The #1 Mistake People Make When Divorcing a Narcissist

Are you walking into your divorce expecting the court to finally see the truth about your narcissistic ex? 

This week, divorce attorney Hannah Bell Hembree joins Dr. Kerry to pull back the curtain on what really happens in the courtroom when you're leaving a narcissist. With nearly two decades of legal experience and her own custody battle behind her, Hannah shares the hard truths every survivor needs to hear before they file. 

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🔹 Is the court biased against men — or women? In this members-only bonus, Hannah Bell Hembree gives her candid, real-world take on courtroom bias. Her answer may surprise you.  

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MORE ABOUT HANNAH BELL HEMBREE  

Podcast: Not Saving It for Later 

Community & Free Divorce Prep Course 

Instagram: @HannahHembreeBell 

HANNAH BELL HEMBREE is a divorce attorney based in Austin, Texas, where she leads a firm of nearly 50 people dedicated to helping marriages end well. She is also the founder of the My Confident Life Circle, an online community supporting women through divorce and beyond, and the host of the new podcast Not Saving It for Later. Drawing on her own experience navigating divorce and two custody modifications, Hannah equips women with the practical strategies and mindset shifts they need to protect their kids, their money, and their sanity.

Resources

• ReclaimYou: Dr. Kerry's AI-powered coaching app
• The Complete Recovery Collection: Narcissistic abuse resources
• First Steps to Leaving: Online self-paced digital course
• Toxic-Free Relationship Club: Live coaching & community support

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. 

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This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

Transcript

Divorcing Your Narcissistic Ex? Here's What You Need to Know Before Filing

Hannah Hembree Bell: [00:00:00] You don't have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines, so of be like, I'm only in it for the kids. I'm not playing the game. You're playing the game. You're just losing. You probably been in a situation for a long time where those are not necessarily characteristics you fully developed and owned right now 'cause you're just been trying to survive for a long time and you finally got the strength to leave and you're at the end of your row before 

Dr. Kerry: conflict equals retaliation.

And vengeance and grudge holding. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: A big mistake I see women make is they're annoying. Definitely not a good co-parent, definitely a jerk. Definitely an a o calling him a narcissist and then walking into their divorce lawyer's office with that word. What you're gonna get, whether you know this is happening to you or not, is a big fat eye roll.

I'm rolling my eyes as big as I can. If you're listening from that law firm, more than likely. Because it's a buzz word because people use it too much. [00:01:00] They use it to mean things. It doesn't actually mean.

Dr. Kerry: Every narcissistic abuse victim walks into court hoping for justice. But what if that's not the court's purpose? To discuss this in depth, Hannah Hembre Bell joins me to discuss what is actually going to happen in court and how you can be your best advocate. She's a family law attorney and host a new podcast called.

Not saving it for later. Well, Hannah Hembry belt, I'm so excited to have you on today. Why don't you tell people a little bit about who are you and what are you doing? I know you just said you have a podcast launching as of today, I think you said, right? 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah, 

Dr. Kerry: this 

Hannah Hembree Bell: week. 

Dr. Kerry: Oh, that's so cool. How exciting. So, tell us who you are and how you got interested in this whole realm of narcissistic abuse, but also trauma abuse to women.

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah, so I am a divorced divorce lawyer, uh, based in Austin, Texas. I lead a firm here of inching up on like 50 people where we help marriages end well, and we're like, not [00:02:00] Kumbaya lawyers. We don't, I mean, my own experience, um, helps inform that for sure, but we try to help people. And as well as they can and get on with the next chapter of their life.

I also founded an online community, the My Confident Life Circle, where we help support women going through divorce and beyond. So like I am in the business of helping people in divorce use it as a way to choose whether they're gonna be bitter or better. And I pretty much assume that everybody I'm talking to, if they're listening to me for more than 25 seconds.

Wants to be better. And so that's the focus of everything I'm doing at the law firm. We work with men and women. Really it's about half and half with the circle, it's women only, and with the podcast it's geared towards helping support women through divorce. So kind of both sides. And what got me interested in this universe is partially my own experience.

I am divorced and have been through two. Custody [00:03:00] modifications. Um, one is still ongoing and that experience has informed the entire way I practice. It's why I started a law firm. I wanted to go back and help women and be the sort of lawyer I wished I would've had at the time. And then through my experience as a lawyer and working with different people over the years.

Now at this point, thousands of people through the firm. I have started to see some patterns, some mistakes, and I'm so big on just the practical and going back and trying to stop women from making the mistakes that I personally made or that I see clients make that could cost them, their kids, their money or their sanity and trying to cut it off at the past so that doesn't happen.

Speaker 2: Well, what are some of the mistakes that you're seeing that are happening? 

Hannah Hembree Bell: I think people really can get caught up in the blame game, the TikTok world of narcissism stuff. Okay. And it really, [00:04:00] really can be harmful, in my opinion. And this is, everybody take this with a grain of salt because I want you, I wanna just put out there, I believe you, what you're experiencing.

I understand. I can empathize with in some situations, so don't take anything I'm saying to minimize your experience, and I am focused on how that's going to impact your life and your custody and your money. Now what happens, I think sometimes is, and look, it's awesome. We have this online world where we can connect with people across the globe on issues that before we thought we were a universe of one, and no one ever felt like that.

You don't have to feel that way anymore. You can just go on Reddit. 

Dr. Kerry: Okay. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Now what happens is you can get in an echo chamber and people start talking about narcissism. And I say like with a little in versus a big in, right? And Dr. Carey, I know that, you know what I mean? Because there's big in narcissism sort of that disrupts one's daily life and more psychological [00:05:00] conditions sort.

Stuff and you know, personality disorders, and then there's little in narcissism that just means a really self-absorbed kind of punk jerk, a-hole. Okay. So I call it a run of the mill, a-hole, and a and a big, you know, then you might have a narcissist. And I think what happens is the big mistake I see women make is they're annoying.

Definitely not. Um, a good co-parent, definitely a jerk, definitely an a-hole calling him a narcissist and then walking into their divorce lawyer's office with that word. And then what you're gonna get, whether you know this is happening to you or not, is a big fat. I roll, I'm rolling my eyes as big as I can.

If you're listening from that law firm, more than likely because it's a buzz word because people use it too much. They use it to mean things, it doesn't actually mean, and then often what happens is somebody starts picking apart your case and starts seeing some of the things you are doing. And a lot of the times the person [00:06:00] accusing the other one of being a narcissist is actually doing.

Some of the abusive behaviors, so you just wanna proceed with some caution and some self-awareness and some willingness to take a look at your own side of the table. I'm like, okay, I'm kind of caught up in the internet universe and the memes and whatever, and it makes me feel better to have someone to blame and to make the villain.

But remember, when you give them the villain, you're taking on the victim and whatever's happened to you. My, my hope would be that you don't stay in a victim mindset. So I guess it's like that. It's like claiming that for yourself and then using it in a way that's detrimental to your future case and your kids and your well.

Whatever they're called, whatever you call this, jerk to me, it's about how we manage it and deal with it in your case and in your life, no matter what they might be called. Because I think a lot of times, using that word can backfire on you. 

Dr. Kerry: What do you think [00:07:00] people are wanting to convey when they say the word narcissist?

Because it sounds like they're trying to communicate something, but I'm hearing that it's not working. That's what you're, you're saying we don't hear it in the way that you want us to hear it. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: This is my own experience, but generally speaking, there is a bias right now that I see that I've observed. This is anecdotal in lawyers that I know with an eye roll of, oh, I bet he's a narcissist, and they immediately discredit you.

And they immediately don't believe you unless you've got some really good stuff. And it's hard because it's hard to disprove a negative or whatever. Right. Or prove a negative. So what'll happen is people bring in some evidence, like little bits and pieces, and I'm, you know, I'm holding up a piece of paper, like a, a piece, a text or something, email.

And they're showing you these things that happened and they're not showing you all their responses or something. And then later we see more and like this isn't quite what you said. It's like they're overplaying their hand a [00:08:00] lot of times. Mm-hmm. And as we dig, we see, look sis. I'm not saying those were great.

Your side of the plate isn't clean either, and it can color the way they consider your entire case. Like I made a whole video on the internet. Um, that's like, be careful lest you ever walk into that lawyer office and say you, you're divorcing a narcissist, because I think generally speaking, your case will not go great.

Let that lawyer decide for themselves. Mm mm Give them the evidence, give them the text. Give don't, don't say the word. So you don't get that label. Let them decide. Let them make that conclusion. And then you don't have this resistance to overcome. And like if y'all, can everybody give the lawyer a little bit of credit or like.

Grace in this. Here's why, because our brain, and this is, I'm not meaning to go in your territory, Dr. Kerry, you correct me if I'm wrong, but develops heuristics, these mental shortcuts of how we [00:09:00]process information to go about our daily life, right? Like, oh, I see that. I see that thing that's yellow and it's kind of shaped in a smiley face way, and it's on a kitchen counter.

That must be a banana, right? And so it gets these bits and pieces of information now. Our brain does that in complicated ways all the time. And in the divorce world, what happens is, and I didn't know this, Todd, I was doing it for a minute. Your brain. Creates these heuristics, these mental shortcuts. Really, they're like tropes.

If y'all have heard of tropes, like in lit literature or in music, it creates these tropes. Oh, that's the woman divorcing the narcissist. And I'm using quotes. Oh, that's the new mom who thinks only she should have her kids. Oh, that's the dad who only says he wants custody of the kids because he doesn't wanna pay child support, and their brain is trying to make sense of information when.

Too much is coming at them every day. So they're not like trying to be a jerk to you, but you're gonna [00:10:00] trigger their brains the things. It's a skill, but you're gonna trigger that in them. So I would tell you, if you think from listen to Dr. Carey's podcast and you've got all this information, col, it's the same advice you're gonna give the court.

You are not gonna go into court and claim narcissism more than likely let the thing speak for itself. That legal term, we have RAs Ipsa, um, I like, it's Latin, so forgive me if that's wrong way to say it, but like the thing speaks for itself. So what you do is you give the evidence, you give the text, you give the audio recording and let the judge decide.

And that's the same thing you're gonna do for your lawyer. And look, if that's what's going on, your lawyer is gonna figure it out. That's the story that's gonna be told, and I just don't want you to sort of make your whole case harder on yourself. 

Dr. Kerry: I hear that. I think what's really hard, and I, 'cause I hear lots of people talk about this, is that they don't know what to say because of course of control for example, is so extraordinarily subtle.

And when you say things out loud people they'll say, well that doesn't really sound, 

Hannah Hembree Bell: [00:11:00] yeah, 

Dr. Kerry: rough. Lemme give you, for instance, mom, when I was in that relationship and it was so stressful on me, I had a lot of inflammation and my knees would hurt and he would want me to take my hand and help me outta the car knowing my knees hurt and that I really actually couldn't lift from my knees.

And he would do that over and over. Hurting, finishing, destroying my knees. I had to actually tell him to stop that I could get myself out of the car. Now, somebody hearing that would say, oh, that sounds so sweet and generous. Yeah, but he knew that it was creating pain for me and he didn't care. So it's those types of things.

You end up saying, well, how do I explain to somebody, this person's controlling what we eat when we eat, that they're not letting me carry in the groceries. They're kind of taking away my autonomy. They're, they're robbing me of all this freedom and all these areas to where I can't breathe and I have no privacy, and I don't feel safe in my own house anymore.

I don't say feel safe to be myself. This, that's the stuff that gets really, really hard to explain. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: My question would be, Dr. Carey, why explain it at all? 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. Well, that's a good point. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Here's what I mean. That's 

Dr. Kerry: a good point. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: I think that people often come to [00:12:00] divorce wanting justice. 

Dr. Kerry: I 

Hannah Hembree Bell: do too. I had a client a long time ago, a client's relative or something say to me, honey, the last place you go for justice is the courthouse steps.

Now that's a pretty cynical approach, but the justice you want. It, the vindication, the sympathy, all the things you want. Ladies and guys, I guess if they're listening, um, you're not gonna be satisfied with how it goes at court. The court system is not designed for you to be heard. The court system is not designed to be therapeutic.

And in fact, the opposite often plays out. Remember, you are in an institution. The institution's job is fundamentally to sever. A contractual relationship that you and the other party have with the state and severing contracts has consequences and [00:13:00] those consequences involve your money and your assets.

And for sure in Texas and in other states, the state has a business of not letting, like land sit idle. You know, our states want us to develop and move land, so they've gotta make sure that land gets handled. And that's like if you get to the root of what's actually happening up there, it helps. Make sense of it and don't expect it to be what it isn't.

Don't expect, um, the banana to be an F-150. That's not the job of the banana is not to be an F-150 pickup. Now the other thing is the court system is designed to be as efficient as possible so that it can dispose of as many issues as possible. It is not efficient to prove that someone is a narcissist.

It is hard and it is. Nuanced and you have to be dealing with people who understand why this matters. But what I'd say is, and so many people like that's the thing, they go into their lawyers and like, I gotta tell you every bad thing you ever did, okay. [00:14:00] It's not that I don't care as a human being and like as your friend, as a class of wine, and it's not that I don't even care in my job as a lawyer, but you're gonna be paying me a decent bit of money per hour to tell me this.

And I'm gonna say, okay, like in Texas is where I, I live, so I can speak to that law. Being a narcissist does not. Make him have to pay you more money. I mean, there might be some level of abuse that could get a disproportionate share of the estate, more money like there. But usually courts, remember you're talking about he held my hand to get me outta the car and my knees hurt the case before you was like, he took a baseball bat to my kids' niece.

Okay. And they're like. And they're a human and they have heuristics and all day long they're hearing this stuff and maybe they got in a fight with their spouse this morning and maybe they're hungry for lunch and whatever else is going on. So probably the really bad news that can also be good news if you'll let it, is that the narcissistic things that your spouse does may [00:15:00] never see the light of day.

And the good news about that is if you know it. You can just not spend all your time and energy and start focusing that energy instead of proving what a bad person this is, start building forward to your next chapter where you don't give two craps, what kind of person they're, whatever. Now when you have kids, obviously that complicates things.

If it's just a divorce, whether or not they're the worst narcissist and they do all these things, it's probably just not all that relevant. Uh, if I, if you were doing that with me and the knee thing, and No objection, your honor. Relevance. Uh, Dr. Um, carrie's knees to whether or not they should split the cost.

Yeah. It's of the house. 

Dr. Kerry: I know it. I, I filed my own in another state and I handled it myself and, uh, yeah. I stuck to, just to the practical stuff. Yeah. I remember he even flew in and said to me, I, well, I want more. And I said, we have nothing. We weren't living in the United States. We have nothing in the United States.

There's no accounts, there's no property. Um, you and I have nothing shared here. So what is it you're looking to split? Because there is nothing to split. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yep. 

Dr. Kerry: I said, you just need to sign the [00:16:00] papers. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And he signed the paper. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Good. Well, you know, it's more complicated, obviously, when there's kids and I can hear people screaming at me, but it's different because there's kids.

Okay. The other thing, the court, remember what it's trying to do, disposing of land and all that. Their job, like really probably most judges would see in family law, their number one responsibility is to protect the best interest of the kids in front of them. And what you've gotta show is that there is some nexus, some connection between the activity and the children that's like harming them.

So him being a punk to you, Dr. Kerry, the judge might say, well that's a called a real good reason to get divorced. It comes up with financial. Stupidity all the time. Well, he was gambling, he was spending money on hookers. He was whatever. Okay. Yeah. Those are called real good reasons to get divorced. Well, he's the one who took out all this credit card.

Yep. Good reason to get divorced. Not a reason to like lose custody or whatever. 'cause does the abuse [00:17:00] apply to the children now? A good lawyer if you've got a bunch of money to spend on a legal case and that's how you wanna spend a few years of your life could show. That the actions and behaviors that he's doing to you, he could do to the the kids.

And there's this history, you know, that stuff's just hard. To prove y'all 

Dr. Kerry: the part that's so wild. And I, I do understand this. So you are preaching to the choir.

Hannah Hembree Bell: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: But the hard part to under, because I, I worked with children and I was sometimes a, an expert test witness for, in some custody cases. The, the tough part though is that there is a connection.

People aren't. Abusive to one person and not abusive to others, particularly in the home, 

Hannah Hembree Bell: right? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Maybe in the public. He's nice to the neighbors or she's wonderful to PTA, but it doesn't mean that makes her a good mom at home or him a fantastic father at home. And often these individuals who are fighting for custody is really about hurting their partner.

Or wanting to not have to pay child support. They're looking for, to avoid money, losing money. And, and the parties know that. And that's what's [00:18:00] really tough about this is both back to, as you said it in the start, we're not gonna get justice. But the gameplay that occurred in these relationships continue almost in a worse way outside at and post separation abuse, that there's a continuation of further abuse.

And then they use the court system as a way to do that. Mm-hmm. And what's, here's the other part that I get very disturbed about. Abusive individuals are in control and they already have a narrative created, and they in their minds have created a pretty solid way in which of framing it that makes them look like it's true.

The victims come in dysregulated. Their narrative is what's happened. They're just trying to get people to listen, but they're also, their memory is not working the same because they're the one with the trauma. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And so they don't present well, they present anxious, chaotic, dysregulated, dramatic, like they're wasting time.

And I understand that. 'cause I do, I, I work with them all the time. I see this presentation. The problem is that. They don't present well legally. Yeah. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And then [00:19:00] that often goes in a direction because they don't, first of all, they're not approaching this in the same way that the abusive person is. Yeah.

It's not a game to them. This is to them, their children, their life, their heart, and they just feel like it's another way in which they get in into these situations and they don't get good representation because nobody likes them. Which brings me into another question that I don't wanna forget, but, so don't let me forget that.

I would love to talk about, there's a bias of who has it better in court. Men claim that women now have it in better in court. Women claim men still have it better in court. I think victims don't have it well in court. I think victims lose regardless of the sex. Yeah. But anyways, that, that's, that's my issue is that there is a connection.

I think it's really wild how the courts split. Parents are different with their children than they are with their partners. No, they're not. It's just, it's no, I, I not a dysfunctional person is dysfunctional. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Well, and here's what it's like. I always like to get to the root of things. So a legal underpinning what's happening is, and, and it's, it's not excuses.

It just helps me if I [00:20:00] understand. So when you're talking about a parent's relationship with their child, you are talking about a constitutional right. And when we mess with constitutional rights, we have stricter levels of sort of scrutiny. So for them to deny a parent the ability to parent, they're denying someone of a constitutional right.

So the standard is just higher. It's just makes sense. Just tougher. Then you two are gonna get divorced. You're right. Y'all should stay away from each other. Thank you. Bye-bye. Right. But when it comes to kids, that person. Shitty as they may be, has a constitutional right to be a parent. Unless there's in the con something called a fit parent presumption.

And this is played out in different states in different ways. Like constitutional law is like big picture. Some of it has been in the Supreme Court, like with different kinds of cases over the years. All right. And if you understand that. If you kind of know going in the likelihood, at least in Texas and different states are different, California's different, Oregon's different, like the [00:21:00] way it's gonna work Florida everywhere.

But if you go in understanding the likelihood of a court cutting off a parent's constitutional right to be a parent to their child is pretty small. You're gonna have to show some pretty big stuff and then you're gonna have to show that that stuff's likely to repeat. And then you're gonna have to show after they've had 1 million chances they won't behave.

More than likely. Just know that upfront. I think that women in these situations, and I'm saying women, I mean, I, I just don't know that many men are victims of it. That who, who haven't talked to me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I maybe they're just less likely to talk about it. 

Dr. Kerry: I, I do know of men. I mean, I know I can, right off the top of my head think it's several.

So I do know that it happens, but it's, you're right, it's more common. Women are more likely to talk about it. I don't know that that means there's more likely to happen to women. I'm just, I, I have more contact with more women. So yeah, 

Hannah Hembree Bell: same. That's So any guys's listening? Yeah. Like I'm talking about y'all too.

I just don't have as much personal experience, but what I would tell them is accept what is resistance is the pain. [00:22:00] Mm-hmm. This is what it is. You are right. Mom person being abused. You are not playing the game. They're playing a game. They're setting up traps. They're setting up narratives. Here's the thing, you are involved in a game too, whether you like it or not.

You are involved in a game, you are involved in a chess match. Even if you don't wanna think about it that way, that is convenient for you not to and to say, oh, all I care about is loving my kids. Whatever. You do not have the pleasure of just saying, all I care about is my kids, and then doing crazy shit, and being all over the place and being chaotic and not taking care of yourself, and not getting healed, and not getting regulated, and not finding your own inner calm look, it's the best and worst news that could possibly exist in the world.

Our lives are 100% our own personal responsibility. Those of us who've been in these abusive situations. Look it, I talked about my divorce very differently in the beginning than I do now. [00:23:00]Ultimately, I stayed in that marriage. Ultimately, I co-created that reality. Okay? And so for me it's like, so what are we gonna do about it?

Okay, so you're getting divorced from this narcissist person and they set up all these games and blah, blah, and they always make it about the kids, and they're willing to harm the kids to get to me and blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. Stipulated, your Honor. Stipulated. Agreed. Agreed. Okay. So now what? You don't have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines and sort of being like, I'm only in it for the kids.

I'm not playing the game. You are playing the game. You're just losing. At it. And so there's techniques and strategies that you can do that are not playing the game in the sense of you're not trying to be manipulative. It's really just a, a steady strategy to withstand the pressure. But it calls for gumption, it calls for strength, it calls for wisdom and maturity.

And you've probably been in a situation for a long time where those are not necessarily characteristics you fully. [00:24:00] Developed and owned right now because you're just been trying to survive for a long time and you finally got the strength to leave and you're at the end of Euro for anything. Like me, when I was getting divorced, it took everything I had to make the divorce decision.

Like to get there. I thought I was at the finish line and I was just getting started, and here's the thing. I was in a game, even though I didn't know it and I lost my kids, did not live with me primarily at first when I got divorced. And I settled. I made a deal because I knew that I'd be beat at court because if you looked at my life under a microscope and you listened to what he said about me and the spin and all of this, then you would've been like, sorry.

It sounds like, you know, being a lawyer is your priority and you don't really care about your kids that much. Like he says, well, I paid hard. I continue to pay my children, continue to pay the price for the fact that I was like. Ooh, booga. Booga. Like, what? You want to have the kids and you wanna make it so that I never even existed to them [00:25:00] or whatever.

Like, I sort of was like, oh no. Like, I don't know. Dams ly about the whole thing a little bit and not prepared, did not have a strategy or anything. So like, I'm only saying this is like, do as I say, not as I did. When I came back into custody modification, um, and cha flipped custody, it was very different. I was prepared, I had a strategy.

I'd done the healing. I had some different support. I had access to more resources. I had my gumption, I had my shit together. The first time I didn't. And I think the issue is a lot of women stick in that not having their shit together, pointing the finger in. A lot of blame. And the problem is you're just feeding into that narrative.

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It's hard because what happens in these relationships is it's psychologically I identity shattering. And, and the longer that you're in a, a trauma bond, the longer that you're, and you're essentially being brainwashed. I mean, they've actually shown in psychology that it, there's a brainwashing, it's a cult of two.

The longer that you're in it, the more that the learned helplessness is growing and the more that you're [00:26:00] learned to submit. And also there's. There's strong penalties and here's so here's my pushback. It's not that I'm saying you're not right. I know that you're correct. That you are in it, whether you wanna be in it or not, and they're going to win.

If you don't learn how to start to step into that narrative and see it what it is. This is not the place to get justice. This is not the place to deal with your anger. Because that's not what's gonna happen here. It's not like she, it's truth. She's weighing the truth and you're gonna finally walk out and say, finally my truth is verified.

No, you're not gonna get that. But what this is, is, is simply a separation of property and a decision around what's best for the kids' care. But what you're asking people who've been victimized to do is something extraordinarily hard on the heels of coming out of abuse. I think that's what we don't remember.

These are still highly traumatized people that back in the day when I first started practicing in the 1980s, a lot of them would've been hospitalized. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah, of course. 

Dr. Kerry: I don't think we realized that, that today what we've, essentially, we've stripped the mental health care to such a, a pitiful. Pittance of [00:27:00] what it used to be is that we went from the maximum level of care for someone experienced trauma to basically no support at all, to where a lot of them are paying out of pocket for coaches because that's all they can afford.

And without asking them move into another combative realm where they've already been beaten up so many times to learn that conflict equal. Retaliation and vengeance and grudge holding, and then there's situations where this person can say over and over, he's a threat. He's a threat. He's a threat. And then it comes to fruition.

I'm thinking of the case in California where the case, the supervisor and all the kids were shot because nobody listened. Mm-hmm. The fact that this person kept saying He's a threat, he's a threat. Hmm. Yes, you're right. This is the way it works. Unfortunately, this is the way it works, but it's also really broken and that's the part that I feel concerned about.

So here's what I think that could help that. Maybe you could help. The people that I know that I'm we're talking to today with this, how can they come in and utilize your strength, their [00:28:00] attorney's strength better? 'cause I think that's the way to work this is, I wouldn't say to a victim, get over the trauma.

You need to go in there and be better of advocate, but hire the right person to be the right advocate that can say, listen, I have. And I know this happens, I see the 40 pages of documentation of all the ways this person's abusing you, which is a lot to reference. You know, can you organize them in the maybe 10 categories of, of violations, and then I can then go in and go to bat for you to say, yes, this is a person who pushes boundaries and doesn't accept anything that we're saying.

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: So how can they work better with an attorney? 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah, and I mean, you know, just to say one thing too, I have so much compassion. For people who were in that spot. I'm not trying to say it's easy. There's no judgment here. Like I was there and I didn't do it right. My kids, I didn't, they didn't come with me.

I paid child support. So I'm your ghost of Christmas future to warn you. Mm-hmm. Against the mistakes that I made. But we are moms, we are women. We can do hard things [00:29:00] and. If you're not in a place to be able to do that, I mean, what I would tell people like upfront is the prep work, prep is everything.

Measure twice, cut once. Right? It's starting before you foul. He listening to Dr. Carey, you, you've never lived in a time that's information is more readily available to you to change your life, to change your mindset, to get the help. To get the support. And I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying that what I'm asking you to do isn't a monumental feat and.

If you wanna walk out that door with your kids, you're gonna have to find a way to climb Mount Everest, and you can do, I know that you can do it. You can listen to Dr. Carey. You can get in there and get help and support when working with your lawyer. Look, I think in keeping in in everything and dealing in a narcissist situation, Biff, keep your com communication brief, informative, friendly, firm.

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, 

Hannah Hembree Bell: brief, informative. Friendly and firm. 

Dr. Kerry: I wish you'd made that civil, but I know it doesn't fit [00:30:00] the BF very well. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah, 

Dr. Kerry: because friendly to me. You're not, we're not friends. I 

Hannah Hembree Bell: usually say factual. Oh, I looked it up to make sure, 'cause I, I could, I always get it kind of confused. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It's friendly, but I think it should be.

I know it breaks the acronym, but I would love like civil constable Civil, yeah, exactly. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: We can re, we can, we can patent Dr. Care another way of doing it. Um, but I think with your lawyer, it's very similar and I'm gonna caution you against expecting your lawyer to act as a coach or a therapist. Their job is to take evidence and put together a case and guide you through the process on the legal.

They can't be all things to all people. We weren't trained like Dr. Carey right now, finding a lawyer who can be sensitive to what's going on and who's worked in cases like that. Would be the best thing to do, but keep the main thing, the main thing is what I always say. Okay. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if, you know, there's a, there's an AI that's being developed right now, specifically for narcissistic abuse.

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah. [00:31:00] I've seen, I don't remember what it's called. I've seen 

Dr. Kerry: Amy says. Amy says, 

Speaker: yep. 

Dr. Kerry: So I got to talk to one of the people instrumental in, Amy says, and she says, it won't be long, and you could submit your 40 page document and it will create a. One page case of this is the violations 

Hannah Hembree Bell: good. 

Dr. Kerry: It will synthesize it down to, because often I wouldn't know what to say.

I don't know how to define, you know? Okay. So I ask him to show up on Sundays at four. He shows up Sundays at six. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Consistently, and then blames me for not having the kids ready after we gave up two hours ago. So, but it will be able to put it into, to legal speak. That makes sense. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right.

Streamlining it, keeping it focused on the main things, and also being realistic of what's your budget? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, 

Hannah Hembree Bell: hiring lawyers cost money, proving a whole bunch of narcissist stuff is gonna cost a fortune. It's gonna take experts, you know, they get a, a lawyer can do it with some texts and things. If you're really going down that path, they're gonna need a Dr.

Carey to come testify about what makes a narcissist. [00:32:00] And here's these things. And have you reviewed the file and maybe psychological evaluations and assessments. And y'all, I'm talking tens of thousands of dollars, if not a hundred thousand, and I'm assuming everybody listening to this podcast does not have a hundred thousand dollars to pay lawyers.

Um, and AI is helping change that and helping flatten the delivery of legal costs. And like I'm all about all of that. But for right where you find us in this exact moment, keeping a focus on the main thing within the context of what you can kind of afford. And I mean in terms of dollars, but I also mean in terms of your emotions and your resources, and finding a lawyer who will tell you what you need to hear and not what you wanna hear.

Finding someone that you tell 'em upfront. I want you to be honest with me. I don't want you to necessarily feed into a narrative just to sort of make me happy. I want you to be straight with me about whether the evidence I have or we collect will support the case that you need to make. And if not, shoot straight with me so we can, we can cut it out and not spend, you know, I've seen people do this.

They'll spend [00:33:00] $50,000 trying to prove these tiny little baby points and like, look, get a lawyer. He'll say to you, we are not doing that. Yeah, no. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: It will harm you. So I think that using the Biff method with everybody, including your lawyers, is a good idea. Bulking the information, like when you have questions and meetings always come in prepared.

Maybe even making a to this is just generally working with the lawyer, right? Have an agenda of the things you wanna discuss. Do some work yourself if you can. So like if I was gonna go to a lawyer and I wanted to talk about. You know, the strategy for proving at a temporary hearing that this person is a narcissist and it will harm my children, and therefore he should have to go to some kind of mandated counseling.

Well, I would probably create an agenda and be like, here's a section of like potential evidence, and here is a full, like a click to a Google drive that has perhaps, you know, seven pieces, something less than 20 pieces of evidence that I think demonstrate the case. Help them help you. And people wanna be like, well, you're not [00:34:00] doing it well, okay, your lawyer has meetings all day, all the time, and you've sent them 1000 documents, and some of which are like, he's arguing with you about, you have this soccer cleats.

Really? You're like, see, well, I mean that's probably not coming up into your two hour hearing Who had the soccer cleats on that day? I mean, I'm not saying it can't, but like help them. Help you, help yourself save costs and be realistic. And it's frustrating and it's not fair. And you will say things like he or she gets away with everything they never have to pay.

And like my best piece of advice and the silver lining in all of this is if you develop things like using Biff, gray Rock Method, um, those sorts of tactics over time, it can make a huge difference in yours, in your kids' lives. I know because those are the things that I've done for now 10 [00:35:00] years. And when you're in the thick of it, when you're in the throes of it, when it's just beginning, it feels like it will never end.

It will never be over. And it does get better, and you can get better at it. You can get really strong muscles and skills, and it feels good because every time they do something and you react, you've given your power away to that person. Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Versus, it's not to say it doesn't get me annoyed and like, wanna murder for a second, but more often than not, it doesn't like, Okie dokie.

How do I need to solve this problem and work around this situation like I'm water and there's, I've met a stone in the stream. 

Dr. Kerry: I appreciate that. Thank you so much. This is a lot of really, really useful information. How can people find out more about you if they'd like to listen to your podcast or anything else that you're doing, find out about the community that you've got going, where should they go to learn about those things?

Hannah Hembree Bell: Yeah. It's hard to swing a stick on the internet and not bump into me somewhere. So like, [00:36:00] um, the podcast I just launched is not saving it for later. You can go to not saving it for later.com to make sure you get notifications when it launches, and it's on all the podcasts. Apple, Spotify, da da, dah. Um, if they'd like to join the circle and get access to our free divorce prep course, uh, to help prepare for divorce without losing their kids' money and sanity called My Confident Divorce, you can just go to my confident divorce.com and it's free for members in the circle.

My name Hannah Hembry Bell is my handle on all the socials and you can follow me there. And I post real talk, real advice for people who are in the middle of this and I'd love to connect and keep the conversation going. 

Dr. Kerry: That would be awesome. And let's jump over to the podcast extra and talk about it.

Who is there, court biased and in what direction? Against men or against women? Let Okay. See 

Hannah Hembree Bell: you there. 

Dr. Kerry: All right. Thank you so much for today. It was really a pleasure having you on, Hannah. Appreciate it. 

Hannah Hembree Bell: Thank you. 

Dr. Kerry: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over and you're wondering yourself, was it really that [00:37:00] bad?

Or maybe I'm just being dramatic. So you start to draft that, I'm sorry, text again, because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable. And you know this loop because you've been there before. But I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist and for 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.

Here's the truth. Recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a private, always available coaching app built from my work and my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered inside it.

You'll get five minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive check-ins that meet you exactly where you are, whether you're feeling strong, shattered or numb [00:38:00] boundary scripts that help you. Say no without over explaining grounding tools that work fast when you're activated and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even on days when it feels like you're not.

There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment, just practical support right when you need it. Reclaim you real hope in real time, right in your pocket. And it's a coaching support, not therapy or emergency care. Learn more@studio.com slash Dr. Carey. So start your healing today and reclaim you.