Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Gone No Contact? Why Some Parents Have to Push Away Their Kids

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 4 • Episode 230

Share episode

Why do loving parents sometimes push away the very children they'd do anything for? 

This week, Catherine Hickem joins Dr. Kerry to unpack one of the most painful dynamics in modern families—parental estrangement. We explore how unspoken expectations create invisible walls, why parents mistake control for connection, and how grief work (yes, grief work) is the secret to letting your adult children become who they actually are, not who you needed them to be. 

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT 

Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA INTERVIEW 

🔹 Stuck waiting for certainty before you leave? 

Catherine and Dr. Kerry tackle the cognitive dissonance trap—why you'll never feel "ready" to go, how to make the hardest decision of your life without clarity, and why almost no one regrets leaving once they finally do. 

👉 Get immediate access to this extended interview: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

MORE ABOUT CATHERINE HICKEM 

CATHERINE HICKEM, LCSW, is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, executive and family coach, and founder of Parenting Adult Children Today. With over 40 years of experience and a master's degree in clinical social work from the University of Louisville, Catherine has dedicated her career to helping parents navigate the often-overlooked complexities of raising adult children. She is the author of Regret-Free Parenting and specializes in estrangement recovery, teaching parents how to release expectations, grieve unmet dreams, and rebuild relationships grounded in acceptance rather than control. 

Submit your question to be answered on air here!

Dr Kerry’s Resources

Follow Dr. Kerry!

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism.

Disclaimer: This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseli...

Gone No Contact? Why Some Parents Have to Push Away Their Kids

 

Catherine Hickem: [00:00:00] If we don't grieve, we'll get mad and we'll punish and try to control, and all of our dysfunctional behavior comes out during that time. But if we grieve, we can actually then, right now the current staff is 26% of adults between 18 and 40 do not have a relationship with at least one parent. That is very significant, and it's significant for the relationship between that adult child and the.

Parent, but what they're not paying attention to is, 

Dr. Kerry: so what are some of the reasons that people are cutting each other off? 

Catherine Hickem: Well, you'd be surprised actually. I mean, it's, it's been very much since the pandemic has.

Dr. Kerry: There's a growing epidemic of parental estrangement, author and clinician. Katherine Hickum offers us some insight into why adult children are going no contact. Thank you so much, Katherine, for joining me today. Why don't you tell me a little bit about how you got interested in [00:01:00] parental estrangement?

Catherine Hickem: Well, I'm a therapist. I've been a therapist for 40 years, and my specialty was parenting. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: And so initially when my kids were little, I focused on the age that my children happened to be. But as they grew, I became increasingly aware that. Relationships changed significantly when our children grow up and become adults.

And I was watching it happen around me. I was watching, you know, trends and issues and it was like, this is really, really painful. And, but no one's talking about it. And that was many years ago. I mean, you know, my, my children are 39 and 40, so, um, it's, I've been a parent of an adult child a long time, but my awareness.

Has been a long time as well, and it's gotten worse instead of better. And that's of great concern because I think we have some significant culture issues that are really impacting and playing into that. And so, um, it's really my heart because I think, you know, our children are, um, such a significant part of, of [00:02:00] our hearts and our lives.

And when we have estrangement, there's a lot of pain involved and, um. I just, that makes me really sad. So if I can do something to help, I wanna do something to help that. 

Dr. Kerry: That's wonderful. What have you noticed? It's been getting worse. 

Catherine Hickem: The estrangement part that people truly cut off each other. Um, right now the current stat is 26% of adults between 18 and 40 do not have a relationship with at least one parent That is.

Very significant, and it's significant for the relationship between that adult child and the parent. But what they're not paying attention to is that is setting precedence for what normal is when conflict comes for the next generation. Instead of saying, we're gonna figure out a way to work things out, we'll just cut off people.

That's how we'll handle problems. And that's not a healthy way to resolve problems in most circumstances. [00:03:00] So it's concerning to me, not only for the current relationship, but for the future generational relationships because we're redefining what normal is and sometimes when we redefine it, we make some very drastic damaging decisions.

Dr. Kerry: So what are some of the reasons that people are cutting each other off for over? 

Catherine Hickem: Well, you'd be surprised actually. I mean, it's, it's been very much since the pandemic has been about politics, that has been one values, um, have been very differing. Are very different. And when instead of it just saying, well, I'm gonna let you think what you think and you, I'm gonna think what I think it's been.

If you think that way, then you're not welcome here anymore. I mean, they've taken it to another whole level of rejection instead of understanding or seeking to be curious. And so something has shifted where people are not interested in the relationship. If they don't line up with agreeing with [00:04:00] each other, and there's some real danger in that, right?

It's like, why can't we know how to communicate? Especially we have years of history. Why can't we agree to disagree and still love each other and accept each other? But that option isn't on the table. Evidently, right now, for a huge, you know, 26% is a huge percentage. 

Dr. Kerry: It is a one out of four. That's huge.

Catherine Hickem: That's really, really big and that has a lot of implications. So I think we have politics, we have values, we have, um, you know, the whole idea of what we define as normal versus what maybe parents have defined as normal. Those are, um, sometimes real sticking points and parents. Don't understand. They, they don't understand that when their children leave home, they go out into the world.

That was very different than the world they left when they left home. So I think part of this has to do with parents. Um. [00:05:00] Have pretty strict ideas over what they think should be. And I think when adult children go out into the world and explore things for themselves, they come back with some answers that don't line up with what mom and dad think should be, and therefore the class ensues.

Um, I mean, there's a lot of different reasons why we can have unhealthy relationships, right? So some of it has to do with the parents weren't healthy. And they created an environment where the children were raised in a very unhealthy environment, and now they expect them to respond, um, as if everything was, you know.

Peachy cream, and it's not, it's not healthy. So this, this word called expectations is one of the biggest problems and the parent, adult child relationship. And the problem is parents don't understand. They still carry a plethora of expectations to that relationship. And what they also failed to remember is these adult children [00:06:00] lived in that environment probably for 18 or 19 years.

So. They know very well what the parents think and believe because they've heard them in that home for 18 years. Make statements or judgements about other people. And so therefore, if they're guilty of doing something that they know their parents didn't approve of when they were living home, they're not gonna tell their parents that they're guilty of the same thing they didn't approve of.

So now we have, we're living hidden lives, and that's what I'm seeing. Adult children live very hidden lives from their adult parents and the data supports that. Um. That's the frightening part is that there's a separation that if I tell you, you'll reject me. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: And that's really painful. So kids won't even put it out there to be rejected.

Because to be rejected by a parent is a core, core value [00:07:00] pain that is hard to get rid of and heal from. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: Can it be done? Absolutely. But you gotta be willing to do the work, but it's painful. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, 

Catherine Hickem: so they just don't even risk it. They won't even take the risk of trying. So they just keep their lives quiet and private and separate.

Um, I have a, I'll have a quick story. Carrie, my daughter was a, between her junior and senior year of college and one of her really good friends came to see us and Jason said to me, Mrs. Hickam, did you know that Tiffany is the only friend that I have that is the same in front of her parents as she is behind their back?

And I was like, really? I said, well, what about you, Jason? Are you the same? And he said, oh no, not at all. And I said, well, what's that about? And he said, Mrs. ZI know what my parents expect me to be and what they want me to be. And so when I go home, I become the kid they want. But when I walk back out the door, I become who I really am because when I'm not who they want me to [00:08:00] be, my mom cries and my dad gets mad.

And so I just don't want the drama. They don't, they want what they want, so I love them. So I'm just, I, I just adapt. But I live a very different life than what they know, and I'm just gonna keep it that way. I was really sad. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. And I was sitting here and asking myself, do my kids behave differently?

I'm very close to my three sons, extremely close. Um, we actually, everybody in the group, there's three of them and their age is, uh, 34 to 28 years old, and they're all men. Um, and, um, their highlight is that every week we meet on Fridays for what we call dinner at a movie. And so we have this rich, and each of us says, that is our highlight of the week.

We can't wait for Friday to be together. And I don't know, I think that we've traveled together. We're close friends. I think they are. Who they are is who they are. Right. Which is really wonderful. But you're right, it's taken me, I mean, they do things that I don't necessarily agree with, and they live, they, they have lifestyles that I [00:09:00] always, sometimes get really worried about.

But I, but I've learned that, that, that I've had to change mentally and see them as, as other people. Right. Like I wouldn't butt into my neighbor's business on their life. Right. It's take, it's taken that kind of shift for me to say that I need to also respect that this is their life. They're another adult.

So, but it's hard. So that was my next question, I guess as, as I was listening to you, is what do you think has caused this change? Do you think this is just, is partly a, a shift on both? Generations a shift in the, like I'm thinking millennial and Gen Zs versus the Boomers and Gen Xs. Do you think there's something that kind of has profoundly shifted about expectations of relationships in the context of family?

Catherine Hickem: Well, I, I think one of the big challenges has really on the parent side, and that's because I think that they think that their children think the way that they do. We can't make that assumption. We have to be respectful of the fact our children are their own people [00:10:00] and they're gonna come to different conclusions.

And we may have raised them a certain way, but that doesn't mean that they've embraced the way we raised them. It means that, you know, they have a right to test out. Who they are and what they need and what they think and what they believe. And you're right, we're probably never gonna fully agree, but can I love, in spite of the fact that they're different, and a lot of parents feel very threatened when their children make choices that don't line up with who they thought they are.

It's very threatening to them. So they react instead of respond. They get mad instead of being curious and they feel like. They did, then they take it personally. 'cause there's a lot of ego involved in parenting, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, well if, if your kid does well, you're really proud and your kid makes a really bad mistake, then there's a lot of shame.

And it's like, you know what? When do we. Get to say if my child makes successful choices, they get credit for all that success. I'm not gonna take credit for [00:11:00] their success. That's their success. If my child has made some decisions that have complications, how come that becomes my fault and a reflection of me?

And so we can't have it both ways where I get credit for, you know, all the bad things, and then no credit for the good things. So I either get it all or I get none. Healthy says this is their lives. I simply get to continue to be a part of it, but I also need to respect the fact they're entitled to make mistakes.

They have the right to, to choose their path, and I, my job is to love them regardless of what choices that they've made, because love doesn't, isn't supposed to have conditions to it. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: But there's a lot of conditions out there, you know, about what you should do and what you shouldn't do. And I always ask, you know, parents when they'll say, oh, I don't have any expectations.

I say, well, let's talk about holidays. The first time your kid got married, did you expect to see them at Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know what I'm saying? It's [00:12:00] like, oh, right. It's the first. Like, oh yeah, 

Dr. Kerry: yeah, yeah. 

Catherine Hickem: Right. So we bring a lot of expectations that no one really realizes because we started having expectations.

The day we found out we were gonna have a baby, we began to have dreams. My son's adopted, I have a letter from his mom, and she had dreams for him, and she never held him. She never held him, never saw him. But she writes me this letter telling me what her dreams were during her pregnancy for him. Right. So they started really early on and we we're not at fault for having dreams.

I mean, I think it's wonderful that we have a vision for their future, but at some point in time, we have to release what our vision and dreams are, to let them go live out what their vision and their dreams are, 

Dr. Kerry: right? 

Catherine Hickem: And that's where the conflict or the disappointments, or the frustrations or fears come.

And that's where I think, you know. The log jam starts because we'll say, oh, there's no reason why you can't do [00:13:00] that. And the young adult may say, you don't understand. I'm not gonna, I'm not like you. I get really anxious speaking in front of a crowd. You don't have that problem. That's not who I am. Oh yeah, you could do it.

You just gotta get over it. We're not hearing, we're not listening, we're not really seeing what they're telling us We we're in. Shall we say, um, forcing our vision and our dream upon 'em, and that's when they start to shut down. And I see it with dad's an athlete. You know, like if a father, you know, thought his kid was gonna be an athlete and he is not, it's like, there's this, well, what do I do with that?

It's like you, you start to get curious about, well, what is he good at? What does he wanna do? And you join his world instead of making him join yours. So it's that a perspective, 

Dr. Kerry: but that's really hard. What you're suggesting is extremely hard because really what you're talking about is the degree that we, there's an extens, we see people's extensions of ourselves.

Catherine Hickem: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And, and [00:14:00] what's even more powerful is when you've given birth to this person and you've raised them, you really see them as an extension of yourself, which, which when you feel constrained is, I'm thinking again, as the young adult, you feel constrained. You can't be yourself. And they're even, like you said, living a second life.

Basically a secret life as a way to protect their ego or their identity. I can see then why cutoff has become a popular solution, because it's the only way to hold onto my sense of self is just simply to not have contact with the person who insists that I can, I conform to their way of being. 

Catherine Hickem: Right.

That's exactly right Carrie. And I think what we still don't understand, I think collectively as a, as a culture is development. You know, if we look at neurological development, these formation stages are extremely important. And they go well into the twenties, and so they're trying to figure out who they are, and we're over here fighting them on.

Their journey, making it harder for them instead of embracing [00:15:00] the fact they have the right to take this journey, whatever way they wanna take it. Like I said, we may not like it, we may not understand it, but can I love them regardless? And that's what they're really looking for. Do you love me because. You love me and for who I am, or do you love me for who you want me to be?

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. In fact, I got a question on one of my videos and I, I thought it was very painful. It, I, I was, I was in pain for that child. The parent wrote in and said, well, they've cut me off, so shouldn't I have the right to disinherit them? My thought was, well, then you're, you're confirming that your love is conditional, right?

That's, you're saying that unless you show up the way that I want, then I'm gonna also punish you for not being compliant or pliable. 

Catherine Hickem: Absolutely. And, and that really breaks my heart too, 'cause that there's more to that story because if a parent comes to that conclusion 

Dr. Kerry: mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: There's a lot more to that story than what we know.

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: Yeah. And there's a lot of pain that's gone on to that bridge that that parent probably has no clue about. [00:16:00]

Dr. Kerry: You know, my realm is in the abuse circles, right? And the way that I think and that, that I also lately have been talking about that, that children are, there's a degree of, um, personality development that is hardwired and also quickly formed neurologically based on a lot of complicated, in other words, it's we biosocial creature.

We're, we're not just based on nature, but we're also not based on nurture. But we really like to persist on the idea that every person has full control over who they are when they're. Born that, that basically, basically they're a blank slate and we shape them into what we want them to be, which is, that's not what happens.

And everybody who's had many kids know that every child's a little different and has different sensitivities, but it's painful and it, the amount of rage over that, even that idea that, that, how dare I suggest, or it's not me, it's research and years of research, decades of research suggest that there is at least 50% of our personalities based on heritability and things that based on.

Lots of complicating [00:17:00] biological factors, but it, it's interesting to me that there, there's so much rage on the parenting side of that. Do you have a sense of why, why we're so upset over that idea? 

Catherine Hickem: You know, we, we become very threatened when anything begins to question our. The job that we did and the role of parents, we take it very, very personally.

There's nothing more personal than that role of parenting, and therefore, what we don't wanna be blamed, right? We don't want someone to come back and say, well, you were a lousy mom or a lousy dad, and so therefore the defenses come up. And I think sometimes the defenses come up because on some level, the fear of the mistakes or the, the challenges.

They're not wanting to own or take responsibility for. Right. And so what we do is we immediately push back and the, the more person pushes back, the more likely I am to [00:18:00] say, you've got some skeletons in your closet you're not wanting to look at. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Catherine Hickem: And so I don't. When I see that kind of real intensity, that tells me how they're really scared.

So my very first question is, what is the root of your fear? What's your biggest fear right now? Because every bad decision we have ever made, Carrie root fear is at the root of it. Every single one. So when I see that incredible intensity come out to be defensive, that just tells me how frightened they are, that there may be something inside of them that is broken that they've not been willing to look at, that they didn't.

Address as they were doing their job as a parent and that some of that may have impacted and leaked out onto their child's formation that they're not wanting to look at now. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: And so there's a lot of things that get, how I say it surfaces, it heats up that we don't have enough time in this podcast probably [00:19:00] to quote, explore all those issues.

Dr. Kerry: Right. 

Catherine Hickem: But, or it's very delicate and, and I, you know, I. That makes me sad because one, they haven't forgiven themselves. Mm, and they haven't forgiven themselves because they haven't owned their part of the problem. 

Dr. Kerry: What's interesting is it's parents leaping on other parents. 

Catherine Hickem: Yeah, 

Dr. Kerry: yeah. I was attacking like, they'll literally say, well, you raised them.

People were coming in and say, yes, my, my adult son or daughter has been abusive to me. It's been horrific. I've tried everything. I'm feeling very broken and destroyed over this. I blame myself. I'm trying. Thank you so much for saying it's not all me. And then somebody goes like, well, it is all you because you raised them like, no guys, you've missed the entire point.

That was why I made this video. 

Catherine Hickem: No, that's, and it's not true. I mean, they like you, to your point. There are a lot of variables that create issues, but there's never one sole reason for how we get where we get. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: You know, we contribute to it, you know? Um, there's no doubt that we contribute because we're human.

We make mistakes. You know, there's [00:20:00] not a perfect parent around, not one, you know. I always say, except by the grace of God, go any of us, because any of us could have had really difficult circumstances. But you know, I like what Brene Brown says, you know, she says, I don't know if people are doing the best that they can do, but I choose to believe that people are doing the best that they can do because it helps me live a better life when I believe that about people.

And I think somewhere we have to show some grace and mercy to ourselves, but we also have to be willing to extend it to the, to others. When it comes to our children though, when I have mucked up, I have a responsibility to be able to go and say, you know what? I didn't handle that well with you and I, I need to own that.

And I'm really sorry. Can we have a do over here? You know, but that's really hard for people to say. For some reason. That is really a tough conversation to have with, with the child that they raised. People saying I'm sorry is really hard, but it would go so far. And if somebody comes and says, you [00:21:00]know, this really hurt me.

Well, did they know? I mean, I had a conversation with my own mother, you know, when I was in my thirties over an event that had taken place in childhood and, and I said, mom, I just need to say this to you. I said, you know, this happened. She said, Kevin, I was so unprepared for that event that I didn't know. I didn't know what to say and I didn't know what to do.

And it was like, okay, well that's fair. Um, I just needed to know it. It had, it had some ramifications and I, I just needed to say it and I said, you know, I, I forgave you a long time ago, but. As we move forward, I just needed to clear the air on this because I said I, I've never understood it. It has always been a question mark in my mind as to how this got handled the way it did, because it didn't seem in character with you at the time, but I just needed to put it out there and she said I didn't handle it well.

She said that was on me and I, I could have handled it knowing what I [00:22:00] know now, I would've handled it very differently. 

Dr. Kerry: I love that. 'cause your mother saw you as human, but also saw her, allowed you to see her as human. 

Catherine Hickem: Yes. Right. And and I just think we need to give each other that permission in that space.

Right. Um, because we're all a work in progress and. We all had events that shaped us or impacted us in our childhood that had kind of contributed to who we are. Carrie, I lost 12 people to death from the time I was five to the time I was 13. And four childhood friends, the siblings of four childhood friends, and four very significant adults in my life.

Mm. So by the time that must 

Dr. Kerry: been got of shaping or very shaping experience. 

Catherine Hickem: Very shaping. Very, very shaping. And so from 13 to 17 it was a very. Difficult season for me for several reasons, but one of them was because I didn't wanna take the risk of being hurt by being involved in relationships anymore because I was so scared to [00:23:00] love and to lose.

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Catherine Hickem: Right. That, that greatly impacted me. Um. But I made a decision at 17 that says I'm not gonna live my life as an island. I do wanna be invested. I do want to live and love, so I'm gonna take the risk again of putting myself out there. But it changed me though. You don't go through all that loss as a kid and it not impacts the way you see the world, the way you experience life, the way you learn to grieve, right?

And the way you learn to appreciate life. So. I've always said, I've been a very old soul for a very long time because lost ages. You, you know? 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: It makes you aware of things that the average person wouldn't be made aware of, and, um, and I don't regret any of this. Like, I, you know, I'm, I'm. I've grieved my grief and I've been sad over the things that I've lost.

But at the end of the day, it made me [00:24:00] who I am and I like who I am, and I feel that the journey that I went has made me very sensitive and very, um, it's, it made me a good therapist, right? It made me have incredible compassion. And I understand grief on all kinds of levels, and I especially understand grief as it relates to parents of adult children.

They have to grieve what the losses that. Didn't come to fruition that they weren't able to articulate, but actually impact their relationships now. And so we don't talk about grief, you know? 

Dr. Kerry: No, we don't. Not at all. No. 

Catherine Hickem: Right. Yeah. We don't talk about it in the context of living relationships, but we all have, like I said, when those expectations don't get met, guess what happens?

We are either gonna be get mad or we need to grieve. And if we don't grieve, we'll get mad and we'll punish. 

Dr. Kerry: Right, right. And try to control, 

Catherine Hickem: and try to control, and all of our dysfunctional behavior comes out during that time. So, [00:25:00] but if we grieve, we can actually then, you know, move on and be where our child is.

I, I have a quick story. Um, I went to my son's best friend's wedding and he was 25. And, um, I was married at the time to a minister who performed the ceremony, and I had as. As the wife of a minister, I'd probably hope for support in some way, shape, or form hundreds of weddings. So when you've gone as many weddings as I had attended, um, you get a vision of what your kids' weddings are gonna be like, right?

You, you have a very big picture. So it came time for the mother sun dance. Um, Sean and Lee get up to do their dance, uh, and they picked the song that I would've picked if it was my wedding song with my son, and I begin to cry. I just sob my son's back is to me, he can't see me. My daughter's sitting next to me.

She reaches over and takes my hand [00:26:00] because she knows unconsciously or consciously, without words why I'm crying and I'm crying because I know that'll never be me. That will never be me. My son had always dated someone who was international. I knew we would probably never have a, a typical traditional American wedding.

And I in that moment, grieved the fact that I had always thought this would be me. And in that moment I knew it wouldn't. And I gave myself permission to grieve what I thought would never be. Fast forward four years, my son calls me, I've just gone through a divorce after 35 years, and he says to me, mom, I'm getting married in 60 days.

Will you come? And he lives in Singapore. I said, absolutely, I will be there. I fly over 60 days later. I'm the only person in the entire family system that is at that wedding. It is an Asian [00:27:00] wedding with very specific cultural norms. I didn't know any of them. I had never met the bride. I had never met the family.

It is an incredibly new tradition of every possible way, in every possible way. I had an amazing week. It was an incredible time. I could be present, emotionally connected. I didn't lit in what should have been or could have been, or ought to have been there. None of that was a part of that experience because I had grieved the loss already of what my dream had been.

So when it came time for me to live his dream, I could fully embrace and support and be the mom he needed me to be. And that was the gift of having done the work is that I don't bring my agenda and my baggage to the relationship and to the problem and to, you know, the future. It's, there's a, [00:28:00]there's a real gift that I'm able to then give him because he wanted me to enjoy it.

He wanted me to be a part of that celebration, and I got a, I gotta tell you, it was a great, great week. I could have given you all the reasons why I wouldn't have been had I not done the work. Yeah. Does that make sense? 

Dr. Kerry: It does. In fact, that was a realization I had when I had my first child and second, definitely as each subsequent child.

And that is, as much as there's delight in every stage, there's loss also in every stage. 

Catherine Hickem: Absolutely. 

Dr. Kerry: And that I had to embrace the loss that when they left babyhood, I had to embrace the fact that that cute little. Precious moments we have as mother and baby is now gonna be gone or when they went to school.

That moment, those private times of home alone's now gone. But I also knew that in, as I embraced the next stage and accepted the loss, that there would be new delights that I was unfamiliar with. Just like what you discovered at the wedding there, there that you had no idea, if you had held onto that idea of what the mother son dance should have looked like, you would've right, and [00:29:00] then been so angry, this is not the wedding you imagined you would've missed out on the joy of the wedding that you did get to experience.

Catherine Hickem: Absolutely. You know, and I think that's, I think that's what happens to so many, uh, parents, is that we're so caught up in all the things that we've held and carried for years and years and years, that when it comes time that we have to let that go, we really struggle with letting it go. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Catherine Hickem: And we take it very personally.

Yeah. And it's not personal at all. It's about them. It's not about us, but we make it about us. And you know, so I just think we have to really pay attention to these kind of things 'cause they can also set the precedent for future problems and future issues because we'll take our baggage with us and sometimes it stinks to high heaven and that's not okay.

Dr. Kerry: And I deal with the stink. The high heaven end of it. Yeah, exactly. So, so let's jump over to the podcast extra and talk about if you're sensing that there is tension growing between you and your adult children, what should you do? [00:30:00] Let's look at some practical steps. Okay. But how can people find out more about you, Catherine, and your work?

Catherine Hickem: They can check me out over at Parenting Adult Children today.com and I'm on TikTok Parenting at Adult Children, the number 2D and email me. Catherine at parenting adult children today.com and Oh, I'd love that. We would be happy to, to make a connection with anyone who has a question, because this is a really important topic.

You know? I think this isn't just about being happy, this is about being healthy, right? Yeah. And so we got a lot of work to do. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you so much for being on today. I deeply appreciate it.

Catherine Hickem: Yeah, thank you. 

Dr. Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube?

You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as a toxic free relationship club@kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.


Head Shot

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

Host