How the Victim’s Personality & Attachment Styles Shape Healing and Recovery - Featuring Chelli Pumphrey

Do you know what one of the most dangerous traps you can fall for? Believing that you can “fix” a narcissist’s early attachment wounds. 

In this exclusive episode, therapist and author Chelli Pumphrey explains why narcissists rarely have secure attachments, how anxious or disorganized patterns drive their constant need for supply, and why survivors’ empathy often backfires when met with exploitation.

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW 

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🔹 What’s the attachment style of a narcissist?

In this powerful bonus conversation, Chelli Pumphrey shares the impact of narcissist’s attachment styles on relationship dynamics.  

Get immediate access to this extended interview—and discover which attachment styles are more common among narcissists and other personality disorders. 

👉 Join today: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

MORE ABOUT CHELLI: 

Book: Insight is 20/20: How To Trust Yourself To Protect Yourself From Narcissistic Abuse & Toxic Relationships 

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CHELLI PUMPHREY, LPC, CCTP-II, NAST, is a Licensed Professional Counselor with over 30 years of clinical experience. She is a Level II Certified Clinical Trauma Professional and a Certified Narcissistic Abuse and Survivor Treatment Clinician, specializing in complex trauma, adult attachment, and recovery from narcissistic abuse and toxic relationships. She serves on the advisory board for the Association for NPD/Psychopathy Survivor Treatment. 

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. 

Transcript

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What makes a victim attractive to a narcissist? To answer that question, Chelli Pumphrey joins me today. She's the author of Insight is 2020 and is one of the leading experts in narcissistic abuse.

Well, Chelli Pumphrey, I'm so glad that you're here with me today. I've been aware of you for a while. I know that you work very closely with Sandra Brown, right at the Institute for Relational Harm. Yes. And then you also have a work of your own called Insight is 2020, which is, I was just telling you off camera how brilliant I think that title is.

And what I love about the work that you're doing is you work intimately with survivors and, and even that you call it relational harm, which I think is more. Accurate than narcissistic abuse because it is harmful. These relationships are harmful. So today I wanna get into more about why we struggle to leave when we're in these toxic relationship.

What happens that makes it so hard to get out? So kind of tell me a little bit about, maybe a little about about yourself, how you got interested then. Then let's kind of move into that direction. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yeah, absolutely. And I just wanna say I'm, I feel the same about you. I'm so excited to be here and just honor the work that you've done in this community.

And so, yeah, it's good to talk about this. So, let's see, how, how did I get into this? Well, it was professional first. Like I had, I mean, I've been a therapist for 30 years and I've always worked in the realm of domestic violence and especially through, you know, a lot of specific work with women, sexual trauma.

So it, it's been like the field of domestic violence, let's say, has always kind of been there, but. As many of us know, there's, there's sometimes like two different paths that run parallel of domestic violence and then, you know, what we would call pathological abuse with people with personality disorders, AKA narcissistic abuse.

And, and those two still need to really become integrated at some point. So I. Over time started realizing more and more through my own education and experience, you know, that there is a separate thing with this narcissistic abuse. And in the meantime, I went through a very long history, not only in my family of having been.

With a narcissistic stepparent, but also having several narcissistic partners in my life. All the while I'm working with this and thinking, I, I, I have I, why does this keep happening to me? And I could not understand it, and it wasn't until. I mean I'm, I do a ton of therapy and personal growth work, of course, to be in this field, but nothing was getting to the core of this, and it wasn't until I met Sandra Brown and understood.

Or learned about her approach, and especially looking at personality traits and their influence on our vulnerability. That made everything click for me, and that's when the tables really turned and where I started implementing her teachings into my work with survivors and that. Has helped people, uh, including myself, just be more integrated and understanding and why this is so hard, why are we so vulnerable, and how do we heal from this, essentially.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. In fact, I, am I correct in saying that Sandra Brown actually was one of the first originators, first people into this topic? Identifying there was something uniquely different happening. For a lot of people in a less than ideal relationships that was different than domestic violence. 'cause yes, that, that work she did in 2014 around pathological love relationships was just phenomenal.

Right. Because there was a lot of assumptions we had prior to that and I, you still see it in mainstream media. The assumption that the person who gets into a less ideal pathological, let's whatever word you wanna call narcissistically abusive relationship is just a. Person who's picks poor poorly. You know, we say to them, do better.

Pick better. . And we don't realize that there's there that there's some something going on behind the scene that is much more insidious and actually very dangerous. And, and that this is a different situation. Yes. Domestic violence is an issue, but this is a little bit, it's similar but different.

Can you say more about that? 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes, absolutely. And yes, Sandra was the one that really started looking at this and. What what's been very traditionally shared in this world of domestic violence is that people who are abused are codependent or picking bad, like you said, like, and it's, there's kind of this victim blaming kind of energy with this.

And Sandra started looking at personality because here we are looking at. The personality disorders of people who abuse in this way. But we weren't looking at the personality traits of the survivors that were getting hurt by them. Right, right. And so she did a research study with Purdue University where they identified what we call the super traits or two certain personality traits that make.

And this research was done on women. So I'm gonna just say women, but it makes women more vulnerable to this. So, you know what I can, I'm gonna share kind of a synopsis of her work on that and how it kind of answers your question. And then I'll also share some of my work on attachment styles. Okay. And how I believe it also plays into it because I think they're, they're both a big part.

So just like a little tiny, like a snippet of what it means to think about what personality is. We all have a personality style and there, this is one of the most widely researched aspects in psychology is our personality traits. And some therapists have a smidgen of information about it and just kinda don't think much about it.

And some people do a lot of work on this, essentially, you know, our personality comprises. Who we are, it's our traits, our values, different characteristics, and it's kind of how we show up in the world and what we know is personality re, you know, it's fairly stable throughout our adult lifespan. Once it's kind of found its formation and, and typically what we know is that personality tends to be pretty stable from our thirties on.

 . And so what that means, and if we look at, first of all, a narcissist, for example. When they have a personality disorder, which is narcissism or sociopathy or psychopathy, something like this, the chances of them changing. When your personality is pretty stable or pretty slim. Now, there's a lot of other reasons why people with personality disorders don't change, but I'm just kind of encapsulating that in a basic understanding of personality.

But what is also important to know is that as survivors, we also have these personality traits that are pretty foundational to us and are pretty unlikely to change. So the thing that. Kind of collides here. When we think about this idea of codependency, of like, well, you don't have strong boundaries.

You're getting en meshed. You're losing your identity in this person. You're a caretaker. Well, why are we codependent? Right? That doesn't ex, like, if we're focusing on that and it's our personality that is kind of with us for our whole life, well, it's gonna be really hard to heal that away. It's just not gonna happen.

It's who we are. So what, what Sandra found in this research was that there are two super traits. One trait is agreeableness. So survivors who went through these relationships have a high score on the agreeable personality trait, and the other one is conscientiousness. Now, in a little nutshell, what this means is agreeableness is a trait that we think.

Makes you vulnerable to getting into the relationship in the first place. And what an agreeable person is, is really, you're a really nice person, so you tend to be very kind, generous, very flexible, forgiving. You can overlook red flags. You can forgive bad behavior. Time and time again, you can be more of an optimist.

You're a nice person and you're easygoing and have a ton of empathy or compassion, and so you could see how this might cloud your vision when you are dealing with a narcissistic, abusive partner. Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, because I always say, I always say, this is the individual that you'd actually wanna hire. It's the, it's the individual.

You wanna move in next door as your neighbor. They're, they're, you know, they're gonna be easy to get along with. It's what makes you a good team player. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes. Yes. . And this is what gets me on this, is like when you look at survivors, you know, it's very common for people to have this, this trait. And we're getting.

Stigmatized and like you looked at like, we're bad or something because of this, because of this idea of codependency. So, you know, I like, these are good traits, but they can be very dangerous when it comes to dealing with predatory partners like this. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. In fact, I struggle even with the word codependency.

To me it's just. I see it more as a fight or flight. It's a fawning response. Yeah. When you, you know, when you're in a place of stress, it's, you know, the easiest way out of it for some of us is just to go along Exactly. Placate, you know, submit a little bit. Right. And, you know, it makes things go better. But you're right, it's, it's dangerous with this group because the opposite side is their antagonism.

So it's almost the yin and yang. Yes. You can see how that, that's a nice lock. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes, yes. And that's a good point. And they, you know, if you look at personality sources like narcissism score on the opposite with the, the personality traits, then people that are usually the ones being victimized by them, right?

So like they have high degrees of neuroticism, for example, which is more of like an anxiety type of. Personality trait, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I'm sure they're high on antagonism and they're also, they're low when it comes to conscientiousness. I'm absolutely positive. They're low. Yeah. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes, exactly. And if anybody wants to know what their personality traits are, by the way, just Google.

The big five personality traits, and you can take free quizzes online. It's super easy to see, you know, just to understand what that means for you. Right. But back to, you know, how does this play out in, in these relationships? So if you're agreeable, it's easy for you to let somebody in. And by the way. They prey on people with this trait because they want somebody who is agreeable and forgiving and is always gonna be kind and nice and generous to them.

So it's not that most of them are out, like, I'm gonna look for somebody with the agreeable personality trait, but it's like a. A puzzle piece where the two of you fit very well together because the narcissist needs that and you are willing to overlook all of the horrible behaviors that they have. And it comes together like ugh, in a bad way.

It does. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It does. And I also have noticed is that that. The agreeable nature, and I, I am high on, not, not super high, but I'm high on agreeable, my vulnerability conscientiousness. I'm almost maxed out on that trait, which I hate. I I love it, but I hate it. It's one of those, and I have a, yeah, very weird relationship with that trait of myself.

But what I've noticed about Agreeability is that the believe in change. Yes. We as a society believe in the PO possibility and the capability of change, but agreeable people really believe in that because they typically are quite adaptable. So they assume everybody else is adaptable as well. Don't, yes, and they don't know that there actually is not that much adaptability in the average person.

There's more rigidity than we'd like to think. And I know in my toxic relationship, that was the one thing that narcissistic person played off of, is that he kept convincing me he was working to change. When there's actually Dr. Simon calls it responsibility avoidant behavior. . Was the pro change behavior was actually the manipulation?

Yeah, and I fell for it because I believed in change. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Exactly. Well, it's like we project our goodness, our optimism onto them. So it is, it's so hard to understand the way that they think because it is so opposite of us. And that's what gets us into trouble, like you're saying. Yeah, and I spend such a great deal of my time as a therapist trying to help people understand that.

That you cannot trust what a narcissist or a psychopath is doing behind the scenes. They don't see things in the way that we do. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I know. I even compare it to, it's like you see the world as round. They see the world as flat. Yes. It, the landmarks don't even look the same. Yes. There's a complete different framework and interpretation to everything that's being done.

Exactly. And for most people, it's very hard to get into that other dimension, to imagine their motives. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about conscientiousness for a minute. Yeah. So I, you know, I'm high on both, so I, I feel you when you're like, I have a kind of a love hate relationship with conscientiousness and 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

Chelli Pumphrey: Part of it is, is that conscientious people can be kind of type A, you know, like very organized, very efficient, very like. Kind of have to do things by the book sometimes. So there's a high degree of like, you know, goal oriented, success oriented values. You know, you have a lot of high values and integrity and, and sticking to your values.

And the way that conscientiousness works in these relationships is. It's kind of the glue that keeps you stuck longer term for a few reasons. And one reason is it's, you know, if your values are, let's say you married this narcissist and if your value is, well, we stay together, you know, through till death to us apart.

I'm not gonna just leave my partner. I'm not gonna give up on my partner, you know? Or like when you are being gaslit every day of your life and you start to believe that you're the problem and then you add that to your conscientiousness where I'm the problem I should, you know, I, I should be the one fixing this.

I shouldn't leave. You know, it's, it, there can be this really complex web of how we get stuck in it. And, you know, conscientiousness is a lot about. Kind of our self concept and how we wanna be in relationships and just in the world in general. And so there's a lot around that that makes it hard to leave.

The other part, and this is really after you've been in a relationship longer term and have had more severe abuse over time, is that we start to develop cognitive dissonance. Well, let me say cognitive dissonance. I know you've talked about it. Is this confusion over is this person good or bad, or is this relationship abusive or healthy?

Should I stay or should I go? It's this. Paralyzing loop of indecision and anxiety where you feel like you need to make a decision about something, but you can never reach the decision essentially because you're getting this Jekyll and Hyde experience from this. Person who's abusing you. So what happens over time is, is cognitive dissonance develops in these relationships.

In the early stage, it's cognitive dissonance about the partner. You know, is he good or bad? Is he abusing? Is he kind or cruel? The next stage is about the relationship. It is, is it abusive or is this my soulmate relationship? The third stage is about ourselves, and that's like. I, so, for example, my cognitive dissonance in this way was, I am would never let a man abuse me.

I'm a feminist, I'm a therapist who works with this. Why have I stayed? Why can't I leave? And it's like you start to have confusion about who you are as a person and what your values are. And it can be very paralyzing. And this is actually where cognitive dissonance, we say heal, you know, it develops in that order and it heals in that order.

So making peace with ourselves and healing the trauma of why did I. Quote unquote, allow this in some way. Mm. Why didn't I leave sooner when I saw these red flags? That's the part that is tied up in conscientiousness and is really hard to heal. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I see conscientiousness. It hit me when I was listening to you define it is 'cause I usually am the one trying to define it for other people.

So it was really great to hear somebody else say these things was, it's actually to me what lines with my authenticity. Yes. I really value being that I'm up like a piece of wood, that if you scratch me, it doesn't matter how deep you go, you're gonna get the same qualities that I am, who I say that I am.

Yeah. And what again, just like with, with agreeableness, actually the truth is, is the accurate thing to say about those with cluster B personalities is there is not authenticity. It's all, it's all image management, it's all show, and you're seeing a veneer. But they love that because that then makes us.

Predictable. And it's also very powerful to yield because it's a, it's a great tool. Yes. 'cause you know this, they can bank on our commitment and bank on our. The persistence of the traits in us in order to then predict our behavior, we become very predictable as a result of that. I know for me, the cognitive dissonance was so destructive.

Everything was horrible about that relationship. The betrayal was super deep. Gut wrench. Devastating. I mean, gave me nightmares when I even like trying to ponder what I just stepped into, and I don't know how much you know my story, but he was living a secret double life and had multiple relationships go ongoing at the same time all the way through the relationship.

Basically, my marriage was a con. He'd married me for the life insurance from my late husband's estate. So it was sip. It was the whole thing was a scam. Yeah. Now I'm, I know that, that he had set me up and was targeting, he even told me in the first day he was targeting widows, and I thought he was just saying as a therapist, I thought, oh, he is trying to understand me in my part.

Like again, there's the, there's the suite, you know, naive perspective. I didn't hear that. He was announcing that this was his patsy type was a widow, that he was actually a psychopath looking for a type. But anyway, so. But the bind that I found myself in near the end with that cognitive dissonance was, again, like yourself, how could I, as a therapist here, here's how it played out in two ways.

How could I be so idiotic to have gotten in this relationship . That now I can't extricate myself out of because I'm so confused about what's true. And the other piece is. If I say I believe in change and I've spent my entire life about helping people change, how can I walk out on somebody who says they've never worked harder?

You see how like, like both are playing at the same time. It's, I couldn't get to the level of seeing the truth. This person is using me. They're manipulating me. This is exploitation. This is not, I mean, all of that is just garbage. I, it was, but it took, it took some devastating. Revelations for me to sort of get to the place of saying I'm done and that I deserve more and better.

But you're right. And the healing has also has been grappling with that dichotomy. Yes. Like how did I get into that? 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes. That right there, I mean. You just said it. I'm like, yes. Very similar feelings as therapists especially, but it, yeah. You know, it doesn't matter if you're not a therapist. 'cause I think the way that we can share this is parallel to how everybody Yeah.

In these situations, you know, experiences, just different details. Um, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: you said something that's super powerful that made sense to me. Just another click that I had . Was a lot of, uh, 'cause I work with a members in, a member, a private membership, but I also work with people on online group coaching.

And what I've noticed is that there's almost like, it's not actually literally agoraphobia, but there's this. Form of, of like our world, the, the survivor's world interactions with the world has gotten smaller, that we've shrunk our interactions. Yes, we don't like to do new things. We don't like to meet new people.

We don't tend to include new friends. We we're reluctant maybe even to date. And I think it's back to this cognitive distance stage, the last part, which is how could I have gotten myself into that? I betrayed myself, so now I don't really trust myself. . Because I'm afraid I'm gonna do it again. And so that's just my thought.

I wonder what you think of that, that we literally like shrink our worlds down to keep it to what we know so that we can keep it ourselves safer. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yeah. I mean, I think that's. Very accurate, but there's also some research from Sandra and Perdue's work that might speak to that. So there was a third trait of harm avoidance depending on which personality testing you look at, openness or harm avoidance.

So. One thing they saw was that often survivors come in with high degrees of openness or low harm avoidance, which means you're, you're more open and curious and you, you might be a little more adventurous or a risk taker and a little more free in the way you do things. But because of the trauma. We believe and the isolation that is, you know, that happens when you're being abused.

And then this part that you're talking about right here, the shame, the cognitive dissonance within ourselves at the end of it. Or you know, as things progress, we become very high in harm avoidance and low and openness. So we become afraid to take risks, afraid to be curious, like we lose this part of ourselves from the trauma.

And what you said. So there, there is some evidence to show that as well. Um, that's fascinating. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Yeah. So you said that you, your work has been more an attachment and I know that's another big fascinating area. So how does that weave into impact what's happening in these relationships? 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yeah, I, I think attachment is huge.

I mean, that's always been a big focus of mine as a, as a therapist. And what I have seen, I mean this, I'm gonna just do the, a brief synopsis of attachment. 'cause that's just a whole other conversation is, you know, it is, but. Essentially there's, uh, you know, a secure attachment is where we have a healthy attachment.

We believe relationships are safe. We had our needs met in loving, safe ways as children. Anxious attachment is where we had kind of hot and cold parenting where sometimes our needs are met. Sometimes they're not so much. And what we crave with anxious attachment or what we fear is a fear of abandonment.

So we. Crave closeness to whoever our attachment figure is, which might have been mom or dad or caregiver, and then it transfers into our relationships. Avoid an attachment, we don't get our needs met well at all. We kind of shut down and go inward for protection, and it's better to rely on ourselves and we learn people are not trustworthy.

So as adults, very. Commitment, phobic very, you know, struggle with feeling engulfed by relationships and intimacy so they can pull away. There's also a fourth form of disorganized attachment where we live in a very scary or traumatic environment where you can kind of, on the surface look a little bit avoidant at times, look a little bit anxious at times, but really it's a, when I reach out, people feel unsafe and I freeze.

And in. In fear of attaching. So that is my hopefully one minute or two minute synopsis of attachment. So in my work, what I have seen is the majority of of women come either into the relationship with an anxious attachment or they leave with one. . Also, disorganized seems to be in there too. So I started doing research on this to figure it out.

Well. You can't find research on narcissistic abuse or right pathological love abuse, but you can find some research on intimate partner violence and attachment. So it did confirm that they do see that people with anxious attachments. Have a higher degree of vulnerability to getting into these abusive relationships and that they have, that's the, the attachment style that is more common at the end of these relationships.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Interesting. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I did know attachment styles are highly fluid, they're always changing and grow, or, because in fact, I was a part of a research study for an attachment theory, and it was a longitudinal study over. It was two years. Mm. And they measured every six weeks. Um, pers my personality traits. So they were looking at the big five.

Yeah. That was one of the tests I constantly took. And then they were asking me key questions about the key people in my life. Now the interesting thing is that was in the window where my, uh. Late husband had just passed away. Mm. So I was in that big transition of trying to sort out my life, like who is in my life, who is going to be in my life and what, 'cause when that happened, everything, it shifted everything.

I mean, my social world support system changed my work relationship with my self change. I mean, everything changed. Of course. Yeah. So. Yeah, it was fascinating 'cause what it did was over that period of time, you could see literally it move. Like I might be withdrawn from a key person in my life and my family, but I might get really close to a friend and be very secure.

But you could literally watch those metrics move depending on how that relationship was playing out. So it's fascinating to hear that victims' sense of connectedness changes based on that. That trauma, that betrayal that they've experienced in that relationship. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Right. Yeah. Interesting. And I think there's a lot of things that I, please stop me if I go too far in depth on this, 'cause I, this is where I can get a little muddy and go down some rabbit holes, but with anxious attachment in particular, I believe this is part of what we see as a trauma bond and cognitive dissonance as well.

So. One of the important things to remember about anxious attachment, I kind of said this before, is that proximity trumps safety. So being close to your attachment figure AKA, your partner is more important than feeling safe. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 'cause lately I've been saying, it's so wild you say this, Chelli. 'cause lately my statement has been I need to stop prioritizing relationships.

Yes. Over personal safety. Yes. Which is exactly what you're saying, right? You're saying that we, we, because we all know that this is a key piece in gaslighting and Dr. Robin Stern talks about this a lot for gaslighting to work. You have to feel the threat of the disconnection and then you willingly give up your perception in the sake of the relationship.

Exactly. 'cause the, the disconnection is being threatened. I'm gonna pull away if you don't buy my interpretation. So we go ahead and submit to it even though we know there's something kind of wonky about it, or it makes us feel really crappy about ourselves. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Exactly. Exactly. You know what happens, like, and anybody that doesn't have a secure attachment, well, it depends on how, which your, what your style is, but usually anxiously attached people will feel such like it's a body reaction.

It it's, you know, to me it's, it's like a, it's part of your nervous system. It's part of a fight or flight type of response when your attachment system is activated, and if you are feeling the fear of abandonment. Abandonment can be real or it can be perceived. So some of the things that happens that can kick that off, that fear of abandonment with an abusive partner is a disagreement.

Yeah. You say the, you know, the soup is too hot and they say, no, it's lukewarm. Yeah, that can trigger you. Like it could be some, something so benign, but the silent treatment a huge, horrible, you know, argument. All these things keep you constantly triggered. Yeah. And so what happens is the moment you feel them pull away.

What there are these, these strategies we call hyper activating strategies with anxious attachment that come on board that do all of this kind of subconscious work to make you hold onto this person. You don't wanna lose. You idealize them. And by the way, what do narcissists love? They love to be idealized.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, I know. 

Chelli Pumphrey: So you idealize them while you simultaneously devalue yourself. And what do narcissists do? They devalue you. So we feel crappy and we start to think, I won't find anybody else. Nobody will love me. I'm not good enough. This is the only person that's gonna love me. Like all these mind games that we kind of play and it, it kind of just artfully combines with all the abuse we're experiencing and it'll make you not be able to think about anything else.

You might feel like you don't have an appetite, you can't sleep, you're anxious and tell there's a reconnection with your partner. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. Right. Exactly. 

Chelli Pumphrey: The love, you know, the highs and lows, the, the cycle of abuse where we have an abusive moment and then we have calm and we go back into it. That is like the glue that creates this trauma bond with this kind of attachment stuff.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 'cause what you just said is basically when we reconnect, it's actually serves as sort of a regulation. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes. We 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: feel soothed. Exactly. Even though yo, she, because 

Chelli Pumphrey: proximity trumps safety. Yeah, it's Isn't that scary? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It is because it's really what we're saying, and this is, I hope people are hearing this in the right way.

None of us are saying this is a conscious process. Yes. This is all unconscious. This is the way our hard wiring is actually. Being weaponized in a way Yes. Against us, you know? 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yes. And, and I, I appreciate you just re reminding people of that, like, this is not your fault. Right. This is how, you know, whether you brought it in from childhood or it started to develop because of the relationship.

This is trauma. This is wired into our biology. It is not conscious. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's why things like that Stockholm hostage situation happened. Exactly is, I was just listening to someone talk about that, where they actually showed care for the hostages. Like concerned that they were cold and made sure they were warm enough.

Exactly. Even though they were the ones that took them in as captives and holding them, you know, at maybe even at guns, with guns, but they're the ones then because of that care and concern, they got bonded to these individuals so that they were then that, so the hostages started to promote and advocate for their own captors.

Right. You know, this is something that, like I said, it's a, it's a psychological process. It's being. It's being activated and then used in the benefit of the one who's being abusive. Yes, exactly. It's, yeah. Isn't it just mind blowing? It really is. Yeah. Back to what we haven't really talked about, and I know our time is really short, and you and I could talk forever about this.

I could tell is that this is why it's so hard to leave. Yes. It really activates the fear of. We're actually like, in a way, stepping into our own dysregulation. If I leave and I can't have that connection, I've gotta face all the things. This relationship stirs up in me, all the unconscious painful pieces, as well as the grief of the relationship, as well as even our hopes and dreams that we had about the relationship.

I mean, it's so much that gets. Dragged in. That makes it really hard to leave. 

Chelli Pumphrey: Exactly. It is. Think Many of us go through these periods where we almost experience gaslighting and a lack of support from our family or friends who don't understand, and they'll say, well, why don't you just leave? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And.

Chelli Pumphrey: It's impo, it can feel impossible to do it because there is so much trauma that has occurred and we, you know, we're just talking about the personality traits and the attachment piece here. We haven't even, I mean, that's all part of the trauma, but we haven't even touched on the actual. PTSD type of stuff that comes into these relationships as well, right?

But these two things between the personality traits and the attachment activations can make it feel like you're cutting off your arm to leave. Like people will not understand it unless they've been in it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I, it, it took so much. Actually, he left and I needed him to leave. Yeah. And I, I don't know if I, I mean, I tried once and then it.

Didn't work. You know, he'd come back and I di couldn't say no. So I really needed him to discard me, right. For it to be a per which, and I saw the moment coming and I knew he wouldn't stick around 'cause he doesn't have the maturity to be able to handle my, I don't know if you know, my son was diagnosed with leukemia at the end of the relationship.

And so it, it brought me home, which is great 'cause I was out of the country. Which I needed to be back in the country around family to have stability and safety and even a language, you know, shared language. I was so at a disadvantage in the other country. . But I knew that the demand, because my late husband died of cancer.

I knew I was stepping into and I knew there's this guy had not the bandwidth to do what was about to be required of close family members. And literally within, you know, between that and then finding out more about the level of betrayals that were happening. Yeah. He was gone within two weeks. He was gone and it was like, oh, you know, right.

Thank, thank you. Right. I needed this, I needed this ending to come. So when people tell me they, I mean, I, I don't know how many people say this is a hundredth time, this is the thousandth time. I, I get it, I get it. It, I, I don't know if I could have honestly heading not been the one to do it. 

Chelli Pumphrey: And having that discard even for you, you know, there's a sense of relief there.

But then even with the discard, I mean, we all know how painful and confusing that is too, because everything gets activated. I mean, sometimes it is the thing you need to leave, but it. It doesn't mean that it comes easily when we're digesting it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No, no. I looked really crazy. If you look at my text messages between him, sure.

You would think, what is going, you'd still see the cognitive visiting dissonance going, oh yes, the back forth. I want you, I don't want you. I want you. I don't, I mean . You, you can see it's clear. I look, I looked utterly crazy. Yeah. In that period of time. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Let's jump over to the podcast extra.

I have an interesting question. I'm gonna hand head in a little slightly different direction because this topic of attachment disorder comes up a lot when it comes to narcissists and other personality disorders. So let's talk about what their attachment style looks like and in what degree that plays a part of their disorder on the podcast extra.

But how can people find out more about you and what you're up to? 

Chelli Pumphrey: Yeah. Thank you. This has just been such a amazing, like, like you said, we could talk for hours. The easiest way to learn about me is to go to my website or my Instagram account, which is ChelliPumphrey.com is my website, and I hopefully you.

I'm sure it'll be posted 'cause my name, it will be starts with a C. It's hard to spell. So ChelliPumphrey.com or Chelli Pumphrey coaching on Instagram and my book Insight is 2020. How to Trust Yourself to Protect Yourself from narcissistic abuse and toxic relationships. That's a mouthful, can be found on Amazon and Audible.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I'll make sure to also put all those links at the bottom. So thank you so much for joining me today. I definitely want you in again, so please just know that we're gonna invite you back. Awesome. I'd love to continue conversation.

Chelli Pumphrey: Same. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this week's. Episode, are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club at kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.