Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Why Did They Pick You? The Trait in ‘Good’ People Narcissists Love to Exploit

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 4 • Episode 248

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Why do narcissists target good, empathetic people in relationships?

This week, forensic psychologist Dr. Peter Favaro reveals why being a good person might actually make you MORE vulnerable to narcissists—and how that one irrational belief creates the exact confusion toxic people exploit. 

Wondering if you met a “bad person?” Find out with this free gift from Dr. Kerry! 

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT 

Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here. 

MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA INTERVIEW 

🔹 Dr. Favaro breaks down the ABC model of cognitive behavior therapy—and shows you exactly how to break free from the "500 chances" trap. 

👉 Get immediate access to this extended interview

THE BOOK: 

Bad People Bible by Dr. Peter Favaro

MORE ABOUT DR. PETER FAVARO 

Dr. Peter Favaro is a forensic psychologist with decades of experience in high-conflict custody cases and international child abduction cases. He's authored 21 books, including Bad People Bible, Anger Management, and upcoming titles Foundation and a book on mindfulness.  

Dr. Favaro’s Teachable site: cihr.teachable.com

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. 

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This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

[00:00:00] The first time someone does something that involves your neck, either choking, strangling, or anything else, your risk of being killed is very, very high. If you're pushed, if you're kicked, if you're punched, those are all bad things, but if someone tries to grab you by the neck, that's the worst thing.

That's the biggest predictor of femicide. If you are dating a person, every time you see them, they talk about a fight that they had with someone. They talk about how incompetent everyone is. They will pick a fight with anyone. For any reason, and then they'll come home and talk about their war story with you.

That's a big warning right now. People with narcissistic traits and or personality disorders, they tend to don't really see people as people. They're really basically an object. There's an outrage that the audacity of someone to separate. What's your insight into that narcissistic personality and borderline personality?

The way the mental health system is [00:01:00] set up is it's very misogynistic.

Victims often feel like they have no control when they're in a toxic relationship. But maybe you have more than you think you do well today. Dr. Favaro, the author of Bad People Bible joins me to talk about personal empowerment in toxic relationships. Well, Dr. Avara, I'm very excited to have you on the show.

I got a copy. Thank you so much for sending it to me, a bad people Bible and devoured it and loved it. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what. Made you decide to write that book? Well, I am a psychologist, a clinical psychologist, but my practice is the practice of psychology in legal settings.

So I'm a forensic psychologist more than I'm anything else. I don't do that much treatment. I train other people. I. To do treatment, but most of my time is spent, uh, in court in two contexts. One is [00:02:00] helping judges figure out who should get custody in a high conflict custody case, and I'm also in court sort of globally, internationally on international child deduction cases.

Uh, that's something called a hate convention, and I'm qualified as an expert on what they call Article 13 B, which is the grave risk exception for the Hate convention. And I just spend a lot of time trying to protect children from abuse, intimate partner violence and physical abuse. Bad people. Bible is really about toxic relationships, uh, and a lot of those relationships wound up causing problems in their marriage and.

People, mostly men. The statistics say people actually are in more danger during the breakup phase, even after they're separated by household. So it's a very, very dangerous time for women. [00:03:00] I always want to let women know that the, the rates of Femicide murder against women. Go very, very high at the end of a divorce.

And while you should always be separated from an abusive partner, whether you're a man or a woman, the first time someone does something that involves your neck, either choking, strangling, or anything else, you risk of being killed is very, very high. So if you're pushed, if you're kicked, if you're punched, those are all bad things.

If someone tries to grab you by the neck, that's the worst thing. That's the biggest predictor of femicide. What do you think happens in that phase that makes it riskier? I think people, all the airs outta the balloon, the relationship has nothing left that is sustainable. And, uh, if [00:04:00] the perpetrator is, uh, is a male and a narcissistic male, you have to get away.

You have to work with a good therapist or organization, devise an escape plan and follow it because I noticed that there's a, there's, if you think about these individuals, the people with narcissistic traits and or personality disorders, they tend to. Don't really see people as people. They're really basically an object.

So during that breakup phase, I suspect that there's a, there's almost an outrage at the audacity of someone to separate. Do what? What's your insight into that? So there are two conditions that are worth paying attention to. Narcissistic personality and borderline personality. And the way the mental health system is set up is it's very misogynistic because if you're a narcissistic male, uh, it's just a guy, you know, just a grownup frat boy.[00:05:00] 

But if you're a borderline woman. You're adding your mind crazy. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah, and they're treated very, very, very differently. But what they have in common is that both circumstances, both types of personalities cannot detach from a relationship. A borderline and narcissism are attachment issues, our attachment disorders, so.

A lot of times a person with a narcissistic personality and you know, narcissism is part of borderline personality as well. If they can't stay connected through the power and control dynamic, they will stay connected through conflict. Yeah. Yeah, say more about that. 'cause I know most of the individuals who've gone through any of these relationships don't understand that because they're about resolution, cooperation, collaboration and conflict is something that's really uncomfortable.

So help those who are listening understand what you mean by that. [00:06:00] Well, it's only, statistically, it's only five to 10% of divorcing partners who can't figure it out. You know, most people who are in relationships where there's a divorce or a separation, they can, they can work it out, they can collaborate.

And a large part of what I do is helping people collaborate. But there's that five to 10%, uh, of the relationships that are extraordinarily toxic and nothing, nothing repairs that. You know, the, the most you can hope for, and it's a horrible thing to hope for. The, the most you can hope for is the aggressive partner to find another victim.

And then they tend to leave you alone. Yeah. And what I've noticed is that type of individual often is regulated by conflict. It pleases them, you know, it makes them feel better when the, the, the abusive individual or the, the, the toxic [00:07:00] individual is stirring trouble up. They really seem to enjoy that.

They take an ex a delight in that. Yeah. They're hype, they're very competitive. Everything is, I gotta win and you have to lose. Mm-hmm. People sometimes ask me, you are probably gonna ask me or wanna know, you know, what are the warning signs? Mm mm And I always tell people in the beginning, there may be no warning signs because toxic narcissists, they love bomb.

You know, they'll flatter, they'll heap love, you know, on you. However, there are subtle things that you can notice if you are dating a person. Who every time you see them, they talk about a fight that they had with someone. They talk about how incompetent everyone is. I always say the toxic narcissist divides the world into two parts.

You know, people who are like me. And a-holes, you know? Yeah, yeah, you're right. I've noticed that [00:08:00] too. You know, and they will, they will pick a fight with anyone for any reason, and then they'll come home and talk about their war story with you because what's the likelihood they do that? And you say, oh, you poor thing.

You know, people are such idiots. I can't believe that person messed with you. And, and so on and so forth. So that's, to me, that's a bit. That's a big warning sign. Also, what do people do to people they're angry with? Mm-hmm. If you see someone who's a great starter in a relationship and they've had best friends fall one after another after another because of tension in that relationship and hyper criticism in that relationship, that's a warning sign.

Because you're gonna, you're gonna come up to the plate someday too, if that, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's really hard is the, in these individuals are so charming, they're very likable, and there's [00:09:00] something about almost being in their presence that makes you feel like you glow. Like, you know, I'm, I know it's the idealization that's happening, but it, it is, it's a very intoxicating feeling.

I, I always say, you go out with this type of person for dinner. The second time that you go out with them, they know what kind of wine to order and they know how to handle the wait staff and they, you know, they take control. They order for you and you're like, wow, this person really has it going on.

They're so confident. And then six months later, they're a toxic control freak. Yeah, my, my, my ex, he would drive so carefully when he picked me up for our date that it was almost too slow. And then once we were married in the relationship, the road rage was so intense that I had to walk to my phone because I was fearing for my life every single time he drove in the car.

Yeah. You know that it was like night, night and day. The switch was. Credible. One of the things that you said that just blew me [00:10:00] away in the book, and I really wanna circle around this 'cause I, you're, you're saying something I thought was like, I had never heard this, but it was, it was just shocked me. You, you write in the book, and it's early in the book, he said, when you're dealing with bad people, you'll often reach a point of complete exhaustion.

And that's exactly where they want you to be. It's at this stage when your drain and frustrated, the irrational thoughts start to creep in, what did I do deserve this? And then you said, but here's the hard truth. Expecting a life without adversity, interpersonal or otherwise makes you more vulnerable to toxic people that like, wow, I was, because we don't want all of us, I think wish, especially those of us without a run in with one or more of these individuals wish that the world didn't have these people.

So help me understand what you're saying there. 'cause that was, I, it was blew me away. So I can't take full credit for that. I can take full credit for the words, but the idea. Was taught to me from Dr. Albert Ellis, who was one of my, one of my teachers and one of my [00:11:00] mentors. And Albert Ellis was clearly one of the top five people in the history of psychology and mental health.

He is the founder and creator of behavior therapy. Mm-hmm. And anyone who's interested in knowing, uh, more about Dr. Ellis should look up his books on Amazon and get them. And the fact is that in many ways I'm a lot easier to listen to than Al because he was a grumpy, grumpy guy. But he was, he was right that when we idealize people and when we take on science, when we take on science projects, we ignore adversity, and then when we get it.

We say, why is this happening to me? And the fact of the matter was it was happening to you all the while, and it will continue happening because the universe [00:12:00] is a place of adversity and chaos and nobody gave you a coupon at birth that said, well. This is all gonna go away. You are not gonna have this, but everybody does.

And that's one of the reasons why I wrote Bad People Bible was to give people a manual for how to deal with it. A lot of what I write about in bad people Bible is advice on the best strategy. A lot of it is strategic advice. Yeah. Yeah. And it, I, it hit me that I had never thought about this is what I took away from that was that it was.

Arrogant of me to think that I should have a better life, and that to have longed for that really puts me at risk of, first of all, that entitlement dampens my acuity. So I'm more at risk in not spotting it. But then you make another statement right after that is that, but the person who's bad. Also knows that your entitlement or your insult is a signal that you can be rattled.[00:13:00] 

And then they're gonna, and then you said, you end it saying, and when they know that they come at you harder. So you're also saying it's not only that that's unrealistic and kind of a pampered view, but it puts us at greater risk. Yes. And you, you described yourself incorrectly, okay? Mm-hmm. You weren't arrogant, you were just irrational.

Mm. You weren't, you weren't looking at the rational logic of what you're saying. You know, that I, you know, and if you know anything about cognitive psychology, and I'm sure you do, it's all about what people do to themselves when they. Say that things should happen in a certain way. It was Al who used to talk about the tyranny of the shoulds, and it's that, it's that process that breaks you down.

Now, I'm no stranger to this myself because I operate in a very hostile environment. When I do a custody [00:14:00] evaluation and go to trial and the lawyer is a bully, I experience a lot of that and over the years. I've learned to just to let it go in one ear and out the other. You know, my, my world is still gonna be here tomorrow, and I have to do everything I possibly can to make it the best world it can possibly be.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, my, my audience probably doesn't realize it, but they're hearing, whenever I talk, you're, they're hearing it from a very psychodynamic perspective. So the, the cognitive is very different in the fact that is, it looks at irrational thinking and irrational leaps that we make sort of, that's how I kind of understand it.

There's a trigger and then there's what we say about the trigger, which then leads us to how we feel about it. But is that actually a reasonable. Assumption to make about, like, maybe please explain it better. I'm sure I'm fumbling there. Well, first of all, I, I studied [00:15:00] psychodynamic psychology for a very, very, very long time with somebody who's actually trained by Freud.

Mm-hmm. So, um, I have had good, I think I've had good influence, but, but the cognitive people describe it as the ABCs of thinking. Yeah. Yeah. There is. Antecedent, which is what happened to you. Then there's a belief and then there's a consequence, and most people believe it's the antecedent that causes the consequence.

I lost my job. That's the antecedent. The consequence is that I'm upset, depressed, and I'll never get another job again. But A doesn't cause c, B causes c. You know, I am a horrible person. I don't deserve a job. That's why I lost this job and all the self punishments that people do when people do that with toxic [00:16:00] partners as well.

You know, the antecedent, the moment of awakening, right? I married someone who might kill me. I married someone who doesn't really like me, let alone love me, and the consequences. Now I'm upset because I lost my relationship. But that's, that's not what causes the upset. What causes the upset is all the beliefs you have about yourself.

I'm unworthy, I'm unlovable. You know, I should have seen it coming and because I didn't, I'm stupid. And I think that, you know, cognitive behavior therapy and even dialectic behavior therapy, all of those approaches. Are very, very good ways to deal with something that's happening in the here and now. A lot of forms of psychotherapy.

Very, very good ones. Concentrate on your past history. Yeah, way too much. So I agree. I'm thinking of this in terms of cognitive dissonance, [00:17:00] which is whenever we talk about that topic on this podcast, it's always the most popular conversations, which is the confusion that the toxic person creates by their image management, by the need for them to be perceived in a certain way, which then leads you to think that's who they are, when it really isn't.

They have all these ulterior motives that's going on, so then you end up not knowing what the truth is. And I can tell you, surviving a toxic relationship myself for three years, I. I was so confused and, and he, he kept me in an incredible state of confusion. But you're right. If we could, if we could see it as the A, B, C, I was just saying it's like throwing that into that framework.

You know, there's the beha, there's the, the inconsistent behavior, and then there's the, then the consequences. I don't leave, but what I say in the middle is. Maybe he's trying hard or maybe, you know, there's all these things that we sort of say to ourselves that, or maybe he needs me. I mean, I just, I'm thinking of somebody that I know has waffled in and out according to this person 200 times.

I'm not for sure think really that that's an [00:18:00] accurate number, but his point is it's, he can't make a decision, but he, he feels like I owe her something. She's, depends on me, despite all this, all this horrific stuff she does to him. What would you suggest to help break that apart, that confusion apart so.

Now I'll give you some advice that I learned when I was a child psychologist. Um, and literally I was a child who was a psychologist. I, I started my child psych practice when I was 25 years old. I, I didn't take me long to get my doctorates. So people would come in and they would see this child who was a psychologist, and they would ask me for my advice.

Mm-hmm. And I would give them my best advice and they would come back next week and they would say. Dr. Avaro, I did everything you told me to do and it didn't work. So then I would say to them, did you do it 600 times? Yeah. Yeah. Because what we do [00:19:00] when we make errors in our thinking is we practice those errors and they become habits.

So when you employ any kind of advice, whether it's cognitive, behavioral, psychodynamic, whatever you want to, whatever you want to call it, it really doesn't matter. It's all the same thing in the end of the day, did you develop the habit yet? You know, and are you willing to stick with it enough for it to be a habit?

And some people are really good at it. You know, they, they're good at correcting their thinking. Other people. Not so much. Okay. And and that's because in their mind they made a promise. They think they made a promise to love and obey and everything else like that. That's not the promise that they made to them.

The promise is, I'm going to change him with my love. Mm, yeah. Yeah. [00:20:00] We, yeah. Yeah. Or we're gonna change it back to what it was when we, that perfect phase that we had that wasn't actually real. Well, I have a saying and I don't wanna seem like I'm being too hard on men, but they say that. Women spend the entirety of their relationship trying to make the perfect man.

Okay. Men spend the entirety of their relationship trying to keep it exactly the way they were on their first date. My ex used to even say that. Why can't we go back to this in the kicking? Yeah. But you are the one that dragged us away from that point. I didn't. I didn't do that. You did that. But I'm sure he felt like my changed personality because of dealing with all the horrible stuff was.

It was under my control and not a reaction, you know? So, yeah, it's really, really hard. It's really hard. And you know, the other thing that you said that I, again, I was, I thought this was another moment. I was blown away. You said people who move in and outta your interpersonal bubble is [00:21:00] largely up to you.

Not always, and not entirely, but more often than you think. And then you followed up with a statement. I just thought, geez, bad people are remarkably good at making other people feel trapped. Yes. So how did they do that? Oh, I mean. There's an entire movement now to help women understand what coercive control is.

Mm-hmm. How do they make women feel trapped? They separate their object from their friends and family. They tell them how to dress. They control what money they spend, even if it's their own. And it's all really about entrapment. And when I talk about interpersonal bubbles, I talk about it in many different types of relationships.

It's not only about a spouse or a partner. You can let people into your interpersonal bubble while you're driving to work and some idiot cuts you off. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. You're right. If you ever want to get to know somebody much better than you ever wanted to, you know, engage in road rage [00:22:00] where you have an accident with them, and then you've gotta live with them all through your legal process and your court stuff, and you could have just kept them out in the first instance.

So what do you suggest somebody does when you're starting to see your world close in on you like that? With the course of control, I think you have to take stock of what freedom you have left and then. Optimize that I, I'm not, I'm not the kind of psychologist who says to everybody, oh, you need to go into therapy.

It's great to have support. It doesn't always have to be from a therapist. It can be from a close family member or somebody in your religious group or something, or something like that. I. I tend to look at therapy in sort of a non-traditional way. I, I don't believe in a medical model of therapy where you walk in, [00:23:00] you are sick and you talk to somebody about how to, how to get better.

I look at psychological processes, helping processes as. Where the helping person is a facilitator and the helping person is also not going to pathologize you or make you feel bad that you have a problem. Yeah. It's, I agree. I, I, I've, I used to not think that way, but I've now come to see that there's lots of ways to heal and it, it is really, it's.

In, in so many different ways. It's really about a sensitivity to what works and what's speaking to you. And, and it could be, yeah, it's some, not, not everybody needs therapy. And I also find, and I wonder if you do too, people overestimate the power of therapy. It's almost like if you send someone to somebody to therapy, it's a magic pill.

No, it's not. Yeah. No. Nothing special happens in that room unless that person wants something to happen. And a lot of people, even when they want change, they don't really want change. They, they, they're very resistant. [00:24:00] So how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? You can't. It has to decide to change on its own.

Right? That's right. It takes a very long time, but it has to change on its own. That's right. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think people understand that. Why do you think people almost see therapy? Is, is a, is magical. I always used to say I'm not a fairy godmother. I wish I did. I wish I had that wand, but I don't.

So. It's worse now more than ever. Oh, is it? Because Gen Z loved to talk about how dysfunctional they are and how triggered they are and how a DH they are and how anxious they are and how depressed they are. So now you can get therapy by text, by phone, by carrier pigeon. It's really, uh, it's really incredible to me and.

I always, I, I really, for those of you out there who like to use the word trigger, [00:25:00] I hate that word. And the reason why I hate it is it infers that there's nothing you could do to stop yourself from being triggered. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes away all of your power, you know? So today, a lot of that Gen Z generation, they get triggered and their way of dealing with it is They crash.

Yeah. They shut down. Yeah. They, they lay in bed all day. They play video games. They wa they binge watch Hulu. And I think that, Hey, look. If you gotta shut down for a little while, you have to shut down. I do it. I don't know anybody who doesn't do it, but you'll have to observe what's happening to you during that process.

Yeah, this, this cannot be the rule. It has to be the exception. You know? You like ice cream, eat ice cream, just don't eat, you know, two gallons of ice cream. Right. Right. [00:26:00] I haven't been practicing in over 10 years, so I have not seen that population. I mean, I meet them all the time and I'm raised one. I have a Gen Z child, but I, but yeah, I haven't seen what they're like in the office.

That's interesting. I hadn't, but I can see that. I can see that. And I think in fact, that's the hope to me. I took that away from your book, that bad people Bible is really about. You have more power than you think that you have. Yes, the world's not an easy place. Don't expect it to be, but you still have more power than you think you have.

Yeah. One of my Amazon reviews said that while they were reading it, they realized it was tough love, but it was really love. You know? Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I, I appreciated, I appreciated that people are liking the book. I mean, I'm, I'm very, very pleased I've written 21 books and that one, that one seems to be getting the most positive attention.

I also wrote the book, anger Management. Which was a, it was a while ago [00:27:00] that I wrote that book, but, uh, this one's better. And I, I have an even better one, even better, couple of them coming out. I have a book on mindfulness, uh, coming out that's full of very, very good advice on how to stay in the present.

Another book called Foundation, which is a mental health self-care book, where you could run yourself through a whole platform of problem solving exercises to help pull you outta your funk. That's awesome. I love that. I, no, I, I, first of all, I thought bad people Bible, the title was catchy. It was really powerful.

It, it, it sort of speaks to where people are with whether increased awareness of tox, toxic and bad relationships. But I also just, I just thought it was practical. It was, um. It, it was not so much about the bad person, but about what you're going to do with living in a world that's less than perfect. And I, we need that message.

That's, I, that's what I really appreciated about it, was just the, the helpfulness of the message. So I, I would love to jump [00:28:00] over to the podcast extra and talk more about. What do you do when you realize the relationship is not what you thought? And we can kind of practically maybe use the a, b, C method or some whatever you think is really useful for that.

But if people would like to find out more about you and more about your writing, where should they go to find that information? I think the best place to go is my Teachable site, and soon you'll be able to go to foundation. Co. Which is another, I call them universities because there's a, because the, it's a community and it's about teaching, you know, not diagnosing.

It's about teaching. It's about teaching coping, you know, it's about people who are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and people help one another in those communities. Foundation isn't. Completely up yet, but people [00:29:00] should keep an eye on it. Uh, and I think that, uh, you know, my, my members talk to me and when enough of them say the same thing, I say, okay, let's, let's do an hour seminar and then people can come.

That's wonderful. Yeah. I felt that there's a lot of empowerment. What you're, what you're really promoting is a lot of empowerment. You, thank you so much for this. This has been a wonderful interview. I deeply appreciated meeting you. Thanks for having me. It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over and you're wondering yourself, was it really that bad?

Or maybe I'm just being dramatic. So you start to draft that, I'm sorry, text again, because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable. And you know this loop because you've been there before. But I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist and for 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how [00:30:00] they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.

Here's the truth. Recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a private, always available coaching app built from my work and my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered inside it.

You'll get five minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive. Check-ins that meet you exactly where you are. Whether you're feeling strong, shattered or numb boundary scripts that help you say no without overexplaining Grounding tools that work fast when you're activated and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even on days when it feels like you're not.

There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment. Just practical support right when you need it, reclaim you real hope in real time, right in your pocket. And it's a coaching support, not therapy [00:31:00] or emergency care. Learn more@studio.com slash Dr. Kerry. So start your healing today and reclaim you.

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