Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Coercive Control: How It Steals Your Freedom (Before You Even Realize It) — Dr. Christine Cocchiola

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 4 • Episode 232

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Slowly losing control in your relationship—but can't quite put your finger on what's happening?

This week, Dr. Christine Cocchiola breaks down coercive control as the invisible foundation beneath all abuse. 

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT 

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🔹 Think you might be losing yourself, but not sure how to tell? 

Dr. C provides the "identity assessment" you need and how to spot the difference between healthy anger and weaponized emotion. 

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MORE ABOUT DR. CHRISTINE COCCHIOLA 

DR. CHRISTINE COCCHIOLA is a leading expert on coercive control, protective parenting, and family court abuse. After surviving 27 years and 11 months with an abuser despite being a trained professional who taught about domestic violence, she now dedicates her work to helping others recognize the invisible tactics that strip autonomy. Dr. C specializes in supporting protective parents navigating family court. 

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism.

Disclaimer: This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseli...

Podcast Week January 26th

Christine Cocchiola: [00:00:00] Why do victims stay? Because they're afraid the abuser's gonna take custody of their children. They're gonna lose their house. All of these things, the underpinning of all abuse, abuse doesn't start off with someone punching you or someone sexually assaulting you, or someone perhaps, you know, taking you to court over and over again.

Abuse starts off more covertly, more insidious. Sleep. The charlatans, they show up to places performing in a certain way. They know what to objectify. I was actually just on a call a few minutes ago, and we were talking about the difference between cognitive empathy and affect of empathy because people are like, oh, these people don't empathize.

Well, no, that's not true. They actually have a. And so I always say that that's part of the problem is people don't understand that any murder we hear of, of a victim, we have to assume that person was being coercively controlled from the beginning. It just so happens that eventually.

Dr. Kerry: [00:01:00] Coercive control underpins all of abuse. Today, Dr. Christine Ola joins me to talk about how to recognize coercive control and what you should do if you think you're in abusive relationship. So I'm very excited to be joined by Dr. Christine Ola, whose content has really struck hard for me. I don't know if you know that Dr.

C or not, but that course of control is something I experienced an enormous amount in that relationship. In fact, I didn't realize I was being abused. 

Christine Cocchiola: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And yet when I look back, I can now see the degree that I had lost autonomy over most aspects of my life. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got interested in, in course of control, and then we can launch into discussion about this.

Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. I hear so many wonderful things about you, so I really appreciate it. 

Dr. Kerry: Thank you. Um, 

Christine Cocchiola: yeah, so, so the, I think there's a couple of really interesting things. A lot of people talk about coercive controls, invisible or hidden abuse, and it's not, that's a misnomer.

I think what people don't [00:02:00] realize is it's the underpinning of all abuse. Abuse doesn't start off with someone punching you. Or someone sexually assaulting you or someone perhaps, you know, taking you to court over and over again. Abuse starts off more covertly, more insidiously. People start off in relationships oftentimes.

Loving us or acting like they love us and future faking and being all of these wonderful things. And then we fall deeply, madly in love with people, and then all of a sudden maybe we're gonna start to see some gaslighting, intimidation, isolation, et cetera, right? So it's a trajectory of behavior. And, you know, the savviest of abusers know well enough not to use physical violence.

I mean, they don't wanna lose their jobs, or they also may have, I'm a, I'm a therapist. They have a really great ability of regulating their emotions. This is why they perform so well in court, or [00:03:00] this is why they might have this really successful career. But then they come home and we get to see the ugly parts of them right after a period of time.

So if I am really savvy at abusing, I'm gonna know well enough. I better not physically hit you. 'cause I don't wanna get arrested. I don't want you to have a bruise. Right? And so I always say that, that that's part of the problem is people don't understand that any murder we hear of, of a victim. It's it, we have to assume that person was being coercively controlled from the beginning.

It just so happens that eventually the person exerted. Physical violence. So it's the underpinning of all abuse. It's a stripping away of our autonomy, our ability to have voice. It can be extremely, um, overt. Like, you know, you're on a budget, you, you know, you can't go out with your friends or it can be more covert.

It can be more like you don't see your friends as much, but you still get together socially as couples. It's about not really having [00:04:00] agency or voice in your life and your boundaries. Your, your world gets smaller and smaller and smaller. You don't even realize it's happening, and it's happening also within the family system.

So if there are children, they are suffering that experience. Also. Everybody's walking on eggshells in honor of the predatory parent is what I say in honor of that person. Um, we all learn to adapt our behavior. Abusers choose their victims. Uh, I have a podcast called Perfect Prey because they literally know.

Exactly who to engage in relationships with to get what they want, to strip away autonomy, to gain access over time. I know. I mean, I was with my abuser 27 years and 11 months, so when I teach mm-hmm. On this every single semester, I've worked in child welfare. I started this work at the age of 19. I met him when I was 16.

I've been doing this work my entire life, did not know I was being abused. Because there never was physical violence. But again, that doesn't mean [00:05:00] that course of control doesn't include physical violence. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. There was so much that you and just packed in there. I wanna really take it apart because I, there was several times my mind was blown by what you said.

You mentioned, first of all, and I hope I can remember it all 'cause one of the other points I wanna talk about is they're regulated. I, that hit me hard, so I wanna make sure and we don't forget that. But you mentioned that this is a trajectory and it's interesting 'cause I look at my relationship and I almost feel, I feel some shame because it got introduced really rapidly.

By the second or third date, he was already making suggestions limiting my world. Like one of the one of them was that he made it clear that he wasn't gonna be in a relationship with somebody who had a pet. 

Christine Cocchiola: Oh. 

Dr. Kerry: Um, interestingly enough, he was a serial cheater and he was happy to cheat with women who had pets, but he wasn't gonna live with a woman who had a pet.

Christine Cocchiola: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: So, you know, he was, made it really clear and ma even made kind of like jokes. In fact, I almost said the way he would say it, he had a way of saying things that I still try. I'm trying to like. You know, pull out of my psyche so that I don't repeat them just because the way they get in your [00:06:00] head.

But he, he would even make jokes about like robot pets and think you can have one of those. You just can't have a real pet. So, so talk about that trajectory. How it get, how that happens. Why we don't realize that we're, we're, our scope is being limited. I mean, to me it was like, I didn't have a pet, I didn't care, so what, you know, so I didn't see that as particularly infringing on me.

Christine Cocchiola: Right, right. So, you know, it's, that's really quite the story, isn't it? And by the way, most of them are serial cheaters. Most of them are sex addicts. And so when you take someone who really, I mean, talk about the, the dy, who these people are, the disordered traits of these individuals are, is that they need to exert power and control over other people.

And, you know, the fact that he did it early on, that early on is quite remarkable. But he also didn't choose something that you would have to give up. Right then. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Christine Cocchiola: Isn't that interesting? So that was, that feels to me like I'm gonna exert control a little bit and see how she responds to [00:07:00] it. Because you didn't have pets, you couldn't have a really, I mean, you could have, but you didn't have a really negative response.

'cause it didn't impact you personally. Right, 

Dr. Kerry: right. 

Christine Cocchiola: Yeah. And so, you know, they start off oftentimes in a way that. Feels very wonderful. I mean, relationships start off wonderful, right? This is why we know that this is the, you know, young girls ages 16 to 24 suffer, uh, domestic abuse at a rate of triple the national average.

Why? Because when we're young and our brains aren't developed, right? We are totally open to having these moments of, you know, the puppy love, all of those things that happen in our brain, the oxytocin, but over time. I'm sure he started to ask more of you and, and 

Dr. Kerry: Oh, well, yeah, there was a big test and it, and it happened really fast too.

I don't know how much you know my story, but I wear wigs and I had just started to wear wigs when I, when I, I was widowed so af when I was married and I had. A significant hair loss after my third baby, like just massive hair shed that [00:08:00] just was permanent. I was very ill in that pregnancy. And then for a long time I did a different method while my late husband was living so that it was less intrusive in our life.

Well, after he passed away, I shift shifted over to wigs. And so when you start to date, somebody always is the uncomfortable conversation of like, if they ever grab your hair kissing you or something, you don't wanna. Displace the wig. You, you, you, you need to start to prep them so that there's not this moment of embarrassment for both you and them.

Right. So I mentioned that and I mentioned that I often wear caps at night and he said, well, you'd need to go without a wig, or, I don't want a relationship with you. 

Christine Cocchiola: Interesting. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, he's a, he's a psychopath, by the way. He's a very dangerous man. He didn't, didn't ever hit me, but I, I, I, I know he was violent to other wives.

He'd been married before, but, but here's how he phrased it. He said, I'm too tired for, um, vulner au inauthenticity, and if you can't meet me mm-hmm. If you can't meet me in a vulnerable way now, you know, buzzwords for psychologist who's trying to [00:09:00] continually grow in her sense of self and authent and certainly in authenticity.

To me it was like, well, yeah, no, I really wanted that with my late, you see what I'm saying? It tied into 

Christine Cocchiola: Sure. 

Dr. Kerry: A, a place that I felt like, I don't want shame around this. I don't want, I have that kind of hiddenness. So, you know, if I do fall for somebody, I want them to embrace all of me. So that's how I, I But it, it was a terrible request.

It was, it was painful. I, I cried a lot about it. I debated long and hard about it, and then I went ahead. But here's the other interesting thing is then when we did get together, um. He liked to cuddle and I wanted to leave to go use the restroom, and he said, no, wait, I'm not. I don't leave yet. And I remember thinking, I'm hot, I'm sticky.

I need to use the restroom. Let go of me. And he, he held me. And again, I thought, this is really weird. I don't like this. This feels not good. I remember thinking that and I thought, well, you know, at least he's affect, you know what I'm saying? You do weird things. You [00:10:00] justify this in your head around weird things.

But obviously when it got deeper into the relationship. I felt like I was in a room with the walls that are shrinking. 

Christine Cocchiola: That's right. 

Dr. Kerry: Actively and, and you know what? He very rarely ever said, don't do this or do do this. He always did it in a way that made me feel threatened, or I knew my safety would get worse.

Or I didn't wanna deal with the emotions, or I knew he'd retaliate in some kind of passive aggressive way, or, or, I knew he was supervising so heavily that I'd have to deal with the interrogation that I would get for it. 

Christine Cocchiola: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: That I, I literally gave up, you know, started giving up every, I wasn't watching tv.

The things I like, I wasn't exercising in the way I enjoyed I, he was even monitoring my email. I mean, it was just. It was intense. It was intense. 

Christine Cocchiola: It sounds very intense. I'm so sorry. It's, um, they're so good at doing what they do. And to your point, the walls start closing in, but you don't know the walls are closing in.

Yeah. And so you can look back now and say, oh, [00:11:00] wow, that, that, and that. Wow, that was taking away my autonomy. But, but while you're in it, you're thinking, well, he just wants to cuddle me. Am I being, am I asking too much? So we're really talking about this idea that. You know, there's particular people who these people prey upon, and they're typically people who are accommodating, and that doesn't make you a bad person or me a bad person.

What it does is it makes us kind of actually kind of nice, you know, we're easy, relatively. In general, typically people easy to get along with, where we're gonna listen to both sides. We're gonna try really hard to fix things. You wanna go to that restaurant? Sure, no problem. Right? We, we tend to really accommodate, and that is also something that they prey upon because they want people who are going to give away parts of themselves.

Mm. And then we lose ourselves. And by then we're in the quicksand. I mean, it's like, whoa, what just happened? Uh. I was gonna, you said something about, uh, so regulating [00:12:00] behaviors or, you know, 

Dr. Kerry: yeah. Regulate, you said they, they're able to regulate their emotions, and I know most of us, most survivors walk away and say the reason it was so bad was because this person couldn't manage themselves.

Least those excuses we give ourselves, we'll say, well, it's because they're hungry, or they had a bad day at work, but. Is it really? I mean, so when you said no, they know how to regulate their emotions. Like, whoa, that was powerful. 

Christine Cocchiola: They absolutely do. They, so it's so interesting, right? They're charlatans, they show up to places performing in a certain way.

They know how, they know what to objectify. I was actually just on a call a few minutes ago, and we were talking about the difference between cognitive empathy and affect of empathy. Because people are like, oh, these people don't empathize. Well, no, that's not true. They actually have a, they do a really good job of figuring out how to navigate life in a way that.

They have this intellectual empathy. They know how to behave at a funeral. Somebody passes away how to give to a particular cause, whatever it is. But affective empathy, the ability to truly be attuned to you, they're [00:13:00] missing. And you know, you said something a moment ago about. Like I, I just think what we fail to do, and we're not taught to do it, we're not taught the red flags.

Or by the way, I, and my TEDx, I talk about the green flags in a relationship, like nobody says, like relationships should feel safe. You should never have to ask permission to go to the bathroom. Like, you know what I mean? But, but the reality is, is that we aren't taught to listen to our bodies. Like our, if you went back to that relationship, I'm sure there are multiple times your body was screaming and slowly over time it stopped screaming.

But there were multiple times that our bodies were saying to us, get out of there. Like something's not right. But we also knew, and this is why victims get blamed all the time, right. We also knew what would happen if we did do that. And, you know, it was, feminist psychologists talked about this, you know, Albert Biman talked about this.

Like, there's always that knowledge of what the retaliation is gonna be. If we do stand up for [00:14:00] ourselves and we have, we end up weighing the costs and the benefits of that, especially if there's children. You know, why do victims stay? Because they're afraid the abuser's gonna take custody of their children, they're gonna lose their house.

All of these things. And as you know, my particular world is they in relationship to how children are impacted. It's, it's. It's a trap. It's a truck. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. And they, they, they even do more than that. They don't only just weaponize the tangibles in the relation outside relationships. They weaponize our inner need to be connected.

And I think that was the other thing that I found really. Powerful about this relationship. In fact, I, my book is called Love You More because that was a game we, we played. I'd say, I love you. 'cause he didn't say, I love you. I'd say I love you. He'd said, love you more. It always ended up became becoming a competition to where it made me feel weary.

And I knew that it really wasn't a sincere thing. It was more of, you know, I need to win thing. Mm-hmm. But, um, I almost called the book The Betrayal of Me. That was my working title for the longest time. The betrayal of [00:15:00] me, because I saw it was He betrayed me. I betrayed me. But here's the thing is we often feel as victims and survivors, 'cause sometimes we're still trying to become a survivor, that what was wrong?

To have wanted the connection, it was wrong to have wanted the relationship and that we are weak for not being able to say, yeah, I wanna go out in the world and possibly live alone for the rest of my life. Although I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but a lot of us fear that. And it's wild how they weaponize that and, and make you fear the potential of that so that you lose yourself.

You, you choose the relationship and the loss of your, the freedoms over the possibility of being abandoned. 

Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely. And they, and they know that, right? They, yeah. They're going into that knowing that they have us trapped knowing that, you know, they can take away, and I think that that's what's, so people are like.

You know, you were in it for so long, why did you stay so long? Like, all of these kinds of questions. And the reality is, it must be 

Dr. Kerry: hard question. I hate those questions. 

Christine Cocchiola: Well, I, I'm not, I personally [00:16:00] don't have any shame left. Like I, how did you 

Dr. Kerry: get over that? 

Christine Cocchiola: Um. I think so I, I often say that black and white thinking is not healthy in general, and abusers have lots of black and white thinking things are good or bad.

You're good or bad. Hate lover hate, right? But this is the one time in the world that black and white thinking is vital. And I know at my core that that man, no matter how he shows up, is an evil human being. And that's not my fault. I if I this, I say to victims and survivors, ask yourself this question. If you had met someone like you.

How great would the relationship have been? 

Dr. Kerry: I love that question. 'cause the answer is it would be fantastic. That's right. You would feel complete safety to be whoever you wanted to be in that relationship. 

Christine Cocchiola: Mm-hmm. Right, 

Dr. Kerry: exactly. Yeah. For me, I felt shame, and I don't know if you felt this either as a, as a psychologist, you know, and I was a seasoned psychologist.

It wasn't, I mean, I'm in my fifties and I had been practicing 20, 25 years. How could I have missed the science that this person was not a healthy person? How [00:17:00] could I have literally, I mean, I had just read Dr. Nerfs book on the passionate marriage, talking about differentiation and really looking for somebody who is mature.

How could I have missed that and found somebody who is psychologically the worst aspects of my growing up? It. So it was, it was very, to me, I, I felt, I felt like laid out, you know, flattened by this. 

Christine Cocchiola: I'm, I'm so sorry. You did. I would say that the problem in the field, you and I can have this discussion. The problem in the field is there's no training on this.

There's no, yeah, that's 

Dr. Kerry: true. 

Christine Cocchiola: I mean, we go through our, our master's degree. I went through a doctoral degree. I, you know, you, you know, like we go through all of this programming and there's, there's not even a mandatory domestic abuse course. No. And there's DSM five, like, you know, you learn the DSM five, but nobody talks about narcissistic abuse.

Nobody's talking about how these people show up in relationships. And by the way, that most of your clients. Have experienced this. I mean, literally whether they're a child of an abuser, they had an employer who's an [00:18:00] abuser, they, I mean, or of course, a partner like. Are you kidding me? I I Would you agree that virtual, 

Dr. Kerry: oh, I do.

In fact, I went back and started thinking, I started to feel sick, uh, over my work, my first, first season of work and thinking, who did I miss? Who did I advise wrong? Who did I put in greater danger and, and feeling? And I'm feeling teary because that's how. How hurt, you know, broken. I felt over this that I may have injured someone or left them in a dangerous situation.

One of the things that really helped was someone got ahold of me just recently and said, I saw you years ago and you were the person who told me that my husband had this type of personality, probably based on what I was saying, and you told me that it was dangerous and needed to get out. I think you saved my life.

Christine Cocchiola: That's amazing. 

Dr. Kerry: So I'm thinking, okay, maybe I didn't completely miss it. I caught it sometimes, but yeah, it's, it is, you know, and here's the other thing, Dr. See is I went to a school that was one of the rare ones that talked about personality disorders. So I walked out with a [00:19:00] really good understanding of the what, what to look for.

It was new 'cause I was in school in 1980s and 1980s when the NPD made it into the DSM three. But I was able to hear, I'm trying to remember her name. She was the woman who, um, got to. She did a psychological testing on Kenneth Kenneth Bianchi to prove that he was not a multiple personality disorder, which now we call DID.

And she came in and used the Rorschach to show how she knew that he wasn't that. So I got, I got really fantastic exposure with great experts, but not once did we ever talk about the. Consequence of living with somebody who had any of the cluster B personality types. Not once. Not once. 

Christine Cocchiola: Right, right. And, and to be clear, I'm not very aligned with the DSM anyway because I, I have a problem with how it was created and who it was created to harm.

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Christine Cocchiola: Um, but in general, that's why I don't even call it NPD, I just say, you know, and, and narcissistic abuse. Coercive control intersect, and [00:20:00] you know, so not all narcissists are narcissistic abusers, right. But all coercive controllers are narcissistically abusing and all narcissistic abusers are exerting corer, coercion, and control.

That's how I see it. But to your point, okay. I. I think it's very interesting for me because I had a very full life as a college professor. I was happy there, I had great experiences. I did have controlling supervisors for sure, and, and when you look back on your life, right, you're like, oh my gosh, that person, that person and that friend.

Wait a minute, like they're all around, right? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, they are, 

Christine Cocchiola: but I also. I also, when I was in my clinical practice, was calling it out all of the time. It was really intriguing that I could call it out all the time with other people and I couldn't call it out in my own life. And it was actually Gottman's book, the Seven Characteristics of a Highly Effective Marriage, and probably my fourth.

Therapist because I don't know about you, but I was gaslit by numerous therapists. You didn't guess like anybody from your story that you're sharing, but that's problematic where therapists are like making [00:21:00] people work on the relationship when one person's a mother effort. No offense, but 

Dr. Kerry: Well, I fear I did that.

That was because I did see couples and I was always primary relationship first because I was also heavily into the evangelical circle. So that was a, yeah. Another source of tension and cultural bias for me was that, you know, how dare I ev advocate for divorce? I was terrified to advocate for divorce.

Christine Cocchiola: See, isn't that interesting? The world 

Dr. Kerry: the dead. I know. So that was the other thing that kept me in the relationship was I made a promise to God. How could I break? You see how it just becomes this trap that was layered of all this obligation and me and there's bible verses and you know, I think we are taking those outta context that by you, you stay with us.

Ungodly husband, you make him more godly. So there's this pressure on women who are staying. Now, I'm not saying all abusers are men. I'm not saying that, but 

Christine Cocchiola: Right. 

Dr. Kerry: But if you're a woman and your husband's an abuser, there is pressure from the church. I know there has been, I, I've seen this, that if she stays, that she then edifies him and she, she.

Makes him more holy. 

Christine Cocchiola: So, well, we're [00:22:00] talking about systemic course of control, aren't we? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. 

Christine Cocchiola: When we think about the system, so I always say this happens in intimate relationships, but of course it's happening in family court. It's happening, it happens in criminal systems. I think course of, when I say it's the underpinning of all abuse, it's, it's the un.

It's why racism occurs. It's why sexism occurs. It's spiritual abuse. It's all of these things. Why do people coerce and control? Because they wanna have power over someone sometimes when they have power over someone. That's all they need. But other times there's financial gain. You know, think about what happened with Dr.

Nadine, right? Like, I mean, it was about financial gain, right? Yeah. And you know, and then, or it's fame people who want to have like this status, you know, the political status, the social media status, whatever it is. That's all coercion and control. My son says, why don't you just call it oppression mom? I'm like, well, you're right.

It is oppression. 

Dr. Kerry: It is systemic oppression. It is, yeah. So let's go back to, 'cause I know you and are deep into this conversation, let's define coercive control. 'cause we're using it as if it's very obvious. I have a [00:23:00] feeling and most people are like, okay, I think I know, but I'm not for sure exactly what it is.

It's more than just power and control. Wouldn't you say it's, wouldn't you say there's more to the definition than that? 

Christine Cocchiola: I think the simple definition is a course of control is the underpinning of all of use. It's about one person or group of people exerting power and control over another person or group of people.

There are 

Dr. Kerry: strated. Why do they, yeah, why do they do it though? 

Christine Cocchiola: Right? There are strategies that they engage in to do that, which include. Psychological abuse isn't separate, which includes psychological abuse such as gaslighting, manipulation, intimidation, and isolation. Of course, financial abuse, legal abuse, of course, weaponization of children's sexual abuse and physical abuse.

All of those things are part of the tactics that abusers will use. They don't use all of them, but they always use psychological tactics. All right, and why do they do it? Because if I'm a person who has this significant. These significant character traits where I feel like [00:24:00] I have lost my autonomy, perhaps as a developing child and throughout childhood, and certainly I may have a propensity to it through, you know, genetic makeup that I need to exert power and control over others to feel safe.

And the way to do that, by the way, is to cover my shame, to cover who I really am. I need to perform. In a way that looks like I am a good human being. I need to mirror someone like Dr. Meca boy. Right? Like, I, like, I need to, I need to mirror these people so that, that way I actually fulfill my ego because I'm so.

There's so much shame percolating inside of me. Um, and so that's why they do it. They want, they need to exert power and control over others to feel decent in the world to serve to, it feels like survival for them. That's why when we decide to try to escape what we know about coercive control, which again.

Anybody who's listening, if you're [00:25:00] thinking domestic violence or domestic abuse, what you're really thinking is coercive control. I'd love to supplement the term. It's just all coercive control because people, when they use domestic violence, they're thinking it's only violent and that's not true. Right?

We now have 41 states in our country that unless someone has suffered physical violence, they have a bruise. They did not suffer domestic violence. That's like crazy, right? When we know, 

Dr. Kerry: yeah. 

Christine Cocchiola: The whole gamut of behaviors are actually leading to that physical violence. So you know, the reality is, is that these abusers always intensify post-separation virtually every single time.

Every victim is suffering some form of financial abuse, some kind of control. And then if we get engaged in the legal system through family court, divorce, custody, whatever, we know that, you know, these people are drawn towards conflict. They actually enjoy the process. We have new research out in 2024 that says, and we have not actually identified these intimate partner abusers [00:26:00] as this, but it's pretty clear to me in all of my clients that it's narcissism.

It's Machiavellianism, which is the ability to manipulate, right, the psychopathy, the willingness to break the law. Be right. Think you're above the law all the time, and it's sadism. I wanna see you suffer. I actually enjoy what you, how dare you try to expose me. How dare you reject me If you're gonna do that, I am gonna come after you and do my very best to make you suffer.

That's what they do. I left with the items in the trunk of my car. I mean, I lost the house. I lost everything I had and, and I was being stalked. There were eight cameras up in my home. I mean, he's a school guidance counselor. Wow. So you know the 

Dr. Kerry: wow. To the public. I'm sure they thought he was a great guy.

Christine Cocchiola: They did. But I have run into people and they've been like, oh, I know now. I know now, so, wow. You know, it's, it took people time [00:27:00] and of course I'm a public figure as you are, so people start to get some clarity from that and, you know, but there were tons of flying monkeys, there were tons of people who believed him.

He went to court with the book, um, called Divorcing the narcissistic Borderline Personality Person, and it's like, 

Dr. Kerry: oh, geez. She, 

Christine Cocchiola: yeah. She would open it and read it in court while we were waiting for our hearing. It's, I could laugh now. I was crying then. Oh, 

Dr. Kerry: I imagine. 

Christine Cocchiola: I imagine. Um, yeah. So they're just, um, they're hell bent on revenge and they, um, and, and just ask, asking your listeners to like really begin to think about what is their body telling them in this relationship?

Can they let go? Do they feel like they can be their authentic selves? Because, you know, you know, my particular niche is children. It's like children grow up in these family systems. They never feel like they can just be themselves. Mm-hmm. And, and they certainly can't [00:28:00] be that way with the abuser, but the abuser makes them think.

And the name of your book, betrayal to Me, right? Yeah. Like the abuser makes the child think the safe parent doesn't love them or is betraying them or took all the family money or is crazy unhinged. And then these kids are totally untethered, totally untethered. Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: It is such a sad, sad thing. Yeah, it is.

It is heartbreaking. Yeah. My mind is going in so many different directions right now. It, it is. It is amazing that the degree that they are so subtle at this, and yet that it does escalate to the point that you just feel completely trapped. And you also know, to me it's like, it wasn't like the. There's that, the, um, the analogy of the lady and the tiger where there's a door where there's a good out and there's a door with a bad out.

That's what we act like when we tell victims to just leave. We act like, well, there's a good door and you just are refusing to take it, and it's because you're weak is why you're not taking it. Yeah. I say, no, there's a tiger behind every door. You know that whatever you [00:29:00] choose, you're gonna pay for that choice and you're gonna lose something with that choice.

Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely. Absolutely. We're trapped. And so leaving sometimes means, and I'm always guiding people that I work with. Like sometimes you have to make a list of the things you really could let go of because they're gonna come after what matters most to you. Yeah. And if that's the children. Then how do you leverage other things that make them think they are winning?

Dr. Kerry: That's what I tell people too. I say you have to throw them off and act like other things are important. 

Christine Cocchiola: That's right. That's right. And so if they think you want the blue couch, tell them you want the green one. 

Dr. Kerry: Exactly. Yeah. If you really want cussy to kids act like you want the house. 

Christine Cocchiola: Yes. Exactly. Or that you really want child support, like you need it, you know?

Yeah, right. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Christine Cocchiola: And so like letting go the finances and living in a cardboard box, but knowing that you have the best influence on your children is sometimes really, you know, our healing, as you know, [00:30:00] comes from knowing that. You know, we're safe. But also if you have children that your children are actually in a place where they have some clarity, that they understand who this person is and they create some healthy boundaries.

Maybe they still see this person, maybe they don't, but, but if. If we can provide for them, I call it a path to freedom. It's like literally having a lantern and showing them the way out. Um, but if, but if we don't leave, then they, they may not have that and there's no judgment for staying. But that's one of the gifts of leaving the gift of perspective and the gift that they get to know us.

They'd never known us before. They get to act so us. I know. 

Dr. Kerry: I know. And know a free you of you that you really get to choose. I mean, I think for me, that's one of the amazing things that my children are grown. You know, they're young, young adults. When I left was in, left that second marriage and they of course with their father, that was, you know, there was a little bit of course of control in that relationship.

Just a little bit. You know, of course I was saying we were a very [00:31:00] strong Christian family, so we were living in that kind of environment. Um, but since that, in fact, one of my kids said, when, recently as an adult, he said, I don't know, you. 

Christine Cocchiola: Interesting. 

Dr. Kerry: He said, I don't know you. So we've made a cons, a concerted effort to make that present.

And we are now all of each other. I have three sons, close friends. My sons and I are very close and we have made it. Uh, I know we have a kind of safety that we would never have had, had I stayed in either relationship. Of course the first one passed away. But it that, that I've been able to really be a different kind of a person around my kids.

And they've had that joy of getting to experience that. 

Christine Cocchiola: Absolutely. 'cause we can't be ourselves in these relationships. 

Dr. Kerry: No. 

Christine Cocchiola: Or 

Dr. Kerry: regulate or even often even know ourselves. How many people get outta these relationships and they think they don't even know what their hobbies are anymore. They don't even know what kind of food they like to eat.

They've lost most of the sense of all of that. It is incredible. 

Christine Cocchiola: It is. It is. And I think sometimes too, what happens is people think. Well, my relationship can't be [00:32:00] abusive because I actually do still go for my run with my girlfriends, or I actually do go out with my friends after work, and I wanna be really cautious about the fact that it can be extremely nuanced.

And if you're feeling like at every argument or most arguments, you're being mocked or someone's bringing up your vulnerabilities, you know, you shared something personal with them and they keep. Bringing it up or they maybe are, you know, defaming your family members that you actually love, even for their quirkiness or the parts of them you don't love.

Like ask yourself, who does that in relationships? Who minimizes things that matter to you, right? Whether they agree or not. There has to be the synergy that both, well, you know, in the clinical world we call mutuality, right? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Christine Cocchiola: And there has to be mutuality. And if there is inequality where you can't actually say or do all of the things that you would like to do, assuming they don't hurt anybody, [00:33:00] if you can't do that and this person can, that's a problem.

Dr. Kerry: Right, right. 

Christine Cocchiola: Even if every time you're together, it feels good. Even if they haven't prevented you from going running, even if they, you know, you have your own finances. Like again, remember that it can be nuanced because I think there's some extreme cases. We have a case in California where the judge actually.

Uh, did sanction the father for course of control. They have course of control legislation there. It's codified as a form of which I disagree. It's actually the underpinning of, but anyway, um, and he, uh, he had, was making a list of a hundred things a day the mother had to do now. I, I mean, that's pretty overt.

Like of course the judge like sanctioned him. He got a fi, she got a five year protective order, and what did he do? Like why does he care? He actually is appealing the five year protective order. It doesn't make any sense that he's appealing it unless he's obsessed. Unless he's obsessed. Unless he's, yeah.

But the point is, is that like, that's really, [00:34:00] that's over, that's extreme, you know? But you know, you need to ask yourself, you know, how did my partner know where I was last night? Wait a minute, like is your, there are apps you can download on phones? Well, I could just walk by your open phone and the app is on your phone.

You don't know what's on there. I could see all of your texts. I mean, they, they are so savvy at figuring out technology, and I love this one. I had a client recently, she's like, oh, he's terrible at technology. He doesn't understand it at all. I'm like, okay, well, 

Dr. Kerry: I know they say that they are bad, but I don't believe that.

Christine Cocchiola: Exactly, exactly. She ended up finding out that he had a keystroke on her computer and he had her passcode eventually, so yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: Wow. Yeah. So, so we're gonna jump over to the podcast extra and let's talk about how to identify if somebody listening is being coercively controlled. Let's kind of break it down at a more basic level, but how can people find out more about you, Dr.

Ola? How can they learn, um, follow you and learn more about your content? 

Christine Cocchiola: Sure. So I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn and Twitter, et [00:35:00] cetera. And also it's, I, I think if you look up the word co chila or coercive control, um, I tend to have that as my handle. Facebook, of course. And then my website is coercive control consulting.com.

But I, people can just put in, I know your heart.com, because protective parents will their children's hearts better than anymore. 

Dr. Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week. Episode, are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD or you can learn more about me and my resources such as the Toxic Free Relationship club@kerrymcavoyphd.com, and I'll see you back here next week.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

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