When Men Say They’ve Been Abused: A Conversation with Josh from The Derelict Podcast

Disclaimer: This interview features perspectives from a male divorce coach navigating toxic dynamics. While some views expressed differ from those of trauma-informed psychology, I found it valuable to explore these tensions in real time. Please listen with care, and note that I challenge certain assumptions as we go. 

This week, I sit down with Josh Tomeoni, a divorce coach who shares his story of what he describes as abuse within his long-term marriage. Josh opens up about the male experience of toxic relationships, why so many men don’t recognize emotional abuse, and how cultural expectations of masculinity shape their response to conflict and vulnerability.

Podcast Extra Exclusive Interview

Find it here in the exclusive interview and weekly newsletter: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

More About the Podcast Extra Interview

What happens when a man says he’s been emotionally abused?

In this exclusive interview, Josh explores how some men frame abuse differently—and what that reveals about cultural conditioning.

Get immediate access to this extended conversation—and hear where I draw the line between “toxic” dynamics and true abuse.

👉 Join today: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

MORE ABOUT JOSH:

The Derelict Podcast

Instagram

Stay in Touch With Dr. Kerry!

• Youtube
• Instagram
• TikTok
• Facebook

More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. 

In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Transcript

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What did most men miss when it comes to seeing that they're in a toxic relationship? Well, to answer that question, Josh Tomeoni of the Derelict podcast joins me to talk about the male perspective of an abusive relationship.

I am excited to have Josh Tomeoni join me today, and thank you so much for reaching out. I love the fact that you're in this space because there's not enough men describing their experiences of destructive pathological relationships. So if you wouldn't mind, kind of tell me how you got where you are and, what we really don't understand about the male experience of pathological love relationships. 

Josh Tomeoni: It's a loaded question. I love it. It's a good way to start the podcast. Absolutely. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: Okay, so I'll try to answer this in two stages. So,

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: okay.

Josh Tomeoni: First, I'll, be brief about who I am. So I'm a middle aged, divorced dad of three kids, and I got divorced in my mid thirties.

I'm now in my low forties, and I was married for a very long time. To a woman that I met her when I was 18. We started dating when I was 19. We got married when I was 22, 2 months after I graduated college. She was a couple years older. So I didn't really have a whole lot of experience honestly, of dating or knowing women before that.

I mean, I did a little bit in high school and at the very beginning of college, but it was, pretty, pretty new. I was pretty naive in a lot of ways. So as is true with maybe everybody else that gets married at 22, of course I knew everything about getting married and how to keep a great relationship.

Clearly it worked out for me, so all that being said. Why do I bring that up? Well, the reason I bring that up is because I was in, what I would say is was actually a very toxic marriage for a very long time, and I had no clue. It was actually the exact opposite. I thought that our marriage was the marriage that other couples looked at and said, wow, look at them.

The ego with that, right? Wow. Look at them. They really have it figured out. They can communicate well. I was a communication major in college, so of course I can communicate well, right? They could communicate well, you know, like the sexual relationship was decent. the financial, the physical, like all of it seemed pretty decent.

Then it came out that it wasn't decent, it was toxic. We end up getting divorced and full circle. Now I actually work with men that are going through divorce that are dealing with difficult relationships and transitioning through them. Because what I realized is I looked out over the last couple of years and said, where's all the guys helping guys get through divorce?

And then I realized there isn't a market for that. There is no one, there aren't any divorce coaches. I just. Don't ever see them. There are life coaches and maybe they help people with divorce. There are attorneys, there are therapists, but there aren't any divorce coaches. So what's the difference? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, interesting.

Josh Tomeoni: Well, we'll talk about that in a second, but let me, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: okay. 

Josh Tomeoni: Answer your other question first. 'cause I don't wanna just keep babbling on about the first thing. Your other question was something to the effect of the, let's say supposed abuse or the male experience in either a narcissistic relationship or, you know, we were briefly talking about this before the call.

I don't love throwing 'em around the word narcissist, just because I feel like our society throws around all the time. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: So I guess I, I'll start with my opinion in that we all have narcissistic tendencies. So what is a narcissistic tendency? It's a tendency for me to care primarily about myself, Irregardless of what happens to you, irregardless of what happens to somebody else, or to actually manipulate you, to get you to do what I want you to do.

So, I don't know about you, but I've done that before. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah,

Josh Tomeoni: we all have, right, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: right. Exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: But I think some people have more narcissistic tendencies than others, so in other words, they do that far more often than other people do that. I would say the majority of the population, we might do it a few times and be realize we've made a mistake.

Go apologize, make an amends, move on with our life. that would be me. That's probably you. That's probably most people, right? And then there's a few people that just are blind to it and they just keep doing it. So I would say that I was in a, I've been in a few relationships now with women like that.

So the first thing that I would say is before I throw anyone under the bus, I also attracted that energy to myself. I take full responsibility for being in that relationship in the first place because if I didn't attract that energy, I wouldn't have attracted that woman and I wouldn't have been in a relationship with that woman.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's very hard for people to hear that. I know that those listening would probably say, yeah, but I didn't know that I was, or I wasn't trying to. Or if we lived in a more humane world, then this wouldn't even be an issue in it, which I think all of those things are very true. 

Josh Tomeoni: I agree. I agree with all of those things.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: And it doesn't mean it had to be intentional. It doesn't have to mean that you like went out hunting for narcissists. Like that's 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, exactly. Please take the partner up with me. I want to take it. 

Josh Tomeoni: Yeah, it's the same, like I have a friend that I was just talking to the other day and, she's one of those people that's like, well, all guys are like this, and why are all guys like this?

And all guys are like this, and all guys are like this, but I'm looking for this. I'm like, well, but if you keep saying all guys are x, fill in the blank, you're going to keep attracting those guys. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: Or you're only gonna see those attributes in the guys that you're talking to. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. It's like ever I've ever noticed that when you go to buy a car and you looking at a new type, maybe a new model that you've never had or a new, like a make and model, and you suddenly, you see them everywhere because you're looking for them.

Then you suddenly see them. We, it's the confirmation bias is what we're experiencing.

Josh Tomeoni: A hundred, percent. So I have a 2020 Navy green Toyota Forerunner SRD Pro, which is one of the, if not the most rare Toyota forerunners. Now that's not saying a whole lot 'cause Forerunners are very popular, but this specific model with this specific color is the most rare forerunner that they make yet I see them all the time because I have one.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: And I'm a lookout for it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Josh Tomeoni: And frankly, when I bought it, there were two in the entire country that were for sale. So there's not a lot out there. But for some reason I keep seeing them. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That wild. 

Josh Tomeoni: That's I trained my brain to see them. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: There's a lot more white forerunners, black Forerunners, gray forerunners.

I don't even notice 'em. I only notice the green ones. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's fascinating. Yeah.

Josh Tomeoni: Because where your focus goes, your energy flows. That's it.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. So here you have this incredible relationship that you think that other people look at you and say how lucky you are. what started to make you wake up and realize that there was something inherently, deeply wrong?

Josh Tomeoni: I wish that I could tell you that I did wake up. I didn't. So my story is, and this is, this kind of goes to the question of men specifically. 'cause I feel like we hear a lot more about women leaving toxic relationships. We don't hear a whole lot about men leaving toxic relationships and, I think there's a couple reasons for that.

Number one is I think that the term abuse gets used a lot as well. Just like the term narcissist gets used a lot. The term abuse is kind of hard to define. It's, kind of like in the eye of the beholder, right? Like, I don't know, was that abuse? Like you, you hear people walking around saying, well, I was abused.

Well, how so? Like obviously somebody punches you in the face. Yeah, clearly that's abuse, but I, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: that's fascinating. 

Josh Tomeoni: But people use abuse all the time. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. do you mind if I stop on that? 

Josh Tomeoni: Sure. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: 'cause I think that's a really important point that you're making. 

Josh Tomeoni: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: 'cause to me it's not a squishy term.

I mean, that's what I'm hearing kind of say. This is a squishy term. It's not a squishy term in my opinion. This is how I see it and I, and obviously I see it through the eyes of a clinical psychologist, and that is, it's whenever we diminish the value of another individual. In service of ourselves. Now, sometimes that happens for things that outside our control.

Like if I'm sick, I'm going to expect you to sort of step up and help. hopefully, if you care. And at that point, I can't really appreciate how that costs you. And is that abuse? No, because it's outside my control. I'm not intentionally trying to exploit you, but I am going to lead into you for your emotional labor.

But I think it's when we fail to really appreciate and respect and hold space for another person's dreams, sense of being their needs, their wishes. It's when all that happens is. Our preoccupation and our excessive focus on ourself, and we see them as a means to serve ourselves exclusively. 

Josh Tomeoni: Now, think.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Think. That's how I kind of view it. 

Josh Tomeoni: Yeah. 

Even the way you describe it and, I don't disagree with the way you describe it, but the way you described it would mean if I were just looking at myself, I abuse people then every day. Because I have moments of what you just said every day where I get selfish and I'm only focused on myself, and I, you know, like, forget you.

I need to focus on myself right now. I mean, even the idea of I need to go do something for myself, and I'm like, you're not worth it right now because I'm worth more. Would f it seems like would fall into that definition. That's why I feel like it's squishy. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's interesting, but are you exploiting that individual in the sense that you're diminishing them or taking something away from them?

Yes. You're saying do they have a right to my time and attention? That's what I hear you saying, that I'm shifting my focus from a us focus to a me focus. I don't see that as abusive, but what I do see is say that this individual came to you and said, I'm having a really rough day, will say that you have kids at home that are five and six, there's nobody home.

And you're like, yeah, dad needs some time to myself. I'm gonna go fish. Good luck kids. I hope that goes well tonight. You feeding yourselves. I mean, to me that would be, that shift of focus is hurtful because now you've impacted their, wellbeing. 

Josh Tomeoni: Yeah. I, just think it's still, like when you say diminished, like who defines that?

I mean, that's still an opinion. Whether I've diminished somebody or not. So that still feels squishy to me. It still feels, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: yeah, I can see how 

Josh Tomeoni: it's subjective, correct. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Subjective. You could actually, there's times where somebody would say something that's comes across as a jab, and was it a jab? Did they mean it as a jab?

It could be by the one that hears it says, yes it was. And the one that said that. Yeah, but that wasn't my heart. it's, yeah. I, hear your point. 

Josh Tomeoni: Here's a good example. It would be like somebody with preferred pronouns, I think is a good example. And here's the reason. I mean that if I come to you and I just call you a her Let's say before I even know what your preferred pronouns are or whatever, and they're not her. Right. You could feel diminished by that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: If your preferred pronoun is they as an example. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. But if I've said that. 10 times to you and you outright refuse. 

Josh Tomeoni: Then I would say that there's some people that would say, that's not me diminishing you. And there are other people that would say, that is me diminishing you. I still think it's subjective. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Okay, so where is the line then, 

Josh Tomeoni: Just because you're telling me to tell you something or to call you something doesn't mean I have to do it. Pro, pronouns is a tricky one because 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: it is a tricky, 

Josh Tomeoni: there's a lot of energy around it right now.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: There is a lot of energy, 

Josh Tomeoni: but if we use something else, right? If you came to me and you say, well, you have to call me a psychologist, but you're a psychiatrist. Well, no, I don't, but is that diminishing you, even though I'm saying something that's not actually acting? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No. That I would see that as my exploitation of you.

Josh Tomeoni: Fair enough. But that's why I see it's, it just feels elusive. I guess here's maybe one other way that I'll say it is that abuse and trauma are two words that are used a lot. And I think what's maybe more important than defining the terms is talking about people's experience with the terms, because that's more where we're going with this because we could 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Sure. Exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: We could kind of figure this out all day long, but we don't have the time for it. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: But I think if we were to just say, okay, let's just assume for a moment that they're subjective, abuse and trauma. Because some people will see something as abuse and trauma and some others won't. Right? I mean, again, somebody could see them being called the wrong pronoun, a trauma versus somebody else who only sees it a trauma if they're drowning and can't like get out of the water. Like those are two very different traumas, but everybody is subjective on what they think trauma is or how it affects them.

You see this when people deal with their trauma versus not deal with their trauma. You see this all the time in practice, right? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Sure.

Josh Tomeoni: As somebody who deals with their quote, trauma. Again, let's just say it is a trauma. 'cause they're calling it that, but then they deal with it and they move forward. It's not affecting them anymore, whereas other people are still living in a trauma that affected them 30 years ago and they're not able to move forward with it.

So why do I mention all this? Well, it's to get back to your original question. Why I think a lot of men stay in toxic relationships, especially men, is that most men are not educated. They don't have the planning, they don't have the support, they don't have the knowledge to be able to realize when things are emotionally unstable or mentally unstable or spiritually unstable for them.

Because we are told as men ever since we're little boys, for the most part, we're told, look, you have to pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Get up and try again. Work harder, push harder. Go on social media and see what guys are told. If they're saying, do this to grow your business, do this to get six pack abs.

Is there any other advice for men? Pretty much not. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No. Not really. No. 

Josh Tomeoni: That's pretty much it. It's like, well, as long as you have a fit body and a good bank account, you're good to go. Really? Is that the entire human experience as a man? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No. In fact, I get worried because to me that is a very empty, meaningless life.

There's not real connection there, and there's a great vulnerability there because that then means you're not tuned into the rest of the way things are happening and there's so much else going on around you than that.

Josh Tomeoni: So let's take this man, then let's just assume that they're, the peak of man can be on social media, so they have a great body and they have a great business and they're making good money.

Well, is there any way that person could be in a toxic, abusive relationship? 100%. Oh, yes. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: Because if that's their entire focus, let's say it's not even their entire focus. Excuse me. Let me give them more benefit. Let's say that they really do want to do what's best for their wife. Let's say that they really do want to be a good dad.

They really want to be a good spouse, okay? So they are a good person. I'm not saying this is a bad person. They're a good person. They wanna do what's best. They're trying to make money, they're trying to provide for their family. They're trying to stay in shape so that they're healthy, so that they stay active and do all these things that from the outside, that looks fantastic.

And that's basically where I was. I wasn't like this completely obese loser who was, you know, getting support from everybody else, but not making my own way, doing anything. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right.

Josh Tomeoni: Like I wasn't that guy. I was a financial planner that wore a three piece suit that made good money, that was respected in the community.

That was part of Rotary, that was the youngest president of the Insurance and Financial Association. Like I was the guy that everybody looked at. They're like, well, yeah, you'll be mayor one day. Like, that's just, that's who I was, right? With the beautiful wife in the suburban house with the best school district, with the two kids.

Eventually three kids, right? Like I had that life. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah,

Josh Tomeoni: the nice car, everything else. I was that guy, but I was bankrupt inside. So going back to why do men stay in these relationships is because they don't even realize it a lot of the time. So I'm gonna use a word that you don't like and that's codependent.

And here's how I define codependent. There's different definitions based on what you look at. I really think that, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: which is why I don't like it. 

Josh Tomeoni: Melody Beattie's book, codependent No More is a fantastic one if you are interested in exploring codependency anymore. I think her work on the subject is the best that I've read at least.

But what the way that I describe codependency is that I want you to act and feel a certain way so that I feel a certain way. In other words, I want you to do something to validate me so I feel good inside. So I will manipulate a situation, even though I wouldn't ever use the word manipulate, like I don't think that I'm doing this.

I just want you to be happy. So if you're my spouse and you're upset about something, my number one job is to make sure that you're not upset, to calm you down, to make sure that you're joyful, to make sure that you're happy, to make sure that you're okay with your life, because then, happy wife, happy life, right?

So as long as I make you happy, then I'm good. But it requires you to be good for me to be good. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. 

Josh Tomeoni: That's a very unhealthy combination in a relationship. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes, exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: Because that means I'm not bringing my true self. I'm not bringing my true, authentic, loving, whatever self. I'm also not bringing any of my emotions to the table because they're invalid.

Because the only emotion that's valid is yours. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Okay. 

Josh Tomeoni: So what I think happens with a lot of men is that they aren't getting validated from their spouse. They don't know how to do it themselves. So there, maybe they haven't learned how to do that yet. And by the way, this, there's no judgment here whatsoever when I'm having this conversation.

I didn't learn how to, I didn't start learning how to do this till my mid thirties. So if you're watching this and you're like, oh yeah, that guy knows how to, no, I don't. I'm still learning in my low forties how to do this. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, I didn't start learning this until my late fifties, so there you go. Yeah.

Josh Tomeoni: Perfect. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I'm a psychologist. Yeah, so, 

Josh Tomeoni: so we all, he, here's the thing with timelines, it's like watch any super successful entrepreneur, actor, et cetera. Everyone has a different timeline. Like some people started when they're six. Some people started when they're 60 and it's okay.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: Whatever your timeline is your timeline.

If you're listening or watching this right now and you're 75 years old and you're like, I haven't figured this out yet. Good news. You still have time, so start today. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: So here's the deal. Guys are in these relationships and they're not confident enough in and of themselves just being themselves.

They wanna make sure that their wife is pleased that she's okay, that she's taken care of. Part of our job, I believe, as men, is to protect and to help and to, you know, do like lead in that way. Not in a, you know, like chauvinistic lording sort of way, but just like that is part of our gifting as men. When we don't feel like we can do that because we're stuck in this relationship where it's like, man, I feel like I'm always doing something wrong, or I'm always just like trying to keep the peace, et cetera.

But as long as I keep the peace, everything's okay, and as long as everything's okay, then I'm doing my job because my wife's okay. My kids are okay. That guy would never say he was in an abusive relationship. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: no. They would say they actually had probably everything that anybody would ever want, which is what you said at the start, 

Josh Tomeoni: which is what I said.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: But they don't realize what's actually happening behind the scenes. The emotional abuse, the spiritual abuse, the stuff when the spouse is manipulating them in a certain way for them to do certain things. 'cause they've figured out that's how their spouse works. And I'm not saying every spouse is like this.

I'm just saying the ones that are in toxic relationships. So this often happens and the man. Automatically invalidates himself. And then he gets that same invalidation from everywhere he looks because if he goes on social media, you don't see men validating that experience in men. You see men saying, stand the F up, get better, get back on the horse, become a bet. You know, be stronger, get better abs, get stronger muscles, whatever. Like you don't see them validating the fact of like, this is emotional abuse. This is spiritual abuse. You need to figure this out. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So go back to the moment of you invalidating yourself. So can you give an example of how that would show up?

How that showed up for you? 

Josh Tomeoni: Sure. I would, worst case scenario, you shame yourself. Best case scenario, you're feeling guilty for something you shouldn't feel guilty over. So I get an argument with my wife and then I'm feeling guilty and like it's all my fault. That argument, well, guess what? Every argument involves two people at least.

So it's not all my fault. It's never all my fault. No argument's ever. 100%, one person's fault. It's because otherwise it wouldn't be an argument Otherwise, it would just be one person yapping at somebody else and the other person literally not doing anything. That's not an argument. So there's always at least 1% the other person's deal.

But I would internalize all of that because I'm like, well, I'm responsible for this. I'm, I need to lead the household. I need to, you know, a lot of that was like my, some of my conservative religious baggage that came up as well. It was like, I need to lead the household. I need to be the man. I need to make sure, instead of just realizing like, no, you're wrong right now.

I don't agree with you. Here's the reasons why. Here's what I think is happening. I would never say that back then, I was too scared. I was too scared that was gonna upset the apple cart. God forbid something like a divorce happened that was 100% against my family of origin story of every marriage that anyone ever got into, you weren't allowed to divorce.

That wasn't a thing. Which goes back to your question, when did you finally realize that? Yeah, I didn't. I let it go too far until this toxicity rose above the surface and she started doing crazy things, and I started doing crazy things. We both started acting out in different ways, which aren't important to the podcast.

If somebody wants to reach out to me directly on an open book, but I don't wanna throw anyone under the bus here. But we both started re reaching out in very, toxic ways until one day. Even though I would say I had plenty of reasons to like call it off, she was the one that actually served papers because we were both at that point where the toxicity was just, it was, you couldn't ignore it anymore.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What struck me by your story is that there was a lot of assumption of role expectations as if it was an evaluation, which then led to you, you feeling like you were failing constantly in the role that you thought you were doing so well at. Here you are trying and you're getting feedback of it's not good enough, 

Josh Tomeoni: which is very common. By the way. The male experience, from my experience, from the men that I coach Is there's a lot of men that just feel like they're doing the work with no appreciation. I mean, part of, not everyone's gonna agree with this next statement, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Part of the male experience is doing things that people are not going to appreciate.

That's part of being a strong man. It just is. And we live in a society right now where everybody's told that everybody should be validating everybody for everything. And frankly, it's just not part of the male experience. Like men are just called to do things that are not gonna be validated. That if you want to have any sort of success in your life, in your body, in your career, in your spiritual life, et cetera, you're gonna have to do things that you are gonna have to validate yourself.

No one else is gonna validate. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: My firm belief, whether you're religious or not, is that there's only two ways to validate yourself, and that is for me to have the most authentic, loving relationship with myself and for me to have the most loving, authentic relationship with my higher power, whatever I call that higher power.

Whether it's higher power, god, universe, whatever. If you are of the belief that you are the highest power in the universe, then you are a narcissist. For the rest of us that aren't. We believe in some sort of higher power. Higher power, universe, God, whatever. We can leave religion out of it. It doesn't matter.

The point is there's something bigger than ourselves and then there's ourselves. That's where 100% of my validation comes from. The moment, it's less than 100%. I'm on the wrong track. That happens to me every single day in my life. Trust me, I wish I was at a hundred percent. I'm not. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's wild. I don't know all the ins and outs of what happened in your relationship.

It's wild. Is listening to you, because my first marriage that ended in death, he passed away from cancer, looked a lot, I mean, we looked really good and we were in a lot of ways functioning pretty well. Now did I feel seen? Yeah. He loved me. Deep, deeply loved me, but he was selfish. And he leaned heavily into my labor and didn't, I mean, he wanted the traditional life. He felt that he deserved that without realizing that it was at the cost of me, you know, so that I was carrying enormous amount of the load and it was burning me out. And I was also tremendously lonely because this person really wasn't authentically showing up as himself.

He was showing up as an incredible provider and a very stable, loyal partner, but he wasn't a confidant and I was deeply looking for that. So I was dying of loneliness in that relationship. Would I have ever left him? No, probably not. Did I had a fulfilling experience as a partner to him? No. No, I didn't.

It would've always left me feeling, I was sad. I cried a lot privately when he wasn't around about what was, so, I listened to you, and I'm not saying there was an abuse in there, but what hurt me, and I know we're kind of moving off of the original topic here, but what hurt me deeply was I kept wishing he could just show up vulnerable and just share who he was with me, but he would say it was too painful. He didn't like to do that. He felt too exposed and uncomfortable. And to me it was like, but you don't know that's where the greatest strength is. Maybe not all women. I'm not saying all women are equally as available. I mean, goodness. My job is listening to people's problems.

I have the capacity not to judge somebody for having problems, but I, he really feel, felt fear about risking that side of himself with me. And thats why we were like, not 

Josh Tomeoni: Well, I, have an insight as to why. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: What? Okay, so what do you think of that? 

Josh Tomeoni: Men do not like to feel vulnerable. They do not wanna be vulnerable.

The subject of vulnerability to a man is get that outta my face, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: which I find sad. 

Josh Tomeoni: I don't. Here's the reason why. I think it's a reframing. I think for women, they can see vulnerability as a superpower. Men see it as a disservice to them. And here's the reason why I believe, vulnerability for a man assumes I have no power.

If I have no power as a man, I'm not a man, therefore, what are you actually seeking with vulnerability? Aren't you seeking authenticity? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. 

Josh Tomeoni: Aren't you seeking somebody to be real with you about their struggles and their emotions and what they're going through and be authentic with you about that experience?

That's what you're looking for, right? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: So as long as it's reframed to a man as being your authentic self. I think it lands a lot better. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, that's interesting. 

Josh Tomeoni: Because that doesn't remove any of my power, but it still accomplishes the same purpose. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Okay, so define power for me for a second because you said if your masculinity is rooted in power, that would've never crossed my mind ever as a woman, I don't see my sense of self is defined in my power at all. 

Josh Tomeoni: Right. 'Cause you're not a man. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. But I don't even know what that means. 

Josh Tomeoni: So what it means is it's not necessarily physical strength, even though physical strength is a part of it and part of the reason, even though I just, you know ragged on the gym bros. So much. I work out every day of my life as well. But it's not because I, you can see me like I'm in shape, but I'm not like a gym bro. Right?

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: But the reason I do it is because it's difficult. It's something that it takes effort. It's something that makes me feel powerful and makes me be able to be like this instead of like this all the time.

And this will crush a man. This will not. So power is confidence. It's calmness, it's courage. It's being centered in oneself. It's being authentically who you are. I don't care if it's a gym bro or if it's a nerd, or if it's a lawyer, or if it's an actor. Doesn't matter. Whoever it is, you are. If you're goofy, if you're serious. Doesn't matter. Power comes when we live authentically ourselves. Now women wouldn't call it power, to your point. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No.

Josh Tomeoni: I've never heard a woman call it power. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No. 

Josh Tomeoni: For a man it is though. So when you say something like vulnerability, that just removes all my power, which removes my manhood, so I'm not interested.

But if you tell me to be authentic, I'm like, hell yeah. I want to be authentic. I wanna be more myself. That's powerful. That to me is engaging. It's encouraging. It's like, yes, I can do that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I am surprised you didn't use the word control in there. I expected con power to also include control. 

Josh Tomeoni: That's because we live in a society where power is equated with toxic behaviors, controlling chauvinistic B, all this bias we hear about toxic masculinity. That's where power most people relate power to. That's not power. That's actually weakness. That's the opposite. That's somebody who's insecure. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. 

Josh Tomeoni: And they're bringing their insecurity out in very evil ways that whether it's man or woman doesn't matter. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Okay. So now we're honing in better on the word abuse. Okay. to me it's the diminishing of another person by exerting control without their permission. 

Josh Tomeoni: Yes, I get that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That to me is abuse. 

Josh Tomeoni: Yeah. That's less squishy. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Okay. 

because Thank you for that clarification. 'cause that really helped me a lot.

That's fascinating. I, and I agree. I think that for me, the healing came when I began to realize that I was the answer to my own problems. 

Josh Tomeoni: A hundred percent. And you might not call that power. I do. And I think most men would as well. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Interesting. 

Josh Tomeoni: Because that's a healthy power. Again, it's not this, it's not this abusive power.

There's different types of power. Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: I'm not doing that in order to control and manipulate you who can't take care of yourself, that would be abuse. To your definition. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: I'm doing it to become the best, most authentic, loving, amazing, courageous version of myself possible.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. What I look, what I figured out when I got out of the second relationship, which was sort of the epitome of worst of the worst, very dangerous predator, is I married the second time, and when I got out of that, I realized what had been done. What I'd done was I prioritized we the we of the us as a way to care for me.

Josh Tomeoni: Right. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And that was completely wrong, that I didn't know that if I was well and brought my best self in a healthy, stable, regulated way, that we were gonna be good too. A hundred percent. And that's the big shift that I'm making now 

Josh Tomeoni: for sure. All and going back to the word control. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: We have very, little control of anything in life.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes. exactly. 

Josh Tomeoni: 'cause any of us could die at any moment. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Right. 

Josh Tomeoni: However, we do have control over a couple things, and I would say the most important thing that we have control over is our thoughts. We can control those. We can shut off bad ones, we can replace them with new ones. There's programming we can do.

It's all scientifically studied. It's proof, right? We can control that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: Which then can allow us to control our actions. That's it. We can't control anybody else. And again, in essence, codependency and narcissism are the same thing because they're both trying to control the other person. They're just doing it in different ways.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: I'm trying to control you as a codependent so that you feel good, so I feel good. I'm trying to control you as a narcissist so that I get what I want, and I don't really care what happens to you. It's, the same thing. It's still for me, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: except I would add the caveat, and by the way, you might wanna also really look into this new word that's popping up a lot more, echoism, which is the opposite of narcissism, which is a person who lives through the identity of another individual for safety, also for the expression of self, which is very, it's, another way to think of codependency, 

Josh Tomeoni: echoism? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: From echo and narcissist 

Josh Tomeoni: echoism. 

Interesting. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: I haven't heard that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. You become an echo of the narcissist.

you're the, you're a reflection of them. but yeah, that what you're saying there, I, when I know that people listening will struggle with that because they're like, but I wasn't doing those behaviors to serve me. I was doing those behaviors to survive. 

Josh Tomeoni: Absolutely. A hundred percent. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, 

Josh Tomeoni: I agree. I was as well.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: Again, we're talking to, you know, recovering codependent over here, so Yes, I agree. And I was doing those to survive as well because I felt like if I didn't do those, I was toast, but was I really? No. 'cause I could have left the relationship at any time. I had the power to do that. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: I wasn't locked in a basement.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, there's where there's kind of where I, maybe I'm making a generalization that's unfair, but that's, I think, to me, a very different mindset of a woman versus a man in the sense that men insist they always have all options at all times. I actually think that, you just said a second ago that we don't have actually have control.

I don't think we always have all our options at all times. I do. Well. Literally, maybe we do, but that other person can certainly make it extremely scary or dangerous for us. 

Josh Tomeoni: A hundred percent. Of course. And it was the same way for me, and it's the same way for men, and it gets looked at differently because in general, men are stronger, have more muscles, et cetera, so they can force a woman to stay somewhere.

Right. So that's 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well right, because 'cause leaving for a woman is the most dangerous time, and that's when most of the, that extremely terrible things start to happen, including possibly losing her own life. 

Josh Tomeoni: So I would agree, but I don't disagree that doesn't happen to men either. It's, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: oh, well, no, I know.

Yeah. Please hear me. I'm not saying that men don't also, aren't physically at, jeopardy. Absolutely. 

Josh Tomeoni: So, I agree. So we gotta be really careful here because we, I wanna make sure that we don't overgeneralize this to the entire population for the very select very small few women that are actually like chained to a basement or are gonna get, they leave a relationship that does exist 100%.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It happens more than you think. You're talking to somebody who is most likely,

Josh Tomeoni: it happens in your experience more than you think because of the fact that you deal with these people. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Maybe I'm just, I'm shocked at more frequently. I know. You're back to thinking it's confirmation bias. 

Josh Tomeoni: Here's what it's what we focus on.

Right. So I've been a financial planner for almost two decades, and I could tell you plenty of things about finances because I've been focusing on them for two decades. That you would, that would be blown away from you, just like you're trying to do with me right now. With who you're working with. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. I have a feeling the comment section on this part of this is gonna be very wild, though 

Josh Tomeoni: It will be. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I wish I had all the stats at my fingertips. I don't, but I know the stats are pretty horrific. And here's, I do have this statistic, which is shocking about the impact of narcissistic abuse. The outcome of PTSD symptoms for narcissistic abuse is extraordinarily, nearly double.

What happens if you are a World War II vet or you know, senior live action? It's higher. Yeah, almost double. 

Josh Tomeoni: Wow. That's crazy. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: 'cause of the erosion of sense of self. That's why I'm saying it's not, there is a lack of freedom because the erosion of self causes you to no longer see those options. You actually become blind to your strength because you've so submitted to the dynamics of the abuse.

Josh Tomeoni: Yes, I agree with you. So here. I wanna make sure something is really clear. I'm not invalidating anyone's experience that is like their life is being threatened or they're worried about being hurt or harmed or anything else. This is not an invalidation of anything. All of my heart and sympathy and empathy goes towards those people.

I've known plenty of those people in my life and I, you know, for my entire life I've been a guy that like wants to protect women that can't protect themselves. Trust me, I get that. And I'm not trying to invalidate that experience at all, and I think there's a couple really important keys here. When someone is a victim, there's two aspects of victimhood. There is, am I a victim because I'm an actual victim? In other words, are the facts actually making me a victim? Right? Like, am I getting abused? Whether it's emotional, spiritual, physical, whatever, right? So that's being a victim. The second aspect of being a victim is are you a victim in your head?

Because there's a lot of people. That have been through a lot of really bad stuff that have come out the other side and use that to actually improve the lives of others. And there's a lot of people that have been through a lot of bad stuff that stay in victimhood the rest of their life and don't help anybody including themselves.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Josh Tomeoni: So my encouragement to somebody who's gone through that is do the hard work to become the person that lives that life where you can help yourself and others on the other side. And that's what I'm trying to do with my life. I know that's what you're trying to do with your life as well. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Absolutely.

Josh Tomeoni: Just in a brief conversation, but then the second thing I would say, which is something that you just referenced, is that it's much easier, I think the reason abuse usually is physical or sexual in nature is it's much more dramatic and it's much easier to be seen. So if a, if there's a news story about this guy punched this woman in the face, or this guy raped this woman that is much more newsworthy, which is just entertainment, that's all news is, that's much more entertaining, more entertainment, newsworthy, than Hey, this woman was silently manipulating this man for the last three years.

Like, that's not a story. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Sure 

Josh Tomeoni: it's boring. So I think that's one of the reasons why. However, here's one way that I see it happening, and I'm not blaming women for this who don't hear this the wrong way, but men are more silent most of the time about the abuse that they're suffering as well. First, they don't even necessarily realize it's happening because they don't call it abuse, like she didn't hit me.

She didn't rape me, therefore I didn't get abused, even if I was abused for years and years and years through manipulative, emotional, spiritual abuse. So first of all, I don't even realize it. Second of all, if I do realize it, I don't know what to do with it. As a guy, we don't, we're not really good about getting a tribe and a community and a bunch of people that we talk to about, like, you, women talk to each other about everything, like all the time.

And I love that. I wish guys were more like that. We aren't. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I do too. 

Josh Tomeoni: Like literally, case in point, buddy just texted me the other day, I have a podcast as well, and he texted, Hey, how's the podcast going? My response, good. Women would never do that. Ne never. First of all, the text probably wouldn't even exist.

'cause you want more details. Second, the good would never suffice, right? Like, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: no.

Josh Tomeoni: Jeff foxworthy has a whole standup about this from like 20 years ago. You should go watch. It's hilarious. But that being said, where does it show up for men? Well, what I would say is that a lot of this abuse is the silent killer.

It's not the obvious killer. But I'll just point out one statistic that I think is one of the saddest statistics that I know of, and that is that the highest rate of is 35 to 50-year-old men. Why is that? I'm in that era of my life right now. It's the peak of our life. We should have our, we usually have our families by now, we have a kind of a little bit of our career figured out.

We're making better money, we're more successful, and it's the time that either people go buy Miatas or Porsches or younger wives or themselves. Why is that? It's because we've silently been dying for years and we don't even realize that we have until one day we wake up and it either goes well or it doesn't.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Here's another interesting thing, the connection between heart disease and anger, that there's a direct connection between the two and yet what kills men the most? Well, heart disease does, so what anger are they sitting on? For all those years that have been silenced that there's no place to go, nothing to do with it, and they are quietly feeling like they are being ground into the ground.

Literally, they're to be annihilated because they're not being seen or validated for all the hard stuff that they do. I agree. We talk a lot about the epidemic of loneliness in men. I think there's an epidemic of men failing to know how to really be emotionally seen and loved and valued. And I love to see that change.

So I'm just so thankful that you're here today and we're talking about this. Let's jump over to the podcast extra and talk about what are the signs that men should be looking for that indicate that there is something maybe inherently really going wrong in this relationship, some practical things that they could be looking for to spot that.

But how can people find you Josh, where should they look for you? 

Josh Tomeoni: Sure. One of the best ways to contact me is through Instagram, because I still message every single person through Instagram. It's not an ea, it's not a va. It's not my team members, it's me. So go to Instagram. I'm josh the derelict.

Derelict is spelled D-E-R-E-L-I-C-T. Okay, so just go to Instagram, Josh, the derelict. Do me a favor, follow me, and then send me a message. If you send me the message coach, I'm happy to have a free quick coaching call with you. If you message me the word ebook, I'm happy to send you my book for free, which is about people going through divorce.

So if you're going through divorce, you've recently gone through a divorce, send me ebook. I'm happy to send you that book as well. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's great. Thank you very, much for bringing this to light. This has been a wonderful conversation. 

Josh Tomeoni: Agreed. Thanks for having me on. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode.

Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as the Toxic Free Relationship club at Kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.