Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Do you catch yourself second-guessing, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or trying to rebuild after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join retired psychologist Dr. Kerry McAvoy as she exposes the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. You’ll learn how destructive personalities operate, the manipulative tactics they use, and the stages of abuse—plus the practical steps to heal and reclaim your life.
If you’re ready to break free, rebuild your self-worth, and find lasting emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Why Covert Narcissists Always Make You Feel Guilty (Even When You've Done Nothing Wrong)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Covert narcissism (NPD) is the hardest form of narcissistic abuse to identify — and the most damaging.
Have you ever walked away from a conversation feeling like you did something wrong — even though you can't quite explain what?
In this episode, Dr. Kerry McAvoy sits down with Dr. Anthony Mazzella (The Narcissism Decoder) to break down exactly how covert narcissists use guilt and victimhood to keep you trapped.
PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT
Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
🔹 Think you might already be in one of these relationships? Dr. Mazzella and Dr. Kerry walk you through the internal warning signs — including the FOG of Fear, Obligation, and Guilt.
DR. ANTHONY MAZZELLA is a psychotherapist & psychoanalyst, educator, and podcaster who conducts research and lectures across the country. While his focus with his patients is psychodynamic in nature, his main goals are to build a trusting relationship and help each patient reduce the frequency and intensity of their emotional painful thoughts and suffering. He helps his patients overcome both acute and long-standing problems that may be more imbedded in their personality.
FOLLOW DR. MAZZELLA
Submit your question to be answered on air here!
Resources
- ReclaimYou: Dr. Kerry's AI-powered coaching app
- The Complete Recovery Collection: Narcissistic abuse resources
- First Steps to Leaving: Online self-paced digital course
- Toxic-Free Relationship Club: Live coaching & community support
Follow Dr. Kerry!
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism.
As an Amazon affiliate, commission is earned from qualifying purchases.
This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis, please call 911 or your local emergency number.
Why Covert Narcissists Always Make You Feel Guilty (Even When You've Done Nothing Wrong)
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: [00:00:00] They really walk around with a profound feeling of being guilty, of doing something wrong, of being bad, and it transitions to all aspects of their life because this is what gets internalized.
Dr. Kerry: They're the biggest victim in the room. Mm-hmm. Or that tend to be the biggest martyr in the room.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Guilt tripping is really, really big.
So they feel misunderstood. They constantly feel mistreated. The more malignant type. Sometimes they really are being malicious. Sometimes they really are just attacking you because that is the way through power domination. Bullying, intimidation. That is actually the way they restore their sense of self-esteem.
Now, those are their narcissistic supplies.
Dr. Kerry: Most of this is just unconsciously being driven by whatever is top of mind or greatest need. Would you agree with that?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Oh yeah. They don't always have malicious intent. Like, in other words, it's not conscious. They're [00:01:00] just trying to restore their sense of self, their self-esteem.
They're just, you know, trying to survive. Covert Narciss is something you and I are going to talk about. They still have that grandiosity, you know, they still have the grandiose sense of self. That's a structure that holds them together, but the way they go about getting those supplies is covert. It's disguised, it's hidden.
Dr. Kerry: What motivates the covert narcissist in a relationship? Are they aware of what they're doing to you when they're being manipulative? To answer these questions, Dr. Anthony Mazzella joins me on today's interview to do a deep dive into this personality type. Well, Dr. Ella, thank you so much for joining me.
Today, we're going to talk about covert narcissism. Why don't you tell me a little bit about, first of all, how you got interested in this whole realm of personality disorders, and then specifically maybe if you have a unique interest in covert narcissism. [00:02:00]
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Sure. Well, first, thank you so much for having me and giving me this opportunity to share my own thoughts on what is a really complicated topic.
So in terms of getting started, many, many years ago when I first entered the field, I worked in a hemodialysis unit. That's where people go when they have kidney failure. So the protocol's quite demanding three times a week for about four hours. And in short, there was, um, you know, a number of patients who were skipping or shortening their dialysis sessions, which leads to an increased risk of morbidity and mortality.
So the staff are always trying to get them to be more compliant. So eventually what I did is I just designed an intervention. I used this as my, um, dissertation for my doctorate degree. And we had one group who got an intervention, which was me basically, you know, with a psychodynamic approach. And the other one who got usual social work care.
And in short, what we found was a 200% [00:03:00] increase in adherence or what, you know. Um, so basically they came to treatment more frequently or they skipped less. And one of the things I discovered in sitting with these patients is that many of them were in denial about the fact that they needed. Um, you know, the life sustaining treatment.
So that sort of led me deeper into denial. Mm. And the things that they would do instead, like go off to Atlantic City. So they chose to have fun, you know, rather than get, get the, um, dialysis treatment. So without even realizing it, at this point, what I was studying was a personality disorder. Someone who could not live in reality.
Someone who was constantly labeled as non-compliant by all the staff. You know, that they were doing something wrong or doing something bad, but they didn't understand what, what was going on. You know, in their mind they have, they're living in a different reality. They're just out there having fun. It's much more fun and pleasant, right, to be in Atlantic City than it [00:04:00] is.
To be, you know, sitting in a dialysis unit getting yelled at by the staff. Mm-hmm. So that's what initially started my entry into personality disorders, narcissism, and borderline in particular. And then from there, obviously it deepened in my private practice and eventually turned into a podcast that I actually host now specifically on narcissism.
Dr. Kerry: So we know that there are subtypes, even though we categorize them all the same in the DSM five. Help me understand what you see as the subtypes or the subsets.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This is such an important piece of it because if I could just step back and just narcissism is so complicated. Mm-hmm. I'll just maybe give one definition of narcissism.
I know there are many different ways to look at it. So in general, it's a way of relating to oneself and others that's organized around maintaining a fragile sense of self-worth. So in other words, one of the definitions has to do with protecting your self-esteem. So [00:05:00] when one has an unstable sense of self or self-worth, naturally.
They become dependent on others to, um, you know, mirror back, let's say their importance, their competence, how special they are. So much of what we think about in terms of narcissism is that they have this need for what we could call narcissistic supplies, you know, getting that admiration and tension, that good special feeling.
Externally. So they're always looking for the narcissistic supplies. And one way to think about it is how do they go about getting it? And this leads right into your question. In psychoanalytic language, we call it the mode of narcissistic repair.
Dr. Kerry: Mm.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: So the way they repair their self-esteem varies. So you, to your point, you're right, they're not like different diagnosis, but there are different presentations or different clusters of narcissism and they go about it.
Some like the more grandiose [00:06:00] type goes through it by what? Feeling special being the center of attention, always showing off, right? So they get it more overtly. Now the covert narcissist, something you and I are going to talk about, they still have that grandiosity. You know, they still have the grandiose sense of self.
That's a structure that holds them together. But the way they go about getting those supplies is, you know, covert. It's disguised, it's hidden. So you may see it more in what, um. They could be quite critical of other people. They could be the greatest sufferers, you know? Mm-hmm. It's just more self pity, you know?
Guilt tripping is really, really big. So they feel misunderstood. They constantly feel mistreated. I, I could keep going because all these things are subtle and they don't seem on the surface, like how do, what does that have to do with getting narcissistic supplies? Or, or helping their [00:07:00] grandiosity, but in all of these different ways, which we could get into as we, you know, as we talk, it is definitely a way to make themselves feel better about their sense of self.
Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It's really interesting that you bring that up because it's so much conversation lately about what is the sort of the core or root defining structure of a narcissism, and some say that it's shame-based. Others will say, well, no, it's kind of a biosocial problem and is inherent psychological weaknesses.
I sort of like, you see it similarly in that I view it like foundational. If you think about a house built on a foundation mm-hmm. If it's a faulty foundation, whatever you put on top of it is not gonna stand well and that what they're really doing. Essentially using relationships as scaffolding to then hold up.
The insecurities within themselves, but here's what I think confuses people, and I'd love to know what you think.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry: We think when we hear whether it's shame or insecurity or these deficits, that somehow they're coming at it from a standpoint of distress and insecurity. I [00:08:00] don't think they're self-aware enough to know that, although from the outside we can see that.
What do you think?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Well. That's, again, it's such a good question because we have to think about the cluster, the type of narcissism, to your point, just a moment ago, right? Because some of them, like the more grandiose type, when the grandiosity is punctured, which could be something as simple and subtle as someone just disagreeing with them, you know, having a different opinion.
Sometimes they collapse, you know, and then you see the more vulnerable side because the grandiose structure is both. It has both the grandiose piece, the overt piece, and. The more vulnerable piece. They're both always there, so it's just one patches over the other. Or we could say they oscillate. So sometimes with the more grandiose type, when something doesn't go their way or there's a setback, then all of a sudden they become quite needy or desperate or clingy.
Sometimes they retreat to the bedroom sometimes, you know, like there's so many different ways this can play out. But [00:09:00] I say sometimes because other times they can become quite dismissive and make it seem like it's no big deal. Right? Other times they can become quite critical and then judge and put other people down, and that's a good way to restore.
Not a good way, but that's the way they could restore their fragile sense of self. So it really depends again on the type or cluster of narcissism.
Dr. Kerry: Yeah, I, I see what you're saying and it, that makes a lot of sense and, but I think what people get wrong is they don't realize this is really driven profoundly by an unconscious process.
It's all happening in the background. This is not something that most, there are people I wanted then add a caveat. There are people who are intentionally deriving their actions. To me, that's the more of the psychopathic psychopathy end of things. But most of this is just unconsciously being driven by whatever is top of mind or greatest need.
Would you agree with that?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Oh yeah. I mean, I recently recorded a podcast on this. I was chatting with somebody and it was, um. What I was saying is that they don't always have [00:10:00] malicious intent. Like in other words, it's not conscious. They're just trying to restore their sense of self, their self-esteem.
They're just, you know, trying to survive. But on the other hand, with the more malignant type, that's another cluster, right? Or type of narcissistic presentation. Sometimes they really are being malicious, right? Sometimes they really are just attacking you because that is the way through power domination.
Bullying, intimidation. That is actually the way they restore their sense of self-esteem. Those are their narcissistic supplies. So again, it depends on the cluster. But yes, I absolutely agree with you and it's something I'm so glad to hear somebody say that. It's not always intentional. It's not even always conscious.
Remember, they're just trying to survive. That's their primary goal.
Dr. Kerry: Right, right.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah.
Dr. Kerry: Which though I think the reason so many of his error in the other other direction is that because the empathic partner who, who's who they usually pick [00:11:00] because who's gonna support them really nicely? Mm-hmm. Is someone highly empathic.
Feels bad. Then when they realize it, it's somebody who's just trying to quote unquote survive. Then they think, well, then it's harsh for me to have better boundaries. And I'm thinking, no, because it's not okay for someone to have a parasitic relationship with you regardless of the reasons.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes. Yeah, and then just, I'm just imagining someone that I'm sitting with in my office who says something like that.
Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Then the deep work has to become, what's it feel like? What's it like for you? What do you imagine it would be like to have, right these boundaries, you know, however we define boundaries, but to create some separation between you and this other person? I think that's overall what you probably mean by boundaries.
Dr. Kerry: Yes, exactly. Exactly
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: right. And that's one of the, look, that's a whole nother way to define narcissism. There's a lack of self other differentiation. So what they're constantly looking for is more what went missing earlier on, which is what that merge type of [00:12:00] experience. And there are many different theories on this.
Dating all the way back to Freud. He called it actually primary narcissism before we were even technically writing about narcissism or thinking about it like we do today. But many theorists after that called it different things. You know, like Margaret Mahler, she has, she. The symbiotic phase of development, right?
There's this blissful reunion co hut, another psychoanalyst calls them self objects, but these are all undifferentiated. In other words, not separate relationships like the, the goal is that blissful union between two people, where you could feel magically alive and together with somebody.
Dr. Kerry: Right. And when someone from who hears this and doesn't understand what we're talking about psychologically, they end up thinking it's actually a blissful union.
No, that's idealization that that blissful union isn't possible.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah, it's um, it's kind of funny, you know, because again, just thinking from the mind of a psychoanalyst, [00:13:00] in order to really treat this, I'm getting ahead of ourselves, but I'll just do a very quick hello. Right. You have to deeply enter their subjective experience, so in their subjective experience.
It really is blissful and yes, your point, you are right, but you're thinking like a rational person right now. Right,
Dr. Kerry: right, right, right. Yeah, exactly. So let's go into the covert narcissism. How is the structure, I mean, you kind of defined the grandiose narcissist. Mm-hmm. How is the covert structure different?
And you mentioned, I sort of see it fall into two camps. They're either. Really lean into the, the victim. They're the, the biggest victim in the room. Mm-hmm. Or that tend to be the biggest martyr in the room.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes, yes.
Dr. Kerry: But let's, let's talk about how they sort of see themselves differently than maybe the typical narcissist does.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Okay. So to do this, do you mind, I love examples by the way. Do you mind if I just give an example for you? Oh, go for it.
Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: And then you could tell me if this sort of captures, rather than just defining it so. A [00:14:00] prototypical patient, like, you know, in order to protect the anonymity of my patients and my practice, I'll just say this is a prototypical scenario.
A patient tells me she got accepted into a prestigious graduate program and she's quite excited about this, and she spoke to her mother and almost immediately her mother says something like, you know, well, we need to talk about this. Right? And we need to think about how this is going to affect our relationship.
I just need to share my feelings with you. That's all right. So this is how it starts. I think you see it already.
Dr. Kerry: Oh, I do. Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Mm-hmm. So since this, this prototypical patient has been in treatment, and one thing that we've been working on quite a lot is. That she's a people pleaser, like she pleases people, and it's very important for her to please people because the image in her mind of how they look at her.
Now, this has to do with gaze, and I won't digress here, but this is part of early development and things that go off, things that go missing back again, to your [00:15:00] point from earlier, that gaze is so important because it releases all sorts of good, positive endorphins and you know, it's very stimulating. So she simply listens to her mother's concerns about her leaving town to, you know, to go off to graduate school.
Right. And all of what that's going to mean to her mother. Right. But as she listened, her mother became more emotional saying things like. She couldn't bear the thought of her daughter, you know, like moving away right after all that she's done for her. In other words, I've done so much and now you're just going to move away.
And then the language. And you know, since this, my patient, this daughter didn't respond by swooping in and putting her concerns at. What we saw with things slowly escalated, like words that are quite catastrophic, like, this is going to be the worst thing ever, or this is going to ruin everything. [00:16:00]So I, I wanna pause there because I'm, I'm trying to give you an example.
But you could, I think you're getting it already, just from the very beginning. Like, I just wanna talk about my feelings. So you could see it's so innocent, right? Initially. Like who doesn't want your mom to talk about her feelings with you? Right? But you could see how it quickly escalates when you're not there to be the whatever, again, whatever theory we subscribe to, but not to take care of her mother's feelings.
The mother is going to try more and more to position her daughter. To what? To help her reestablish her self-esteem, her self-worth, which is to be the good mother to always be there. The daughter's there. They're in that symbiotic relationship that I mentioned earlier. Right? And when that doesn't happen, and this is very common, so your listeners can fill us in with any example, the things tend to escalate and this is what we see.
That it's going to ruin everything, right? And it's the worst thing that [00:17:00] could happen. Now, emotions are getting heightened. And her goal, the mother's goal, not consciously, to your point, is to put her daughter into action rather than reflection. So this is no longer about a conversation, you see? And that's now what we need to start to think about.
But let me pause. I just want, 'cause I'm, I know I'm saying a lot here. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry: Time. Yeah. And thinking of so much. For example, the first thing that struck me was here the daughter is talking about a big change in life, a big transition, which she's coming from a point of view of herself. Yes. But the mother twitches it and then begins to occupy center stage.
Yes. Instead of reflecting on what this means. The daughter's experience, the fears, you know, even challenges. She then immediately goes, it's a very self-focused, very egocentric focus.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes.
Dr. Kerry: I think the other thing that I noticed is there's a lot of manipulation in that conversation about, you can tell there's an agenda that was going on, and the agenda is to shift focus from the daughter's needs [00:18:00] and direction and life to the mother's losses.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes.
Dr. Kerry: What else am I missing in there?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: No, wait. Well, let's just stay with what you said because again, okay. The manipulation is, could be seen as covert, right? Because if you confront the mother at this point, she's just going to say, I'm not doing anything. I'm just sharing with you how I feel. You know? Then I'm going to miss you.
Why are you so sensitive? You take everything so personally. So that's the covert nature, right? Right. We also mentioned the ego, right? See, that's the grandiosity again, that's the structure that holds every type, cluster of narcissism together. And you do hear that the grandiosity is what, that the mother's needs should actually take priority over the daughters.
You know, when you hear this in so many different ways, this is just one example. Another one just very quickly is a, a person who comes in very upset. Now this is the covert narcissist, and she says, I'm going on vacation. I need a ride to the airport. Could you believe that my [00:19:00] boyfriend is not taking me to the airport?
He refused to drop us off, you know, drop her and her friends off. And I said, well, what happened? Like, well, he's got, he has to go to work the next day, but she's so upset, you know, that she has this evening flight and he's not dropping everything. And her motto she tells me is. Family helps family. Like what kind of family is this fellow going to make?
But she does not see, see, it's so under the surface, the covert omnipotence or grandiosity that all of her needs should take priority. So when she starts pressuring her boyfriend now and making him feel guilty, right. Which is, you know this example with the mother too,
Dr. Kerry: right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: You know, it's all like in the service of.
But you are my boyfriend, you know, and family helps family. You're supposed to be there for me, and if you're not there for me, then you're doing something wrong. Right? So that's another thing. Yeah. So you asked me what you're missing is the implicit message. So now if [00:20:00] the daughter goes off to graduate school or the boyfriend doesn't come and pick her up, you know, like an Uber driver, basically like, like a part object.
Then they are doing something wrong. So there's another piece is the guilt that I mentioned earlier. Mm-hmm. Which is prominent with the covert narcissist. But it's so subtle because these people walk away. They really do. It's sad, you know, when I sit with them on both sides. But when I sit with the people who are exposed to this kind of treatment, they really walk around with a profound feeling of being guilty, of doing something wrong.
Of being bad, not just with the mother or the boyfriend. But in life, it transitions to all aspects of their life because this is what gets internalized. So that's, yeah, that's another piece. The other thing, I mean, I could keep going with just this little vignette, but this is also what we call an enactment, which means she pulls the daughter into playing a role for her.
Now we could say it's like the parentified, like the child is supposed to take care of the [00:21:00]mother's feelings, but nevertheless. It's like a dance, an unconscious dance that goes on between two people. So the daughter needs to step into this as well for her own reasons, because she does not wanna upset her mother and lose that special bond.
You know, that symbio symbiotic thing that I mentioned earlier.
Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 'cause that was where I was gonna ask you about that. Mm-hmm. Think for circling back, I see it as parasitic. You're defining it as, as symbiotic. Let's even pause for people who don't understand the differences between those two. Mm-hmm.
Because I think that's really important. And then I'd love to know why you think it's more symbiotic than parasitic. So do you mind explaining the difference between symbiotic and parasitic?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: You are going to have to kick it off. Dr. Kerry, what's parasitic? I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah, if you start with that, then I'll talk about symbiotic.
Dr. Kerry: Okay. Okay. Para parasitic is essentially is the. So if you think of, for example, this is a really gross example. Some animal gets infested with another. Like with worms, for example. Yes. I have a puppy, so I'm thinking of that. [00:22:00] 'cause I don't want my puppy to
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Okay.
Dr. Kerry: Have that problem. The, the, the worm or the entity that it let, let's say ticks, that's an easier one to think of.
The tick doesn't serve the puppy's health. There's no benefit to the puppy for having ticks. Yes. But the tick, however, though, survives off the wellbeing of the puppy. It's driving sustenance from the puppy at the puppy's expense. I see. So it's a one way direction in the relationship.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes. Okay. Huh. That's a good question.
So,
Dr. Kerry: because symbiotic to me is both benefit.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah. So that's what I was thinking because is this one way? Absolutely not. If we listen to like pop psychology, it would be seen as one way. Like the mother is just extracting, you know, that's what they say about the narcissist. The narcissist is always just extracting.
But if we buy into this, what we call again, the shared unconscious fantasy, it's a shared fantasy. So they are both. Benefiting from this, and that's why it works so [00:23:00] magically and wonderfully. Now, if we just stay with the surface level explanation, yes, it looks like the narcissist is just the one who extracts.
But for this daughter, because she herself has her, remember I said earlier? We were working already on her need to people please, but people pleasing, and I know this is very controversial and I'm sorry to say this, but that's a form of manipulation as well, because you're not putting your real authentic self in there.
You are playing a role. At that moment, but why do you play a role? Yeah, please go ahead. Jump
Dr. Kerry: in. Yeah. Can I argue with you for a moment on that? Because I see people pleasing as an extension of fawning. It's part of the fight flight, fawn or freeze system. So if this, let's go back for the sake of this example.
'cause I think it's a lovely example. The daughter's grown up in a system where there's a continuous lack of safety. Yes. And she's learned the only way to derive safety is to fawn. Which then as you move into adulthood, looks like people pleasing. So couldn't it be seen as just her efforts at survival?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Oh, there's no doubt.
Yeah, there's, [00:24:00] I'm, I'm with you. You're not pushing back.
Dr. Kerry: Okay.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Okay. There's no doubt, and I really appreciate that. But one doesn't exclude the other. You see what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do
Dr. Kerry: see what you mean.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: What the narcissist, we can make the same argument, you know, when a, when a narcissist is manipulative.
Right. Trying to get the narcissistic supplies. We could say the same thing you are describing, as I would call it in my field, like a defense mechanism.
Dr. Kerry: Right, right, right.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: And by the way, that's a whole nother way to define narcissism is that it's just a whole defensive structure that Exactly. And say the defensive s protect themselves.
Dr. Kerry: Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: So I'm actually in agreement with you. Right. I, I think you're right. And um, the whole goal Yes. Of this daughter is for her too. Psychic survival because she grew up. Again, missing out on something that she desperately needed to survive. So now she has to figure out the best way to get that. And for her, it's the people pleasing, so.
Dr. Kerry: Right, right. I think the part that bothers me the most, and we could also say this is true for the narcissistic as well. I mean, this is what's so problematic about it. It's like. It's [00:25:00] so complex and it's a wheel within a wheel, within a, you know what I'm saying? The daughter didn't have a choice as an infant to do anything but to people.
Please,
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: yes,
Dr. Kerry: let's play this out. She had a covert narcissistic mother and she fought. Then the mother would do a lot of, rejecting, a lot of, uh, mislabeling as her as bad defective, which is very damaging to an infant's experience. If she was to flee, then the mother may be abandoning the, you see what I'm saying?
Yeah. The best course was to Fawn, but as you said that, that makes sense though. Why you're seeing symbiotic, the daughter, I'm, I'm working my way outta this com conundrum. Is that okay? In order to survive, she figured out fawning worked, which is how then she, then she got her needs met.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes, yes,
Dr. Kerry: yes. There is where the symbiosis is.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah, and just so you know, just again, it's so subtle. This is the covert part. But the mother actually did do that. You see, maybe she didn't do it to this daughter because if this daughter Fs or pleases whatever word we wanna put in there, false self. There are many different ways we could describe this.[00:26:00]
I, I was saying the mother did do this, but if the daughter was always there playing this role for the mother, the mother would just talk about somebody else who didn't do this sort of thing. So let's just hypothetically say there was a sister. Then the sister becomes the bad one because if the sister doesn't play the role that the mother needs her to play, then it's like, oh, your sister doesn't get good grades, or your sister doesn't do this.
Or, look, your sister has a boyfriend. Like, oh, why does she have to get involved with these men? Or then she'll be very derogatory towards the man at the sister's dating and tried. You know, covertly to maybe put a little wrench or break it up, you know, so that the daughter can come back home again. But in other words, there's always message the subtle messages that are going on that if you don't play this role, and again, to your point, Dr.
Kerry, what choice does she have? Right? Right. Because now she sees. The way the mother responds when someone doesn't play this role. 'cause she listens closely to the mother's stories and she hears how she thinks and talks about other people who are not playing this, you [00:27:00] know, sort of filling that script for her.
Yeah. You had already pointed out 'cause you saw them immediately, some of the Yeah. Dynamics that were going on and you asked me what I missed, what, what you had missed or if there was anything else and I was filling in. Right,
Dr. Kerry: right.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Other pieces. And one of them I called. Not that I called it. It's known as the shared fantasy.
Right. But that both of them are playing a role in keeping this, um, what we call an enactment alive.
Dr. Kerry: That's right. In the enactment. Yes.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah.
Dr. Kerry: Yeah. So break that down. Do you think the person who's in this relationship with the covert narcissist realizes there is an enactment?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: No. No way. No. They think that if they don't play this role.
What harm they're going to do to their mother. Like even this like prototypical example, there are many sessions that are spent with her now contemplating whether she should really go off to graduate school. You know, even though she paused, she waited, she saw, and now this is what we call [00:28:00] an observing ego.
You know, she's seeing things more clearly how her mother escalated and these were all things we could talk about. And then we start to. Lord, what it was like for her not to immediately swoop in and please her mother. Despite all that, she's still like, so she has a good level of awareness, but still is drawn to this thing because there's so much more work that needs to go on, and that's what makes these things so complicated.
So the short answer to your question is initially, I would say initially. They are not aware that they're involved in this enactment. It's, it's at an unconscious level. It's not until you could step out of it and then see what's happening. Then you become aware. But that doesn't solve the problem. No way.
There's no way because any you, you know this 'cause I've listened to your show. Personality disorders are very difficult to change, right? They, but they do change, but it's a constant in and [00:29:00] out. So there's no like upward trajectory of progression. It's constantly in and out of these states where then she'll step back into it, but then she'll have a moment where she could.
Well, I can help her step out and there's a greater level of awareness. But anyway, that's a long answer to your question, but the answer is initially no. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry: So you were still talking about the, the victim, the person who's experiencing the relationship with the narcissist, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes.
Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. Because here's the other thing that I think that is so damaging about these relationships is, and you really described it beautifully, is the reconstruction of their identity.
Yes. So what that person is experiencing is themselves as, I don't, this is not in psychodynamic terms, but the self as the other perceives it.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry: It's really not the real self. I'm not even for sure if somebody growing up in that system has much of a real self. They have been so constructed by that, that disordered parent.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. You know, that's why typically, you know, you hear [00:30:00] narcissists don't change. Like you hear this so frequently, but I think what people don't realize. Is, it's a slow process of change because look what you just mentioned, you know, you are not just leaving this, let's call it abusive relationship, okay?
Yeah. You are not just leaving a relationship. You are leaving your identity behind. You are leaving, like what could be considered a cult. You are leaving an addiction. You are leaving so many things and all that not only takes a great deal of courage, but you have to begin a process of what didn't happen early in life, which is what separation and individuation, the main thing that went missing because you had a parent who could not allow you to take the steps that were necessary.
To begin to separate and feel a sense of confidence as you're separating to find your voice with authority. Right. And to be with somebody and at the same time be separate from them. So just the act of pausing and listening to somebody is actually being together and being [00:31:00] alone simultaneously.
Dr. Kerry: Mm.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: And that's why sometimes when I get guests on my own podcast and I talk about this and they're like.
What do you mean? We're supposed to sit there and listen to them? Like that's ridiculous. You mean we're supposed to just sit there and get beat up? And I'm not advocating that, you know, that's more of the malignant type of narcissism, maybe where they're coming at you with a whole different level of aggression and destructiveness.
But in this example with her just listening to her mother's fears and anxiety about her going off to college, yeah, that's a togetherness. And a separateness. So there are boundaries there too. If you don't get swept in, in terms of then just trying to please the mother,
Dr. Kerry: I think that's where the, the healing actually starts to happen.
Mm-hmm. Is in the separateness, in that moment, aware of the other person's pull or push on you, but also aware of your own self and needs at the same time?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yes.
Dr. Kerry: That, because that then you're not merging so much as you were before.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: That's right. Yep. Exactly.
Dr. Kerry: Actually [00:32:00] we've come to the, near the end of our, our interview you.
'cause I could tell you and I could go forever on this. Yeah. This is a math, very fascinating discussion and we didn't even get where we hoped to get to today. So what I'd like to do is jump over the podcast extra and let's talk about. I wanna back up. I wanna actually back up and on the podcast extra talk about how to recognize that you are in a relationship with a covert narcissist because they're so tricky to spot because they appear so empathic or at least sympathetic in the beginning.
So let's kind of break down. 'cause I heard it and you heard it, but I don't know if everybody else heard what we were hearing to for us to say, oh yeah, be careful here. This is a very dangerous situation. Yes. How can people find out more about you if they'd like to tune into your podcast or learn more about your work?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Yeah, just to keep it very simple, everything's on my website. It's dr mazzella.com. So the videos, the, you know what? Everything that I write, the podcast, everything is there.
Dr. Kerry: Alright. Thank you so much Dr. Zelo, this. This is a fascinating conversation and one of which I [00:33:00] would love to have you back and we could pursue this further.
This is really great.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: Well, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Kerry for having me. I really appreciate it and this was wonderful. Such insightful questions you have. So thank you again.
Dr. Kerry: Oh,
Dr. Anthony Mazzella: appreciate it.
Dr. Kerry: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over and you're wondering to yourself, was it really that bad?
Or maybe I'm just being dramatic. So you start to draft that, I'm sorry, text again, because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable. And you know this loop because you've been there before. But I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I am a retired psychologist, and for 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.
Here's the truth. Recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a [00:34:00] private, always available coaching app built from my work and my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered inside it.
You'll get five minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive. Check-ins that meet you exactly where you are. Whether you're feeling strong, shattered or numb boundary scripts that help you say no without overexplaining grounding tools that work fast when you're activated and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even on days when it feels like you're not.
There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment, just practical support right when you need it, reclaim you. Real hope in real time. Right in your pocket and it's a coaching support, not therapy or emergency care. Learn more@studio.com slash Dr. Carey. So start your healing today and reclaim [00:35:00] you.
