Dr. Les Carter on the #1 Sign Someone Lacks Emotional Maturity in Conflict

What’s the single biggest giveaway that someone lacks emotional maturity — especially when the pressure’s on?

In this episode, Dr. Les Carter, psychologist, best-selling author, and expert on narcissism and emotional health, reveals the #1 sign of low emotional maturity during conflict. We dive into how this pattern plays out in everyday disagreements, why it derails problem-solving, and what you can do to protect your own emotional space when dealing with it.

You’ll learn:

• The clearest sign of emotional immaturity — and why it instantly escalates tension 
• How emotionally immature people use defensiveness and blame-shifting to avoid responsibility
• Why maturity is measured less by age or intelligence and more by emotional steadiness
• Practical strategies to keep your composure and avoid getting pulled into reactive cycles

Whether you’re navigating conflict with a partner, family member, or coworker, this conversation will help you spot the signs early and respond in a way that keeps you grounded and in control.

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More About the Podcast Extra Interview
🔹 Ever wish you could walk away from a heated argument without feeling guilty—or second-guessing yourself? 

In this exclusive bonus conversation, Dr. Les Carter shares his best strategies for stepping out of circular or controlling exchanges before they drain you.

You’ll learn how to recognize the exact moment a discussion turns unproductive, spot the subtle tactics that keep you stuck, and drop the urge to “win” in favor of preserving your peace.

Get immediate access to this extended interview—and start building the clarity, confidence, and self-trust you deserve.

👉 Gain access today! 

More About Dr. Carter
Books:

• The Anger Trap: Free Yourself from the Frustrations that Sabotage Your Life
• The Anger Workbook: An Interactive Guide to Anger Management
• Imperative People - Those Who Must Be in Control

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Hey, it feels really good to be back. I have missed the space, and more importantly, I've missed you. Over the summer months, I have really felt your support as I took the time to pause and recalibrate while I was focusing on my healing, so thank you for that. This show exists because of you and because you keep showing up and you keep sharing it, and you keep asking the hard questions about healing and what freedom really looks like, and so yes.

We're back. The podcast is back, and this fall, the lineup is incredible. We've got some returning favorites like Dr. Nadine Macaluso, Dr. Peter Salerno, Dr. Robin Stern and Eleni Sagredos . Many of the names that you have told me that have made a huge impact on you, and we're also welcoming some brilliant new voices, including Dr. Leslie Dobson. Dr. Josh Coleman and Judge Michele Locke, who's bringing an episode on an insider's view of what really happens in court when you're battling a narcissist, and I'm trying something new this season. Something I think you're gonna really love. Every Thursday, I'll be answering one of your questions in a brand new segment called fan mail.

It can be something personal. Maybe it's a question that you've had in your mind that you've been wondering about, maybe that you've never heard anyone talk about before. But I would love to feature your biggest question. Just click on send me a text in the show notes, or email me at hello@kerrymcavoyphd.com with fan mail question in the subject line.

And I will answer your question on air anonymously if you'd like. And we're kicking things off this week. So go ahead and send me your biggest question 'cause I'd love to hear what's been on your mind and your heart. And now let's start this new fall series with a huge fan favorite Dr. Les Carter.

Dr. Carter, it's always an extreme pleasure to have you back on today. Thank you so much for being one of our regular guests. 

Dr. Les Carter: Well, Dr. McAvoy, I'm so glad to be here with you.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes, thank you.

Dr. Les Carter: We've done this a few times now, so I, we have, I always like talking to you. You know, if you've ever been on the receiving end of an interview, like I have a whole bunch of times, you learn to appreciate the ones who know how to ask the right questions and how to have the right kind of conversations. And the ones who don't have a clue, you've got a clue. So I always enjoyed talking with you. You're a dear person and I so appreciate your work. So thanks for having me. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, thank you so much. You become our annual summer event, so thank you for being here.

I wanna really hone in today on antagonism, specifically dealing with conflict, because that is an issue that usually we start to see that there's a big problem between couples or between any type of relationship is when we hit a conflict. So what do you think goes wrong around conflict from a maybe grand map level of the view of this?

Dr. Les Carter: Well, oh, okay. You're just jumping right into a really large, thing that I talk to people about, and that is you can tell most accurately about a person's emotional maturity by watching how they manage conflict. It's really easy for me to get along well with someone when they are doing everything the way I want or when they agree with me or they give me compliments.

I mean, anybody can be a nice then, but it's when we just are not on the same page or when we're not thinking differently or disappointments come along or unexpected, tension show up. That's when you're gonna find out how mature a person is. And when you ask what's going on that causes conflict to rear its ugly head in a bad kind of way, this is where your insecurities can start showing up.

If you and I have a conflict, and if I'm confident in me, and I'm confident in my ability to reason well with you, then I don't need to raise my voice. I don't need to be a game player. I don't need to be coy or defensive or evasive. We can just talk. And that's what healthy people do. And I know the people in our audience right now, they're thinking, well, I haven't had a whole lot of those kind of conversations when I'm in conflict.

'cause that's when the unhealthy stuff shows up.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Dr. Les Carter: And it's like, yeah. What we're doing is we're saying let's go ahead and take a real good look at what you're carrying around. 'Cause it's in this moment where we're gonna see exactly what you're made of. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I'm almost seeing it, is, it differentiates people who are very relationship focused versus people who are very self-protective focused.

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Is how kind of, I almost, I put it in those types of camps, is that you're saying you're seeing the same.

Dr. Les Carter: Oh yeah. One, you know, of course, and I specialize with the whole topic of narcissism, and when I talk about narcissism, there are a whole lot of different ways to look at that. But one of the ways that I describe it is it's the dark side of the human condition.

Every one of us on the inside has our moments where we look back and think, I shouldn't have done this well, or I didn't do that very well. I should have been a better, or, I've got my insecurities, or I have my question marks about whether people are going to accept me or not. And healthy people can say okay, I know that stuff is on the inside of me, and I know that I have a propensity sometimes to be selfish or overbearing or controlling, and I need to make sure that I contain that. And so they have self-awareness, they have honesty with themselves first before they can put it out there with other individuals.

And they do something of a healthy nature and they know that there are much healthier alternatives. The narcissistic unhealthy individual doesn't do that. They carry so much strain and tension on the inside. We refer to that as they have their false self. They've got all this tension on the inside, but it's like, I don't wanna expose that.

I don't want people to know that I have a whole lot more ugly stuff going on inside of me than I care to share. And so now it is so common for individuals in their moments of disagreement to put, like you just said, to put up those barriers of self-protection. And in doing so, a lot of ugly things can follow after that because typically with the self-protection that you're referring to comes an awful lot of self dishonesty.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, yeah. 

Dr. Les Carter: I don't want to get into the real stuff, honest. I just want to, protect my image and my image may not necessarily be consistent with what's really going on inside. Or with what other people are picking up is going on inside of me. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I tend to notice, and I wonder if you think it's true as well, is that the person who's defensive assumes the other person's defensive as well, and the person who's working for the best interest of the relationship thinks the other person's trying to do that as well.

And there becomes the like almost the major problem is we're assuming wrong motives or positioning of the opposite person. Do you follow what I'm saying?

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah. 

There's an element of projection going on. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Les Carter: I mean, real strong, particularly when, if I'm defensive. Yeah, you probably are too.

And yeah. many individuals, whether they realize it or not, carry a great deal of pessimism around. and I do think, and this sounds a little strange, but I do think we need to have a little pessimism. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, what do you mean? Can you say more what you mean by that? 

Dr. Les Carter: Well, I live in a broken world, just as you do.

And there are times when I'm gonna encounter people that don't have their act together. And sometimes I'm having a bad day and maybe I don't have my act together. And so when we lead with a certain amount of pessimism, what I'm saying is. You know, let's factor in that if somebody's not having a good day, we don't need to turn it into a big, huge issue.

Sometimes we just need to say, yeah, this isn't going well, and let's see that we can just kind of get through it with the least amount of damage possible. Or let's suppose that you have an individual in your past or in your present who's very harsh and mean and abusive. The pessimism in me says, yeah, and my next conversation with that person about our differences probably isn't gonna go well.

I need to factor that in. I mean, we just need to understand there's a certain amount of pessimism that is out there that will show up within myself, within other individuals, and I need to brace myself for what that might lead to. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I felt like when I was in that bad relationship though, that I never really got there.

I kind of continued to live in the optimism, which was almost to my downfall and I wonder if you see that as well, is that people continue to persist that this worldview is true. Like if they just understood better, then we'd do better. Or I know that they just had a bad day, and if I talk to them on a different day, I'm gonna get a different, they, you know, I know it's the definition of insanity according to Einstein.

But we have this mindset that it's just somehow they, It's the way we're communicating. We're meeting a person who's not intended to work it through with us. 

Dr. Les Carter: Kerry, I'm gonna make a real easy guess and say that on the Myers-Briggs, You're the intuitive, you know. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Les Carter: Okay. So am I. Yeah.

Intuitives love to ask the why questions.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah,, I do.

Dr. Les Carter: And it's like, well, let's dig into that. And let's figure this out. Now, if you say that to me, or if you say that to yourself, it's like, oh, good, we're going to get somewhere. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. Which is why you and I are having this conversation. 'cause we love to do this type of thing.

Dr. Les Carter: Well, exactly. And which is why you and I each went into the professions that we did.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Dr. Les Carter: Because it's like, no, I want to, and I, no apologies. It's like, well, I think that's the better way to be. Yeah. As opposed to, I don't wanna think so If you're an intuitive. and by the way, that percentage wise, it's roughly about 26, 27% of the population are intuitive, so it's not real high.

But if you're an intuitive, your natural inclination would be to say, well, I know that if we manage that aspect of communication well, good things can happen. And so I'm willing to do so and then we can make the fatal mistake. Surely you would like to do the same in reverse toward me. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. 

Dr. Les Carter: And there's so many, people that they, if they, sense that you're trying to draw them into insight and you know there, along with that, there's a certain amount of, acknowledgement or admission of who you are and what your pluses and minuses are.

As soon as they sense that's what you're trying to do, it's like, I don't do that. Because we go back to what you said just a couple of minutes ago, and that is there's so many people that have their protective barriers up. It's like, you're asking me to do something that, A, I've got way too much to hide.

B, I'm ashamed of who I am. C, I'm giving up my power if I started acknowledging my problems. And so they just go straight in the overpowering method toward you and therein lies the problem and it's just a formula for conflict disaster. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. I can almost hear the audience though, saying, okay, so if 25, 26% of the population's intuitive, what's the other 75% like?

And then how does that shape the way that they deal with conflict. 

Dr. Les Carter: Well, the opposite of the intuitive is the, we call it the sensory. if I can touch it, feel it, measure it, I'm okay. In other words, black and white, measurable. 

So for example, if I'm trying to intuitively discuss something with another person, I might say something like, I know that I'm thinking on a different plane than you are.

So I wanna know a little bit more what caused you to feel the way you do, and, let's see if we can figure out how that's gonna match up with where I am. And so you want to just say, let's coordinate the sensory person. It's like, all I know is, you're an idiot, or, all I know is I don't like that tone of voice.

Or something like that, and it's like, no, what I'm asking is, let's pull our mask off and let's just talk. And that other person, it's like, okay, you've touched on my fears. I fear vulnerability. I fear looking foolish. I fear seeming to be weak. I fear letting folks know, you know, what my pain is.

All of that's, I don't know what to do with, I fear rejection. And so they have all of these hidden fears, and if I were to go in and say, well, I can tell you're feeling like I might reject you, and it's like, no, I'm not. There you are. And so you, that's why I go back to the beginning, conflict, it just has a way of bringing out all sorts of pathology from other individuals. And it's like, all I'm wanting to do is just talk about something between you and me, and there's just a whole lot of people that cannot, for the love of life, they just can't do it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. So when you get into middle of something like that and you see it going south, what should someone do?

Say that you really would like to have resolution. Maybe it's becoming clear, resolution's not gonna actually happen. Maybe that's part of it is realizing resolution's not gonna happen here, but what do you recommend when you start to see that it's just getting nasty? 

Dr. Les Carter: Kerry, years ago I wrote a, an article before I had my YouTube.

I had a mailing list where I'd send out articles every week. And one of 'em was entitled, high Awareness comes with a Price. And when you have a situation where, you know, you've got these people that are at loggerheads and we're thinking, well, which one of you is going to take the initiative to try to bring some sort of reasonableness to this?

Well, you've got somebody with high awareness and somebody with low awareness. Well, by default, that person with low awareness isn't gonna be the one that's gonna bring any kinda healthiness to it. Yeah. And so if you're a high aware kinda person, it's like, well, I guess it's gonna be on me to try to at least take this to a place where it's not so ugly.

And I've had so many people say, well, I don't want to have to be that person. 'cause it's almost like it's its own curse. It's like, okay, well then let a person with low awareness take charge then. Well, I don't want that either.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes, I say, see how well that goes when you do that? 

Dr. Les Carter: So there comes a point where the person who has that stronger self-awareness and that willingness to go into a healthy space, that person's gonna need to be the one that says, I'm gonna do what I can to maintain my sanity and to maintain my, wellbeing and reasonableness. And, and if the other person cannot or chooses not to coordinate with me, then I'm gonna need to figure out how we can land this plane and, I'm gonna get off the tarmac and go somewhere else.

But you kinda have to take it on yourself knowing then that you're probably gonna have some serious loose ends in the kind of conflict that's there.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, that was what struck me is that what you're saying, and this is really the hard, heavy part, is that you're going to have to be okay with the fact that there's not good resolution and that you're left in a not great emotional space when this conversation's over. They probably are gonna be licking some wounds because defensive people tend to be very good at being offensive 

Dr. Les Carter: That the best defense is a good offense. 

There's a very simple truth that most of us, we acknowledge it, but we don't want to. And that is pain exists.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Les Carter: And when I say pain, I'm not talking about just slashing your arm, I'm talking about psychological pain. Let's say it's somebody that you have chosen to give your devotion to, and, you want to be a really good partner with somebody and that person turns out to be a baldfaced liar, or you're dealing with, people inside a family or friendships or work.

And you think, okay, I wanna manage my anger well. And so I wanna main, understand the difference between aggressive and assertive anger. I'm gonna choose the assertive without having to go into the aggressive. That's what I'm gonna be. And others in the room will say, well, fine with me, but I'm gonna do the other.

and they don't wanna work with you. And you wind up having this agony and this pain and this tension and this frustration, and the question that you can ask in that moment is, well, how do I make this go away? I don't wanna feel pain. And the answer is, well, then I don't mean to be too facetious, but die.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh yeah. I was say, I was, my thought was

Dr. Les Carter: that's the only time you're gonna stop having pain. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Or live on an island. I was thinking of Castaway like Tom Hanks on the island, you know? 

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah. The sharks are probably circling around in that island 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: probably. Yeah. 

Dr. Les Carter: But you understand what I'm saying. Part of our humanity involves pain.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Les Carter: And we need to come to terms of that rather than saying, well, we have to get rid of it. It's like, no, I need to have my own coping skills when I'm in pain. And that other person chooses not to be a partner in pain reduction with me. All they're doing is they're trying to increase it.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's interesting 'cause what you're really alluding to is that we not only need to be constantly improving our own physical fitness, but we're also be needing. Keep improving our emotional fitness as well, and part of that is learning how to deal with uncomfortable moments and disappointing relationships.

Dr. Les Carter: Yes.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. You mentioned that conflict is sort of like a big indicator to the healthiness of the relationship, but it often happens quite late into getting to know someone. Do you have any recommendations about how to pick up the fact that you're in a relationship with an immature person faster other than starting a fight?

I mean, 

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah. I've asked that all the time, and the problem is you now you have some folks there, they're just glaringly obvious, but others are a little bit more coy and they can, they're the covert narcissist, typically. Yeah. And they're able to cover it a lot more. But, you know, one of the things that I look for, in fact, I've got a video about questions that a narcissist can't answer.

And one of them is, you know, what is it about yourself that you find to be disappointing? and typically what they'll do is they'll say, well, I had a bad relationship with so and so, and you know what they're gonna do. Somehow they're gonna say, yeah, that person was a real jerk. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yep. 

Dr. Les Carter: And so they go into the blame mode as opposed to saying, yeah, I had a dis a relationship with someone that it didn't work out well.

and then I look at myself and it's like, it didn't bring out the best in me either they don't wanna do that, or you know, what are some of your hurts and what are some of your pain? Or where could you improve? and so you can ask those kind of questions and kind of get a sense as to where that person is coming from and if they, either A. Blame almost automatically and, or If they talk to you about their hurt, they talk to you like, they want you to become a complaint buddy with them.

you know, my ex is terrible or my old man, he was mean. And, you know, they just kind of made life miserable as soon as you walked in and all they do is complain. It's like, well, but we're not talking about how you're learning from yourself about yourself. And so, typically, if you are willing to go into those kind of, penetrating kind of, who are you questions, you'll start seeing patterns emerge.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, mine had a really great way of, it looked like a mature answer, but if I had listened more carefully and I did sense it, but I liked him, so I wanted to overlook it. But he said I didn't interview the past women that I dated well enough. Then he outlined what was wrong with him then. 

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You know, he didn't go on further with his failure to his over and maybe idealization or the fact that he

Dr. Les Carter: interviewed them correctly.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No. Yeah. It was just that he didn't interview well enough. Okay. He's a better interviewer at work.

Dr. Les Carter: You know what it is?

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What?

Dr. Les Carter: Victim.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, you're right.

Dr. Les Carter: Victim, everybody else's misery.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You're right. He didn't know.

Dr. Les Carter: Sometimes you have relationships and it takes time to get to know someone and you know, I've got mine idiosyncrasies and quirks, just as you do.

And let's take some time. Another thing that we have to watch for as well is when people are too quick to wanna latch onto you. that to me, that's a huge red flag. I had this one woman, and I, she was 40 ish or so, and she'd have one broken relationship after another. Bless her heart. And she, she came to my office on, you know, a Wednesday or something like that.

She said last weekend I had a first date.. It was the first date with this guy. And, it was incredible. 'cause we were just gonna have dinner and that was gonna be it. But we wound up talking till three o'clock in the morning and we, we just, were talking about all of our. Past and history and man, it was so honest, it was wonderful.

And I started telling him about all my hurts and all of this, and she just went on and on and she thought it was really good that they were having this bonding right away in their very first meeting. And I'm thinking, well, okay, I'm glad you had that, but, and she was excited. I think I found the one and I'm thinking, well.

If you meet somebody and they say, well, why don't we take our clothes off? We've known each other for 30 minutes. It's like, well, don't you think that's a little quick? and in the same day, I'm not gonna take my emotional clothing off, if you will, and reveal everything there is to know about me. right away.

We're gonna, we're gonna take time and have patience and let that build, and the unhealthy person is gonna say, let's do this as fast as we can. and let's just dive right in and, you know, we're not gonna waste any time with this. It's like, well, if love has a patient element to it, you have heard the phrase, love is patient, love is kind.

It's not arrogant, it's not rude. Then I've got time and, we'll get there. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: We always give each other the advice. Don't walk into a grocery store hungry. You're gonna walk out with things you don't need. I say to people, don't walk into a relationship meeting hungry. Now. Can you not be hungry? We're all a little hungry emotionally and psychologically.

Yeah, but if we're aware of it, we can get ahead and slow ourselves down from that. Like you just described, that click,

Dr. Les Carter: right.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It feels almost magical because you and I both know the amount of information we don't know about that person and that we're projecting our best selves into them is a whole lot and that's gonna be very dangerous.

Dr. Les Carter: Exactly. 

Yeah. One the, of the things that people, like you and me will tell folks is no healthy relationships require a lot of work. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Les Carter: And I remember thinking about that back when I was young and naive, like in my early twenties, saying, I can do it. and you know, it's like, no, when you get older, like 50 years down the road, it's like, okay, now I know what we're talking about.

Because it just doesn't fall into place. and we can't assume things and it's only as, you know, relationships and strains and tensions, begin to build. And then it's like, wait a minute, I'm seeing a side of you that I didn't think I was there quite as strongly as, as I had hoped. That's when we find out what we've got.

and then can we sit down and work it through or do we, panic or do we offer advice that the other person isn't ready for? and do we try to coerce and judge and shame and man, you know, all the rest? Or can we still have that patience? Let's figure out what this means. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: When do you think a conflict gone bad is it indication this is not a saveable or even a relationship we should continue in? 

Dr. Les Carter: That's a tough one because there's so many variations of bad. But when you have some strong name calling, shaming, comparing to other individuals if there's a, just a real thick wall of unwillingness to hear, a lack of empathy.

All of that those are signs that says, this is not looking good. Now they can come back later on and say, sorry about that. I wasn't at my best. But it's like, okay. Healthy relationships require empathy. Healthy relationships require a sense of freedom. And when I say that, if you saying, Les, I don't like the way you handle that, rather than saying You can't do that.

I'm trying to restrict your right choices. It's like, well, you're free to say that. Let me hear more about what you have to say. You know, healthy, communication and conflict resolution, requires a sense of equality. I don't feel the need to one up you and, to hold myself above you. and so when you look for those kinds of qualities like that and the person is trying to one up you, there's not much empathy going on.

There's an agenda that's there and it's really strong. And then the defenses are super tight. There's not an a willingness or ability to receive unflattering input. That's when you've got the red flags. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, and that can be hard to see sometimes because some people can come off looking sophisticated enough.

You think there's a meeting of the mind when there really isn't. So is there a way, do you know, for us to spot that better? I know for me, I'm starting to tune into better my sense of confusion or just feeling bad when I walk away from that conversation.

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And noticing there's no efforts at repair that for me to, like, even if I can't always see it, I can sense something's not good here.

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah. And one of the best ingredients you can have that will help you in that regard is called, time, T-I-M-E. Time. Time does have a way of revealing truth. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It does. It does. 

Dr. Les Carter: and then if you begin realizing, well, I seem to be working harder at making this a little bit of a better relationship than that other person, or finding our middle ground.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Les Carter: Then it's like, I don't want to just be the primary one that does that. I wanna know that there's a reciprocal effort there. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And that is so important, that reciprocity. I mean, if you're the always the one doing all the work to repair, chasing them down that says some, this person is not as invested as you are.

Dr. Les Carter: Yeah. The, a good word for our audience, to hold onto is the word mutuality. You know, we're mutually invested, not, I'm 80% invested and your 20, but we're each a hundred percent. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna jump over to the podcast extra and talk about, so in the middle of an argument and it's not going well. What are the practical steps that you can take to be able to sort of extricate yourself carefully back outta this dynamic? So I wanna give them like how to argue well, or at least shut it down for those who don't know who you are, which I don't know how people can not know who you are, but if they don't know who you are, how can they find out more about you?

Dr. Les Carter: Well, i've got the, the Surviving Narcissism channel on YouTube. That's my big thing. And I've been doing it for several years now. And then I've got books, The Anger Trap, When Pleasing You is Killing Me and some, and plenty of others actually. And then I've got courses that are on my website, survivingnarcissism.tv.

Uh, so I'm, I'm out there. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, I appreciate that. I'll make sure I highlight some of your books that are right in line with this topic for those who want more help from you. So thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Carter. This is as always an absolute delight. 

Dr. Les Carter: I hope it's thought provoking. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode.

Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a Toxic Free Relationship Club at kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.