The Scary Reason Why Gaslighting Actually Works (And You’re a Part of the Problem)

Have you ever tried to walk away from a toxic person, only to find yourself right back in the middle of their reality?

This week, Dr. Robin Stern (author of The Gaslight Effect) joins Dr. Kerry for a conversation that will change how you view manipulation. Most people think gaslighting is just about lying—but the truth is much darker. It’s a "relational mess" that requires two people to function.

Previous Interviews with Dr. Stern

What's wrong with me? The Power of Gaslighting to Confuse and Control: Interview with Dr. Robin Stern

Breaking Chains: Dr. Kerry McAvoy's Triumph Over Marital Gaslighting and Narcissism

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT  

Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here. 

MORE ABOUT THE PODCAST EXTRA INTERVIEW  

🔹 Dr. Stern shares the shift that breaks the cycle for good: "Don't allow somebody to matter more than you matter." 

In this members-only bonus, Dr. Stern and Dr. Kerry unpack how to stay open and connected in relationships without surrendering yourself in the process. 

👉 Get immediate access to this extended interview

DR. STERN'S BOOKS 

• The Gaslight Effect: How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life: https://amzn.to/4b50aRu 

• The Gaslight Effect Recovery Guide: https://amzn.to/40qzc0B 

MORE ABOUT DR. ROBIN STERN  

Dr. Robin Stern, Ph.D., is a licensed psychoanalyst, Co-Founder and Senior Advisor to the Director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and one of the world's leading authorities on gaslighting. She is the author of The Gaslight Effect and host of The Gaslight Effect Podcast. 

Website: robinstern.com  

Podcast: The Gaslight Effect Podcast (available on all platforms)

Resources

• ReclaimYou: Dr. Kerry's AI-powered coaching app
• The Complete Recovery Collection: Narcissistic abuse resources
• First Steps to Leaving: Online self-paced digital course
• Toxic-Free Relationship Club: Live coaching & community support

Follow Dr. Kerry!

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. 

As an Amazon affiliate, commission is earned from qualifying purchases.

This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

Transcript

Can’t Walk Away? How Abusers Use Gaslighting to Keep You Psychologically Trapped

 

Robin Stern: [00:00:00] Who am I and what do I want? What do I think about myself if I'm not hearing it reflected by you? If you are not telling me about myself, who is myself, 

Dr. Kerry: you can see in certain relationships how that would make you extraordinarily vulnerable to gaslighting because you've essentially said, I'm willing to open up even more so than normal.

Dr. Robin Stern: What makes us vulnerable to gaslighting? Is there something essentially different about some of us versus others? We like to think victims are weak, but is that simply it? Well, to get into this fascinating conversation, 

Dr. Kerry: Dr. Robin Stern joins me again. She is an author as well as a podcaster of the Gaslight Effect.

Well, Dr. Stern, thank you so much for being on the show. You're one of my favorites. I don't know if you know that or not, but you and I had the most fascinating conversations about gaslighting 

Dr. Robin Stern: and, you know, Carrie, I, first of all, please call me Robin. 

Dr. Kerry: Okay. 

Dr. Robin Stern: And, um, [00:01:00] I just love being with you and, and I do feel a connection and that's very special.

And so I just, I just enjoy every time I think that I'm gonna see you and then happy to see you and schedule a ski. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. I know. And you have a podcast and a book by the same name called The Gaslight Effect. Yes. Do they have that? Yes. And I love your specialty on gaslighting. 'cause there's so much that's we don't understand about it yet.

It's such a pervasive part of our lives. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And you and I, one of the things that we didn't follow up on our last interview was, and I'll make sure for those you're listening to put in the show notes how you can listen to our other two interviews. But we talked a lot about gaslighting, the dynamic of it, and you made.

Comment that blew me away that in order for gaslighting to work, we have to wanna preserve the relationship with the individual who's gaslighting us. And I'll tell you, I felt like the world stopped when you said that. I had never thought about that before. Yeah. So why don't you say more about that and let's talk about what makes us vulnerable in relationships to gaslighting.

Dr. Robin Stern: Yeah, I, it [00:02:00] is so important because we need to really understand what we're dealing with, if we're going to be able to address it accurately and in a way where we can then free ourselves ultimately, if we can't change it from within. And the, the two parts are, I, I don't wanna lose you. You are my soulmate, or We have a great life together, or I just have that intense connection, or, uh, you're my best friend, or, I thought you were, that's one part of being so vulnerable to the loss that could happen if you try to stop the gas siding, if you interfere, if you say no.

It's not going there anymore, and you are vulnerable because there could be that loss. The other piece, which is I think even more unknown or less talked about, if you will, is how difficult it is to walk [00:03:00] away. From this person whose opinion you want to shift. So you tell me, oh my God, you, you have no memory.

Like, come on, here we are again. Or, that never happened. That never happened, or you're so paranoid and I, as the person receiving the message. I'm devastated that you think that of me, and so I'm on this mission to defend myself. I'm not paranoid. And here's the example one, example two. No, no, no. I'm, I don't have a bad memory.

How can you say that? I ha I remember a laundry list. I remember my calendar every day, and it's really hard to walk away without getting your approval. So you become important enough and so important that the relationship is not only about nourishment for my soul and um, about sex and about intimacy.

It's [00:04:00] also about approval. 

Dr. Kerry: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I was, when I was listening to you, describe those two and you were still on the first point. I wondered where you're gonna go with the second point because one of the things I think, at least for me in that toxic relationship, part of my problem was, yeah, I wanted his approval and I really enjoyed the connection, but I also needed to belong to feel like I was fully me.

Do you see that as well as a, another vulnerability in some victims? 

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, let's see if we're talking about the same thing, tell me, okay. 

Dr. Kerry: Okay. 

Dr. Robin Stern: What, what it was like for you. 

Dr. Kerry: Well, I didn't feel complete as a person without a relationship. I mean, my life was that I went literally from childhood home to into college and right straight into marriage.

And then when that marriage ended two years later and back into a second marriage after the first husband passed away. So when I was on my own, I really didn't have a full sense of me who I was, what I wanted, where I was gonna go, and I felt like. Being in a relationship sort of kind of completed me, sort of [00:05:00] that Jerry McGuire movie feeling is that he completed me.

Mm-hmm. But they never really did. I mean, the truth of the matter was in those relationships, I wasn't fully satisfied. I didn't realize it was a lack of a full flushing out my identity. That was my problems. I hadn't really spent more time to get comfortable with me, make friends with me. That's what actually happened after the second relationship.

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, that's a beautiful way to put it. Mm-hmm. I love that you've better make friends with you. I think often it's about when we're not alone, there are many things that we don't have to act, um, on by ourselves. So what are we gonna do tonight? You know, what do I wanna eat? What happened yesterday. Those are all become relational conversations and we bounce off each other, and so that kind of belonging is very hard to get used to.

Suddenly you don't have it. And so who am I and what do I want? What do I think about myself if I'm not hearing it reflected by you? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, 

Dr. Robin Stern: right. [00:06:00] If you are not telling me about myself. Who is myself. Yeah. And how do I, how do I begin to build that idea of the best self I wanna be? 

Dr. Kerry: And you can see in certain relationships how that would make you extraordinarily vulnerable to gaslighting because you've essentially said, I'm willing to open up even more so than normal.

And I think our sense itself is always vulnerable for shaping in any relationship. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But it, I think it really opens up. For even greater influence with somebody who's toxic or emotionally immature, because we're essentially saying, I need this to feel like me. So I'm almost open to adopting what you think, feel, want, and see instead of valuing how I feel or see those things.

Does that make sense what I'm saying? Oh 

Dr. Robin Stern: yeah. Yes. Yeah. And also what. The, the emphasis is going to be on what you need and how you see it and how you want me to see it. I mean, what came to my mind as you were saying, that was this movie that I think is [00:07:00] an incredible movie about gaslighting and cults, and I don't remember, um, the exact name.

But it's something like Mary Martha, um, Marlene and I remember that, and I, this is, may not be the most accurate rendition of what happened in that moment, but as she's meeting the cult leader for the first time, she's being interviewed by him as well. And he said to her, you know, if you wanna belong to this group with the promise of a better life, right, you are going to have to prove to me that I can trust you.

Which means that whatever goes on here, can't tell anyone. And if you can leave here today, after our time together, and you can go out to the world and not tell anyone what happened here, come back and report that to me truthfully, then I will be able to trust you and then you will have earned your way.

So tables are turned right from the beginning. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Dr. Robin Stern: And you're [00:08:00] not looking to yourself to think. How do I feel right now? How do I feel? Wait a minute. I came to see if I trusted him. Mm-hmm. And that was telling me that I have to do these things. So there's this like. Complete shift in where you're looking, right.

A complete shift in, I mean, it's just completely sh manipulating. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like, yeah, you said that. And by the way, you're right, it's called Mary Martha May. Marlene is the name of the movie. It came out in 2011. Yep. 

Dr. Robin Stern: And it's 

Dr. Kerry: a 

Dr. Robin Stern: great movie. 

Dr. Kerry: It's a great movie. Okay. I, I haven't watched it, so now you've got me something to, to check out.

It. It's interesting how some of us, and I don't know, all of us, and maybe we could even jump into how attachment styles fit into this, how some of us. Are a little more kind of like a fluid system in the sense that we're more open to impression and influence, and then these people who are so opportunistic, see that, I mean, I'm thinking back to my early stage of that when I met the psychopath, is that they perceive that and they start to pressed to see [00:09:00] just like.

This example of the movie, how far you'll go to, how compliant you'll be, and it's amazing how, just like your example was, he phrased it is to see something beautiful about her, her trustworthiness. You know, in my case it was to see whether or not, how vulnerable I wanted, how, how much authenticity I wanted in a relationship, which was a really big buzzword for me.

So it's interesting how they kind of, they sort of, in a way they get you to adopt their language, but the same way they're sort of adopting your language as a way to convince you that you're on the same page without realizing that it's exploitation. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Well, they're taking something that you are saying you want.

Dr. Kerry: Hmm. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Then they're kind of turning it inside out to manipulate you for their own reason. I mean, I'll, I'll share this story. My God, I haven't thought about this in so many years, but, um, I had a colleague who, uh, was I met in a, um, some kind of a therapy retreat weekend, and we got along really well and it was not at all a [00:10:00] romantic thing.

It was just, we were good friends, but he was deep into this therapy world that I was not deep into. But I went to the lectures and I was in therapy with somebody connected to them. And at some point he said, you know, you're entrepreneurial, I'm entrepreneurial. I had private practice, it was thriving. And he had a, like a, uh, executive search business or something like that.

And he said, why don't we open up another business? And you'll put your clinical expertise in, and I'll use my business expertise and we'll help people get part-time jobs, not full-time jobs. Great. And you'll make a lot of money more so than you would in your practice. Okay. Tell me more. He said, but you know, I really like to have my business meetings like while I'm holding someone and I said.

What are you talking about? He said, well, you know, we were actually having the meeting in my apartment. I lived alone at the time, it was many, many years ago, before kids, before husbands. [00:11:00] And uh, he said, why don't we just, why don't we like sit on the couch? I said, you know, I'm not comfortable with that. And he said, you're not comfortable or you're afraid.

And I said. Um, well, I'm a little afraid now because what are you talking about? 

Dr. Kerry: Right, right. You know, 

Dr. Robin Stern: but I'm just not comfortable with it. He said, I think that it's very comfortable. You have this great couch. We'll just lie here together. Married, you have a boyfriend. No, you know, no intimacy, physical, but it'll help us to really solidify that vulnerable connection We both feel.

You feel it too, don't you? I said, well, I do feel open with you. I do feel like I'd like to, uh, take our relationship and continue it and deepen it with maybe a joint project, but no, I don't wanna lie on the couch. So I managed not to lie on the [00:12:00] couch, but I didn't manage to convince myself that I was not lying on the couch because of.

Discomfort somehow he continued to go on and on about how it's really because you're afraid. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. You have 

Dr. Robin Stern: to be afraid with me. And, you know, slowing his cadence, looking at me directly in the eyes, using my vulnerability in that moment to try to tell me what I was feeling. And so back to your earlier question, when you're used to having somebody tell you what you're feeling.

Or invite you to have the feelings that they're telling you that you have. Even if you're not completely certain about those feelings, at least you're gonna be in that conversation then of all of a sudden you're alone. You don't have that, whether you're belonging to someone or that relational mess, which often it is, and relational mixup, it's hard to then tease out, well, what do I really feel?[00:13:00]

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Have you seen the movie Inception that the essential question is can you plant an idea in somebody else's brain that's not originally their own? In the movie, sort of like, I don't know, it's really hard to do, and I'm thinking, no, it's not. It happens all the time. That's a great example. Your, your example was he was trying to convince you that you're afraid when really what's happening is that situation wasn't safe.

Dr. Robin Stern: That's right. Exactly. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Fascinating. 

Dr. Robin Stern: And it, you know, it was, and there was actually a whole, a group of people who, I wanna say a lot of, a lot of therapists, and I, I don't mean this to put down retreats and therapy because I'm a therapist. I've taken many patients on retreats, and it can be an incredible experience to have that extended period of time.

But when somebody tells you what they feel. And your first instinct as a therapist is to say, or as another person? [00:14:00] No, you don't feel that way. You feel this way. It is very destabilizing if you are very close to that person, if they know you really well, if you trust them. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Robin Stern: To be able to tell the truth.

I'm thinking about someone now who was in one of those groups and, and said, well, you know, I, I found out that I really have a much worse opinion of myself than I thought I did. Tell me more. How did you find out? Well, so and so told me that so well, what was that based on? And so whether it's based on something that you think is valid when somebody who you completely trusted and believe has your go, your own, your good in their heart, or your, uh, your interest in their heart, it's really hard to say No, Carrie, that's completely off.

Dr. Kerry: It is, and especially when, you know, I think that that's a huge vulnerability in [00:15:00]therapy and that there are not good therapists. That you go into a setting believing that this person has your best interest and that somehow they're the expert of humans, the human psychology of humans, that, and therefore they're gonna be an expert of you.

That does make you extremely vulnerable. I got to the point where I learned when I would. Phrase something, and I'd be curious how you did it. I would phrase it, I'd say, what do you think about this idea? And then I would throw out whatever it was, or, you know, one of the things I'm wondering was this, do you think there's any that feels close or not?

I would make sure that I would offer them an ability like, no, that's not close at all. Like, oh, okay. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: I could have gotten it wrong and then we'd move right back. We'd move on. Yeah. But I, I really learned to offer an out, because you're right, it, it, it's a. Powerful relationships. I think this is the other uncomfortable part of all of this.

Powerful relationships are intoxicating and if you're not really a very ethical person, it's not that hard to walk off the line and become [00:16:00] manipulative yourself. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Or even with, um, doctors, I've done a lot of consulting on medical gaslighting where, you know, I had this incredible, incredibly close relationship in a very positive way with my obstetrician when I was had children.

Some point after one of my kids was born, I had taken, um, some medicine. It turned out the end of the story first that I was allergic to this medicine and in a way where it gave me some, uh, variant of, uh, hepatitis. But I didn't know that I started having symptoms and I'm calling this guy who was larger than life.

He had delivered both of my children. He was a big name at the hospital and I'm saying, you know, I am really not feeling well. And his response was, honey, just go and have a drink tonight. 

Dr. Kerry: Oh shit. 

Dr. Robin Stern: And you'll, you know, and you'll relax because you're a mother and now you have two children. It's a lot. And I, I thought, of course he's right.

And so I went and I had a drink, and the [00:17:00] next day I was even sicker and I called him up. I said, I, I just don't know what's going on with me, but I, I feel like I need to come in. He said. Just stay with it. Have, have a drink tonight and after two days you're gonna feel a lot better. And of course, because I did have the variant of hepatitis, not only did I not feel better, right.

But I felt really sick and it was, I was very ill and it was so hard for me to believe that he was wrong. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Dr. Robin Stern: You know, not, not about the drink, obviously. Yeah. You don't have to drink if you're sick, but like. How did he not know? How did he gimme the wrong advice and how did he insist with certainty? And that's a big piece of it too.

The gaslighting that trying to implant, there's certain, you know, insist with certainty that that's what was going on for me. So much so that I was walking around saying, I'm just stressed out. Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. And it goes back to where we started today and that is that the one who's accepting it? [00:18:00] Is preserving the connection because if you said, no, you're wrong.

I'm sorry doctor, you, you've delivered two of my kids. But I think you're really missing it here. That would've challenged it in a way that would've probably felt very uncomfortable for you. 

Dr. Robin Stern: I would've felt disrespectful. 

Dr. Kerry: Yes. Exactly. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Exactly. And so, you know, that's another thing. Back to your question about how does this happen, um, we come to those relationships with feelings about the person that are not about that vulnerability necessarily, but are, are often about the power dynamic.

I respect you. I've read all your books. You delivered my children. You saved my mother's life. You, you know, you've been my teacher for years. You're the best friend of my therapist, and, and he trusts you. I mean, all this stuff. Or you are the first person to ever recognize that about me. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Dr. Robin Stern: You know, um, uh, one, a patient of mine was very vulnerable to a guy who said, I see that you are trying so hard to work on yourself.

[00:19:00] So I'm just gonna give you all the help that I possibly can give you. And ultimately, he gave her advice, like told this story maybe even with you, that they're walking down the street and um, you know, and he said she had to keep her head down. Down. Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Robin Stern: And all in the spirit of, you know, I'm just trying to make our relationship better.

I see you and I see what you're doing more than you see yourself. 

Dr. Kerry: When I hear you say things like that, that all of that is so important. We want those things in a relationship. We wanna be seen, we want someone to know us. We want somebody to even sometimes to rescue us if we feel like we're out of our element.

And so there's a part of me that says, in order to protect ourselves, the answer can't be. We just don't look for those things. It has to be something else because it's not wrong to want. I think that's what bothers me about today's culture is we come in with such a black and white. Um, 

Dr. Robin Stern: right. 

Dr. Kerry: Sort of perspective.

It's that just don't be vulnerable, then that's all this would go away. Like, no, it's not that [00:20:00]simple. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Right, right. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. So what do you think is a better way through this? 

Dr. Robin Stern: Staying to what you know inside? Mm-hmm. Staying grounded in your own perceptions, and often that means taking a little break. Maybe it's a weekend, maybe it's just a cup of coffee.

Maybe it's just getting outta the house or, or being by yourself and saying, wait a minute. What do I really feel? What would I tell a friend if I saw my friend suddenly looking down at the street, or I saw my friend suddenly having a scotch three nights in a row, or vodka, whatever the drink was because they weren't feeling well and the doctor gave them that prescription.

What would I say? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Maybe you're just too bought into that person, and sometimes maybe I didn't write enough about. He said, if you can nudge yourself to the point where you can take a little step, that may be the [00:21:00] gateway to a larger opening or a many more steps, you know, you know what? I'm just not gonna do it today.

You know what? Maybe you're right. And I did say this, I did talk about this in my book. That is the way to get out of the power circle. Maybe you're right, but I'm just not up to it today. Or I'll try it tomorrow or, yeah, let me think about it. And yet, even in doing that, you are pulling back a little bit and when you want to be that soulmate connection, you don't even wanna pull back.

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, no. I know 

Dr. Robin Stern: when somebody comes to me, Carrie, and they say, oh my God, he's my soulmate. I get worried. 

Dr. Kerry: Hmm. Yeah, I agree. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation today. So how can people find out more about the podcast as well as the book, and also about what you're doing right now, and I wanna jump over and talk to you in a podcast extra about what can we do about how to stay vulnerable in a relationship, but also maintain integrity with ourselves.

So how can people learn out [00:22:00] more about you? 

Dr. Robin Stern: So they can find me@robinstern.com and a podcast is there and my work at Yale and emotional intelligence, which I'm very proud of, and the world really needs more of it now. Um, right. 

Dr. Kerry: We do 

Dr. Robin Stern: there and uh, my books are there and. Welcome visitors all the time.

Thank you. And thank you, Carrie, for this conversation and for your insightful and incisive questions. They're always provocative in, in the best kind of way, so thank you. 

Dr. Kerry: I deeply appreciate it. I deeply appreciate the work that you're doing as well. Thank you. 

Dr. Robin Stern: Thank you. 

Dr. Kerry: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over and you're wondering to yourself, was it really that bad?

Or maybe I'm just being dramatic. So you start to draft that, I'm sorry, text again, because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable. And you know this loop because you've been there before. But I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist and for [00:23:00] 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.

Here's the truth. Recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a private, always available coaching app built from my work and my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered inside it.

You'll get five minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive. Check-ins that meet you exactly where you are. Whether you're feeling strong, shattered or numb boundary scripts that help you say no without overexplaining grounding tools that work fast when you're activated and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even on days when it feels like you're not.

There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment, just practical support right when you need it, reclaim you. [00:24:00] Real hope in real time. Right in your pocket and it's a coaching support, not therapy or emergency care. Learn more@studio.com slash Dr. Carey. So start your healing today and reclaim you.