Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

You Can Love Them and Still Be Exploited: Sexual Coercion with Cult Expert Pamela Takefman

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 4 • Episode 226

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Ever wondered how someone can exploit you sexually while you still love them?

This week, Pamela Takefman joins Dr. Kerry to explain how sexual coercion works—and why it doesn’t always require kidnapping or obvious physical force to be real. 

Learn how perpetrators gradually test boundaries until extreme exploitation feels normal, and why loving your abuser doesn’t mean the abuse isn’t real.

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT 

Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA INTERVIEW 

🔹 Think you might be experiencing coercion but aren't sure? Wondering what legal options exist for survivors?  

Pamela reveals what qualifies as trafficking under federal law and how to assess whether you're psychologically ready to pursue justice through the court system. 

👉 Get immediate access to this extended interview: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

MORE ABOUT PAMELA TAKEFMAN 

Website: mcolaw.com 

PAMELA TAKEFMAN is Deputy Head of the Sexual Misconduct in Spiritual Communities practice at McAllister Olivarius, where she represents survivors of sexual abuse, forced labor, and coercive control in cults, spiritual communities, and other high-control groups.

Submit your question to be answered on air here!

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism.

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This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

You Can Love Them and Still Be Exploited: Sexual Coercion with Cult Expert Pamela Takefman

 Pamela Takefman: [00:00:00] Trafficking was something that P Diddy was indebted of. All of his survivors. They all loved him. They loved him so much. Didn't you love him, but you loved him? Do you still love him? You know, of course these women answering honestly, were like, yes, of course. I loved him. I loved him so much. Why would I do this if I didn't love him?

Sex in exchange for basically having a privileged position in NXIVM was considered commercial sex.

Dr. Kerry: When they found that deal with the woman in France whose husband had trafficked her in her sleep. 

 Pamale Takefman: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: Oh gosh. And there was all these men in these chat groups of 70,000, you know, sized groups.

Narcissists and antisocial personality disorders do a lot of destructive things, but one of the really terrible tragedies is when trafficking is happening, what is trafficking? To define it and discuss the legal side [00:01:00] of. Abuse. I'm being joined today by Pamela Huffman, who specializes in legal cases such as these.

Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Pamela Huffman. I'm really interested in talking to you. When I, when, uh, you, your team contacted me, it was right around the deal with P Diddy and what was happening with that case. In fact, it, it had a wrapped up and I know a lot of us were terribly disappointed, really quite crushed with the outcome of that.

And, um, tell me a little bit about your interest in the case and a little bit about you. Sure, 

 Pamale Takefman: sure. So, uh, I am the Deputy Head of Sexual Misconduct in Spiritual Communities practice at McAllister Olivarius, which is a mouthful I recognize. And our group, uh, headed up by Carol Murchison, um, we really take on spiritual communities, coercive groups, cults writ large, uh, which is kind of a, a hot button word.

Um, and our clients come to us. [00:02:00] Often after they've left and they have been sexually abused sometimes. Um, been subject to forced labor. We've had a number of forced labor cases recently, um, often as children and where we we're following the PDD trial closely was having to do with the federal trafficking law.

Now trafficking was something that, uh, P Diddy was indebted of, and that was part of the trial. And, um, as you know, I'm sure listeners know, uh, he was actually acquitted of that and something that was, um, one of the tactics of his team was to really focus on how much all of, um. His survivors. They, they all loved him.

They loved him so much, didn't you? But didn't you love [00:03:00] him, but you loved him? Do you still love him? You know? Mm-hmm. Questions like that. And, and, you know, of course these women answering honestly, were like, yes, of course. I loved him. I loved him so much. Why would I do this if I didn't love him? And I think that the trafficking law does in effect, allow.

For a, a woman to have perhaps feelings for her perpetrator. And that's not, that doesn't negate it, uh, in a way. And I think, um, you know, for, for our practice, uh, we use a trafficking law. And I, I'd love to talk more about it, but I, I, I realize I've been, I've been talking a lot, so I wanna give you a chance.

No. 

Dr. Kerry: I was thinking about the fact that I think that's an issue that happens in all abusive relationships. Yes. Me being a survivor of abusive relationship as well as being a clinical psychologist, that's something I didn't understand when I was seeing patients, is that you feel [00:04:00] very connected to these individuals.

You long for their approval. You want their love and their support, but it doesn't mean that you're enjoying the abuse or you're even a allowing or agreeing the abuse. You can be in opposition of it. Yeah. And yet still want a connection to that person. And I, I think that distinction is extremely hard to understand.

 Pamela Takefman: Yes. Well, and especially I think, you know, for us, in our experience using this, this very potent law, the trafficking law, um, it has an interesting effect both. On, on clients or potential clients to say to them, well, you know, there's this law called trafficking and, and it really takes into account the coercion you suffered.

It uses the word coercion, which is, uh, very powerful and very potent. Um, but it means that at the end of the day, you are gonna be a victim of trafficking. And I think the other, the other side of that is also when we, you know, use it, the, the. [00:05:00] The sort of defendants in the cases that the perpetrators or, or the, the, the organizations that, um, you know, enabled the perpetrators to exist are sort of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, traffickers.

I mean, you know, and people have an idea of what. Traffickers are, that is very strong. Yeah. It's, it's taking, taking people, throwing them in the trunk, bringing them across state lines, and that's not what it is. Um, because it, it could be within families, it could be, it, you know, it doesn't necessarily even have to do with state lines.

It doesn't have to do with violence. Physical violence. If I could take a step back and just tell you a little bit about, about the law. 

Dr. Kerry: Um, well, in fact, I'd like you to take even a step back further Yes. And say 

 Pamale Takefman: what 

Dr. Kerry: do you 

 Pamela Takefman: do specifically? Yes. Good question. Thank you. Um, so we and Micheler various, um, we bring lawsuits on behalf of people who have been in, um, subject to coercive [00:06:00] control.

Uh, and. You know, depending on, on, on what the kind of state of it is. Was it a kind of labor scheme? Was it a, um, a sex cult? Was it a, a, a cult that everyone thought was, everyone was celibate and oops, the guru wasn't celibate after you were love bombed and isolated from your family and, um, made completely financially dependent and emotionally dependent.

Um, suddenly. You need to have sex with the guru in order to exist, in order to live, or your family would have bad karma for the rest of their lives, or, um, you know, your, your life would be over and everyone's life would be over. So we, we've, um, we've brought several lawsuits. Um, we are, um, always, always, uh.

Happy to chat with more people who might, um, be in these types of [00:07:00] situations. Um, I think it's, uh, it's kind of a, a growing niche. I don't know actually of any other lawyers who are kind of focused on, um, coercive control and groups. Um, and, you know, we, we kind of help survivors try to find some justice. I think it's whether the.

Justice system can actually provide justice as a kind of other story because, um, you know, in the civil system it's just money. And, um, we've had a lot of, uh, you know, situations in which it doesn't always feel good, uh, for our survivors. And, you know, we, you know, we understand too that sometimes even just speaking to us is retraumatizing.

They see our name in the email and they're like, oh God, what does she have to say again? And you know, obviously I, I take, I understand that and [00:08:00] I, um, try not to be as retraumatizing, try to be as right, um, sensitive as possible. But a litigation is. Right. Very tricky. Very tricky. 

Dr. Kerry: So how did you personally get interested in this?

 Pamela Takefman: You know, it's a good question. I, so my background, I worked in a large law firm, uh, in New York City, and I come from working as part of, um, New York. Large law firms have a, a real strong practice in pro bono work, and we worked, I worked with an amazing organization called Her Justice, I dunno if you've heard about it, which works with domestic violence victims and, um, sets them up with pro bono attorneys.

And often, you know, my initial experiences with some of those cases was not that the women wanted to go to court, but that. The men were trying to use the legal system as a way to punish them. [00:09:00]And, um, and then of course, so many of my clients were so, um, resourceful and intelligent and, you know, they'd sort of show up with these like extremely slick Wall Street lawyers and the, the abuser would be like, oh, no, no, no, I don't wanna do this anymore.

Um, but um, you know, it was, um. The, the, my kind of background in, in working, um, as an advocate for, for domestic violence survivors, I think ties into this work in, in a, in a major way. Um, because it's very, it maps on very, very similarly because, you know, even if this, the, the person who was, you know, I, I sort of refer to 'em as a, as a guru or a leader or, um.

A master, um, even if they weren't a sort of boyfriend partner figure. Um, it, it's the same [00:10:00]kind of emotional I. Abuse that happens. Um, so yeah, so that's, that's where I, that's where I come to it. 

Dr. Kerry: So, so help us understand the trafficking law then, 'cause, because you're right. Yes. My, my take of it is I end up thinking sort of like the coyotes who are Yes.

Gathering all the women up in, you know, lesser kind of struggling areas, harsh, and then they take advantage of these women hoping for a better chance. And the next thing they know, they, they're somewhere they never thought they are. They would be drugged up and then serving as prostitutes. So you're right.

That's, that has been my bias. So really, what is trafficking? Well, so the way 

 Pamela Takefman: they kind of have opened it up is that what trafficking is is when someone uses force fraud or coercion to, you know, knowing that they're gonna force the other person. Into a commercial sex act. And now how coercion gets defined [00:11:00] is threat of serious harm and serious harm includes psychological harm, reputational harm, um, you know, it's very broad.

That would cause someone in the similar situation to believe that, that they would be suffering. It doesn't necessarily have to be bodily suffering. And then there's the other piece of it, which is commercial sex. Now you think of commercial sex on the face of that, you're like, that's prostitution. But actually that's been really opened up in recent times.

So we have Harvey Weinstein, for instance, and the court ruled there that sex in exchange for, for example, meeting a director because you really want that part. It's considered commercial sex. It's sex exchange for anything of value to anyone. So in Keith Ranier's case, sex in Exchange for [00:12:00]being in a privileged position in the cult, one of, I don't know how closely you followed.

I was like, really? Devouring Keith. Anyone? It came out, this is before I worked for Oh, you're talking about the Yeah. Do know because I made a TV series of it. Yeah. Yes. Um. Sex in exchange for basically having a privileged position in NXIVM was considered commercial sex. So it's really a kind of wide open, you know, I, I, um, I say to you, if you, if you have sex with me, you, you will be a prophetess and.

You know that that's not true because that's fraudulent or you know, you know, or if I say to you, um, uh, if you don't, um, have sex with me, like, you know, in the afterlife, your, your, all of your, uh, children will be, uh, [00:13:00] sheep and that's terrible because, you know, sheep are bad. You know, something like that.

That right is enough. And a court will look not just to kind of. How regular person would, um, think about that, which is, well that's, that's kind of crazy. Of course you'll never believe that, but we'll take into account all the circumstances. So if you've, for example, grown up in a cult and all you know, are that sheep are the antichrist, um, you would say, wow.

Like I definitely had to continue to have sex with him. Otherwise the psychological harm would be so great. Um, and so it's. It's really, um, a dynamic law in that way. And I think, you know, for us we get so much, 'cause so many people calling us. I think the law often, you know, the law has a kind of magic cutoff at 18 and they say as soon as they're 18, you [00:14:00] know, everything you did was like completely knowing and.

You got yourself in this situation as an adult and good luck. You know, we have people calling us and they're like, you know, my aunt gave all of her life savings to this guy and how do I get it back for her? And it's like, well, like was it a gift? Mm-hmm. Yes. It was a gift. Um, and it's, you know, the law doesn't kind of take into account these coercive principles often.

So that's why I think trafficking is really. Revolutionary, um, in that, in that way because it does sort of say, okay, let's, let's think about the actual scenario that this adult has landed themselves into, and not, not just assume that everything they, they do is completely sound, you know, because people could just get themselves in physicians because they're vulnerable anyway.

I think [00:15:00] a lot, 

Dr. Kerry: yeah, we don't, we don't realize that. That we are needy, that emotionally, we're psychologically, yeah. Yeah. We're psychologically needy and that we wanna belong, we wanna be chosen, and we wanna be loved. And even the threat of existential. Kind of like, um, abandonment is a form of annihilation and we will do a lot to avoid any form of isolation like that.

 Pamela Takefman: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. And I, I was thinking lately, I, I actually, I was listening to you, I was thinking about the dating apps and how even there, there's kind of this fraudulent behavior that's occurring where people will say. Um, I'm looking for a relationship. No, they're actually looking for a hookup. You know, they'll misrepresent themselves.

Yes. In order to have a chance with you when they know that you're not looking for that, and that we've kind of have a culture where we've, it's like if I can get away with it and, and in my mind I don't think I've harmed you by my definition, then it's kind of permissible. 

 Pamela Takefman: Yes. Well, and I think, you know, there's sort of, I think you could really catch [00:16:00] people at a time.

Where they're really vulnerable. And I think so often, um, we're chatting with people that, you know, it's really just you catch someone. When I've had clients when they were caught, just when they lost a loved one or when they broke out of a relationship, or, you know, I remember I left college, I followed a boyfriend to England and I did a master's degree and that was great.

But you know, another. Another person followed their boyfriend into a cult. And you know, what was, what to say was one thing, you know, maybe I would've followed my boyfriend into a cult if he was going to a cult. You 

Dr. Kerry: know? So Well, 

 Pamela Takefman: yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: I do think they tar, they think they target. I do think that there's an intentional targeting that's occurring.

Yes. I mean, I met my ex when I was widowed. Yes. And, and I had on the dating app that I was widowed and he even even admitted that he was searching for widows. 

 Pamela Takefman: Wow. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. So there, there was a spec specificity to his, his intent. Yeah. Now the other thing he was in looking for was somebody with life insurance.

Yes. So, yeah, there, [00:17:00] there was also, that was going on too. So there was definitely, there was a look, I think there's people that look for these big transition moments. You moved across the country. You recently, uh, like you said, lost a, maybe lost a job or you lost a loved one, or maybe you're in a new, totally new stage of life.

Yes. Like you've left college and you're moving into adulthood. Yeah. These are really big transition points that make us vulnerable to people who are powerful. Yeah, and I think also sometimes hardship makes us extremely vulnerable and that we're willing to, we might, we might. Not ask the right questions when we meet somebody because we're hoping that this is a dream come true.

Yes. You know, I'm thinking of, thinking of P Diddy. I mean, how many people did he take advantage of? Because he offered a pipeline of a, a big chance. A real opportunity. Yes. And they, they saw it as, uh, rejecting him is rejecting the dream. 

 Pam Takefman: Yes. And that, 

Dr. Kerry: that was too great of a loss for them. Well, I, you 

 Pamela Takefman: know, and I think similar.

For, for a lot of our groups, [00:18:00] and p Diddy was this sort of, you know, um, cabal of people around him that who really, um, pushed this idea that, no, no, listen, listen to him. He'll, he knows what's right. He, he'll, he'll, he'll set you up for life. Just do what he says, because you have to, there's actually, there's no not doing what he says, and it's mm-hmm.

You know, sometimes these people. Uh, serve as a kind of gut check, you know, and it's like, am I really supposed to do that? And they, and they, and they say, they, they, they basically tell you to ignore your gut. They say, yeah. They, they normalize it. Yes, they normalize it. Yes. And I found, you know, so many of my clients would tell me that they would be physically sick, that they would know that what was happening, what was wrong in their bodies.

Um, but sort of, sort of. You know, able with their mind to kind of swat it away and, and in part because [00:19:00] yeah, the whole system kind of serves it. Tell them a different message, basically. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. And it's even fascinating why that system does that. Have you heard of, um, Jennifer Free's work on betrayal blindness?

 Pamela Takefman: Oh, no. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. She did research on this and found that for, for sort of. Large psychological reasons, we often will literally become blind to certain pieces of information in order to protect ourselves from the truth of the reality. And I, when I listened to that case and those individuals around P Diddy saying, no, no, it's okay.

This is the only way. I wonder if there's a level of them that they couldn't see it, because if they saw it, then they'd have to do something with it, and that would put them in conflict with themselves, which is just too great. There's an Well, I'm, yes. Yeah, there's an, there's an example in the book where this, um, woman's.

Partner was picked up for child and in their home, they had literature on the, the center table of immature literature. And the detective said to the wife or the partner, what do you think [00:20:00] of this? And is her perusing through the images? And she goes, I don't wanna, he just has this out here. I know as he, you know, maybe it's.

She's kind of like brushed it off is not a big deal. I know. And later he circled back, like a year or so later and said, what did you think of that? She goes, I don't know how I could not see. It was so inappropriate that it was right there. Yeah, it was right in front of me and it was so inappropriate. But I know for me that there was, you know, there was, when I was.

So, so I know you don't know, but my ex was a serial cheater and he's actually, he's a, he's a sexual predator, to be honest with you. And, um, he's just gotten away with it because he's of course, targets adult women and, you know, and he, he, he's very smooth at what he's doing, so yes. But when I, but early in that relationship, I had several times my gut said, something's wrong.

This isn't feeling right. Tracking. Right. I don't, and I wouldn't even know why I would feel that. I would just feel these feelings. 

 Pamela Takefman: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: And, and yet it it because you, it's so easy to dismiss it when everything looks okay. Yes. Or when around you says he's okay or they're okay. [00:21:00]

 Pamela Takefman: Well, and you know, and if, you know, in the cases of the, of the cult, I think sometimes too, it's everyone in the group.

Looks a certain way, acts a certain way. They're all believing in it. And I think, you know, there's also the sort of, um, uh, perpetrator victim sort of, you know, doubling, right? So sometimes someone who, um, is enabling, you know, was themselves or is themselves also a victim. So it's, um, it's a little bit tricky, you know, right.

Dr. Kerry: They may be the victim of that person, which is why they're going again. They're going along with it. Right. So what is it, do you think, as the public generally, in addition to the fact just the definition of trafficking has been broadened, what else do you think that we just don't understand about trafficking in general?

 Pamela Takefman: Hmm.Well, so I think that it is, uh, talking about relationships, uh, having it within a [00:22:00] family that's. Actually, you know, it's almost like what we thought about not that long ago, about within marriage. That's, um, oh, like you can't be, you can't be within a marriage. Right. And the idea that you cannot be trafficked within a marriage that, that those two concepts of marriage and trafficking or a relationship and trafficking just.

Don't go together. Mm-hmm. Because, mm-hmm. Because what, you know, of course your, your trafficker is not also a love object. But I think, um, at the same time, you know, it's, I think about, um, the case of, of Keith Ranieri and how much these people idolized him. Just thought he was, they thought he was the smartest man on earth.

Smartest man on earth. They called him. He called himself Vanguard. And so the sex with him. Was, or, you know, the branding and the sort of extremes. You know, I, [00:23:00] I don't know if you, if in your work you find this, but in, in my work at Macal Olivarius, it's sort of like sometimes I find with these guys, it's like they didn't wake up and, and start with the branding.

If they wanna start with the branding. You know, it's like you start with a bad thing. You're probably like, I don't know. No, I'm not going there. But, you know, it's almost like they sort of say, okay, I'm gonna try this. What about that? And I'm gonna sort of push, keep pushing the boundary, keep pushing the boundary, and seeing how far they could get with that person.

And suddenly it's sort of like, yeah, you have, uh, you know, a sex cult where it was brand. I know. A really 

Dr. Kerry: bizarre behavior. Here's the thing though, I, I, I worry, I worry this is what's going on because this is what I saw my ex doing. Is that he researched stuff. 

 Pamela Takefman: Mm mm But some 

Dr. Kerry: of this wasn't just naturally his own idea.

Yeah. He saw other people doing it, thought it was a great idea, thought he would try it. Yes. And then, you know, he was co He's pushing the boundary too. Yes. So [00:24:00] I wonder if, if that's, you know, is Keith that smart to think about all these things? I don't know. Yes. But he, who's to say what? There were the human mind's gonna take you.

Yes. But I do think there's. What I'm also bothered, like for example, when they found that deal with the woman in France whose husband had trafficked her in her sleep. 

 Pamela Takefman: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: Oh 

 Pamela Takefman: gosh. 

Dr. Kerry: And there was all these men in these chat groups of 70,000, you know, sized groups. Is that, look at the degree of communication that's going on.

Yes. And the sharing of stories that's going on. So there's, it's almost, to me it's like they're grooming each other on how to become. Worse at what they do. Yeah. So, so sometimes I don't even think necessarily think that they're that brilliant, but they're just that sophisticated at knowing how to get good information.

I mean, if, if you think about it, if you are a bored person, this is the antisocial personality disorder. Mm-hmm. Is insanely bored because they're an empty person. Yes. And you, you get off on hurting people. Then you're gonna do a lot of research on, in, in directions that are pretty crazy. Yes. Well, [00:25:00]but, and then, you know, 

 Pamela Takefman: uh, in the, in thinking about it, in the positive light, and I think about this, about my clients all the time, you know, all it takes 'cause, right?

'cause we've sort of talked about, you know, you could have these kind of really crazy people. We could have their enablers who, who are sort of like, okay, yes, I, I'll go along with that. I'll go along with that. But then it really, all it really takes is one person. To really trust themselves and be able to get out and to speak up and how much that really speaks volumes, um, that that woman of France pelico, I like.

Yeah. I think about, I, I, I have a client who also thinks about that sentence about turning shame around. Mm-hmm. And how powerful that is. You know, I think. You know, for all your listeners who I know are probably listening to this because they're trying to change their lives. Yeah. They're trying to heal themselves.

That that bravery, you know, you could have all these people who are really, um, [00:26:00] who have, have, are, are, have taken, taken a certain type of extreme. And you can say, um, I, I'm not, I'm not. Gonna do it today, you know? Yeah. And I think it's really, um, it's really hard. It's hard to come forward. It's hard to speak up, I think of so many of my clients who who've put their lives Yeah.

Uh, you know, in a litigation you have to, you have to give your adversary your medical records. You have to really, you know, discovery in this country is really open, really, um, revealing and, um. You know, they, they do it. They want justice and also because, uh, they wanna be someone who helps other people, who helps pave a way.

So, um, right, right. That's what a positive is. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. I was a survivor of, um, pretty severe sex. As a toddler. [00:27:00]

 Pamela Takefman: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And, uh, I remember owning the shame myself for a very long time to even bringing it up would make me shake and get teary and all sorts of stuff. And it, I was watching Dexter season five around the story of Lumen and his rage over her, her being, you know, it was this gang rap is basically what she experienced in that, that I realized that he would've been enraged around my situation.

That it was that, and that, and that it was. I was not in charge of my life. Other people were in charge of my life. And they made really, really bad decisions. You, and at that moment, it felt like literally the shame that I experienced internally became a Like a mantle. Like a cloak. 

 Pamela Takefman: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: And I could feel it literally slide off.

Mm. I could feel it. Like, I don't, this isn't mine. I didn't, I didn't ask for this. Yeah. Didn't. I didn't, I didn't, you know, contrive of any of this situation. This was something that just, that happened to me. Yes. And, and it really was for me, extremely empowering. But yeah, that woman in, in France, I just thought way to go.

Way to go. Wow. [00:28:00] I just thought the bravery of her was an incredible, amazing, I, I think Cassie's testimony amazing. Was incredibly brave to be in that courtroom day after day, staring him down, eight months pregnant, geez, eight 

 Pamela Takefman: months pregnant. Yeah. Like she was, and I, you know. When that came down, that verdict came down.

You know, I felt for her. I, you know, I feel for women of color everywhere who feel that they're not being believed. Um, but, you know, all it takes, I think are a few people to really say. We believe you. A lot of 

Dr. Kerry: us believed her. We all believed her. Yeah. An enormous amount of us believed her. Yes. And I, in fact, that was one of the things as I saw a poor outpouring right afterwards was, we believe you, Cassie.

Yes. Yeah. What We know what you went through. We understand. I mean, even that tape of the hotel like, geez, where he, man, it was brutal. They brutal. Brutal. So, you know, let's, let's jump over to the podcast extra and talk about if, if someone thinks [00:29:00] they're being trafficked, what, what's the first steps they should do, you know, what do they, what, what are the criteria even to consider?

Right? Let's just kind of break it down in a very practical sense, but how can people find out more about you or contact you if they're interested? Sure, sure. 

 Pamela Takefman: Um, so I would head over to mco law.com. And, um, that's our, our firm's website. Chat to, you know, click on my bio. It's Pamela Tack. If you could talk to, uh, Carol Mechon also who is our incredible, uh, she's known as a cult warrior, cult slayer.

But you know, our, our work isn't, isn't limited to cults and, um, you know, we, we kind of understand a lot of the dynamics over there. So happy to happier chat if anyone would like to. 

Dr. Kerry: Alright. Thank you so much, Pamela. I really appreciate this discussion today. 

 Pamela Takefman: Thank you. 

Dr. Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode.

Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry [00:30:00] McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club@kerrymcavoyphd.com and I'll see you back here next week.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

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