When Your Family Chooses the Narcissist Over You: What Survivors Must Know

Ever felt like you're the problem in your family—even when you're the one being hurt?

This week, Ágatha Peters joins Dr. Kerry to explore how cultural expectations and family loyalty create the perfect conditions for narcissistic abuse to thrive undetected. We discuss why narcissism often goes unnamed in non-Western cultures, how the scapegoat role becomes nearly impossible to escape when the entire community reinforces it, and why leaving isn't just about one relationship—it's about losing your entire world. 

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT 

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MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA INTERVIEW 

🔹 Stuck as the family scapegoat? Wondering how to survive when you can't leave? 

Ágatha reveals the psychological strategies that help you endure when escape isn't an option, why you can't change your role in a narcissistic family system, and how to build your own community within a community that's failed you. 

👉 Get immediate access to this extended interview

MORE ABOUT ÁGATHA PETERS 

• Website: beautifulsunshinetherapy.com  
• Instagram & TikTok: @beautifulsunshinetherapy
• Book: Trapped in Their Script: Reclaim Your Life from Narcissistic Abuse and Cultural Expectations 

ÁGATHA PETERS is a licensed therapist specializing in narcissistic abuse recovery within multicultural contexts. Drawing from both her clinical expertise and personal experience navigating cultural expectations, Ágatha helps clients understand how family loyalty, collectivist values, and cultural identity intersect with narcissistic dynamics—making abuse harder to name, harder to prove, and nearly impossible to escape without losing everything.

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More About Dr. Kerry

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. 

In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.

Break free from narcissistic abuse with ReclaimYou. The app that's like having Dr. Kerry as your personal coach in your pocket 24/7. Get personalized support, healing exercises, and expert guidance whenever you need it. Join the waitlist now and be first to reclaim your life at studio.com/drkerry

Chapters

• 0:00 The Struggles of Leaving a Toxic Relationship witih Agatha Peters
• 3:21 Cultural Perspectives on Narcissism
• 7:32 Impact of Family and Culture on the Development of Self
• 10:30 Narcissism as a Global Problem
• 16:45 Navigating Abuse in a Foreign Country
• 19:51 When You're Abused in Foreign Country
• 25:02 Understanding the Role of the Scapegoat

Transcript

0:00

Woke her up, beating her in the head. I can't have you. Nobody can have you. And I've seen people as far as even go get a PhD, a doctorate, they all these things just to get away from that title. But it is just, they're never enough. The first piece of advice we give to survivors when they tell us that they're in a bad relationship is that they need to leave. Well, today, Agatha Peters is the author of Trapped In Their Script, joins me to talk about why this isn't always possible. She is a Nigerian American who's a psychotherapist here in the United States. And who sees that leaving is not sometimes a victim's possible option. Thank you so much Agatha Peters for joining us today. I am excited about your new book, trapped in their script. Even the title is fascinating. The subtitle is Great. Reclaim Your Life From Narcissistic Parents and Cultural Expectations. How did you get interested in writing this book? Tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, thank you Dr. Kerry for having me. It's such a pleasure. I'm glad we finally connected. Um. So regarding my book, uh, I mean a lot of my clients deal with this on a daily basis, uh, from different cultures. Um, I see clients from West Africa, Asian cultures, uh, middle Eastern, so many, um, and this topic keeps coming up and, uh. How difficult it is to leave when you know there, especially if they're still in the home, how do they still deal with it? Um, a lot of my clients that, uh, struggle with parents that are in, you know, they're living with or that are narcissistic, um, and I've also experienced that on my own. So, um, that would you say, 'cause here's one of the things I noticed when I lived in another culture myself, is that we don't always identify. Illnesses or conditions in the same way. It's sometimes it's framed in a radically different way. Like for example, I've seen cultures will frame anxiety as a sickness. You know, they'll, they'll say they're ill and when they're really nervous. Mm-hmm. So how does narcissism recognized in the different cultures that you've worked with? I don't think it is really, I don't think it is. I, uh. I don't think it is. Oftentimes I have to educate my clients around what they are experiencing, and it all of a sudden makes sense. So I don't tell them, really, I go through a checklist as this, you know, sort of how we would do with, you know, mm-hmm. Um, depression or those kinds of things. Um, this kind of, um, mental health diagnosis. So I go through a checklist and if they, you know, everything is like, oh, yes, yes. Yeah. And they just keep going and all of a sudden they say, well, what's that? What's what, what is that called?'cause that's what's happening. Um, so it's, it's not named in the way that we do in Western culture. And um, yeah. Uh, it's an eyeopener for my clients when they finally get that. Acknowledge. Yeah.'cause here's the thing, I mean, when I didn't know what it was and, and here I'm a clinical psychologist and I knew what narcissistic personality disorder was. Mm-hmm. But it didn't know it had a impact mm-hmm. On me in the relationship. So here I am, I'm just thinking this is a difficult relationship. This is a difficult person not identifying that. It's a, it's making me sick and affecting me. I know that. I just personalized it. So how do you see that get played out? Is that the same thing happening with these individuals? They're personalizing it. Yeah. So it, it, that's why they come to the, it's, it's my fault. I wanna fix it. I wanna, it is me. Yeah. Um, so, and when we start to look more into it, um, it's the person in their life. They show up at home and they can't study. They are nervous, they're anxiety is off the roof. Um, they feel more depressed. They, uh, they cannot. Fail. They, there's just, they walk around eggshells, for lack of better word. They're constantly in fear. Um, and it's almost as though too, they don't wanna believe that that person, especially when it's a parent, right, like that person is not capable of loving them the way they expect love to look like. So that's also, it takes a lot to. Even get to that, even though they check all the lists and all of that things to actually accept it.'cause I'm, I'm sure for you too, like if you've, if you've experienced abuse, it's hard to even acknowledge that it's that individual's prob. When you have personalized it for so many years. Yeah. And when they also told you that you are the problem, and then with this too, the community might also stand behind that. Um, uh, yeah. There, especially with parents. Like I've heard things like, well, you only have one mom or only have one dad. Or they won't be around for forever. Yeah. Or, yeah. Or everybody does the best that they can. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of. Things that we throw at people mm-hmm. Who have suffered with very difficult parents. And I think the other thing though is that I was thinking when you were saying that, is that you're right, when we're the, the, the toxic individual or the pathological individual pathologizes their you for having a reaction to their behavior and the culture. And I think a lot of com communities do that too. They see you as the difficult one. They see you as the obstacle. Mm-hmm. Not as the mm-hmm. Not the dynamic or not the individual causing the problem. It's amazing to me, I guess is really what I'm trying to say. Mm-hmm. In a really long way. Mm-hmm. How often we, we collude with predators or a, or assaultive or a abusive behavior. Yeah. It's quite scary, but I think what helps me understand this a little bit more is. They are a different way oftentimes in those communities. Right? So they are, maybe they're the helpers, maybe they're the pastors. Maybe they are. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they, they often, you know, have, um, a target individual and oftentimes it's the their children. So no one gets to see what that child is truly experiencing. No one gets to see what. Someone in a marriage is experiencing when the doors are closed and it's just you and that person. So they might see the, uh, you know, a narc, which we often know is, uh, is masked, right? So when they get out in that community, they look great. So how do you even compete with that when they're showing their perfect self out there and. You can't, it, it's really, and oftentimes my clients want that. If they can be so good to those people, then it must be me then. Right, right, right. It must be me. And it's so hard it, it's. It's really it, you know, because it's so much wound. Uh, 'cause you want to get to that part where you say, well I want them to be, to be like that. That's truly who they are. But it really isn't that, that they spend hours out there. They spend, you know, almost your whole life with you. So that's the true self is right, because I'm thinking back to that mother baby dyad. Mm-hmm. You know, that where the self gets formed in the sense of self is. Is a mother treats the infant with a, in a safe way. Mm-hmm. In a loving way that shows up. The infant says, oh, I'm good. I'm lovable. I'm See, I'm validated. It's seen. Yeah. Yeah. So when you think about that dynamic going wrong, let's just pick on mom for a moment. Mm-hmm. I don't, it's not exclusive to mom dads or just as important in different ways, but mm-hmm. But when that dynamic is pathological mm-hmm. And, and harmful damaging, then the infant says, or as the child grows, says, well. Especially if they're nice to outside people. I don't think we talk about that much. No.'cause narcissistic disorder has this image management issue. Yep. They, they're always protecting their reputation and their image. Mm-hmm. So here they are, look great from the outside. So the world says, well, they're wonderful to me. How can you have a problem? You have to be the problem. And you're thinking, well, they say that I'm a problem. And it's very, it's a very terrible cycle. Mm-hmm. And then the other thing I was thinking of that the earlier point that I was trying to make that kinda lost the thread on was then you've got the culture to finding abuse. I know for me, yeah. You know, in the, the relationship I was in, he never struck me. He never called me a bad name. Mm-hmm. And he rarely raised his voice. Wow. And I think the worst thing he ever said to me was, you're an overweight, middle aged woman. Which to me was like, okay, that's truthful. But, but, but yet it was, I was terrified. Mm-hmm. He, I mean, I had, I hadn't felt that kinda level of fear in my life since a much earlier, terribly abusive situation. Yeah. The fear was off the charts. I, I felt gravely at risk with this individual. So here we have like, well, but did he yell at you? No. Did he call you a name? No. Did he touch you? No, but yet I am in great fear for my life. That that sounds, uh, uh, familiar. Um, it's almost as though, you know, majority of these individuals when you have a parent that you know is an RQ, are almost often end up dating one in your life at some point. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, and relationship aspects of things. Mine looked good on paper. You couldn't. Say a doctor was bad, right? Yeah. Just right. You know? Um, how do you argue with that? They, they save lives really so. Yeah. But then again, when you're by yourself and the doors are closed, it's just you. And, um, they know how to appear to look, you know, pleasant and for people to respect and love and care. But that is just, again, a few hours of their life. And when, um, the target. Is just alone with them. You suffer a great deal. You right. Um, do you think, this may not be not a fair question to ask you, 'cause I I'm putting you on the spot. Do you think the rates of narcissism is consistent across the world? Oh, I, or do you think so much, do you think so you think some countries are more ill than others with it? I think it's so much more in this culture is because again, there's the, the, um, obligations, the, you know, loyalties is so. Ingrained in us growing up. Um, it's collective, it's community individualistic. It's, you know, you kind of fend for yourself. If you don't like it, you leave, whatever. It's a, it's much more different. Um, so therefore a, a, a narcissist can feed into that so much more. Um, and where, you know, they, they require blind. Loyalty often, and the culture also expects that, like you, you obey your parents, you do what you know, same as perhaps even your man, you view, you know, heterosexual couples often, and you, um, you're supposed to do what your man tells you to you, you care, you know, you, there's a certain way a woman is looked at is to take care of the home, to do this, to do that. So that circle really. Because of that collectiveness, because of how the culture is created. It's, it can nurses feed that? It's, it's almost a stomping guard for that. That's interesting. Yeah.'cause I can see that, that, and I, I was thinking as you're saying all that, I wonder what, when in cultures that have more egalitarian roles versus the cultures are more hierarchical mm-hmm. Or patriarchal. How, if it's much worse in the hierarchal societies than it is in the more egalitarian societies. Yeah. And then the other thing I was thinking about is that we don't often talk about how, not just that the person or the relationship gets sick, but the system gets sick. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The systems can, can become narcissistic. Yeah. Yeah. Governments, all of those things like Exactly, yeah. Like healthcare systems, government. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you know why am is, uh, very much so used where, you know, who I am is very important, so you respect me, you know, so that their sort of line, um, and. There, you know, as you talk about that, I think about, you know, which I write about in my book a lot is the authoritarian role. It's how I typically, you know, can differentiate it in this culture is a lot of our, uh, upbringing, a very rigid authoritarian sort of way of, um, upbringing and, you know, that is often typical. So, but when, when, as. As adults, uh, you know, as children get older in age and become adults, that that authoritarian world shifts for the parents and they become more authoritative, they're more flexible, they're more lenient, they're more understanding. Um, but with a narcissist, it never really changes. It continues. Yeah. They continue to feed off of that. Um, so much so, so that's really the huge difference that, you know, I see. Oftentimes it's. That rigidness never ends no matter what age you are. That's a good point. You're right.'cause it's, yeah. The two hallmarks is inflexible and rigid. Yeah. They just only know one song that they play at every, in every interaction. Mm-hmm. It's the same. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, so you get this individual in your office and I'm, you're treating them in the United States, I'm assuming? Yeah. So they, they're also immigrants. Mm-hmm. Here. Mm-hmm. And struggling Then, so you've got, they got really kind of two problems. They've got the cultural problems of the acclimation going on. Mm-hmm. And maybe being homesick and, and all those types of things coming happening. But then they also have the issue of the fact that there, they're a mini culture inside of a larger culture. Yes. And the mini culture, something is going wrong. Mm-hmm. That, wow. I'm just, as I'm saying that, I'm thinking that's, that's, that's terribly stressful. It is terrible stressful. You have all those layers, you know, and then I think, uh, you know what I often ear to on top of that is I am. You know, I've been through so much, I've been through war, you know, all these things that maybe what I'm going through is not, is not, it's not that bad. Mm-hmm. Right. So we, the abuse sort of becomes normalized because again, I am maybe not in my home country getting, having to flood or dealing with all these, you know, war. All right. So it's. It, it's so hard. It's, it's a hard, hard, you know, it's because, you know, I shared with mm-hmm. I shared with you before we went on air here that I was also an immigrant in another country. Mm-hmm. Like, like these individuals were, and I am in, so I'm in the, so I'm trying to acclimate to a country that I don't understand the rules well, and I wasn't fluent, so I couldn't speak the language well. So here I am trying to run a business. Trying to navigate this, and I'm the head of the business, which means very brave, which I have to be at most interactions. Mm-hmm. And I'm, and, and most of the time I'm drowning in the language of Spanish. I don't understand Spanish. And then, and then I'm being abused on top of it. And I, but I need him, I need him to manage the country because he's a native of that country and I am not. Mm-hmm. It was, and I remember that it was really, people were like, well, why didn't you get out to the first sign? Because it was complicated, because all these things depended on this. And if I, that I didn't, I couldn't see another way. I mean, I didn't, how am I gonna go deal with a, a bureaucrat in an office on some tax? I don't even understand what the point of the tax is. Yeah. Because I don't speak the language. Yeah. So, because you, you were in survival mode, like there Yeah. So I can imagine that individuals, they come into your office and they're in a similar spot. Yeah. They're probably absolutely drowning in stress. Mm-hmm. And then when you add children to that. Mm. So if you're married to them and you have children and it, you have, again, oftentimes this might be like you said, their I, you know, immigrant of another country, and, um, their partner holds this. Well, if they leave, it's their status. How are they going to now stay? Well, in fact, someone just wrote me this week and said, I'm here from another country, and I, it's dependent on the marriage. I'm realizing he's not a good person, and if I leave, then my status with the United States is in jeopardy. Now here's the interesting peace of mind. I didn't depend on him for my status in the country we were in. I got it on other merits. Mm-hmm. So that part was, I could get divorced and still be okay. Mm-hmm. But you know what happened? My, my residency card went missing. Oh. Yeah, I think he stole it. All of us. Yeah. With obviously. Mm-hmm. Yep. We were starting to break up. Obviously he wanted to keep me in the country. Yep. Mm-hmm. So he trapped me into the country. Whew. Yeah. Yeah. So now you can't, and we don't think about that too. Yeah. The fact that they're, they're so, yeah. There, there's so many pieces that makes this really complicated. That, that, that, that, as I said, I, I told you before we went on air, I was terrified. Mm-hmm. I was terrified. Mm-hmm. There was so many things that were working against me. Yeah. And I can imagine you're, yeah. Being a foreign in land, that is, yeah. People are going to back up. Back him up versus you. Right. So, and then being a female body, like, there's just so mad. Yeah. And, and for me, being white, there was a negative, uh, I knew they were gonna side against me because I was seen as a rich white woman who's entitled and mm-hmm. So, even though I may be right, they're gonna say, no, you're not right. He's right. Yeah. I mean, oh, he's awful. There's so much, there's lack of resources and there's, you know, in this community, if you're there, there's just lack of resources, you know, lack of understanding. Women in that sort of way. Um, there, you, we talked about, about religion tax against it. There's just so many. Oh, there's the, you know, we've had it worse. We stayed, you know. Yeah. There's so many, um, things, but I think just expecting someone to leave is just really dismissive of Yeah. While I was there is horrible situation. I've never talked about this before. Uh, a horrible situation happened. My massage therapist was a Russian. So here she is living in this foreign country in a Latin American country. She's from Russia. She was a mail over bride and her husband was a much older man from that culture, and they were living together, had a child together, but she also had an older daughter that she was very feeling very careful and protective of. And the marriage wasn't working. Mm-hmm. It wasn't going well. And so she started to kinda live as roommates and doing her own thing. And one night he attacked her in a lethal way. He attacked her and she ran out. I mean, you know, very obviously injured, screaming for help. And she said, I know all the neighbors were home and nobody stepped out. No. And then she said the police showed up and they took his side. And then she said, and now I'm in this country with a daughter who actually is from another country, but a son who's of this country. And I'm being compelled to stay because my son, I, I can't take him, I can't leave the country with him. Hmm. And I was, it was horrific. So many of those stories. Yeah, I know. It was horrific. And, and, you know, and he did nearly, he didn't kill her, but what he was doing was, was a lethal attack. Mm-hmm. And it also, by the way, it, um, it's, it's permanently scarred her face. I mean, he's, he was hitting her in the head and the face, so she had massive amount of stitches. Mm-hmm. It was tragic. Tragic situation. Yeah. It was a timing. Um. In my country we're acid too, like Yeah. Doing acid on someone's face. If I can't have you, no one else can. Yeah. Um, and I think he, I think he must have, you know, I think that's what he, I don't remember what she said. She said he was screaming at her. He, she was sleeping on a couch. She'd gone home from work and fallen asleep on a couch and he woke her up beating her in the head and, and he was screaming at her. Mm-hmm. And I think that's, maybe that's what he was saying. He is like, if I can't, if I can't have you, nobody can have you and mm-hmm. And she just said, you know, it was, she goes, the walls were paper thin. I know my neighbors heard me. And then she goes, I ran out into the street and there's, you know, just blood pouring down her face. And she said, nobody helped me, nobody would help me. And it goes, and now I'm stuck in the country and I'm, you know, battling for my custody of my kids and, yeah. So, so here's a question for you. What percentage of the people that you see actually. Have the ability and the resources to actually leave, is that a frequent problem? I think in, in the US there is more resources. I, you know, and the fact that they even show up. Therapy tells me they, they're in a place where they want to recover and they want to get out. In other countries that, you know, where there are less resources is much more difficult. They, it is just, yeah, men being that hierarchy, all those things, and it's really. You become dependent on this human being you be and, and you know, the only thing I often hear is I pray I marry a good man, right? Mm-hmm. Or I marry because that's all you're left with is, you know, if, especially if you don't have. Education. But even if you do, maybe you were told not to use it at some point, and motherhood I should, you know, you should put that first and just be home. Yeah. So you are really trapped in these situations where, um, it's hard to get out. It, it really is. And the, you know, that mentality of you. You know, your wife, you please, your, your partner. I think, you know, a lot of westerners don't, you know, it's really, we are getting to the point of it. You know, women are more free. We can go out, so we can do these things. So when we're, oh yeah, just, just leave. If you can't stay right, it's not so in so many and. Oftentimes my clients too, they still come in with that mentality and that strict what they grew up knowing, um, and want me to make it work. Uh, just because you live the culture does not necessarily mean you've left a lot of the No, a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. They create these mini cultures, right? Inside of the mm-hmm. The Western culture, they're still living it. You know, I'm thinking for example, that Middle Eastern, what just happened in the last few years in Middle East with women? Yeah. The number of women has lost. Their lives attempting to have more autonomy. Yeah. So you may, you may have a family that's still abiding by that kind of system. Yeah, yeah. Inside of the United States, and yet they're gonna still have a severe lockdown experience of lack of freedom. Absolutely. And even in the United States, they, you know, in those homes, which, you know, some of my clients might be where they're there, but everyone else in the family lives there. The mm-hmm. The extended family. The, it was the, that the, there's so many people that are constantly telling you that you need to stay with this person. Not just you. You don't just even have you to even sit down and process and think and all of that. There is. Other humans whispering in your ears. And they're going to take the side of their, their, their kids usually. Yeah. Do you find that in these family systems there's usually one person who gets it the worst, almost like there's a scapegoat. Oh, most. Oh yeah. There's always just sort of like, there's always scap. Yeah, there's a scapegoat Then, you know, um, the golden child that, you know, I. All those, I still see it. Uh, and my, it's oftentimes the scapegoats that come to therapy that was gonna ask you is who, who usually seeks therapy. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah. A scapegoat does. Yeah. What do you usually say to them when they come to you? Because I, I know what I, what I was scapegoated too, so I actually know what it feels like. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's a terrible position to be in. So I'd love to hear what advice you give them, because I. I have my own thoughts on that. Yeah. Well, of first it's even learning what that is, that education around it. Yeah. And then they're like, oh. So when we look at family systems and, you know, they identify, I'm like, which one are you? I don't even know one. I are you? Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm that, yeah, that. Which one? Is that your brother or sister? Oh, yep. So we just, we've already gone through that and, um, they can kind of identify it. Um, it's like, what does that feel like knowing. And you know, it, it oftentimes it brings them in that wow, that there is a name for it. Like I, you know, having that name, that having, again, that identity where, okay. Uh, but I think often they tell me how do I, not I, how do I stop being the scapegoat? People wanna fix it. Yeah. Well, yeah. There, there's my, there's the hard part I find is that you, you're not going to get outta that role. Nope. It's just, yeah. It, yeah. You, you're the one with the least amount of power, so you have no ability to sway or leverage anything. Yeah. Unless somebody with a lot of power in that system decides to take favor, fault, fall favor on you. Mm-hmm. But usually that doesn't happen. Usually. It's so bad. Everybody knows that you start to side with that person, you're gonna join them. Yeah. And I've seen people as far as even go get a PhD, a doctorate, they all the. Things just to get away from that title. But it is just, they're never enough. It it, yeah. No, it's, it's brutal. It's really my, my, usually my advice is, leave the system and start your own. And I say, then I say to them, remember friends of the family, you choose. Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. I wish I could tell a lot of my clients to leave. I I can't it. No, I know, I know. That's the true, it's true. And, and not, you know. And I get the culture, it, it, I really, I've lived it. I am still, I still practice it a great deal because in both cultures we, there is no perfect culture in the us. There isn't any perfect cul, like, there's just not. Um, and I sort of balance it by having. Kind of both. Good. I see the good in each culture and use that in my household and how I choose to raise my kids. Um, yeah, I love that. You know, I don't think there's just. You know, one way, um, like the white way. No, I agree. Yeah. So in the podcast Extra, let's jump over and talk about what happens if you do find that you're a scapegoat. How do you psychologically survive when you can't exit and you can't escape? Yeah. But how can people find out more about you Agatha, as well as about the book trapped in their script. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, well, let me answer the last part. The last part, uh, trapped in the script is Oliver, where books. Can be found in online Powell's bookstore, Amazon. Um, and we'll be sure to include a, a link to you the book so that people can find it and, uh, you know, you can find me on my social media platform, beautiful Sunshine Therapy, or just on my website, beautiful sunshine therapy.com. And. I love that title, by the way. Beautiful title. Thank you. It's my daughter is in son's name, actually. Oh, that's gorgeous. That's what it means in my language. Uh, the ation one. Beautiful. The other one. Sunshine. Thank you so much for joining us today, Agatha. This was a really, really wonderful conversation and I was thrilled to have met you. So much fun. I had fun talking. With you. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as the Toxic Free Relationship club@kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.