What’s Wrong With Me? Why Abuse Victims Believe They're the Narcissist

This US holiday weekend, let’s revisit three of your favorite podcast episodes. Interestingly, they all have the same theme: why narcissistic abuse survivors initially think they’re the problem.

Clip 1 is from Season 3 Episode 64: "How mad can I make you?" The Toxic Games Covert Narcissists Play”

Video: https://youtu.be/pfU0y1ycgtg

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2150391/episodes/15052505

Clip 2 is from Seoson 3 Episode 57: “Am I The Narcissist? When Toxic People Accuse You of Being The Problem”

Video: https://youtu.be/wwKnai4Gu2M

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2150391/episodes/14715474

Clip 3 is from Season 2, Episode 38: “Here's Why You're Not Spotting a Covert Narcissist…”

Video: https://youtu.be/QaZovKhVoTc

Audio https://www.buzzsprout.com/2150391/episodes/13845831

This week, there’s no podcast extra. 

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

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Transcript

00:00:04:20 - 00:00:35:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

In light of the holidays, I wanted to do something different. I wanted to go back and revisit three of the most popular podcast episodes, and I want to also talk about why I think they hit so powerfully. So first of all, I hope that you're having a wonderful, long weekend and that you're staying very safe as we kick off the summer, but we're going to start this week's episode revisiting a podcast where Lisa and I talk about the passive aggressive games that narcissists often play, and why it makes us feel like there's something wrong, that we're the problem.

00:00:35:10 - 00:00:57:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I know so many of you come to me and ask, am I the narcissist? So in this episode title How Mad Can I Make You? Lisa and I talk about how to know that you're not the problem, what critical questions you should be asking yourself to help you know where the pathology or the toxic dynamics is originating from.

00:00:57:19 - 00:01:18:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So how did you recognize that you were being manipulated? Because it was really hard for me to see it in the beginning because it looks so passive. It looks so innocent. I just don't know. Well, maybe they really don't know, you know. But when you hear it the 50th time on the same issue, it's a simple issue that anybody can go figure out and you're like, oh, you know, maybe this is deliberate.

00:01:18:13 - 00:01:23:04

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So how did you recognize that this was a game that person was playing with you?

00:01:23:09 - 00:01:42:19

Lisa Sonni

I was already out when I realized it. So many things. And I think that's somewhat of a unique position that we had already split up by the time I really realized how purposeful all of this was when I was in it again, I didn't have the language. I didn't know that I don't know the word manipulation, but I had never thought he is manipulating me.

00:01:42:23 - 00:02:01:04

Lisa Sonni

Never. Not once in the entire relationship. I could not understand why he didn't get such basic things that made sense to him at work and in other areas of his life, and he didn't talk that way with anyone else except me. And weirdly, I believed his story, that I was the reason I didn't communicate properly. I didn't ask properly.

00:02:01:06 - 00:02:16:18

Lisa Sonni

And you hear that a lot. I mean, I think in my mind I'm using these examples of weaponized incompetence and sort of pretending like I didn't see the garbage. I didn't know it needed to be taken out. You know what made me know? The garbage needed to be taken out? Talking. We had a lid. You open the lid, you look at your idols.

00:02:16:18 - 00:02:17:13

Lisa Sonni

That would make me.

00:02:17:14 - 00:02:23:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So as you start to smell it. I mean, there was another one too. It gets too long. You you know it. It can't hurt the.

00:02:23:04 - 00:02:42:16

Lisa Sonni

Ways that people know things and that it's like it's so basic. But it used to make me frustrated and I have an insanely sarcastic streak. So I would, I would say really like angry, resentful, sarcastic things, which certainly didn't help the situation, obviously, but it would infuriate me that I had to have these arguments, but I never saw it as manipulation.

00:02:42:22 - 00:03:05:01

Lisa Sonni

So when I saw it, I was out and we were still communicating in that 9 or 10 month after the relationship, after we split, we were still, you know, situationship, whatever you want to call it. And it was in that time that I started to be like, wait a minute, this isn't making sense. This, it seems to know, how could something be so obvious to him in one area of his life?

00:03:05:01 - 00:03:27:07

Lisa Sonni

And the literal same example, but just in our house suddenly becomes different. I started to realize, like, could this be on purpose? And once I realized it was, I could never see it any other way. And that's why one of the biggest things people hear me say is they already know we waste so much time trying to convince them, you know, like you don't see that this is passive aggressive.

00:03:27:11 - 00:03:31:05

Lisa Sonni

You don't see that this is where the racing happens. You don't see, they see, they see.

00:03:31:09 - 00:03:48:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. This is how I knew mine started using a really ridiculous example. He knew I was sleeping a lot and he had access to his Google account, which meant that I could see what images he's even downloading. If you go look at the browser history and I saw he was downloading like these little images of I miss you, I love you that he's not sending to me.

00:03:48:01 - 00:04:04:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

He's obviously downloading them to text to somebody else. So I mentioned it to him, which dumb me. I should just have used it as I need to leave. This relationship is really, really over. But I actually said something to him. He goes, I don't know, Kerry. You know way more about technology than I do. That there was such a ridiculous statement.

00:04:04:21 - 00:04:20:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I just I just remember looking at it like, oh, okay. And then moving on, like, you know what? I'm just not I'm not engaging in this. This is going to go nowhere. But there's something and I would love to use this as a self-help tip today. There is something you said that I thought was super powerful, and it was the way it made you feel.

00:04:20:19 - 00:04:35:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I think that's a really powerful indicator that other people can use as an identifier that this is a passive aggressive. So let's get into what is passive aggressive behavior, make the victim feel like and I heard for you it made you feel crazy.

00:04:35:20 - 00:04:58:09

Lisa Sonni

Crazy, resentful, confused, full of rage. It honestly incites rage in me to this day. When I deal with people who are passive aggressive, I cannot stand it. It is such a like I get, I get heated. Even thinking about people being passive aggressive, I value honest and open communication and I am that kind of communicator. I always have been.

00:04:58:09 - 00:05:22:15

Lisa Sonni

And I think when I look back, I realize that I started to become I don't say passive aggressive, although certainly I can dish that if I choose to, but I know that I'm doing it and it's always in response to that. But if you find yourself feeling crazy, angry and resentful, or you start to become passive aggressive, maybe we could call it mirroring, but also you're just picking up these traits.

00:05:22:15 - 00:05:44:00

Lisa Sonni

You're sort of like, oh yeah, you learn passive aggressive, the dynamic passive aggressive too. If you feel that that's a huge indicator that something is wrong in the relationship, there's a communication breakdown. And I'm all for to a degree, you know, trying to call out to be a. I think we all need to go through that process and say you're being passive aggressive and this is what it is and seeing what their reaction is.

00:05:44:00 - 00:05:56:06

Lisa Sonni

If they're like, no, I'm not. I just immediate denial about the problem. If they're like, what is that? Let me consider it. At least it's a better sign. But you're not going to see that in a narcissistic relationship. You'll see this action in denial.

00:05:56:09 - 00:06:18:06

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Exactly. I know for me the my reaction was one of I felt just like I couldn't make a move, that everything was wrong, that everything I did said was wrong, and that I started to feel paralyzed. I often we just shut down and I find myself having an extreme like rage reaction as well, but not rage at anybody, but just rage that I was felt so helpless.

00:06:18:06 - 00:06:38:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I felt really helpless. And this is a powerful thing. I think people haven't learned to use how they feel as an indication of what's happening to them, but it's a really powerful indicator because feelings are really actually just like a warning device on your dashboard of your car. It tells you something's going wrong. So when you feel sad, then it means something's upsetting you.

00:06:38:23 - 00:06:59:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And if you're feeling angry, then that means you're feeling a loss of control. You're feeling hurt or attacked. I mean, if you're feeling anxious, you feel like pie filling out of scared or out of control, like something bad might happen. So feelings indicate something. So I think that when we start to feel a consistent way, it's really wise for us to say what's happening, which is tough because then it tells you that something's going wrong.

00:06:59:11 - 00:07:19:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So then you can say, what do I want to do about this? What are my choices now? What I found is that, like that example of him saying, well, you know better, Carrie, you're you know, more about technology. I just like you know what? I'm just not stepping into this. This is just not worth it. So the indication of frustration, me being frustrated with stupid responses that I just thought, okay, I'm not I'm not biting.

00:07:19:16 - 00:07:21:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I'm not getting into this with this person.

00:07:21:12 - 00:07:39:23

Lisa Sonni

Who's known for choosing not to get into it. Is also you sort of shutting down or might have been perceived as acceptance, but I know that it isn't. That's how they would see it, certainly. I mean, really, you're talking about trusting instincts and I, I know how hard that is, and so do you when you're actually in the relationship because you don't trust your own instincts.

00:07:40:00 - 00:07:50:19

Lisa Sonni

You think if it is the way that I'm communicating, maybe I did start this argument, maybe it was me. Maybe I am the problem because they're so good at convincing you of that, or so good at that game of slipping it onto you.

00:07:50:23 - 00:08:06:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Which is why I think the fact that you went out and talked to other people. I don't know if you said that in this podcast episode or the other one, but you're getting feedback is really a wise thing because you're validating. Is this upsetting? What would you do if this happened to you? And when you got that puzzled look like, I don't know, no.

00:08:06:20 - 00:08:14:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Why is that happening that way? Then you knew you weren't the variable. You knew that this dynamic was the issue not resolved like that.

00:08:14:02 - 00:08:29:04

Lisa Sonni

That's helped me in a huge way, more than I think I even realize. And it helped me maintain somewhat of a sense of self. But there was always, you hear a victim say all the time that, you know, I thought I was the narcissist. I never thought that I didn't know anything about narcissism the entire time I was in the relationship.

00:08:29:04 - 00:08:47:17

Lisa Sonni

So I wasn't using that language, but I was never committed to the idea that I was the problem. I definitely wondered if I was contributing. I was I couldn't understand how I could be so wrong, because I felt right in so many arguments that we had not, you know, like I win the argument kind of way, but just I was like, it can't be me.

00:08:47:19 - 00:09:11:04

Lisa Sonni

I it can't be. Too many people around me. Agreed. But most of the time you don't see that, that things are not asking people around them. But it is very validating to realize that 8 to 10 people who I trust, some of whom would absolutely say to me, actually, yeah, you were definitely wrong. I'm not talking about some girl group who just blindly follows me, but true friends who would say, no, you started it at that time.

00:09:11:04 - 00:09:16:12

Lisa Sonni

Or you think they were like, no, that's this is him 100%.

00:09:16:14 - 00:09:45:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

In this next clip, which is from episode 57 with Rosanna Faye, we get into why we feel like we're the abusive one, why we sometimes wonder where the narcissist and how we can pick up what some people call psychological or narcissistic flees because we begin to use their same tactics against them, hoping that somehow this is going to change the dynamic, but it only ends up making us feel worse in the process.

00:09:45:16 - 00:10:05:05

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Near the end of that relationship, I was feeling so crazy, so confused, and really hurt actually. And there was a moment I remember where my ex actually accused me. He was my husband at that time, but he accused me of being the problem and I'll never forget it, because we were in a car driving and I just been hoovered back into the relationship again.

00:10:05:08 - 00:10:21:20

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I had known that during this brief month period that we were apart, that he had been seeing other women, and particularly he had a girlfriend, and he flew her into town and they even looked at houses. They shopped houses that that weekend. I remember looking at him and was horrified that he would do that while we're just in a break.

00:10:21:20 - 00:10:36:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We weren't even divorced. We were just taking a break and he was still stealing. He was stopping by to have breakfast with me. I think more to check up on me during that period, but he was still like trying to stay in touch with me. But yet he would do all of this. And I remember confronting him about how horrible that was, how hurtful that was.

00:10:36:13 - 00:11:03:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And he looked at me and he said, Gary, you're going to have to decide whether or not you can live with the sex addict, essentially making the problem me, that my inability to accept him and accept the situation that was causing all of the issues. Now, that's not as dramatic as I know. I hear all the time from people who get a hold of me, from clients, from guests, from commenters on social media that share about the fact that they actually have a partner, that even takes it further, that accuses them of being the problem.

00:11:03:18 - 00:11:29:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

The whole reason the relationship's going wrong is because of their difficulties, their wanting too much, them being too sensitive, or they're having maybe some kind of mental health issues or interpersonal issues. But essentially the toxic person flips the script and makes the victim the survivor, the problem. And it is utterly crazy thinking, because it becomes really tricky to know who is the problem, because I don't know if you did, but I started to react to the abuse.

00:11:30:02 - 00:11:32:02

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Was that something that you started to do as well?

00:11:32:06 - 00:11:53:23

Rosanna Fae

Well, yeah. I mean, reacting is kind of a survival technique, right? We have to in order to survive. It's like, you know, we just want to stop what's going on and to protect ourselves, to survive. We just do something out of character, out of our own integrity, out of our normal behavior, and do something that we just normally wouldn't do to stop the abuse or stop the attack.

00:11:53:23 - 00:12:09:07

Rosanna Fae

So just thinking about what you said you're going to have to deal with in Sex Addict, you know, you're going to have to make the decision. He puts it on you. And that's what one of the things they do is they put it on us so that they don't have to take that accountability and responsibility for their own actions.

00:12:09:07 - 00:12:28:05

Rosanna Fae

One of the things my ex would do is he would say, well, you married an alcoholic. You know that I have a problem. You know that I'm an alcoholic and I do this. And so you knew this walking into this relationship. You knew this before you married me. So now I'm the problem because I knew this and I chose to marry.

00:12:28:10 - 00:12:50:10

Rosanna Fae

I chose to be in these situations. So when he would rage at me or yell at me, or take my mood from calm and cool and collected on the couch, and then start a fight with me. Because looking back in hindsight, I think he was probably upset about something or something happened to him at work and he didn't really know how to hold that emotion or try to even just identify it as anger or frustration or whatnot.

00:12:50:10 - 00:13:10:01

Rosanna Fae

So he placed it on me, and when I got angry and frustrated, she was, oh, I don't have to feel my own emotion. So now ro gets to feel it. And so now I'm the one that's getting mad and angry because he's picked and poked and prodded on me when I'm just like, laying on the couch. He's asking me if I'm in a bad mood and then out of a reaction.

00:13:10:01 - 00:13:26:08

Rosanna Fae

So this is the reactive abuse. I come back and I do things that I character like. I yell back, I rage back, and I start to mirror him in his how he's behaved in the past. And then I ask, like, am I an angry person? Does that mean that's where I get to that point where I felt like I was the problem?

00:13:26:08 - 00:13:34:02

Rosanna Fae

Because I don't normally act out like this, but I'm starting to like mirror some of his behaviors. And that's where I would ask, am I the problem?

00:13:34:06 - 00:13:43:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Do you know why you mirrored them? Because I know why I did. I'd love to hear. Did it just you get to the end of yourself and you just get frustrated or react? Or was was there other reasons why.

00:13:43:06 - 00:14:04:17

Rosanna Fae

There was more? So I'm thinking about this. Let's see how I can articulate this, because I'd love to hear what you think. But I think looking back and I did not know this then in the marriage, but I think looking back, I was really observant of how he behaved and what worked for him. And it seemed to me that if he raged and got what he wanted, he did get what he wanted.

00:14:04:17 - 00:14:29:12

Rosanna Fae

That was his supply, was letting out that anger and and then blaming it on either alcohol or me somehow that I was the one that changed his mood or I'm putting him in a bad mood. I frustrated, but it worked for him to rage out and I would notice that and observe that and go, okay, well, if that works for him and he has this episode of Acting out, then I do it and maybe I'll feel better because he seems to feel better after he does it.

00:14:29:18 - 00:14:51:17

Rosanna Fae

So I try it, but the difference is he feels better when he does it. Me, I feel worse because it's not in alignment with who I am. Like I don't just get angry like that. I don't rage out. I don't, you know, there's one time I threw a plate at him that's not something I do. But when you when you poke a bear and you, you or pull a dog's tail, they're going to turn around and try to bite you back.

00:14:51:17 - 00:15:06:13

Rosanna Fae

And it's not something they would normally do. But that's something I did. And I think it's because I watched him do it in the past. And I thought, well, that works for him. He seems to be calm after he does this episode, so let me try an episode to stop him from yelling at me and screaming at me.

00:15:06:14 - 00:15:11:18

Rosanna Fae

He gets calm and I'm agitated, so that's the difference. It really didn't work for me.

00:15:11:18 - 00:15:34:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah. That's interesting. I never saw it as a successful effort to deal with the difficult emotions that never was. What? Something that crossed my mind. But I thought that somehow if I modeled the negative behavior almost like a parent, if I treat you poorly in the way that you're treating me, or at least maybe I can increase your cognitive empathy, maybe I can make you more aware of how crappy that feels.

00:15:34:03 - 00:15:42:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And so you're like, oh, you'll get a clue. Oh, that's bad. I shouldn't be doing that. I need to stop doing that. So. So my was sort of like to teach him a lesson.

00:15:42:14 - 00:15:43:20

Rosanna Fae

Oh man. No.

00:15:43:23 - 00:15:58:10

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Yeah, yeah. But it didn't work because I think all it did was it degraded that created the situation or maybe even degraded the conversation. So he was crappy to me and I was crappy back at him. He just got crappier to me. So I didn't really like, do what I wanted it to do.

00:15:58:14 - 00:16:03:12

Rosanna Fae

But it just increased the crappiness to each other.

00:16:03:14 - 00:16:32:23

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

We're going to wrap up today's special with a clip from episode 38, where I interviewed Tara Blair Paul about covert narcissism, and we discuss why it's so tough to recognize this group, how they don't present like the grandiose or entitled narcissism, but they use their position as a martyr or a victim and elicit your empathy and sympathy, which makes it extremely difficult to spot.

00:16:33:01 - 00:17:10:01

Tara Blair Ball

My experience with my ex was actually a covert narcissist, and I think for me, as someone who had some knowledge of narcissism, not a lot, but some knowledge, I found it the most difficult to label him as such because it is not as obvious as a malignant narcissist. Absolutely not. It's just that grandiosity is very private. You know, my ex, for example, would say a lot that he imagined he'd be walking down the street and get discovered and, you know, be in movies and TV because he was discovered.

00:17:10:03 - 00:17:28:19

Tara Blair Ball

But that was private. That was only shared with me. And so that sense that the grandiosity, all of the other traits of a narcissist, he absolutely have. But it was so much more quiet, and it was only shared in the relationship with me. And because it was only shared with the relationship with me, I didn't connect that dot.

00:17:28:19 - 00:17:49:03

Tara Blair Ball

Connecting it to the fact that it was actually narcissism and these were narcissistic traits. I was only connecting out of his sort of private or secret dreams. You know, it just it was sort of easy to excuse or minimize like, oh, you know, like we all have dreams like that, right? But honestly, I've never had that dream. I've never wanted to be famous or be a celebrity.

00:17:49:03 - 00:17:52:00

Tara Blair Ball

Like, that's never been a dream of mine. And I've never.

00:17:52:02 - 00:17:54:01

Lisa Sonni

Really thought a lot about.

00:17:54:02 - 00:17:59:13

Tara Blair Ball

Feeling superior to other people. And that's not that's not a dream or goal of mine.

00:17:59:15 - 00:18:20:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It's funny because I have to say, I probably a little higher on the narcissistic scale than you are, because I have thought about some of that. But yeah, I didn't, you know, in the middle of that friendship and this was a friendship, and I have since then met a few men that I maybe was getting to know, thinking about dating that I now would say was covert, but it was a friendship that this happened in.

00:18:20:13 - 00:18:41:14

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And in the middle of that relationship. I never once thought, thought to myself, this person's narcissistic never even crossed my mind because like you said, that wasn't what this individual led with. This person led with something that was really amazing and thoughtful and seems sensitive. This is a person who serves and shows up for other seemingly shows up for other people, and has been in a helping career most of this individual's life.

00:18:41:14 - 00:19:05:07

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So it never crossed my mind. And I think that's that's what tricks a lot of people in about covert narcissism is that it's very difficult to spot doesn't present as the grandiose braggart who is the life of the party. They're not people necessarily is name dropping in everywhere. They really they can be super subtle. And one of the ways in which so so that let's start with defining it, because I think that's essentially to understand what it is.

00:19:05:10 - 00:19:29:12

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Covert narcissism has all the same traits as other types of narcissist, but it presents almost as an inverse to the grandiose narcissist in the sense that instead of looking for the limelight of how great I am and how special their specialness is usually in their martyrdom, you know, in showing up and serving people in the degree that they sacrifice for other people or in the victim role.

00:19:29:14 - 00:19:48:13

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

So they're either the biggest victim or they're the biggest martyr. And those two actually are quite different, because the martyr doesn't necessarily isn't the victim, they're just the people who are doing. You could even say they're the perfect people pleaser. They're doing everything for everybody. And then they think they should be appreciated. They think they're special and have the ability to really show up.

00:19:48:13 - 00:20:16:18

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And they don't know why people then don't see it and appreciate it. And you're more likely hear all of that, the negativity about the attention they deserve to get. And they often don't get or they deserve to get, and then they do get it. Here's an example of how it happened in this relationship. This friend was really showing up in an amazing way during my late husband's battle with cancer, during all of his hospital stays and his treatments and stuff, and she'd been talking to other people about it, particularly at a at a religious organization that we were both associated with.

00:20:16:23 - 00:20:37:16

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And they decided they wanted to do a spotlight on the situation. And you would think they would spotlight my husband's battle with his cancer struggle as well as maybe what was like for me in the family. What they spotlighted was the way she was the perfect friend for me. So here they did this thing that they then presented at church about how great her service was.

00:20:37:19 - 00:20:57:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And, and, and at the time, it felt so jarring because my life had been consumed with the care of my late husband, and she had really no insight into what it was like on a day to day basis for me, what it and what my family was suffering and the loss we were about ready to experience. And she's getting all the glory for this.

00:20:57:02 - 00:21:16:08

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

While I'm about ready to go through the most one of the most devastating experiences in my life, and if anybody who'd been like, laying themselves out was certainly with me and my family. Yeah, she was there some times, but she couldn't be there all the time. She wasn't there for the really horrible, hard things that I was keeping kind of private, because those are things that you just don't let other people in.

00:21:16:08 - 00:21:40:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

It's too personal. And it's it's my husband's battle. It's his, his experience that nobody deserves to be in that space other than being him. So that that was a to me, that was a great example. Is that that that was her supply. You want to think of that way? Her supply was the attention she was getting. In fact, when I was thinking of leaving the area after I was widowed, she said, after all I done for you is one of the things she loved to repeat.

00:21:40:21 - 00:21:59:17

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

I can't believe you do this to me. After all the things I've done for you, I'm thinking, what do you mean? I never asked you to do any of that. I thought that was a gift to me, not an obligation. So you'll notice that you'll notice that things are transactional. Just like they're transactional with the more grandiose or more overt narcissist, which is the biggest victim or the biggest martyr.

00:21:59:17 - 00:22:23:21

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

But they have all the other things, you know, the very Ms.. They're very controlling. They but the other big difference between them is the other types of narcissist tend to be overtly aggressive. This group tends to be really passive aggressive. But even that statement, after all I've done for you, so they'll tend to like get you on the back side, like withhold things or threaten to pull the relationship back if you don't quite show up.

00:22:23:21 - 00:22:46:03

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Right. But they critique you, their defensive, all the things that you typically expect to see, you see. But what really made it hard for me to spot this individual was, and this is the thing I hear a lot, is that they seem highly empathic. And in fact, I think sometimes people and I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but when people start to brag that they're a super empath, I get a little edgy because everybody is special in their own right.

00:22:46:03 - 00:23:09:01

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

There's nobody like who has superpowers. So when I start to hear somebody like elevate themselves like that, I get a little uncomfortable not to say there's anything wrong with it, but but this group, I think the covert narcissist would say they're highly empathic. She would say she's super sensitive. She showed up for me. She sacrificed for me. So so you can see all of that and you think, oh, this is a person who is reciprocal in their compassion.

00:23:09:01 - 00:23:22:09

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Oh no no no no, it's it's it's not, it's it looks like it, but it's not. And there's one of the other ways we get super tripped up on this.

00:23:22:11 - 00:23:44:19

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Thank you so much for joining me on this special episode, revisiting some of the best podcast with the interesting discussions. I hope you found it enlightening as we focused on why it's so troubling and difficult to spot toxic relationships. And I'd really love to hear from you. Like what tricked you? What blinded you to the fact that you were in a pathological love relationship?

00:23:44:22 - 00:24:08:00

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

And I sure hope you'll join me next week when I interview Catherine Fabrizio about her new book, The Good Daughter Syndrome. When we really hone in on the toxic dynamics between mothers and daughters. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? You can find me at Carrie McEvoy PhD.

00:24:08:02 - 00:24:22:22

Dr. Kerry McAvoy

Or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at Carrie mcevoy.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five star review and I'll see you back here next week.