Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Devastated After Betrayal? Here's Why: The Hidden Abuse That No One Talks About

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 4 • Episode 228

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 Ever wonder why betrayal feels so devastating—like more than just cheating?  

This week, Hope Ray joins Dr. Kerry to introduce the concept of betrayal violence: the intersection of infidelity and abuse that most people don't recognize. We explore how sexual secrets strip partners of their consent and autonomy.

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MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA INTERVIEW 

🔹 When you're the victim: How do you know if you have the whole truth? Hope shares practical guidance on finding trauma-informed support and determining whether your relationship can truly heal or if it's time to leave. 

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MORE ABOUT HOPE RAY 

Website: https://www.hoperay.com  

TikTok: @HopeRayTherapy 

HOPE RAY is a licensed therapist specializing in betrayal trauma and relationship repair after infidelity. She works extensively with couples navigating the aftermath of sexual secrets and deception, helping partners understand the abusive dynamics created by hidden betrayal. 

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism.

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Devastated After Betrayal? Here's Why: The Hidden Abuse That No One Talks About

Dr. Kerry: [00:00:00] You can't truly consent to something if you're not being upfront and honest about it. If your intention was never to have something long term and this other individual was only looking for something long term and would've swiped past you, 

Hope Ray: so when you are having sexual affairs or hiring sex workers and then.

Boing, your partner unknowingly to the potential for STIs, or if you're working to conceive a child with your partner, spending lots of money and time and energy in IVF treatments, but your partner doesn't know what's going on behind closed doors, that means that they may have made different decisions if they knew what they needed to know.

What I believe is a thread you can trace through all of it, regardless of someone's diagnosis or brain structure or whatever. Is that they have issues with four things.

Dr. Kerry: When there's been a massive betrayal like infidelity, does it mean the [00:01:00] relationship is automatically over? Well, to address that question today, well, Ray joins me to talk about betrayal violence and how to know when there's actual real hope for more. So Hope Ray, thank you so much for joining me today. I came across you recently from a friend who introduced us because a similar interest in actually sex addiction.

But I found out that you have this focus on betrayal violence and I'm, which intrigued me. So tell me a little bit about that and how you got interested in this work. 

Hope Ray: Sure. Well, betrayal violence is, you know, a phrase, a language tool to help describe a specific type of detriment that occurs, uh, when abuse and infidelity kinda.

Collide. So you know, infidelity is egregious behavior, whether that be in physical form or a years long hidden pornography issue. Whatever kind of [00:02:00] sexual secrets are being kept from the partner, it usually unfolds in quite a bit of deception, some gaslighting, exploitation of the partner's time, trust, even spiritual convictions, and ultimately.

Essential information gets kept from this partner that is related to the partner's safety, wellbeing. And so because of that type of, uh, you know, impairment to one's own consent and autonomy in the relationship, you know, we look at that as abuse. But sometimes the traditional domestic violence rhetoric that we have doesn't really, I.

Seem like it fits. For instance, some of these people who are, you know, secretly and repeatedly violating fidelity may not actually be set out to, you know. Establish a whole regime of control over their partner. I'm not minimizing in any way their egregious behavior or their abusive behavior, but there can [00:03:00] be different reasons for keeping essential secrets from your partner that still unfold in a lot of detriment and abusive, uh, you know, experience, uh, victimization for the partner.

And so sometimes these secrets are kept because, you know. They don't, these people don't wanna deal with the consequences or they wanna prolong their behavior, uh, or they're scared of their partner's reaction. Whatever self preserving effort they may be making in trying to keep these secrets, they're unfolding into deceptive.

Abusive exploitative behavior that whether or not, you know, they intended it to become that it does. And so they've made every choice at that point to keep, uh, you know, this kind of information from their partner. So how did I get started talking about this? Well, I realized that a lot of times people who work with the population, uh, that identifies themselves as sex addicts [00:04:00] or, you know, populations of infidelity.

They were often reaching for terminology to help describe this abuse, but sometimes that terminology gets kind of cherry picked or you know, they kind of piecemeal apply some of the power and control wheel, the Duluth model. Um. Elements of coercive control are certainly present if somebody's keeping sexual secrets from their partner, but it may be in only one domain of the partnership.

In other words, there isn't perhaps financial abuse, physical or verbal, um, assault or other forms of abuse going on. And that doesn't mean it's any less significant. My hope in using language like. Betrayal violence is to really help people who've experienced victimization in this way to be able to identify it.

Somebody doesn't have to be an outright narcissist or an outright abuser to still produce abusive and detrimental behavior. [00:05:00] And so, you know, this was, you know, my, my hope. To help clarify that if you're experiencing deception and gaslighting and even exploitation around your partner's secret sexual behavior, you can call that abuse.

In fact, it matches up with the definition of violence because of the detriment it causes and the way in which it impairs your consent and your ability to really know what it is that you're dealing with, what your relational reality truly is. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, there's a whole lot in there and I, so I wanted to take it apart and look at two big pieces of what you just said.

The first piece is, what I heard you say is that it's a abusive, but the reason people become abusive are for a whole variety of. Causes. And some of them may be rather innocuous, like they have a bad habit that they're ashamed of and that they just don't wanna talk about or anyone to know about, and then they, then it [00:06:00] drives behavior then is harmful to their partner all the way to those who are in a more of an exploitative or predatory way, seeking out to have, um.

Dominance and control, you know, over their partner and is deliberately ex I'm back to the word, using exploited, but exploiting the situation in order to get their way. So yeah, kind of describe that gamut, that, that, how people step into it. 'cause I, I have a feeling and may, I don't know maybe if I should say this or not, but I, that some of us inadvertently at one point or another in our life may have inadvertently done some of this without really realizing it.

But then there's others who, they're purposefully, intentionally doing this. This is a way for them to maintain control over their, their. What they sort of see is their entitlement to do what they wanna do when they wanna do it. 

Hope Ray: Yeah. Such a great question Kerry. So, you know, I work with a lot of couples who are wanting to rebuild their marriages after Betrayal.

This may have involved emotional or physical affairs, you know, longstanding patterns of pornography use or [00:07:00] other types, even commercial sex acts, all sorts of secret behaviors and whether or not the. The Fidelity violator identifies as, you know, an addict or, uh, a deeply traumatized person, or even a narcissist.

One thing that is pretty true across the board is that they hid their behavior, they kept it secret. Mm-hmm. And so not only is the partner dealing with the pain of all the betrayal, once, you know, the partner finally learns that the betrayal was there, but also these layers of, you know, uh. Lies, deceptions, uh, you know, forms of manipulation.

Um, having had their domestic labor exploited while their partner was cheating on them, say, you know, staying late at work or on a business trip. Right. And, um. You know, their spiritual convictions also get roped in there. You know, how are you gonna trust me if you can't forgive me? You know, stuff like that.

Mm 

Dr. Kerry: mm 

Hope Ray: Uh, or this is just how relationships, you know, go after a while. We have a lot of kids. Things are stressful, you know, we can't, um, [00:08:00] expect that, you know, our relationship's gonna feel as good as it used to. I don't know why you're always complaining thinking I'm cheating on you. This is just how it.

Unfolds, we're busy, you know, you're overreacting. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Hope Ray: That kinda stuff. It, you know, people make choices to talk that way, to act that way. Uh, so this type of abuse is certainly a choice and it's no less problematic. Uh, however, for most of the couples that I work with, this is the first. Extension of power and control in an otherwise egalitarian relationship.

This, the hiding of the sexual secrets is really the first use of power and control enacted against the partner. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Hope Ray: And so because of that, you know, the women, typically, they're women who've been betrayed that I'm working with, they're saying, you know, my husband has been abusive to me, but I, I read about domestic violence and I actually don't.

Really see him represented well by that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, it's hard for me to feel like I resonate, you know, with the material they hand out at the domestic violence shelter. Uh, but I see the psychological [00:09:00] elements of it. I see, you know, the damage. Um, so is this abuse and I just hate to see people question.

That because it truly is, and it promotes this insufficient realization for people who are acting that way. Uh, you know, because they think, well, I, I don't intend to dominate and, you know, demolish and diminish my partner. Um, you know, I love her and they often do. 

Dr. Kerry: I, in fact, I had a conversation with somebody if it was a friend, and, and it actually is my, my massage therapist, and he was talking about how.

How difficult it is to get dates. He's a lot younger than me and we just would happen to have this conversation in general. And, and I said that you can't truly consent to something if you're not being upfront and honest about it. And he happened to mention about, we were, we were talking about the fact that how many people put, for example, on dating profiles, that they're looking for something relate, you know, ongoing a relationship when really they're looking for something casual.

And then he replied to me, well, how else could we get a date if we don't do that? [00:10:00]

Hope Ray: Hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: My thought was Yeah, but you don't realize that you, in that moment, you stripped that person of consent. 

Hope Ray: Right? 

Dr. Kerry: Because you're entering into this with a different assumption, 

right. 

Dr. Kerry: That your, if your intention was never to have something long-term and this other individual was only looking for something long-term or would've swiped past you.

Hope Ray: Yep. 

Dr. Kerry: Now they've already entered a relationship on false information, which is, is, is, is misleading. And I think, I think this is where I'm going with it. I think a lot of us discount those types of deceit. I mean, that even they were like, well, I don't mean to be, I mean, I, I kind of hope that it turns into something long term.

You know, maybe if I really like this person, you know, see how we justify that. 

Hope Ray: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Or I actually had someone say to me, well, if I, if you don't know, how does it really hurt you? 

Hope Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. So I, it's amazing to me how in that, in that one end, when it's something maybe you kind of fell into, you didn't mean to, but you're now starting to create it a false narrative.

You're misleading your [00:11:00] partner and they're being betrayed, but they may not know it, that it is, that you're, you're harming them. What we minimize that. Mm-hmm. 

Hope Ray: Absolutely, and I think it's easy, you know, to kind of bypass the abuse aspect of it because sometimes these people really claim a certain type of pathology that may be true to them.

They may have a huge trauma history. Uh, they may have some neuro differences. That, you know, have caused them to kind of latch and attach to certain behaviors and they sexual, they, they've sexualized their coping over the years or, you know, there could be some sad origin stories. There can also be some very, uh, you know, blatant just bad sexual decisions that are exploitative mm-hmm.

Hurtful. Um, all of it becomes problematic when somebody continues doing it. Uh, while. Maintaining a relationship with a committed partner. And if that commitment, uh, is, you know, expressed, then that means there's some form of fidelity contract in place. Even non-monogamous [00:12:00] relationships have some bounds for fidelity.

Otherwise, there's no such thing as commitment. If there's no rules there, there's no real boundaries to a relationship. Right. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. That's what, that's what amazed me 'cause I actually met some swingers and found out they have a lot of rules. Yeah. 

Hope Ray: Yeah. So when you are, you know, say having sexual affairs or, um, you know, hiring sex workers, uh, and then, you know, exposing your partner unknowingly to the potential for STIs, uh, or if you're working to conceive a child with your partner, spending lots of money and, uh, time and energy in IVF treatments or something like that, but your partner doesn't know what's going on, you know?

Behind closed doors. That means that they may have made different decisions if they knew what they needed to know. Yeah. And so it, it harms the agency, uh, but it also sets people up for tremendous risks. I've worked with people who have really serious issues in their secret life and they've remortgaged their [00:13:00] homes in order to pay for their acting out behaviors.

Uh, that financial. Detriment is felt by both members of the couple, except only one of them knows about it. Sometimes people move to a different state with their partner or quit their job to support their partner's career advancement decisions they would not necessarily make if they knew what they needed to know.

So, you know. Partners who are being betrayed and don't know about it. Sometimes this goes on for years or decades. They are likely to be contributing benevolently and freely to the relationship, investing in it in ways they would not otherwise if they knew what they needed to know. And so this not only sets people way back in their own career development or um, you know.

Their self-actualization, but they are also at risk to acquire things like STIs along the way or to participate in IVF treatments, trying to conceive another child with a person who they don't know is secretly betraying them. And so, you know, these are decisions [00:14:00] that they would've chose differently.

They would've come to the table, uh, for, for these opportunities very differently. If they knew what they needed to know, they might have made different choices and they're. Really corrupted from their own agency and being able to do that because their, their relational reality is really governed by their partner who's keeping these secrets from them.

Dr. Kerry: Exactly. 'cause we can only make information based upon what we know at the time on which to make that decision. You know, it's interesting 'cause there's, there was a video that went very viral about, someone described what betrayal was like and they, I don't know if you've seen it was, they said, they described it as like being pushed outta of a airplane and surviving the, surviving the fall.

And what I've noticed is that we, there's two seemingly, two reactions to betrayal and I'd be kind of curious to dig into this with you. One is. Most people tend to say it's not that big of a deal because it's so commonplace, which is sort of a sad thing to say. 

Hope Ray: Sure. 

Dr. Kerry: So they don't, they don't see the devastation of it.[00:15:00]

And, and I almost wonder why we don't more deeply appreciate what, what, what integrity means and what, what happens inside an intimacy of a relationship that we don't value that world better. 

Hope Ray: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And then the second thing that I, I've noticed is that. When you are the one that's being betrayed, there's so much shame that, that it creates this incredible isolation that it locks you up from the ability to talk about it to anyone.

So yeah. Let's talk about the first part first. The why we as a society tend to diminish these. I mean, I have my theory, but I'd love to hear what you're thinking. Why we don't value the pain more. 

Hope Ray: Yeah. Well, I think we're quick to kind of summarize Fidelity violators as, um, you know. Narcissists or sex addicts or just, you know, pathological people, um, or 

Dr. Kerry: boys Will be boys is what I was thinking.

Hope Ray: Yeah. It sort 

Dr. Kerry: of just like, well it's just, you know, it's what they do. 

Hope Ray: Yeah. In [00:16:00] modern society, that mentality certainly still exists and, you know, cheaters never change and all this kind of stuff, which I think generally in. In our culture today, those things might be a little outdated. Um, I know, you know, dozens and dozens of couples that are really a good match for each other.

Some of them are high school sweethearts, some of them own businesses together. They have a legacy of family. They're. Well into this beautiful retirement dream. They have grandkids, uh, I mean they have legacy and just to, um, all of a sudden have to leave because you've learned that there's been some form of cheating, uh, even though it's been extremely abusive, uh, to, to be in a relationship with someone you don't actually know.

A lot of women, particularly, are wanting to foresee if there's anything that could be salvaged there. It's never an easy journey. Um, and it's not weak. In fact, I think it's quite strong. But these women often feel really missed [00:17:00] by some of the, the rhetoric out there that says, you know, if you've been abused, you have to leave because abusers don't change.

And, uh, the truth is they have experienced abuse, but it's, it's not well articulated really anywhere in a, in a way that really can. Centers down around the abuse surrounding secrets of infidelity. And so I just have seen this gap where there's an intersection between unfaithfulness infidelity issues and the use of deception and gaslighting.

Um, also exploitation. But what's absent from that is other forms of abuse. Uh, there may be some ancillary financial abuse given, you know, how some of the secrets, uh, involved. Using money that the partner didn't know about, but we don't have these other forms of abuse going on. If they're present, then you have a larger, a, a larger framework of abuse going on.

There's coercive control and the infidelity is just one piece of that. But I've worked with numerous people over the years where there really [00:18:00] isn't abuse. Elsewhere. And that doesn't mean that the abuse that is present is any less damaging or serious. It just means that it's relegated to this, this secret sex life that somebody's been maintaining for years.

And it's highly problematic, deeply betraying, extremely detrimental. Uh, but at the end of the day, a lot of people do wanna see if there's a way for honesty and integrity to get installed. Uh, if, if relational repair can happen, a lot of people are. Are wanting to opt for that before they just outright leave.

And so they feel missed sometimes because, um, you know, it's not really accepted by culture to be cheated on and try for your marriage. It's deeply shameful. Uh, look at the way we treated Hillary Clinton. You know, we just decided that she only. Date, uh, because she wanted political power or whatever the narrative was.

Who knows if that's true, right? But I know that for a lot of the women I work with, uh, it's nothing of the sort. They love these people and they feel loved by them. Believe it or not. [00:19:00]

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It's alm It's almost like we want a simple answer. 

Hope Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And, and so we, we default to either this is a good person and you must have got it wrong.

So we de dismiss the victim's experience and, and minimize it. Yes. Or we go to the opposite, say aside and say, well then they're beyond redemption and you should get out. You're right. I, I'm curious. When those are sincerely working on it, what percentage actually stay together? 

Hope Ray: Well, my, my metrics are gonna be skewed on that, Kerry, because I run a program where I work with couples who are, you know, in a more advanced state of healing.

So they've already moved into a, a place that feels somewhat worth all the hard work. Mm-hmm. Um, so I would say a lot of couples stay together. Okay. Um, but also my results would be skewed there because people. Would seek out my services when they're wanting to repair. So the couples that have already divorced or moved into that Erritory right away?

Yeah. They self-selected. Yeah. I'm not seeing them. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. I think I read and I don't know, I don't, I don't quote me. I'd have to go [00:20:00] look it up, but I think it's roughly like 40%. I mean, it's higher than we would expect actually to stay. Sure, 

Hope Ray: sure. 

Dr. Kerry: I know that I, I, I, I saw it minimally in the office when I was doing counseling, but those that I did see generally were working to, to keep, stay together.

They generally. We're weren't trying to separate. Yeah. It, it was, you know, they had intentions of trying to make it work. So, but, but, so here's the bigger issues. How do you know if this is a relationship you should stay in or not? Because I think, I think that where the danger is, there are some people then that will.

Because leaving is so hard and risky and it's gonna cost so much of all sorts of things that it's, most of us are pretty reluctant to do it. Mm-hmm. But there may be times in which there, it's dangerous to stay. 

Hope Ray: Absolutely.

Dr. Kerry: So, so how do we know when you're, when they're, this person is sincerely making an effort to repair versus when?

When this is actually, it's maybe you're [00:21:00] being manipulated. 

Hope Ray: That's the tricky part, isn't it? Because see mm-hmm. People who've deceived and gaslighted, uh, have developed a default mode of doing such, and that means they've burned bridges with their words, their own actions and behavior. Uh, you know, we're essentially weaponized, uh, in, in the pursuit of keeping secrets.

And so they can't just fix the way they talk. They can't just fix, you know, uh, the empathy gap that they've, you know. Had, um, they have to change from within. Now I work, my, my main thing and my main joy in my work is working with men who are really on the precipice of deep transformational change. It is possible, uh, but we're, we're not talking about people who have.

Pathology that is untreatable. We're talking about people with trauma histories, people maybe with addictions, people with narcissistic tendencies and traits for sure. Uh, but the desire they have to address those [00:22:00] things, um, is really driven from within. It's not just boxes that they're checking in order to keep their spouse.

There is a lot of men in my program, for instance, who are currently separated or. Divorcing, they've already lost what it is they were hoping not to lose. Mm-hmm. And yet they continue on. And so what are they doing? They're bolstering their sense of self. Their, their masculinity they feel has been built on false pretenses.

They want wellness. They want freedom in their own brains and in their hearts and their souls. Um, they want to refurbish themselves because they themselves were sick of living that way. And so people can be redeemed, you know, and, um. The signs of that are often slow. Uh, and anything fast in my opinion is never really a, a lasting hallmark feature of change.

Yeah. Uh, but the growth should continually trend upward. And one thing that I think is really common amongst the men who really make it there is that they constantly refresh. They don't let. Their recovery get boring or their [00:23:00] healing gets stagnant. You know, they, they seek new material, they press forward, they mo they carry on to become, you know, more deeply emotional and healthy and healed.

And, um, and they can become, you know, fantastic partners as a result of all this introspection. More honest, more based in integrity than say, other men who haven't. Made those efforts 'cause they've really not been pressed to. 

Dr. Kerry: Right. But you make a key distinction that I think is very powerful and I wanna highlight, and that is there's motivation and it's not motivation of the partner, it's their motivation.

Mm-hmm. And that they're taking the initiative and, and to do the work and, and. What sometimes happens though is that there are the, that there is those that look like they're doing that, but if you look, there's no actual real work going on. And then there's those who actually do the work. So I think that that's a Thank you for saying that.

'cause that's a really big key piece to this. 

Hope Ray: Mm-hmm. And it's very hard to decipher, you know? Yeah. It is someone's [00:24:00]motivation. I, I actually would say that a lot of the men I work with. Don't always have motivation, and they choose to overcome that anyway. Does that make sense? So it's not always fun to evolve and to heal yourself, uh, and to actualize yourself, but they press forward anyway.

They know what matters. Uh, they have wisdom. Uh, they're guided by an internal drive to live a life that's much more loving, present, whole, uh, they wanna be good men. 

Dr. Kerry: It. But that's different than what, I guess what I'm thinking when I use the word motivation, I'm thinking of the ones that say, no, I, I really want this.

I've never worked harder. But then there's no call to the therapist. 

Hope Ray: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kerry: You know, or, or the next time there, the, they, there's a triggering moment where there, there's a question of trust is broken. Mm-hmm. Like, hey, I, you know, we, we, there's what happened to that money in the bank account? Then they're like, can you can, do you, are you ever gonna forgive me for this?

I mean, to me, [00:25:00] that's, that's a lack of motivation. This is somebody who's, who's pretty defensive and with lot, not lots of introspection. I do that, 

Hope Ray: that's a real issue of entitlement. You know, a sense of, uh, deservedness that says, you know, I should have earned your trust by now. You're on my timeline. Yeah.

Um, there's a certain way I, I see things should go, you know, and that's something that most men that I work with actually have to tangle with because it's there. Yeah. It undergirds that ability to become secretive and duplicitous in the first place. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. You mentioned, and, and you said it more than once, and I was kind of curious on this too, is that you mentioned that they may have narcissistic traits.

Do you think, I know I'm, this is kind of a controversial question, do you think a person's ability to step out. On a relationship or to create a secret is actually is entitlement or, or a expression of superiority? 

Hope Ray: I think it's four things combined together. Okay. I, I have over the years sussed out the, the things that seem to [00:26:00] undergird one's ability to become duplicitous, even in the context of.

The family they love the most. In other words, to be the most, uh, deeply betraying, uh, to present the worst version of themselves to the people that they actually hold the dearest, there's something going on beneath that surface. It's not always the same diagnosis. It wouldn't always be the same type of trauma history, attachment style.

I mean, there's many. Doorways through which someone can enter this hallway of what I call abusive behavior and communication. And essentially what they're doing here is they're maintaining a relationship with their significant other while secretly, repeatedly violating fidelity. And then using this abusive behavior and communication deception, gaslighting, exploiting the time and trust of the partner, they're doing all that.

Uh. To maintain secrets to avoid the natural consequences of their behavior. Maybe to have their cake and eat it too, and just be able to keep going. What? Whatever it is. Yeah. It's never, okay. It's not noble [00:27:00] and it always results in this pattern of abuse unfolding and so, you know, they can get here for a variety of reasons.

Dr. Kerry: The question is, is it entitlement or superiority? 

Hope Ray: Oh, right. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. You said there's four things that you see that typically lead to this, 

Hope Ray: and so what I believe is. A thread you can trace through all of it, regardless of someone's diagnosis or brain structure or whatever, is that they have issues with four things detachment.

Incongruence regression and entitlement. Those are the four things that have consistently always showed up and they interplay with one another. These are issues that often, uh, form early in childhood, kind of as maladaptive character traits. Uh, often kind of for very sad reasons, you know, neglect or, uh, even abuse in their childhood, but not always.

Sometimes it was because they were the golden boy or the the star athlete and didn't know how to deal with pressure, whatever. They may have been well resourced and very well loved as a child, but [00:28:00] nonetheless, uh, entitlement is one that is, is always there and with entitlement is a sense of deservedness that I, you know, I worry that.

My masculinity is gonna get squashed if I don't allow myself certain opportunities or if I'm mistreated. I have to rally against that. I have to, um, counteract that because I have, you know, a, a fragile sense of worth and value. And so when they can tackle that and look at how to anchor in a more rooted sense of.

Dignity, then they don't have to, um, worry so much about how people see them. They don't have to manage appearances so much and be so duplicitous and incongruent. These traits, these maladaptive character traits all work together and I just, you know, see them across the board. Now, some people with entitlement might have, you know.

Outright entitlement issues that correspond with the [00:29:00] diagnostic criteria for narcissism. Uh, but that's not always the case. In fact, I think it's much more rare, at least in the population I work with than you might think. 

Dr. Kerry: So define each one of those four items. Sure. 

Hope Ray: Well, I call this dire detachment. Okay.

Is the first letter, you know, this is the idea that you either passively pull into yourself and have kinda your own private inner world where you don't process who you are with anyone. Uh, the more active version of detachment is to pull away from yourself and dive into people pleasing, flaunting, um, you know, meeting everyone else's needs, but not bringing yourself into the equation.

So you're still unknowable in both instances. That's detachment. Incongruence is, you know, kind of like Matthew Perry, our beloved Chandler from friends who, you know, died in his hot tub after years of battling addiction and going on interviews, you know, on national tv, talking about how well he was doing.

Mm-hmm. Uh, but he wasn't, he wasn't doing well. He was living Inc. Congruently just picking and choosing [00:30:00] parts of himself to display. Regression is a little more tricky. I mean, from a high level bird's eye view, we're looking at emotionally regressing, um, or sloughing off with responsibility. Not holding yourself reco accountable to, you know, domestic tasks or the, the mental load of the family that you're involved in, that you helped create.

Mm-hmm. Um, just kind of, you know. Uh, releasing oneself into entertainment and distraction and therefore avoiding what they really need to be doing. Mm-hmm. And then there's entitlement. So, you know, a sense of real deservedness that, you know, I, I need to be treated a certain way, and if I'm not, that says something, um, that I don't like to feel.

And the truth is, we want people to be able to feel okay about who they are as, as long as they're walking and integrity and things walking in line with their values. Regardless of how others perceive them. Right. So all four of those really work together. They usually develop pretty early in, you know.

Adolescents and they outlive their value. They may have at one, at one time [00:31:00] been productive or helpful, but they outlive their value when somebody's trying to rebuild trust after bringing a lot of damage into the relationship. 

Dr. Kerry: Right, right. This has been a fascinating discussion. I really deeply appreciate it.

I would love to continue this. Jumping over to the podcast extra. Let's talk about what happens when you're the one who's the vic. Who's discovered there is a betrayal and there's this devastation. What kind of steps should you take to start your own healing in, in healing process, and even to determine if this relationship is sellable or not?

So we'll go over and do that, but how can people learn more about. Uh, betrayal, violence and more about your work. 

Hope Ray: Sure. Thank you. Um, my website is hope ray.com. Uh, I'm on social media particularly TikTok. I like TikTok. That's where, where I got to learn and get familiar with your work. So hope right there is my handle there.

Dr. Kerry: All right. Thank you so much for today. This was really rich. What a great conversation. 

Hope Ray: Thanks, Kerry. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. 

Dr. Kerry: Are you following me on TikTok, [00:32:00] Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club@kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

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