Exposing Love Bombing: Insights from The Wolf of Wall Street’s Ex-Wife

What if the person you fell in love with never really existed?

In this episode, Dr. Nae — psychologist, author of Run Like Hell, and former wife of the real “Wolf of Wall Street” — exposes how master manipulators use love-bombing, mirroring, and coercive control to create a false sense of intimacy.

Learn:

•  How abusers build a fake romantic persona to hook their targets 
• Why trauma bonds are so difficult to break, even when you see the truth 
• The role of cognitive dissonance in keeping survivors trapped 
• How society’s myths about relationships can deepen the self-betrayal 
• Steps you can take to reclaim your identity and self-trust after abuse 

Podcast Extra Exclusive Interview
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More About the Podcast Extra Interview

🔹 Leaving a trauma bond isn’t just about walking away—it’s about planning your freedom in a way that keeps you safe. 

In this exclusive podcast extra conversation, Dr. Nae—psychologist, author of Run Like Hell, and former wife of the “Wolf of Wall Street”—shares the exact steps survivors need to protect themselves before, during, and after leaving a toxic relationship. 

Get immediate access to this extended interview for effective strategies and confidence-building insight. 

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Coercive control is a key piece to the power of a trauma bond. Talk about that. Dr. Nadine Macaluso, the. Ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street joins me again today to talk about why trauma bonds occur in the role of Coercive control.

Well, thank you so much for joining me again, Dr. Nae. We had you on before and it was just such a fascinating interview and I really wanted to come back because there was a lot that didn't get covered. I think we underestimate the power, the connection that happens in trauma bonds. So how did you, first of all, even get interested in trauma bonding as a subject?

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. What happened was that, unbeknownst to me, I experienced the quintessential trauma bonds, you know, in my first marriage many moons ago when nobody was talking about it. But I never, ever wanted to make it my specialty. I really actually wanted to have no specialty. I wanted to treat everybody. I was like adamant about it.

So it's funny how that happens, but then what happens? This was about, I guess 2014, 15. I just, all of these smart, bright, kind, beautiful women were coming into my office, being abused, being betrayed, being coercively controlled. And I was like, are we in the 1950s? And so I decided to go back to the research and I really wanted to understand what was this toxics, dysfunctional relationship that I was seeing in so many different shapes and forms.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. Because they all don't look the same. And that's when I got interested in trauma bonds and dark tetrad. And I've always been interested in somatic psychotherapy, you know, how to heal 'cause that's what my PhD is in. But really, I got actually just totally, genuinely curious because of who I was treating.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Interesting. Did you start to, was it a shock to recognize your own story as you started to dig into it. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: You know what, I always knew my own story was a domestic violence story, but I didn't understand coercive control because No, I mean, I was in school for seven years. Nobody even taught me about it, or

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, I never heard it. Not once. Yes. Not a word ever brought up. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. So that me was almost more fascinating in that because I knew my partner wanted to dominate me, but I didn't understand the invisible web of coercive control in all the different ways that it happens. And that's the tricky part because a lot of times, as we know this abuse is not physical, it's emotional, psychological manipulation and verbal abuse.

So I didn't know that I was a victim Of coercive control as well. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, no, and I didn't either. And here's the thing that I, I've noticed that people super struggle with, and that is we really like the idea that we have complete agency all the time. That we are autonomous individuals who are free will, but we actually, I wanna say often we are less autonomous than we think that we are.

And when we get into these relationships, we give it up. So help me understand what you've learned about this process. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. So what I've learned about the process of the trauma bond, right, is that when you initially meet this partner, I call him Romeo. I call the two masks, Romeo and Dirty John. They present as this all loving, all wonderful, charismatic, often. Now some people have more covert ones, but this partner that is generous, kind, and helpful and has your best interest at heart and, you know, wants to do everything for you. And you think, oh my God, this is amazing. And then there's a process of twinning where they like what you like. And there's the love bombing, right? The constant adoration and the texting, and there's the mirroring that they do where they're really good at mirroring back what you're feeling and feigning empathy. And so this is a whole, I call it a sweet seduction phase. And it's a love conning phase. Really.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And we don't know that,

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: we don't know that

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: this is just all the manipulation. No. In fact, I just saw a, powerful Facebook post written by somebody, and she explained that she was always in love with the mask. She didn't know that was the false. It wasn't until three months after they'd buried and had the baby that suddenly she saw the other side and realized she didn't even know this person.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Correct. So they're so, they're master manipulators and they're really predatory. I mean, they're on the hunt for an object, not a person to have power and control over to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. It, somebody else that I know found out that this person who circled into her life knew her from before, and it was a very different kind of power relationship in the before where she had a lot of power and this person didn't.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And he sought her out all these years later and she didn't know, she didn't recognize him because a lot of time had passed. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And yeah. And now she's real. Now she's put the whole thing together and she's feeling sick because this was a pursuit of something

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: From a, an obsession from long ago.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right. And the power piece is important because you have to have a power imbalance and It doesn't always start out with a power imbalance. Right. Even with mine, I mean. Even though he had more money than me, I felt equal. I mean, that was probably naive of me at the time. But, then over time, due to his resources, but it wasn't just that, it was that he became so dominating and intimidating and threatening that I feared him.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Then I, he had power over me and that was the power imbalance. And then as we know, the intermittent reinforcement, well, this is that behavioral pattern where now Romeo is only there about 30% of the time, but Dirty John is there 70 to 80% of the time. And that's where the control and the betrayal, and the manipulation, and the gaslighting and the pathological lying right to your face happen. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. It's interesting and I feel some shame about mine because the negative aspects started super early and I shared before you and I came on camera that I wear wigs. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And before our first big date where weekend date getaway, I let him know that I wore wigs. And up to that point I had never gone without my hairpiece. I usually had them tied in. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So you couldn't take them off. It was part of my hair. Okay. It was sort of similar extensions, but not quite.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But, I had moved to wigs after my late husband had passed away and I said I'd be wearing a cap. Yeah. And he said, well, if you can't let me see what you look like, then we're over.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. That's it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yep. And then I start, you know, broke down. I was a mess. I just got to meet him. I thought this is, he checked so many boxes, I wanted more of a chance. And on top of it, I also thought, because he couched it in terms of if you can't be vulnerable, I'm so tired. I don't want more people in my life who's not vulnerable and if you're not, so what I'm saying, he kind of tied into my desire to meet somebody at an intimate level and now that I look back and I see there's where he knew he got me.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: 'Cause I, you know, I wasn't ready. He knew he was really pushing me out into a very deep edge.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Incredible vulnerability. And I never recognized, I thought his disclosure was the vulnerability. I didn't recognize there was no vulnerability.

This was just control.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right. There was just control. Yeah. No, mine was three months in. If you don't marry me, I won't date you. If you don't, you know, so if you don't have kids, I won't marry you. So there was that constant pressure force trickery. So I would even call what he did, you know what your ex did was trickery.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's all part of the coercion. And for me, I, you know, I just self gaslit and said, oh, he just must love me so much. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, well that's what I would've said too. I mean the old me would've, I think we hear that a lot. You know, we are, we're told as little girls, well they punch you 'cause they like you, you know?

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right. So yeah, so that's, really how it happens and then what happens is we get the glue of the trauma bond, which is the cognitive dissonance. And to me, that is the hardest thing to deal with in the trauma bond and after the trauma bond, aside from post-separation abuse.

But because it's that confusion and that total lack of, is he good? Is he bad? Like this, craziness? Is he good? Is he bad? Is relationship good or bad? But it's also happens about yourself. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Am I good or bad? Where did I go? I used to have values. Why am I tolerating this? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I said, I've never stay if this happened, but I'm staying

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: right.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. And so the thing is we have cognitive dissonance on three different layers, right? And these thoughts are always ping ponging around in our head. And we never get resolution. 'cause we never land on an answer because they're always vacillating with the intermittent reinforcement.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And I had the weird thought. I almost in, in fact, that was what tripped me up the most. I agree with you. And Sandra Brown said, she says, it's the most agonizing part of this whole piece. It was very ag, it was tearing me apart. I literally felt like I was at war and I was being shredded by the inability to decide what was real and true, but I kept thinking I'm on top of a fence, this is a fence. In the relationship outta the relationship. This and the fence is the decision. And as long as I could stay on top of it and look at both sides, I hadn't really made a decision. I didn't realize I had because I wasn't making any decision. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Oh, so you had this whole imagery in your brain.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That was another self gaslighting. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Well, I hadn't even thought of it that way. Yeah, you're right. I didn't know that you're in the relationship. Your inability to leave is a decision to stay. I've made a choice. 

Yes. And that's, what happens 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: is because I always say you have to lose your identity to keep the couple's identity and this, and Sandra even calls this self perceptual injuries.

Like you start to not be able to see yourself anymore because just think about it. I had to deny all my values. Pretend repress all my needs, deny all my emotions, my feeling, wh where was I? Right? I was just a tool on the tool belt. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Did you become sort of like an auto automaton where you just sort of went through the

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I did too.

I like got flat. I like, no, I had, was never angry. I was never sad. I was just, I felt like I was a paper doll that dressed up and walked and talked and went through the day. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yes. Yeah. Sometimes I would get angry because I'm from Brooklyn, but thing is that it's didn't matter because my ex's rage was like a tsunami of rage.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: And I was no match for him. But slowly but surely, that loss of self, that's another, that's the other major symptom really does occur. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And it was the cognitive dissonance that drove the shame for me. Because I couldn't make a decision, and I'm a decisive person. I mean, how did I get where I'm at in my life is I had made lots and lots of really good decisions and the fact that I couldn't make them and people could watch me not making a dec.

I remember when I went back, we, separated for a month and I went back. I had lots of reasons why I went back, but one of 'em was I did love him. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You know, I went back and I remember somebody on Facebook said, who are you with? I can't believe you just did this. Even my family member said, you're not gonna be one of those women who go back, are you?

It's like, geez. I mean, I just felt so much judgment and with myself and from the world that, I think that's the other really hard part, is it isolates you your own, you're condemning yourself while this is all happening. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Oh, yeah. Because I always say we have it on three different layers, like they shame us and blame us.

We then blame ourselves, but then we blame ourselves for blaming ourselves. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: So we're just like in this shame, self blame cloud. And then of course that contributes to our isolation. And honestly, really nobody can understand it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Unless they're trained or unless they've gone through it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And then you're supposed to find enough energy in the middle of all that to, and the strength and the confidence to go out, find more enough work, make enough money, find a place to live, and if you have kids, take them with you. Go into a legal battle when you're feeling so defeated and ashamed of yourself for this.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right. No, it's, really, it's very, challenging. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I think that as I continue to look back, I still have like nasty discoveries. You know, I continue to kind of put things together. Like I now realize that he had been embezzling from us from you know, I brought in all the capital and the company was basically, I funded the thing.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But he was skimming money off and hiding it. I didn't really realize that. And I just, I think it's just like, it's deeper than you ever imagined, you know? Does that how it feels like to you? It's like 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah, you, yeah. The more we learn,

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: I mean, even you and I continue to learn, right?

We're continuing to learn every single day. Yeah. You get to see just the. It's different layers of it. It's like a kaleidoscope but a bad one. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, it keeps shifting. New thing comes into place. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. And again, you know, if, if you're living with somebody that's such a good con artist and really is an antisocial criminal.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. Then it is very hard to catch it in the moment. And let's talk about how you stop trusting yourself. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And that carries right into the rest of your, the second half of your life. I mean, you, it's like that's, I think the other big piece of this is a massive self betrayal. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: It's such a massive betrayal because you, what happens is that you go against your own inner knowing.

Your own intuition, your own core self, and it's like you systematically start to distrust your perception, your intuition, your authentic feelings. And I believe that cognitive dissonance is at the bottom of that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Cognitive dissonance about yourself is the foundation for all of this lack of self-trust.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. You know what my first title was gonna be My working title of the book.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: What ?

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Love You More, it was gonna be called The Betrayal of Me Confessions of a Sex Addict's Wife. 

Oh, I love that. Yeah.

But I just thought, oh, I don't know. It was in a well, ways that really, I think does capture the gut of the story.

It was, a betray, not just, it was his betrayal of me, but it was my betrayal of me. It was the society's betrayal of me. I mean, it was just,

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: yeah, and it's, you know, and it's so hard because you're like, wait, if I'm so smart, if I'm so strong, if I'm toge so together, how could I be in this situation?

But maybe I'm in this situation 'cause maybe I'm not who I thought I was. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You're making me think. Do you think that the society knowingly gaslights us into thinking that relationships are always equitable, always had equal amount of power? Like the fact that it says it's possible, that takes two to tango.

I mean, that's what we hear all the time. It's like, well, you, picked them. It took two to tango. Why? Why would you give away so much power? Why can't you leave? I mean, gaslights, isn, all thinking that we have so much.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah, well, there's so much stigma placed upon the victim. I mean, that's the whole reason why I wrote my book was to crack that stigma.

I couldn't, I really couldn't take it, but, and, but then we start to do it to ourselves. 

Because we're questioning our self knowledge. We're like, wait, I used to make good judgments. Am I broken? And I didn't know it. It's just like, and then I remember just thinking like, I can't assess reality. Who am I to assess reality anymore?

That's just a really tough road to go down. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Because even after you're out, and especially those of us who are clinicians, you continue to have flaw. I mean, I continue to make mistakes.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Of course. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I continue to make mistakes. You know, I continue to grow and learn what healthiness looks like. It's, it's not a clear, easy road to find and stay on.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: No. Oh, no. It's much easier to be a clinician in the movement in our own lives, isn't it? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. No, and so, I mean, there's that part I think, and that's why with the work that I do, the first thing I always say, it's everybody is. Turn the mirror back on you because we've gotta discover who are you?

Because you literally have to basically reclaim your identity.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Because it's gone. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And that's hard. I mean, I even start to by saying to people, figure out even what you like to eat. Can't, chances are your meals are not even the meals you wanna be eating. You're eating the meal your partner wants.

So what do you even like to eat? And sometimes like, I don't, know. I mean, they don't even, or what's your favorite color? I don't, I know what color he likes me. I mean, mine actually told me don't wear camouflage. I don't like, I don't like to see animal print on you. You know what I do, you know what I do today?

I wear animal print quite a bit actually.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right.. Okay. Feld, right. Like who are you to even tell me? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I know. Or we hear, you know, keep your hair long or keep your hair short, or why are you looking at the person? Or you know, you get you. People don't understand the degree that your life is controlled by this individual.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: The rhythm, the schedule, the pacing, the sleep. the diet, all of it becomes me. He there, he started even before we got into relationship, no pets. There are gonna be no pets in the, in our life or in a house, you know?

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Oh really? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh yeah. He was establishing roles everywhere. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Wow. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. So he, yeah. And again, I'm feeling a wave of shame.

It's like, Kerry, why did you think that's okay? But because I have been, sh that's what women did in my world. And my dad step into the house, my mom would throw the coffee on the stove, get it hot for him, and rush it over to him. And, you know that, that's what a loving woman did, and I did it. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You know? 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right. And you bring up such a good point in that Yes, we were, you know, society has socialized us into that. Into that message of this is what a woman does, but also you and I are therapists because we're highly empathetic people and we're pro-social and we value relationships and we love connection.

Right. So these are also beautiful qualities that we have. Albeit we're very imperfect people. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: But these people come in and weaponize that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, they do. And that takes a lot of forgiveness of self. And I see that in the women and men that I work with, that they're very, loving, caring, empathic people.

In fact, I was reading Dr. David Schnarch's book, the Passionate Marriage, I was reading aloud with him. I know, I love that book. I was reading it aloud with him, the two of us. And there's this where he says, the person who's the most invested in the relationship has the least power. And I remember thinking, that's me.

I'm doomed. That's me.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's a great, line. I know. That's one of my favorite books. I love that book.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: But that's true, and especially with a person that's pathological, that wants to use you, wants to harm you, wants to exploit you, wants to betray you because they wanna get only their needs met.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. We could go in the whole new direction, and I know we don't have time of it, but maybe just let's dabble our toe into it a little bit. Why do you think they're like that? This is what I now realize, Dr. Nae, is that there are multiple frames of the world. Multiple perspectives.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And not one, I saw the perspective that mine was the one that everybody saw the world by.

You know, there was a cooperative, it's a nice world. We're, a softball team, but we only have one team and everybody has a pot spot in the field, and we're all playing collectively for the good of each other. No, that's not what actually is happening. There are other frames out there, and what you and I have encountered is a radically different one.

It's a tug of war. It's a dog eat dog. It's the kind I don't know if you saw the Korean TV show. I'm Red Light, green Light. It's the one where they have this nasty, only one person walks out alive. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Oh, I haven't even seen it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: There's a, they're in it. One of the games they play is tug of war. And the team that loses goes down to their death.

They fall.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Woo.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And that's what this reminds me of is it's a, tug of war, but it's a one-on-one and no one's on their side. They're by themselves and it's against everybody else. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And there will only be one winner and they plan to be them. That's what it reminds me of. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. Listen, I think it's a bio-psychosocial.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right. 

So like certain people are born with a certain biology, for sure. Certain temperaments. That's what our friend, Dr. Salerno will say, right? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. But yeah. Dr. Gregory Lester, who also says the same. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. 

But then I do think that there are certain environments that turn those epigenetics on, right?

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: And turn certain genes on. And I, you know, I think it can happen just, you know, with people that are. Their parents just almost don't set any boundaries. Right. They're the golden child. Right. Or it can be extraordinarily abusive, dominating environments where the person says, I was so dominated and tortured in my own home.

Now I'm gonna be the dominator and torture. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: They identify with the aggressor where they've just never gotten boundaries and they've been entitled and enabled and been the golden boy. And then we, live in a patriarchy which is obsessed with hierarchy. Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: And people having power over the other, and so you just have a perfect cauldron of somebody who really thinks that they are superior, they're super entitled, and they have a right to get whatever they want, and they don't have a moral compass. You know? That's why I don't just call them narcissist. That's why I call them dark tetrad. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, Dr. Ramani, I got to meet her in person and she just a teeny bit of my story, and she looked at me and said, Kerry, why are you calling him a sociopath?

He's a psychopath. Come on. You know, he is a psychopath, right? 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: He's a psychopath, and actually now they're changing the name to the antagonistic tetrad because they're done with saying the word dark, which just means they're, I mean, they're just hostile people. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, but they're hard to spot. That's the other terrible part of this is that they're so the person that the world got to see.

People liked them. He's a good guy. And then, and the what little bit they saw of your story, he looked like a lot of fun. You know, initially. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: People still love him. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, And they even know stuff about these people and they still forgive them and love 'em and think they're great. And I just find it's 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: right.

My ex is a cultural icon. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And I bet he loves that too. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure he loves it. Come on. He's in heaven over that. Yeah. So, I mean, but if you think about it, we live in a society that really values extroversion. Susan wrote that book, quiet, right? Yes. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I love that book. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Right? So, I mean, we value extroversion.

We vow value being charming and magnanimous. Everybody loves James Bond. And so this is, these are things that we value in our society. Somebody who takes charge gets it done. These people do it in an extreme way. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And you're making a very good point, and this is what I appreciate the direction you drove it in and the direction you drove it in is, I was starting to say there's something hyper pathological about these individuals.

You're like, no, Kerry, this is a cultural norm. we've normalized, we've made this acceptable, we've even made this, I mean, look at who gets ahead, who's the top of the world, you know, we, celebrate these types of qualities, so why would we not think that? People, some people would think that they're highly valuable, 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: right.

Celebrate. I mean,, look how long P Diddy got away with it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh yeah. Right. Or Epstein, how many people knew the Epstein stuff, or it was, yeah, exactly.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: They all know. So this is something that. Again, we've accepted and I think we're finally starting to dismantle it. But you have to remember, it's just like when you're with this pathological individual, the second you start to see them and try to dismantle it, they double down.

So I think we're seeing that happen in the culture. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. But most of us don't understand that's part of the extinction cycle. You have, you're going to see the big pushback hoping that they will then stop and then we'll give it up and then it will just, well, things will go back to normal.

Or they'll love bomb all of us again, and then we'll think, oh no, they're not that bad. When they really are that bad. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. I think we're onto them though. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I think so too, but yeah, but you're right. Now the, it becomes, what do we do with our fear as they double down? Because they're good. They're good at threatening, you know, they're very, good at threatening that.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's what it is. They're so good at threatening. I mean, my ex did not like it when I was doing all this. And he like said to my kids, I can't believe you're talking to your mother. Like, I mean, he got really upset about it. And I just said to my children, you know what? He wrote a book. He made a movie. I get to do a three minute TikTok.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I love that. I love that. Yeah. No, it's, mine. I actually went and saw attorneys let me know that he had done. I, of course already had my own. He then accused me of setting all this up that I was the better scammer than he had done.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Oh God. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yep. That I scammed him out of my money and that but that he went to, one of the attorneys, he went for advice on the book, was one of the attorneys he claimed was part of the scam. And I'm thinking, make that make sense. Why would you go to the person you think was helped me do this to you? you don't even make sense. There's no internal consistency here.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: No. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: No. Well, because we know, so I said to my children, I said, oh, is Jordan my victim now? I don't think so guys. Love you. But the train has left the station. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Did were they able to work through that? Because that,

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: they worked through it with him and, yeah. My Jordan's a therapist, so she's very emotionally savvy and my son's been therapy since he's 16, so they're, very well versed emotionally and psychologically.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's good.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah, and they were able to all work it out, but I wasn't stopping. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No. I know when I was writing my book, there was a saying out of Tristine Rainer's book called Your Life As Story.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And she said on it. And I put it on my computer, write what you dare not speak. And there would be moments I'd like, I can't tell anybody this.

I can't say this. This is too bad. And like just. Just write what you dare not speak. And no one needs to know until I decide to push publish, you know?

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: That's right.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's still, mine only, you know, but it was, there was a lot of power in that. So that's what I would like to go to in the podcast extra with you, is if someone is resonating with our stories today.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What's the next step when if you're in the middle, you're being controlled, you, you're terrified. This person's made a lot of threats. Let's talk about what to do, how we got through that, because I know, I'm sure both of us felt great fear at that stage.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So, but how can people find out more about you?

But we also didn't mention your book Run Like Hell.

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Oh yeah. Run like, Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So how can people find you and what you're doing right now? 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Yeah. So go to my website, drnae.com. Go there. So many free assessments. Cognitive dissonance assessment, coercive control assessment. Just go there. So many free meditations and resources.

And then I'm on the Instagram, you know, Instagram every day. therealdrnadine. And then you came and spoke in my community, which is going so great. And that's again, you can see that on my website. And have a community of women that are still stuck or have left, and that are, they're all healing together and we run support groups and have wonderful experts such as Dr. Kerry come in and it's going great. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Awesome. Thank you so much for this. This was a fabulous conversation and I deeply appreciate you being back on. 

Dr. Nadine Macaluso: Of course. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club at kerrymcavoyphd.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a 5-star review. And I'll see you back here next week.