it absolutely is not. so. But no one will call it out as fetal alcohol spectrum. Yeah. Fact I saw your video on that recently and like oh man, are you stepping into hot territory there . I get so...because the more that I look into it the more that I'm like this mirrors ADHD and autism. because I work with so many people that are like, I kind of fit ADHD, I kind of fit autism,

00:10:02:03 - 00:10:17:17

Sheila Hensen

it must be that it's the crossover and they cancel each other out, which does happen. It's not that it doesn't happen, but it also absolutely could be fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. And how would you know? And And everyone thinks, oh well, I don't have the facial features. only like 10% of people have the facial features anyway. So but nobody wants to talk about that, right?

00:10:17:17 - 00:10:19:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That's a dirty little secret. Yeah.

00:10:19:06 - 00:10:35:03

Sheila Hensen

Yeah. And I'm sure that there are also other things that we don't know yet. We have not identified. Absolutely. And so this idea of trying to smash things into boxes, I just find a problem. Right. It's very helpful to okay, if someone tells me I'm autistic, there are certain things I can say.

00:10:35:03 - 00:10:50:18

Sheila Hensen

I could say, well, these medications might be of help to you. These communities might be of help to you. This type of communication might be of help to you. These supports might be of help to you. But I don't know that, I don't know that for sure. And everybody's different. And so the labels are very helpful to an extent.

00:10:50:20 - 00:11:12:15

Sheila Hensen

But once we start talking about what we're talking about, like what are the causes, where is this coming from? Why is this happening? I really feel like we have to come outside of the boxes and look more into neurodiversity and all of the different factors that affect our brains and nervous systems, which can be, it can be trauma, it can be physical trauma, it can be emotional trauma, it can be our genetics, it can be epigenetics.

00:11:12:15 - 00:11:35:13

Sheila Hensen

There is generational trauma is very real. It can be just our experience is not even an, traumatic event, but just living in this, like, toxic colonial culture. If you look at, like, a lot of narcissistic personality disorder issues of like believing that if I'm not on top, then someone else is going to be on top of me and everybody's out to get, like, this is like that is taught through our culture.

00:11:35:13 - 00:11:54:10

Sheila Hensen

We are taught that it's a dog eat dog world, Yeah. What is it? survival of the fittest. like. Of course you're going to have These people who've taken this inside of them, to this extent, when that's what we're told, and that's what works. We see how many, people with narcissistic traits just succeeding in our society. we're rewarding it.

00:11:54:10 - 00:12:13:00

Sheila Hensen

And of course there's a genetic component. it's just it makes no sense to me to try to put anything into tiny little boxes when we don't even fully understand our brains. And nervous systems are so far outside of the understanding of current science that like, yeah, it would just be so the people that talk about it. So certainly I just think it's silly.

00:12:13:05 - 00:12:15:01

Sheila Hensen

I never fully trust those people.

00:12:15:01 - 00:12:35:15

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

To me, that's a warning sign. And that's a really good point that you're making here is a common problem I'm seeing though, and that is ADHD, even autism. Both are things that are not changeable. Yes you can you can adapt your behavior. But the way in which you see the world and you handle your energy and your impulsivity, all these kind of executive functioning issues are just going to be issues.

00:12:35:18 - 00:12:50:11

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But there's a becoming popular for some to say that they're toxic quality. The things that are abusive are no longer abusive because of the condition. So what do you say to that when you see that? Yeah. You're shaking your head. Yeah. When you see that come in as a, problem.

00:12:50:11 - 00:12:54:17

Sheila Hensen

Yeah, I think that I don't care where where it comes from, that you're doing harm.

00:12:54:17 - 00:13:15:12

Sheila Hensen

It's still your responsibility to not do harm. I don't care. My ADHD makes it very difficult for me to be on time. That's going to harm some people. I have some friends, particularly my autistic friends, who are extremely dysregulated by me not being on time. And so we have specific protocols that we use, around, like I give them a half hour window instead of a specific time because that's something I'm capable of.

00:13:15:15 - 00:13:34:03

Sheila Hensen

I know people with ADHD who are not capable of even having that half hour window, and honestly, I almost recommend they move to a different country that has different ideas about time because. But there are places where the time is not. You know, I lived in Brazil. It was much easier there, so that they aren't doing harm to people or, it can be really difficult. And I don't think you should feel bad.

00:13:34:03 - 00:13:50:04

Sheila Hensen

I don't feel bad about who I am because I can't keep like, I have time. Agnosia. That's part of like you said, that's just who I am. I've gotten better, and there are multiple things that help improve some of these things that can be harmful. Like when you say like, oh, we can't change our ADHD and autism.

00:13:50:06 - 00:14:15:22

Sheila Hensen

But what I've seen is through having safety, feeling safe in your body and your mind, rigidity diminishes, time agnosia diminishes. Blurring diminishes, like, these traits that can be harmful, diminish when we feel safe. and it was very interesting going into this like somatic, commute because you go into any like you're going to a different, branch of wellness or whatever, and you get a different view.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:33:22

Sheila Hensen

And they talk about all of these things as dysregulated nervous system. Oh, you if you don't have a dysregulated nervous system, you don't have flexibility. And there are people who will say, well, I'm autistic, so I'll always have trouble with that. And it's like, well, and I have seen that improve in people who feel safe. However, being able to feel safe in our society is such a privilege.

00:14:33:22 - 00:14:51:10

Sheila Hensen

Like, that's just, I mean, to find a therapist supports that actually work for you to have the resources to be able to access those things, to have a living environment, to even just find people who you feel safe around when you are a neurodivergent person. That is a lot of privilege, right? So it's not like, well, just go fix it.

00:14:51:10 - 00:15:08:10

Sheila Hensen

It's it's just not that simple, But there are ways of making it better as, like a side note. But I think that regardless of why you're doing harm to somebody, it's still your responsibility to figure out how to not do harm. And so if if someone tells me, oh, I'm abusive because of my ADHD, then I would say I don't care.

00:15:08:15 - 00:15:27:20

Sheila Hensen

Like like I, I don't care. Like, yeah, you don't need to feel shame is really the a cause of a lot of these harmful behaviors, right? I mean, narcissism is a huge, example of that of like any amount of criticism or the thought that I could be wrong. is too painful. And so I have to be, a god or else, like I can't survive

00:15:27:20 - 00:15:48:16

Sheila Hensen

like that is a shame problem. And we all have a little bit of that and it is very common. there's a ADHDers or more likely to have trouble taking responsibility. And I don't think that that's because we were born like that. I think that's because we were so used to doing things wrong, unintentionally. we're wrong, doing things that people said, this is not how you're supposed to do it.

00:15:48:18 - 00:16:10:04

Sheila Hensen

So we're getting all of these reprimands at a young age, over and over and over again. And the only way to feel safe is to to lie and to lie to ourselves. Because the other option is, well, I might as well just die like. And so the, the only other option we have is like, no, they're all aholes and I have to manipulate them because they're all unreasonable,

00:16:10:07 - 00:16:29:02

Sheila Hensen

And this is a neurodivergent experience. I think, beyond ADHD, just neuro any kind of divergent. If your brain doesn't work the way that people expect, you're going to have some level of this experience, right, of like, well, they're all unreasonable or I'm a useless piece of garbage if you're, a five year old, those are your only options that, you can't go.

00:16:29:05 - 00:16:48:07

Sheila Hensen

Well, I think that my brain, a nervous system, doesn't fit into the society in which I was born. And these expectations, even though my parents are really trying hard, I don't think that this is realistic for me. Like, you don't have that option. And so that's when we start to develop these protective mechanisms. And a lot of those protective mechanisms are manipulate, lie, cheat,

00:16:48:07 - 00:17:11:15

Sheila Hensen

and then if you don't have someone come to you and say at some point get to learn the lesson somehow, have the privilege of having somebody see you and teach you this lesson of like, you don't have to do that. This is what you can do instead, and still be okay. Then yeah, you're going to turn into a person who lies and and, and cheats and, and all of that in order to just get your needs met and feel okay and feel safe.

00:17:11:17 - 00:17:30:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

it's interesting because I didn't know I was neurodivergent until 57, but I knew something was different. I profoundly knew something was really, really different. I there was a, fairy tale about, Swan being born in a duckling family. And I my coping solution was to become as best, fodder possible to really, like, try to figure the rules out as best as they could.

00:17:30:05 - 00:17:49:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Which makes sense. Autism likes patterns, figure out the patterns, and then comply to the patterns as best as I could. But what I sacrificed in that process was my creativity. And certainly aspects of my identity were stifled because I was trying to fit into the system that wasn't working. I definitely felt like I was the square peg trying to fit into a round hole, and it wasn't working really well.

00:17:49:08 - 00:18:08:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But it is interesting what you're proposing. I know I can already hear my audience’s worry, and that is well, if this is just because here's the thing. When you get into a toxic relationship, you're trying to make sense of what's wrong. And you look for all sorts of answers, and you're also trying to fix it so that it goes better, trying to go back to what it was originally in the beginning to what you got presented with.

00:18:08:06 - 00:18:23:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

That got shifted. What you didn't know is that you didn't really meet the real person you met, the person that they thought you wanted to meet so that you'd have this relationship and that you're never going to get back there. And actually, that good person that you met was a manipulation of that person towards you to get you to comply.

00:18:23:01 - 00:18:39:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So what we get stuck on because I was in a toxic relationship and I did this for a really long time, is trying to fix my partner and figuring out, okay, so if it's trauma and by the way, my partner had a lot of if I believe him and I don't know how much is true and not true, but his mom, I met her and she indicated that she was not a good mom.

00:18:39:17 - 00:18:57:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So I believe that some of his stories were true, that he came from a really rough home. So I kept thinking if I could provide a safe enough environment, he would become a better person. No, no, he was not going to become a better person. he had become a person that was just deceptive. The truth to him was optional and actually a privilege.

00:18:57:07 - 00:19:11:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

You should know the truth. The truth was a privilege. So I get worried that people hear this and say, it's going to be my job. And if I'm in a partnership with somebody like this, for them to get better, and if I could be a safer person, then I'll see the better person. And is that what you're saying?

00:19:11:13 - 00:19:14:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I don't you're reacting like, no, that's not what I'm saying.

00:19:14:00 - 00:19:30:12

Sheila Hensen

And as a person who's been in actually a few of those, relationships because another, reaction to living, growing up neurodivergent is learning how to in and people please and how to fix everybody else. And I might have fallen into that, hard and so I definitely have been in

00:19:30:16 - 00:19:56:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. Abusive relationships, one of which was like three years long. And definitely that person had, narcissistic tendencies, and I, I it was very hard for me to get out of either of those relationships because those people did have both of those. Those people had very severe trauma. And I thought, yeah, I could fix them and I could provide safety and I could provide comfort, and there'd would be these little moments where they I would see the these glimmers of them having accountability or apologizing or whatever, and then they would just go back.

00:19:56:09 - 00:20:15:20

Sheila Hensen

Right. And so one thing that I think is really important is I think that every single person is capable of healing and doing better in the right environment, with the right supports in the right universe, right? I can't provide that to any person, and I can't wait around letting them hurt me to like, see if that's going to happen.

00:20:15:20 - 00:20:34:06

Sheila Hensen

If someone's doing me harm. Now, that is enough to leave. And it took me a long time to figure that out. And that is something that I wish I could just shout into. The void is like, even if they have a reason to hurt you, it's still not okay that they're hurting you, right? Even it because I know people and I will get to know them and I will learn.

00:20:34:06 - 00:20:55:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Oh, this is exactly why you're doing this. Your mom did this and this and this and this. That's still it's again, it's still your responsibility. I don't care if it's your ADHD. I don't care if it's your autism. I don't care if it's your trauma. I don't care if it's your genetics. If you're doing me harm and you're not showing me like true accountability and progress toward, you're like, I'm going to therapy every week, every time this happens.

00:20:55:06 - 00:21:11:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I'm seeing this change over time for the, these things, if you're doing me real harm, then I gotta go, like, period, wish you the best. I hope that you go and get healing. But I can't do that. Who do I think I am? and I think that with some of it I thought. I thought I had this power like.

00:21:11:20 - 00:21:25:22

Sheila Hensen

And the thing is, I can work with my clients and I can make progress with them because they're already coming to seek that out. And they're paying me for it. And that is a different situation. And I'm not going to be the only support. They're going to have therapists we talk about their friends and family and how they can incorporate those supports

00:21:25:22 - 00:21:42:20

Sheila Hensen

but I as a romantic partner to someone or a friend to someone, you cannot provide what they need to heal. Period. Like that is not your job. That is not your place. And if they are actively harming you, you are not the person to heal them. If someone is actively harming you, you are not the person to heal them.

00:21:42:22 - 00:22:03:19

Sheila Hensen

They need to go find somebody else. And that's the same thing. If if, I will work with people who are racist or homophobic. I'm white and straight presentation me, so they're not actively harming me so I can do the work to heal them. No one that they're actively harming should be expected to go heal them. just because people can heal, right.

00:22:03:21 - 00:22:30:06

Sheila Hensen

And I just anyone if you are in a relationship and someone is actively harming you and you want them to get healed, they need to go get healed. You're not going to be the one to heal them. That's such a powerful point. I'm really glad you're saying that. I think too many of us see ourselves as both the abused. But the solution and that combination is a very dangerous combination, especially for the psychology of the one being abused, because then You betray yourself over and over again when you do that,

00:22:30:12 - 00:22:50:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

my motto lately has been I need to stop prioritizing connection over personal safety. And that I really need to kind of strongly look at that. I think what we fail to see is our unmet needs are so profound a wanting to belong that we're willing to continue to sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the relationship, thinking somehow they're going to see that as love. And it's going to make them different.

00:22:50:11 - 00:23:08:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

No, it's not until they have their own crisis of whatever type, and some individuals will never that they will never get to that place, then things are not going to change. Yeah. And we have to remember to as someone who is in this position, I'm sorry to say this, but we're also the problem. Like I'm looking for something.

00:23:08:15 - 00:23:25:23

Sheila Hensen

I'm trying to heal myself through healing them. I'm trying to solve my problems solving theirs. I'm avoiding my problems by trying to solve theirs, by staying in this. And now there are situations where you're staying in relationship for your life. That's a different situation because you're trapped. Yeah. You're trapped, for safety, real physical, financial for lots of reasons.

00:23:25:23 - 00:23:40:22

Sheila Hensen

Yeah. But a lot of the reasons we got into those situations and a lot of us that could get out of the situations that aren't, we really have to look at ourselves and say, what am I getting from this? What am I avoiding seeing in myself? What am I avoiding? Healing? and why? Why do I think that I deserve this?

00:23:40:22 - 00:23:59:21

Sheila Hensen

Why am I trying to, like, be a martyr? Like, what is that? why is that happening? And I think, for me, I can trace it back very clearly to childhood trauma. And once that connection was made and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm trying to heal this through saving you. And I'm not magic. It's like, I can't do that.

00:24:00:00 - 00:24:16:06

Sheila Hensen

And so now I'm just. And then we go, oh, well, they're the problem. And it's like, yeah, they're a problem. But we're part of the problem. A relationship takes two people. that's such a hard point. I know a lot of people will hear that it's is victim blaming. But I know that you're exactly right. And I can tell you, Sheila, what was holding me.

00:24:16:10 - 00:24:33:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It was my autism, my difficulty in making relationships to find a home. And somebody solved my problem with interacting with the world. I wasn't lonely, if I had a relationship, I wasn't lonely. So I wanted to hide inside of this relationship. Because I don't know if my story, but I had been widowed a year before I met him, so.

00:24:34:00 - 00:25:03:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And that that other earlier relationship was the first time I'd ever felt I had found home. So I wanted it back. And I was really searching fast and furious to find it. This is done, I could tell you, and I could just man, we could talk for a very long time. We have so many different angles that I know are being left undone, but I'd love to jump over to the podcast extra and talk about how do you tease out when this is just ADHD? That's making life rough, and when is ADHD and a personality disorder, or a personality traits that's making life rough?

00:25:03:08 - 00:25:07:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So we're going to jump over and do that interview next, but tell us how to find you online.

00:25:08:04 - 00:25:24:09

Sheila Hensen

You can find me online on my website SheilaHenson.com. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, as at ADHD Coach Sheila. And, you can find me in Portland, Oregon running around Great. Thank you so much for this, Sheila.

00:25:24:09 - 00:25:25:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

This is really fantastic.

00:25:25:22 - 00:25:29:06

Sheila Hensen

Yeah. Thank you so much. This is great.

00:25:29:08 - 00:25:53:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy Ph.D. Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.