How to Outsmart a Narcissist in Court: Family Law Secrets from Michele Locke

Going through a custody battle or divorce with a narcissist? The you know the legal system can feel stacked against you.

This week, former family law judge and attorney Michele Locke reveals exactly how narcissists twist the truth, exploit legal loopholes, and weaponize the court process — and what you can do to outsmart them.

Whether you’re divorcing a narcissist, navigating parental alienation, or preparing for a high-conflict custody hearing, discover the insider tools to safeguard your case and your peace of mind.

Podcast Extra Exclusive Interview

Find it here the exclusive interview and weekly newsletter.

More About the Podcast Extra Interview

🔹 Choosing the wrong attorney in a custody battle can cost you more than money—it can cost you your case.

In this members-only conversation, former family law judge Michele Locke shares how to spot when your lawyer isn’t the right fit, why survivors of toxic relationships are at higher risk of hiring another toxic professional, and exactly what to do if you need to make a switch mid-case.

You’ll discover early red flags that your attorney might derail your custody fight, why “feeling comfortable” can sometimes be the wrong signal, and how to protect yourself from repeating old relationship patterns in the courtroom. But most importantly, learn how to replace your lawyer without sabotaging your case.

Get immediate access to this extended interview—and make sure the person representing you is truly fighting for your future.

👉 Join today: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse.

More About Michele Locke:

Website: https://www.coldwellbowes.com/people/michele-l-locke

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/attorneymichelelocke/

Podcast - LoveLustLaw: https://www.michelelocke.com/podcast

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

Michele Locke: Unfortunately, they have a constitutional right to parent their kids, and you can't do shit about it. You just can't.

When you're in litigation, let's be real clear, it is a poker game, and do you ever show all your cards in a poker game? No. It's the same thing in family law litigation. You don't point out every mistake.

Why, as a parent, would you ever want your child to have the sexual abuse victim label the rest of their lives if they're not?

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Abuse doesn't stop when you leave a relationship then starts the post-separation abuse to address the common issues with divorce and custody battle, i'm being joined today by Michele Locke. She's also a judge and a family law attorney.

I'm so excited to have you here. This is a discussion I've been waiting to have a long time, but before we hop into the guts of it, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into this arena? 

Michele Locke: You know, I got into this arena during my parents' divorce when I was in second grade in Ms. Henry's class. Because I remember my father, who was a surgeon telling me that if I ever became a lawyer, he would disown me. And that for me was like, done. And you think I'm kidding. I've wanted to be a lawyer since I was eight years old. I wanted to be a judge since I was about nine, and I never really deviated from that and family law for me my entire life has kind of been designed around family law, whether by choice or by circumstance from my parents getting divorced to both my parents remarrying, my dad remarrying a couple times until I married. Well, my now ex-husband, but my husband at the time, we were married for 22 years, 23 years. Anyways, he had two girls.

There were three and five when we got together. So I've been a stepparent. My stepdad adopted me as an adult. I was a former family law judge, and so when I've say I've lived all sides of the spectrum of divorce, I really have. So I am fortunate to have, I think, a pretty unique perspective when it comes to looking at family law cases and analyzing, you know, kind of how they play out in a courtroom, et cetera. I mean, 'cause I'm a litigator. I do. Texas is the only state left that does jury trials and child custody cases and divorces. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, I didn't know that.

Michele Locke: And yeah, the only state left and jury trials are a different beast. And so you have to be a different type of attorney to try, to do jury trials.

It's just not the same as a just gonna a bench trial in front of a court or in front of a judge. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's fascinating. What do you think most people get wrong about custody in general? 

Michele Locke: There's lots of things they get wrong, but. I think the biggest thing that people get wrong is their focus is misplaced because you are never going to get the, I'm sorry, from the opposing side.

On rare occasions you do, but I deal with mostly high conflict cases. And so you're not gonna get the closure you want. You're not gonna get the, I'm sorry, and you're never in court going to get the, you're right, he's wrong or he's right and you're wrong. The, it's never that black and white. The court's gonna find fault with everyone.

And so what you have to decide is what is more important. Is figuring out what's best for your kids or engaging with the battle in the battle with your soon to be ex. And I think that's the biggest mistake because the last thing you should want ever, unless you have absolutely no choice, and there are times where you have no choice, but the last thing you want is a stranger making decisions for your family.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, you're, yeah. Exactly. Right. And I think the other thing that I've noticed that's so painful about custody cases and even divorces that here you've been in this bad relationship, you've had to wake up, find the internal strength to exit that relationship, maybe possibly face threats and a lot of fears.

You're now out and now you're facing them off trying to defend why you should walk away as much of the pie as you can. and you should, so help me understand what you see happen in that process that really goes wrong. 

Michele Locke: You have to be smart about the battles you pick. That's probably the most important advice, because what I see, especially in communications, is you want to show that he's wrong or she's wrong, whatever sides you're on, that they are wrong in their communications. Each and every time they say a lie, each and every time they say something that's incorrect, invalid, not true, not accurate, or blown outta proportion. You want to defend yourself every time, and that is a waste of energy and it doesn't really get you anywhere unless it's something like you assaulted our child and that res requires a response. But if it's, Hey, he's got these bruises where they come from. If you've got, like for example, you got boys, my 10-year-old comes home with a different bruise every day. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: It's not 'cause he is being abused. It's like he is a boy on the playground.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Michele Locke: So there's a lot of noise that you have to learn how to filter to through. And I think that's probably the biggest learning curve. And divorce communication is an art form. It is not your regular communication that you did when you were married. It's not the regular text communication where you can just put anything in.

There's an art form to correctly communicating with an ex, and when you get with a narcissist, there's even more rules on how you communicate with that individual. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Oh, that's, yeah, you're exactly right. And that as it is, it's a big learning curve. Like what to say, what not to say, what to bite on, what to leave alone. And it takes so much strength to do that 

Michele Locke: and restraint. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, 

Michele Locke: it takes an immense amount of restraint. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Do you ever advise people in that process to get outside help and support in the middle? I mean, like 

Michele Locke: I do. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: Oh, I know it. So it either I help them learn how to do it. They get a parent coach that helps 'em learn how to do it. The general rule of thumb, I tell them all is. Do not respond when you're angry. Type out whatever it is you want. When you're angry. Do not send it. Save it for the next day for when you're calmer and then go back and edit it. The other thing I'll tell 'em is use the Biff method, which is a brief, informative, firm and friendly.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: You're not engaging in an argument over email. And then there's one that, the one other one that I always tell me now I'm forgetting what it was, what it is. I'll to come back to it, but there's another port of communication that I'm like, you just don't, oh, I went blank. Oh, well. It'll circle back around the airport line again.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Do you see, what's a common mistake that you think, don't do this. I know it's highly tempting to do it, but really resist doing it. It is something you like that you see all the time. People doing that is really gravely wrong. 

Michele Locke: Oh God, don't engage and don't insult. And don't say, well, if you weren't busy sleeping with your, you know, child bride, blah, just don't put in there.

Well, you know, Sam and Johnny said they don't want to go to your house. Please don't put that in writing. Please don't, you do not wanna put your children's statements that pit them against the other parent in written communication. You do not. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Because say why? Say what? 'cause I, they may not be obvious. 

Michele Locke: Why? Well, there's lots of reasons why. One, it, they'll say, you're an alienator. Right? That's number one. They'll say number two, if they don't do number one, number two, they're gonna take it out on your children the next time they come over. Right?

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Michele Locke: And so you have to be, you just don't like, if you are saying, well, Johnny said this, don't say it. Don't do it. Don't do it. The other thing I will tell clients, this is what it came back to, is if you are sitting there writing in communication and you know that your divorce attorney's not gonna be happy with that communication, don't send it. Because I guarantee most people know, Ooh, she's not, or he's not gonna like this.

Don't send it. Just don't. It'll save you a lot of time, money, and heartache down the road. The other thing I tell people is everything in writing is exhibit A. So unless you want it in front of a court. Don't do it. And that applies for text, that applies for voicemail messages, that applies for social media posts.

That applies for anything you put in writing. If you don't want it as an exhibit or you'd be embarrassed about it being an exhibit. Don't do it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, that's tough one. I see that a lot of people make that mistake or they, for example, they'll think social media is different cat, that's just my space, but it is not in space.

Another one, 

Michele Locke: it's not. I see text messages. Who

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: what about those that just send you like reams of page pages, like 40 pages of you know, because they walk out and say, how do I document that this actually happened? Because they don't really have the legal language and the wording, but they know something is wrong and they want that point across.

So then what they do is they send, 'cause I tell people, create a legal document. But part of it is because you can see the patterns. 

Michele Locke: Yeah. But you don't have to send it to them. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. That's true. Yeah. And no. Yeah, no, and I don't say that. But 

Michele Locke: yeah. I mean what you can do and is quite often is do like a letter to your attorney.

Dear attorney, that way it's protected by attorney work product. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Michele Locke: I mean, that's what I would do. And so that way, so that it's, so you're writing it for the purposes of litigation. That way it's not discoverable. And then it becomes a tool that your attorney can use when they're cross-examining your ex, but you don't have to confront them on every bad act because when you're in litigation, let's be real clear, it is a poker game.

And do you ever show all your cards in a poker game? No. It's the same thing in family law litigation. You don't point out every mistake. You don't send Aha, I got you, email, even though you're dying to send it. Because one, you show 'em your hand and two for a narcissist in particular, you give them the ability to come up with the answer.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, 

Michele Locke: and reframe the story. So why would you give them the ammunition to use it? And, that is on cases with narcissistic abuse. That is probably one of the biggest mistakes, is you want to prove that they are wrong. You want to get the evidence by saying them like, you did this on this date, and you send it all out nice and neat.

You think I got them? No, you just gave 'em your game plan. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: They're so good at that, and I think that's what frustrates the people that I see in the, level that I work with, is that there's, they feel like they're fighting against another narrative that's been created that's absolutely, they know is truly not what they experienced, and yet they don't know how to present their side of it.

So what do you see go wrong in those situations and what would you recommend people do differently? 

Michele Locke: So it depends on a couple things. One, you need to reframe your focus. So it's about the children, because at the end of the day, the courts don't necessarily care about you personally. They don't necessarily care about your ex spouse personally, but the court absolutely cares what happens to those kids, and they want to ensure that those kids are in the most stable environment that they can be in.

Given the circumstances of each particular case. That being said, if you've got a parent that doesn't get over it, then you are much more likely to lose in court because the court is going to view you as so fixated on the wrongs not being righted, that you're not focusing on the wellbeing of the children, and you're gonna carry over that resentment to the children, which results in alienation. It's like a domino effect. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I've seen that right now, that the courts are labeling somebody that I know is argumentative. When simply she's just trying to have her viewpoint validated. 

Michele Locke: Correct. And there's some view, like you've, again, it goes back to strategizing and, picking the correct battle.

And the correct battle is always the focus on the kids. Now instead of focusing. I understand like in Texas, if you get family violence findings, like there are some things that change custody by statute, if you've got a find a family violence finding, lots of times narcissists are not physically abusive.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Michele Locke: So even though they may have tormented you for years and gaslit you for years and breadcrumb you for years, which has driven you to the point of literally losing your mind because it's usually the last fight is the person that's is the victim that just basically snaps and is like, I can't, and they do things they wouldn't normally do, but they've been pushed to that point where they have no choice and usually the narcissist is recording.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. exactly.

Michele Locke: So instead of coming up for excuses, because I guarantee that person's gonna go play that exhibit, that recording in court, I've seen it done a million times. I've probably played that recording as well in my cases. Is, own your behavior. Own it. Say, yeah, that is unfortunate that I did that on that day, but you get a lot more credibility with the court when you own it, as opposed to saying, he caused me to do that because no matter the abuse, you still did it.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Michele Locke: No matter what the narcissist did to you, you still lost control on that particular day. Is it fair? No, but there are lots of four letter words in divorce, and I can assure you fair is not one of them. And so you just have to be smart and strategic about how you handle those types of cases, and you just have to make sure you pick your battle.

So when you're engaging with narcissists and they've painted this picture about you, you can agree to disagree. But you want to turn their behavior into a negative on the children, not a negative on you. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, that's a really powerful point. Really powerful point. And it I, yeah. So how do you know that you're dealing with a narcissistically abusive situation without having anyone told you?

Is there some like clear signs that you see when a client walks into the office and sits down with you? 

Michele Locke: So I don't know about visual signs, although there can be, I mean, I've had people and it's male and female, let's be real clear, that have walked in and you can just see that they've been beaten down.

And I don't mean beaten down physically like they are. They are a shell of their former selves. Like there are some that you can very much see that. And then there are some that you just have to really go through the facts of the case because then you start noticing the abusive cycles, like the financial control, the, like they have one car and someone drives and drops off all the day.

Like you start paying attention to the red flags. So to speak. Everyone, I think a lot of people overuse those terms, but really you start paying attention to the smaller details because when the smaller details start adding up and then you're like, yeah, we got some problems. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Does that change the way that the litigation or that the case plays out?

Michele Locke: It can. One, it's, people often expect for somehow when they get divorced that the person they were married to forever, many years is gonna change personalities and somehow become different in the litigation. No, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I know. It's like they're gonna get reasonable now. Why? 

Michele Locke: No, they weren't. They weren't reasonable in the marriage.

They're not gonna be reasonable in divorce. In fact, they get worse. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Michele Locke: I always tell people as well, Mike, they're no longer your friend. They're no longer your buddy. I said, they are now looking out for themselves. I said, and you need to do the same. You know, but so strategy changes once you realize what you are dealing with. When I look at any family law case, I very much look at kind of the nuts and bolts, like how did we get from A to Z? And so you kind of figure out where the problems really started because they didn't start right before they came to see you, right? Like a marriage has been on for 23 years, those cracks and that resentment, like the ultimate resentment that no one could get over started years and years ago.

And so you just kind of have to get to the source because once you get to really where the source is, it kind of helps you fashion how the litigation should go. I mean, provided you can control as much as you can control within the litigation structure. Once you get within in front of a different judge, it's different, but 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. One of the things that drives most people nuts though, is they think, if this person's so bad for me to be around, why in a world should I want them to be around my children? How? How can I safely allow them unsupervised time with somebody who is that toxic, and yet we don't. I know we don't have, yeah. So what do you say to that? 'Cause 

Michele Locke: So here's what I say. Unfortunately, they have a constitutional right to parent their kids. And you can't do anything about, I mean, can't do shit about it. You just can't. Like they have a constitutional right, now and everyone has a right to raise their children in whatever way they want to. And so what happens in divorce, and a lot of times the biggest problem comes from a parent that can't let go of control. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Michele Locke: And that is where a big problem comes from, especially with, and it really happens more with moms because moms are the primary caregiver, oftentimes on children. They're the ones that run the schedules, the activities, the doctor's appointments. And then when you get divorced, you all of a sudden have someone that's now jumping in where they were never in before, and that creates problems.

And so, especially on the cases involving narcissists, because those are the ones that most often end in court. You've, if you're ending up in court on family law, but especially a final trial, there's usually someone involved in the case, one of the parties has a personality disorder. That's just a general rule because most reasonable people who care about their kids will work things out.

But if you end up ending up in final trial. Someone's got a personality disorder. It's a general rule. There are exceptions to every rule, but as I find there's usually one party or both. It just depends. Has some kind of issue. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Do you think parental alienation is real or is it often a strategy that one person's using against the other partner as a way to claim the breach in the relationship with the kids?

Michele Locke: So I think it's both. Actually. I have done two jury trials on parental alienation cases, and both of the times my clients were the ones that were being alienated. And my issue with the label is not so much the label. It is, it's kind of what's happened with our politics. Everything is so extreme. That with what I've seen, it's either parental alienation exists in about every case and it's awful.

Or there's the side that says it doesn't exist, even exist. It's only used by abusers. I don't think the extremes are accurate. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle and I think there are different levels of alienating a child from one parent, and you may not call it alienation, but if you are consistently around your child and they overhear you saying how bad the other parent is, I don't care what you call it, you're not supposed to do it.

That is having your kid internalize that that other parent is bad. It just is, and so I think oftentimes it's not intentionally done. I think you will see some people where it is not intentional. The cases that I've gone to jury trial on, I don't have any doubt in my mind that it was a hundred percent intentional and done with the direct desired result, which was to destroy dad's relationship with the children and to ensure that dad never had contact with the children in both of those cases. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What did those people do? And it sounds like in your situation, you see a lot of women do this more than men. I've seen both sides do it, but 

Michele Locke: listen, both sides do it.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Michele Locke: I'll be real clear on that. Both sides alienate. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. So what are some clear strategies that people maybe don't always know but is actually gonna do this? 

Michele Locke: You know, oh, and this is what the people who say parent alienation doesn't exist. This is what they say. They say that only people that are abusing like sexual abusers are using parental alienation to hide their sexual abuse.

Okay. The cases that I had were allegations of sexual abuse by dad against the kids and both female children. And I know, and I told those clients when I first started to represent them. 'cause I go through the, whether I'm not gonna represent someone that's raping a child, right. I'm just not, not sexually assaulting a child.

I, that's kinda where I draw the line. And so I know when I met with those particular individuals, the, it was very much I had to assess whether I believed their story or not. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Michele Locke: And I also made it clear that if at any point in time I learned that in fact the allegations were true, I wouldn't continue to represent them while no one can ever know for sure because this is muddy waters and this makes, I mean, this is a very divisive comment that I'm about to make.

While you only know, the only people that know what happened were the two people that were there. I really don't have any doubt in my mind that neither one of those fathers ever were sexually inappropriate in any way, shape or form with those children. I do not. I mean, I will go to my grave. I, it just, it didn't happen.

It didn't happen, and in at least one of the cases, I firmly believe that the ultimate issue was that my client never married mom. And that was where her resentment came from. And it was such a deep resentment that she was gonna make it absolutely so that he could never see his child again, who he loved very dearly, and who he would've, I mean, who he has done and everything for.

And, that one was one word. When I say she went to every length to lie and manipulate and abuse this child, like I think she should been criminally charged what she did to this little girl. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's so heartbreaking sense.

Michele Locke: So, so what happens is sexual abuse, I think gets overplayed. I'm not gonna say that sexual abuse doesn't happen, but typically sexual abusers do it undercover.

Right? They don't continue to sexually abuse a person when they're under the watchful eye of a court. As a general rule, that's not what those perpetrators do. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: And so if you've got someone that's going into court and standing up for themselves and saying, I didn't do this. I didn't do it, and undergoing the questioning and the invasion into your life, that happens when that kind of allegation is made. And if someone's willing to do that for their kid, tend to believe them. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. I saw something similar years ago. It was my supervisor back when I was an intern. This is an amazing psychologist. You know, he supervised many people late in his career, divorced his wife and pops up all of a sudden that he had been sexually abusing the daughter, like he, he's, here's a child. He's a child psychologist. 

Michele Locke: Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Not, now. Can psych child psychologists do it? Oh, absolutely. 

Michele Locke: Yes, of course. Better. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Absolutely. But person, I knew him. I knew his integrity. I'm like thought, oh no, this is a red herring. But I know it devastated him. It, and then also it was devastating his career because, 

Michele Locke: well, and it devastates the kid. 'Cause why, as a parent, would you ever want your child to have the sexual abuse victim label the rest of their lives if they're not? I mean, it's hard enough if you are. Why would you give 'em a label when it's not? Like that's where the whole, you're not putting the kid first thing comes from, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: right. 

Michele Locke: Your anger, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: right, 

Michele Locke: and your hatred for this person that somehow wronged you is ultimately causing severe harm to your child. So there are cases of sexual abuse and the courts do err on the side of caution on those cases and when there's allegations made, cut out contact and, do the, you know, things, the right things under the circumstances at the time. So that's the problem is that, people in the extreme of parental alienation will generally say that it's used by abusers to protect themselves.

That may be. It may be true, but I don't also think that's not necessarily accurate in every case. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, 

Michele Locke: right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: I just don't like these labels of all or nothing. I think it really is somewhere in between. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Michele Locke: And these and the cases like this, where those allegations are made are the cases where thoughtful investigation needs to be done.

A thoughtful and careful analysis of all the evidence needs to be done, and no one needs to jump to conclusions, but I just. It's not all or nothing. And so I really disagree with all the pundits on both sides.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: To say it's all or nothing. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I appreciate that a lot. So this is my last question before we jump over and talk about something else on the podcast extra, but I wondered what it was like for you to represent a narcissist? 'Cause I'm sure you have.

Michele Locke: Oh, I have. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I'm dying of curiosity. What they're like as a client. 

Michele Locke: They are at sometimes your best friend. And then other times you wanna beat your head against a wall because they won't listen because they know better than you. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Say they probably know better than you, don't they?

Michele Locke: and they do. They think that everyone loves them. Every man or woman wants them, like they are irresistible and they know it all, and I hate to break it to them. They're not, but some of them are, being a narcissist doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad parent. I hate to say that, but it's the same thing as you can be bipolar and be a great parent, right? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Michele Locke: Like you shouldn't lose your kids necessarily because you have a personality disorder. Lots of people have narcissistic traits. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Michele Locke: I can guarantee every litigator I know has narcissistic traits. We couldn't be good at what we do without it, doesn't mean we're a narcissist, but Yeah, they are for me, in some ways, they're some of my funnest clients. 'cause I know what I'm getting. there's no, secret to who they are. Like you, you know.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Have you ever felt like you're being super exploited by one? 

Michele Locke: Yeah, I had one in particular, and that was a valuable learning lesson that I've not repeated that mistake since.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I bet. Well, this has been a fascinating discussion, Michele. Thank you so much for it. I wanna jump over to the podcast extra and talk about when you recognize the attorney that you've hired isn't working in your best interest and what to do about that. 'cause I know that happens way too often that victims tend to accidentally pick another toxic individual as a, as their attorney and then get abused again in that, that le, that professional relationship. So we're gonna hop over and talk about that, but, 

Michele Locke: that's interesting. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. How can people find you if they wanna learn more about you? 

Michele Locke: They can find me a couple places. I'm on Instagram @attorneymichelelocke. I also have my website, which is michelelocke.com.

I'm a frequent co-host on Love Lust Fridays. It drops about every Friday with Jake Deptula, who's done strictly stalking and Love Lust fear. and then I'll be launching my own podcast in the next two months called Love Lust Law. So I stayed pretty busy. But ironically, you had mentioned that particular topic because I actually did a blog on, you know when your worst decision in your divorce case is who you hired. Like the last thing you wanna be at the end of your divorce case is looking at your attorney going, man, that was my mistake. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I deeply appreciate this. 

Michele Locke: Well, thanks for having, I mean, really this has been just, this has such a ton of fun.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this. Episode, are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club at kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club at kerrymcavoyphd.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a 5-star review. And I'll see you back here next week.