When Your Mother Hurts Instead of Loves You: Understanding The Controlling Mom

Can you ever be “good enough” for a difficult mother? 

In this episode, psychotherapist Katherine Fabrizio, author of The Good Daughter Syndrome, reveals why empathic daughters feel trapped in cycles of guilt, exhaustion, and approval-seeking—and how to finally reclaim your power and identity. 

Tronick’s Still (Blank) Face Experiment

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW 

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MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA 

🔹 Setting boundaries isn’t just about saying “no”—it’s about grieving the mother you wish you had while facing the reality of the one you do. 

In this powerful bonus conversation, Katherine Fabrizio shares how to let go of the fantasy of a different mom, why pushback is a sign you’re on the right track, and how to reframe chronic protest behaviors as grief instead of personal failure. 

Get immediate access to this extended interview—and discover the strength to set boundaries that honor your life. 

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MORE ABOUT DR. FABRIZIO

• Book: The Good Daughter Syndrome: Help For Empathic Daughters of Narcissistic, Borderline, or Difficult Mothers Trapped in the Role of the Good Daughter  
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KATHERINE FABRIZIO, M.A., L.C.M.H.C., is a psychotherapist, mother, and the author of the Amazon bestseller, internationally published, and award-winning book The Good Daughter Syndrome. She lives in Raleigh, N.C., where she dances to loud music, talks to her husband about everything, and enjoys her grandchildren without doing any of the work.

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. 

Transcript

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Are you struggling with an over-involved, controlling or a narcissistic mother? We'll talk about these difficult dynamics. Katherine Fabrizio, author of the Good Daughter Syndrome, joins me to get into this very timely topic.

So thank you so much, Katherine, for joining us today. You have a new book out called The Good Daughter Syndrome and I really enjoyed it. It was an amazing read.

Katherine Fabrizio: Thank you.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But tell me, how did you get interested in talking about the, and writing about the subject? 

Katherine Fabrizio: Well, to answer that question, we'd have to time travel probably 35 years ago.

I had just finished my graduate degree and finished my clinical internship. Setting up in private practice. Married a nice man and had two beautiful children and started in practice with my psychologist mother, and I was leveled with a paralyzing depression, which really confused me because I thought I had everything that I wanted.

So I didn't understand it. So like a good therapist. I got into psychotherapy and discovered my mother and I were very close. We were two peas in a pod, but like I like to say, but only one pea was in charge. She thought she knew best. We both thought she knew best what I should do and how I should do it.

There were three people in the marriage, me, my husband, and my mother, and I can tell you who got the most say she did. She weighed in on everything in my life and we both thought there was nothing wrong with that at the time. At the time there was no such concept as boundaries that like wasn't a thing people just saw, you know?

Oh, mother daughter practice. That's wonderful. And so I got into psychotherapy and I learned that this suppressed anger was really taking a toll on me. I didn't know what I thought about anything, but I could tell in a nanosecond if she was okay and if she was okay with me. And that had kind of always been the case.

So I'll never forget the day that I walked into the office that we shared and with my heart in my throat, I said, mom, I've gotta leave home. I'm leaving the practice. And she didn't like it. I knew it would break her heart because a mother-daughter practice had been her dream, but I knew staying would break me, so I left.

And I would like to say, you know, it was a Hollywood moment and the sky's opened up and everything went smoothly. it had this separation, this, the boundaries had to be renegotiated over and over again, but I got better at it and. As this happens, a lot of what I now call good daughters, kinda washed up on my couch and women who would come in with all kinds of presenting problems, anxiety, depression.

Many times I had landed in a relationship with a narcissistic partner, and when I dug a little further, more times than not, I would hear about their relationship with their mom and they'd be very, again, 30 years ago, very reluctant to talk badly about their mothers.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Katherine Fabrizio: Many of them would say, well, I went to a therapist who said, my mother's a narcissist, so I quit that therapist.

And then decades later, you know, the same dynamics were in play. So not only did I kind of understand my story, but I got to hear every variation on what I came to find out was a theme. I see daughters who are in no contact with their mothers, and I fully support that daughters who just, the relationship kind of needs a tweak and there's some intergenerational wounding in there and kind of everything in between.

So that's, my story and I, I, a good daughter, you know, a daughter. I was very motivated to be good, to be a performer, to not rock the boat, to make mom look good, make mom feel good. And so that phrase kind of stuck with me. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's a powerful phrase. It really captures, I think, what a lot of us feel in these relationships that trying to be good enough. Did you think that by the end of her life that you succeeded or did you not? I was curious about that. 

Katherine Fabrizio: That's a good question. She got dementia and so oddly enough, her controlling bossy nature, sort of fell away and she was kind of sweet at the end. I do feel like, again, it was decades. She never liked my boundaries, but she grew to respect them and in some softer moments would say that I was aware of something and I was onto something with boundaries. And she had, been intergenerational, she was very controlled by her parents and had the same dynamic. And so there was a part of her that kind of admired it.

But I, and people do ask me this, but she sometimes she was, could grasp it at times and not act out, but probably 80% of the time that drive to be superior, to be intrusive was always there and I would have to set up pretty hard boundaries. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Katherine Fabrizio: So it's not like she was cured and we could fully have a equal kind of respectful conversation.

It was just she was hard boiled. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Why do you think people struggle? Because this is a common thing that what you described, this not seeing it. We often see the other more problematic relationships. Maybe we come in and we're describing that we're having problems with a kid or maybe, with our partner, maybe even with our father.

But Why do you think that it's difficult to see the challenge with the mom? Does, do you have some thoughts about that? 

Katherine Fabrizio: You know, I think it's based in the evolutionary biological mandate to do this relational, like do the work that it takes to get this person that we know. So our survival brain, I use that word a lot.

Survival brain knows we can't feed, protect, take care of ourselves. So whatever mother that we're given, we just implicitly do whatever it takes to make that relationship work. If you think about, you know, there are all kinds of studies pre verbally, how, yeah, I think the flat face experiment.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. The blank face. That's what face,

Katherine Fabrizio: yeah. Experiment where they bring kids in, even later on after they do the experiment and their physiology remembers the trauma. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Wow.

Katherine Fabrizio: Fascinating to me, and this is before, you know, this is pre-verbal. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah,

Katherine Fabrizio: so when we look into mom's face, if we see, you know, cloud of depression or the distraction of anxiety, or maybe she's altered in some way, particularly attuned many times, first starters, not always, but we're tuning into that and we're either like suppressing, you know, not rocking the boat. Maybe we're quiet, maybe we're good. We do whatever it takes to make that relationship as connected as possible. So I think this lives in our unconscious, in our implicit brain. And so then say adulthood, well, I've learned about boundaries. I'm gonna set some boundaries with mom, and then it's terrifying. It's like. We'd go to do it. Like I know when I walked into my mom's office, I could, it was like a disembodied voice. I knew what I wanted to say, but it was almost like somebody else was saying it. My heart was in my throat.

I had to kind of choke out the words and think why so why was this so difficult? I think it's because there's so many neuropathways laid down that say, alarm. Alarm. When we, you know, consciously want to relate differently and we logically think that's a good idea, but our nervous systems, you get activated and, say this, you're in dangerous territory.

You're not gonna survive this. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Katherine Fabrizio: 'cause on some level that's what we feel happened. That's just touching the surface. There's so much more to it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, it's powerful. 'cause just this week somebody was saying something to me similar, they were, they said to me, well, I knew my dad wasn't a great person. I had a lot of anger about that.

But then I, when I got a deeper look at it, I realized it was really that yes, he was maybe problematic, but really the issue was with my mother. That in a way he was surviving her as well, and I hadn't realized that she was the larger culprit here. And it reminded me years ago, I went back in the day when I was working at a psychiatric hospital.

I had a client, a young client, I mean I'm talking early elementary age who had attempted to harm himself in a very serious way. It resulted him being hospitalized. His mother was not an adequate mom. I mean, it was just she just didn't have the skill sets or the resources. She was barely holding her own life together to really know how to show up for him.

And yet when she would come to visit him, you would think it was Christmas. Seriously, it was like, his whole body would light up with such excitement to see her, and yet you knew that he would probably walk away disappointed because the connection just wasn't very healthy, very what he, it wasn't what he needed.

Katherine Fabrizio: It's like Hope Springs eternal. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, it does. Yeah. In fact, one of his themes in the play therapy was he'd play hide and seek in the dark in my office. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Oh, wow. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Isn't that powerful? He like, find me when you, and literally my office would go pitch black. 'cause it had no, no windows in it.

So it was dark. it could, and he would, 

Katherine Fabrizio: yeah, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: he would play hide and seek in the dark and want me to find him. And I thought, oh honey, you're breaking my heart. Oh. 'cause I know that you wanna be found so severely. 

Katherine Fabrizio: I mean, in the same, so like my mother, the same person kept me out of traffic. She kept my hand off a hot stove.

And so I don't think anybody's a monolith, but, and so the same person who could be gratifying in some moments, particularly when I was performing, when I was quote unquote, making her look good, making her feel proud, those were very heady. She was charismatic. I could, I guess the intermittent reinforcement I would feel really good. Yeah. And it was hard to give up that drug, but she had trouble when I would struggle or like exhibit. So, you know, like a child exhibits the full range of emotions, envy, anger, insecurity, and so the degree to which the parent is okay with those feelings within themselves. Particularly the mom, you know?

Then they convey whether they're okay in you. So you learn to repress them. I mean, if I showed envy. It's a green eyed monster 'cause she didn't like it in herself. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. You make, that's a big point that you bring up in, in your book is talking about the way in which they handle emotions and their difficulty with emotions ends up being projected and worked out with their children. And I know that you're talking more about daughters, but I actually thought this is very applicable with both sexes. Maybe it shows up a little differently with both, but I thought that was interesting 'cause I've noticed a few things and I'd love you to kind of see if you could unpack this a bit. You're right. Sometimes it's almost a dismissiveness or a denial of the emotion. Other times there is a, there's a rejection, a shaming of the emotion. Sometimes there's almost a, there's an a, a degree of like hunger, like it's insatiable. Like they want more of that emotion.

So can you talk about what, how you see the mother or the, even the parents' inability to process their own emotional range, how that gets worked out with their, With their children or their child. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Well, speaking as a mother, I can say, you know, you like when your child falls down and scrapes her knee.

You don't think about how that feels. You just, you have a visceral reaction. Yeah. Or if they have a meltdown in the grocery store, it's like your own nervous system. I think it takes a really strong, solid, secure parent. So if you have an insecure or easily dysregulated mom. And of course you're, as a kid, you're gonna exhibit probably about every, emotion.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Right? And you're not, you haven't started to censor them yet. So I think two things happen. One is that if mom's dysregulated a lot of the time, if she's not bigger, stronger, more put together, then the child becomes their regulator. And they're more likely to constrict and not show what gets, you know, displeasure.

And, you know, you can see it in your mother's face in nanosecond. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. Yes.

Katherine Fabrizio: I could tell when mom called me up, I could tell by the tone of her voice how this conversation was gonna go before words registered or logic. Many times I would say she's loaded for bear. Like she's looking for an argument.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Katherine Fabrizio: Or needy and wanting just to kind of, to go on and on and not really wanting my feedback, but wanting my witness. Okay, so let me get back. So I think there's so much that's unconscious, particularly with parent child things and yeah, if you think about it as a mother in each, in every parenting moment, probably really good parenting looks dull. You know, I've heard on parenting adolescents, you're, the best parent, is a potted plant. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, it hit me was you're talking, I know this is, you're still a mid thought, so I know that we're gonna, but it hit me when that, as you're saying that, and I never considered, but I, in a way, I guess I had that you, as a therapist, you're trained how to go in and be available in the moment for that 45 minutes, 15 minute hour with that client.

You, the client's needs are the one that's present, not yours. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You literally leave yours behind you and then deal with it separately from them. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Yes,

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: but we never think about teaching parents that they need to do the same. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Yes. That they need to be bigger, sturdier, more put together. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. 

Katherine Fabrizio: And that their reactivity will have an effect on their child 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Now, depending on the child, it's different, but I like to think about it.

Yeah. The, mother can use the child to co-regulate and the child's pretty much a blank slate at first. pretty much. So if, I don't know, say the elementary school child comes home and she's had, her best friend has played with another person on the playground, right? That's a, you know, she comes in tears. I hate school, and the mother asks a couple of questions. So. In a nanosecond, the mother's sense of belonging, loyalty, or betrayal, all the feelings that she's experienced, that's gonna determine, unless she thinks about it a lot, how she responds. Well, you know, you, do kind of do this to your friends, whether she's gonna be critical or she's gonna say, yeah, everybody's gonna betray you at some point you have to look out for yourself.

And the more regulated parent is probably gonna say very little and kind of be able to take in 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Katherine Fabrizio: You know, the child's emotions and maybe, and maybe say, I'm sure that hurts. But also offer some reassurance because they know that within themselves, I mean, there's no more naked tests than parenthood to test how you know what you feel on a raw level, how well you've worked through your stuff, because it's gonna come up again and again, and I would say, so that child, if she gets criticized or if her mother goes ballistic and says, well I'm gonna call that mother and we're gonna have it out, you know, learns whether or not it's a safe, mama's a safe place to have the emotions. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Katherine Fabrizio: And again, this is, you know, just one little example, but if you think about how that's repeated throughout development.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Over time, now, a narcissistic mother will be more driven. She'll need to be more superior and have power over her daughter. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. And see the daughter's competition and or any of her children actually. Yeah. it seems to me almost the children seem to be both the extension and the competition. It's this bizarre duality that happens.

Katherine Fabrizio: It is. So, the decree to which, and I would say the good daughter, the mother is more likely to see her as a narcissistic extension and to appropriate, which is, it's so confusing, isn't it? Sometimes they'll compete, but when they're appropriating in that you're just an extension of them, it can feel very heady because when you're breaking them, making them look good, and they feel prideful, it's all good, and you think they're really looking at you, but if they're looking, experiencing you as just an extension, look what I created. Then when you start to struggle or you express insecurities, they don't wanna have anything to do with that, or you make the A minus, not the A plus. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Katherine Fabrizio: So then a lot of daughters develop kind of this imposter syndrome. That's a lot of appro, what I call appropriated daughters.

And they implicitly know that anything less than perceived perfection in getting the A and being a winner. Anything less is gonna challenge mom. And so she'll either maybe micromanage you or always trying to make you better, or saying, yes, that's great, but don't you think yada, yada, And so they come away with the feeling of, well, it's just never good enough to satisfy mom.

So I would say between mothers and daughters, what I see the most is conflicted messages. Like, yes, proud of you. But it's usually conditional or, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. The one that I am very familiar with is, I'm proud of you, but don't get a big head. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's like, okay, how do you walk that line? What's what, where?

Katherine Fabrizio: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: tell me what that tightrope looks like. 'cause that's a very narrow, you know, beam to walk 

Katherine Fabrizio: and I guess it's will be good as long as you're making me look good, but don't threaten me. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: yeah. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Don't be so good. Don't get the big head because then you'll be threatening and then you add being a woman in this culture and patriarchal.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Katherine Fabrizio: Culture people. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You made, one of the comments you make later in the book that just leapt out at me. I thought it was so powerful and is about control. You, because I know the healing part comes, we spend a lot of time, and I'm sure you've seen this, where clients come in or we really want our parent or mom to change. And inadvertently we don't realize that we're trying to exert control over them while they're also trying to exert control over you. And when I read that, I just thought, yeah, exactly. That's what happens. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Because also I can say what I used to do, I would write epic emails. I would spend entire weekends crafting my argument and looking back, which of course, you know, always fell flat. She's PhD psychologist, debate champion. I mean, there was no way I was gonna, there was no way I was gonna win the argument. Looking back, I know her defenses, she couldn't afford to give it to me. She needed the defense of being superior. But what I was doing was really asking her permission and her approval if I explained enough then she, the light bulb would go off. She's a smart woman. Right. So, but, and, that's a form of kind of counter control. But it's also a way of staying subservient. So if I can explain to you and you can change, then we can still have this amesh relationship and be in the three legged sack race, right? So I won't have to really challenge your authority and, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: oh, I've never seen it that way before. That's really powerful. 

Katherine Fabrizio: So we can keep this togetherness because it's so threatening.

I think particularly with that same sex, like. Yeah, it's my mother. It's terrifying. To really change the dynamic, what I finally learned is that I needed to make decisions that were right for me and to inform her. And what lots of good daughters don't know is that they have so much more power than they know they do. That you don't have to bring mom over to your side. If there's any reasonable part in her. She knows this deep down, that you really have the power over how much you get together. How much access she has to you and probably your children. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Katherine Fabrizio: That's like the big secret that she's not gonna show her hand, but I can tell you that and 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Katherine Fabrizio: You can act on that and it's, hard because you're really acting out of your own sovereignty, and I would say nine times outta 10, she's gonna come along because the consequence, if she doesn't, she's gonna lose big time. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right, 

Katherine Fabrizio: and she's not gonna have any more children. You know, it's kind of the end of the road for her. So you have more power than you know, but you have to give up that approval that maybe she's never gonna give you. She's always gonna move the goalpost because to her that means she seeds power. To her, that means defeat. But you don't have to be in that mindset, but you have to adopt a whole other mindset.

Say, well, you know, mom, you have made the decisions for your life. I hear you. I know how much you want to see me, and, but this is what works for me. Because then I work with adult daughters because you know, I've got a job, kids, a partner. So just as mom's kind of aging and losing her access, many times the daughter is establishing herself professionally, trying to have a partnership work, raising kids.

Then if you have this dominant, narcissistic, or borderline mom who wants to suck up all of your attention, usually women, we get washed off on my shore on my couch because they're exhausted. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I get a lot of comments about people's in-laws. So here you have a very dominant mother, but she's not your mother, she's your partner's mother. And that adds a whole nother layer of difficulty because of the one, one person removed, and I know the in-laws, I mean, being the partner of a difficult mother-in-law is, or a diff you know, your partner's mother. It's so challenging when it's that distance because 

Katherine Fabrizio: yeah, you don't really have the power your husband does or your partner does.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. Or if it's a husband, your wife has the power with her own mother. Yeah. It's, it just becomes. Very layered, especially when the, person involved is still enmeshed and doesn't realize. I mean, you, your own story, you said you were three of us in this marriage. 

Katherine Fabrizio: yes. I, do a lot is maybe too big of a word, but I do get some husbands who say my wife is involved in this dynamic and she can't see it.

And that's tough because the individuation has to come from, you know the person you just don't have, you just don't have that much power. I do think if we're talking about heterosexual couples, which is not everybody, but sometimes men miss the power that they have by saying, come on over here, look for closeness with me.

When you put up these boundaries with mom, I will support you emotionally because you will need it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. I think that's such a powerful point. It's a really great way to improve the relationship connection between the partners, but also to protect the person who's struggling with their own mother.

Katherine Fabrizio: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It really, it does. It kind of does, plays two roles at the same time. 

Katherine Fabrizio: It does. There's tremendous opportunity for closeness, but then the partner has to step up. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Katherine Fabrizio: 'Cause sometimes you get the dynamic, mother and daughter are so close, there's no room for the partner and the partner has to say, Hey, this is not working.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Katherine Fabrizio: You know, I need to be primary, but also I'm gonna step up and be emotionally available to you. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. Well, I could tell. Yeah, we could go for another hour. There's so much to say about this topic, but we are also really running outta time, so I'd love to jump over the podcast extra and talk about something we touched on but didn't follow through.

And that is when you are setting those limits with your mom and you're acknowledging the fact that you're letting go of her as mother in a way. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: This hope. That you have 

Katherine Fabrizio: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Of a better mothering experience. I'd love to talk about how to deal with that as you set those new boundaries. And take the power back for yourself.

Thank you so much for being on Katherine. So how can people find out more about you, but also find out, how to be able to get the Good Daughter Syndrome book?

Katherine Fabrizio: If the phrase the Good Daughter Syndrome speaks to you, Google that phrase and then put the word quiz. After it, you can take my quiz.

That will kind of add some more, put some more meat on these bones, determine, you know, broadly whether or not you are suffering or struggling with this. And, then I'll send you an email. And my, book is The Good Daughter Syndrome. You can say book pretty easy to find. I'm Katherine Fabrizio, but you can forget that and just remember the phrase. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I appreciate that and I'll make sure to put where to get the book, the quiz that you just mentioned. 

Katherine Fabrizio: Thank you. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: As well as your website. I'll make sure to include that in the show notes. So thank you so much for today. It was a rich conversation. I really deeply appreciate it.

Katherine Fabrizio: Oh, thank you for all the work that you do. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club at kerrymcavoyphd.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a 5-star review. And I'll see you back here next week.