Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Keep Finding Yourself in the Same Toxic Relationships? How to Break the Pattern

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 4 • Episode 262

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Have you ever looked back at your relationships and realized they all feel disturbingly familiar?  

That's not a coincidence — it's your relationship blueprint at work. 

This week, therapist, bestselling author of Why Do I Keep Doing This?, and mental health YouTuber Kati Morton joins Dr. Kerry to break down why so many of us keep repeating toxic relationship patterns — and what it actually takes to rewrite them. Together, they unpack the attachment theory, childhood blueprints, people-pleasing dynamics, and trauma bonding that keep you stuck in cycles you can't explain.

PODCAST EXTRA EXCLUSIVE SEGMENT  

Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse 

🔹 Why do certain people expect you to manage their emotions for them — and never learn to do it themselves? In this members-only bonus, Kati and Dr. Kerry flip the dynamic and explore the other side of the pattern. 

KATI MORTON is a licensed marriage and family therapist, bestselling author, and one of YouTube's most trusted voices in mental health. Her newest book, Why Do I Keep Doing This, is her most personal yet — a candid look at her own healing journey and the relational patterns she's had to confront in her own life. She also hosts the weekly podcast Ask Kati Anything. 

FOLLOW KATI MORTON  

Submit your question to be answered on air here!

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D, a retired psychologist & author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. 

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This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

Keep Finding Yourself in the Same Toxic Relationships? How to Break the Pattern (with Kati Morton)

Kati Morton: [00:00:00] With narcissistic abuse. Keep a list of the wrongs, the ways they've wronged you, because they will try to tell you through gaslighting and other manipulation tactics that it didn't happen, that you're overreacting, that you're being too much or whatever. And we forget because they manipulate us so much and get us so confused, we forget all the ways that they've harmed us is not to say it's not really guilt 'cause that's what it feels like.

However, I believe, is that it. Misplaced responsibility. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Kati Morton: So what it means is not that you've done anything wrong, 'cause think of like guilt as like in a court of law, you're found guilty, boom, boom. You know? Yep, yep. You've done things wrong. There's evidence. And some people might say, well, I can find the evidence.

I didn't talk to the, no, no, no. Those are not facts. Those are feelings you believe that you should have. But it's more about when I grew up or some other time in my life, I believed that someone else's emotional response and someone else's. Life experience is my responsibility. 

Dr. Kerry: Why do I keep doing that?

And I know so many of us [00:01:00] wonder that 

Kati Morton: the biggest piece is all about the blueprint. Whoever was around us the most growing up helps us create the blueprint for relationships. And that can mean what does love look like? What does it feel like? What does an argument look like? How's conflict resolved?

Dr. Kerry: Have you ever noticed how we tend to pick the same type of relationship, tend to meet the same type of person and have this repetitive dysfunctional pattern? Well, to answer why we do this, Katie Borton joins me. She's a YouTuber podcaster in an author of a new book, or Why do I keep doing this? She's gonna get into talking about the familiarity of toxic relationship patterns and what we can do to break them.

Well, I'm so excited. Katie Morton has been somebody I've been following for a long time and have long time to admired. And so when you got ahold of me because you have a new book releasing, I was so thrilled to have this conversation with you. So Katie, tell us a little bit about who you are and about the book that you just published.

Kati Morton: I'm so excited [00:02:00] to be here. Thanks for having me. My new book, why do I keep doing this? Just came out, uh, last December and. It's my most personal book. I don't even think I really realized how much I needed to write it until I'm promoting it and talking about it. Um, it's less of a prescriptive book where it's like, Hey, do X, Y, and Z and you'll feel better.

And it's more, uh, me taking you along on my own healing journey. For better, for worse. There's a lot of stuff in the book where I'm like, Hey, I don't know either, man. I'm just trying to figure it out. I'm learning along with you and I think. The reason that I felt like this book needed to exist and why I decided to write it in the end.

Is that I found myself over and over again in my life asking that question, why do I keep doing this? Why do I find myself in the same relationships? Why do I find myself doing these same patterns that I don't like? Uh, for anybody who's ever watched my, uh, videos, they know that talk a lot about me struggling with people pleasing.

Mm-hmm. And how I'll say yes when I mean no. And how I puff or fish people, meaning like I stick my spines out 'cause I [00:03:00] feel a little too vulnerable and I don't like that. And so that's really where the book came from, why it exists. It's, it's kind of my life journey thus far. You know, I'm only 42. I, I know people could think that's old.

I think we're very young. Mm-hmm. We still have a lot of life to live. Um, but that's kind of what I've worked on in my own therapy and in my own life thus far. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It's interesting you call it puffer fish. I used to, my own word was I used to say I'm a prickly porcupine. 

Kati Morton: I love 

Dr. Kerry: that. I'm a prickly porcupine would just give me hug.

Me. I used to say to my late husband, just find a way to hug me through the quills. 

Kati Morton: Yes, exactly. Like come in soft. Maybe for a little bit. Maybe I'll let, I don't know it. To reach around it is to be a little sneaky. 

Dr. Kerry: I have to be a little careful there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I, the title, why do I keep.

Doing that. And I know so many of us wonder that, why we keep doing that, and particularly when it comes to toxic relationships. So what have you observed that's been some helpful insights for you about why you keep doing that or why you see others keep doing that? 

Kati Morton: The biggest piece, it's actually the first [00:04:00] chapter of the book is all about the blueprint.

Mm. And we can really get into this if you, you know as much as you want, but it's about essentially that our family, and I say family is a broad term because some of us are raised by our parents. Some have really active grandparents or aunts and uncles who ever was around us the most growing up helps us.

Create the blueprint for relationships. Mm-hmm. And that can mean what does love look like? What does it feel like? What does ar, what does an argument look like? What does con, how's conflict resolved? How do we show love? We can talk about love languages. And all of that comes into play and is created in our.

I'd say probably our first five, six years of life, but maybe even more so, we learn about relationships and we slowly draw this blueprint of what that is gonna look like. And so then we go out into the world with this blueprint and try to find someone with a similar one that is like. Doesn't match the blueprint, but they, they work well together.

It's like, oh, my blueprint is missing that extra patio. But this [00:05:00] one has it, but it also aligns really nicely with the way the kitchen is set up. And I just say that 'cause blueprint is just such, I can just feel it and I can see it. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that's, that's really why we find ourselves in the same types of relationships, doing the same things, acting in the same ways because we're referring back to that old and outdated.

Blueprint. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. I've often heard people say, well, it's because it's comfortable. And they're like, no, no, no. It's familiar. It's not comfortable. I mean, I know for myself, I go in every time thinking, I wanna do this different. I'm gonna make this different, and then next thing I know, it's not different. I'm doing the same things before.

Kati Morton: Well, and the thing that nobody wants to talk about or admit is it's hard to break that pattern. Yeah. 'cause we're attracted to something. It feels good. I remember one of my good friends, kale, uh, she has a podcast as well, or Kale Lowery. Her and I were talking about this because she would find herself in this, these repeat relationships essentially being taken advantage of, putting in more, getting nothing out.

And I told her, 'cause she was in this new [00:06:00] relationship, she was like, but he's just so boring. And I was like, boring is good. Hang in there, you know? Yeah. And I talk about this in the book too, that my therapist at the time, I come off a string of just the same type of nasty cheating type relationships. And I'm not saying that makes me good and then bad, but I was picking a certain type of person, right?

Yeah. And my therapist was like, you need to be uncomfortable. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Kati Morton: And I'm like, that's rude. Why would you say that? And I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to. And she was like, no, but we're picking, we need to figure out why your picker's broken. Like you, you're, you're needs to be recalibrated, so let's be uncomfortable for a little bit.

And then I met now my husband Sean. Um, and he was very uncomfortable at first. He didn't do what I wanted him to do, and he wasn't like moving as quickly as I thought he should. He wasn't always reachable. He had a life. How dare him? Mm-hmm. Um, all the things that you really sh I should have had in relationships, but I kept finding people that would leave me wanting for more again.

'cause [00:07:00] my blueprint from growing up was, you have to earn your worth. I always thought I had a hustle to, to prove that I was worthy of love. 

Dr. Kerry: I think it's very hard for people to, I mean, you and I are in the profession. We observe people for a living and then we also, that forces us to, hopefully, doesn't always translate this way, but to be observant of ourselves.

But I think for the average person, what you and I are talking about is like, what? How do I know what's happening? You know? How do I know that I'm doing that? And I, so do you have some tips on how to start to slow down and recognize these patterns? I know for me to give an example is that. Here's the one that I used to do is whenever I'd walk into the room, I'd immediately test the temperature of the room.

I would know who's upset, what's happening. I would know who's not talking to whom, who's in the corner, who's, who's secretly maybe angry about something. I'd just like pick it all up and then I'd start to be the, the social grease. I would start to like, make the room work better. Now, obviously that made me feel better 'cause I didn't like the tension of the room.

So part [00:08:00] of it was that, but it also was that. I felt like it was my job to do that, that that I'd been expected to do that and I, I can even point to why. I mean, way back when I was a kid, I grew up on a dairy farm. When something go wrong and my dad was in a follow move, my mom would send us out, tell us to help him go, help your dad.

She'd say, now there was like multiple layers, like, okay, I can't literally fix a tractor, so I'm not going out there to help him. I'm going out there to maybe hold the flashlight. Literally, I would hold the flashlight. Yeah. But there was also another message in that go help your dad. Make him better. He's grumpy.

This is a bad space. This is not good for any of us. So then I would be out there and sure enough, his mood would improve just because he wasn't standing there alone in the cold, in the dark. So I learned my job was to make things go better. Go help the room, make it feel better. So, but that's hard to see and pick up on.

So how can somebody pick up on these ways, being that we've gotten really used to. 

Kati Morton: It is tricky. You're correct. And I'm very much like you in that way. [00:09:00] That I also feel like I am the one that has to make people happy. Mm. And I'm just, I'm uncomfortable with conflict. I, too, but also I, I, in my family, it was the woman's role.

Mm-hmm. To keep everybody happy, keep everybody together. Um, I think the best thing that we all can do, and if anybody's watched me for a while, they're gonna roll their eyes, but is journal. Mm-hmm. And the reason I say it is not to say like, oh dear diary, you have to write for a half an hour. You have to tell it about everything that you're, that's going on.

It's so that you can slow down your thought process and do what I call internal research. Because so much of our life we're just kind of autopilot. We're not really tapped in. We're just doing the things that we do. We don't know why. Like you, you know why, like, why am I doing this? We have to slow it down and start recognizing, maybe this means that in our journaling we look back on past relationships, friendships, romantic.

They're usually very similar. I know we like to break them up. Yeah. But there's very similar, you know, like traits within those. Why does one [00:10:00] relationship work and one not? Are there certain things? This was even helpful for me to think about what traits do most of my friends have. That's interesting. Mm.

Why do I think that is? And the thing that I always wanna remind everybody is you have all the answers. You often just haven't asked yourself the question. So journaling can be a space for that, right? Like, why was I attracted to this person? They didn't really treat me well. What was it that made me think that they were good for me?

Again, this was gonna take time. I wish I had like a, Ooh, do this and snap crack. Yeah. You know, you're right into it. You get it. But learn to be curious about your behaviors, not judgmental. Then we don't need any more shame or guilt. We just need to be curious about where it comes from. Mm-hmm. And it, the answer's always in the past.

It doesn't have to be your childhood. For most of us it is, but for some of us it might be this really important. Relationship that you had in your early twenties that then set the stage for a lot of other things. So, 

Dr. Kerry: mm-hmm. 

Kati Morton: I just encourage everybody to slow down, start [00:11:00] doing some internal research and just be curious about it.

Because I think as much therapy as I've been in. I honestly think most of my breakthroughs have come through the journaling and the in-between work outside of session. 

Dr. Kerry: That's fascinating. That's fascinating. I was thinking about it for myself. I think for me, even if I'd back it up one step earlier, it's walking away realizing, let's take the event.

I walk into the room and I'm taking the temperature already that I walk away from those events exhausted. Then they do this big, huge postmortem memorial like. How come so and so didn't seem happy when they leave And, and what did I not do a good enough? You know, I start to do all this kind of beating myself up afterwards.

And just that process to me was like, something's happening that's not good. I, I, who knows if it was good for them or not, but it wasn't good for me. And then that got me curious about like, okay, wow. Where else am I seeing this? And then to start to backtrack it. But for me, honestly, Katie, I think therapy's been one of the most.

Hard places where I've gotten, I've had several therapists get [00:12:00] kind of like, I didn't always like in, in fact, I fired one of them for her confrontational nature. Mm-hmm. She was a little too blunt with me and I walked away thinking, I can't take this. This is too much. It was really, she was right, but I couldn't hear it.

I wasn't ready to hear it. 

Kati Morton: Well, and that's a tricky thing as a therapist, the, the line that we walk mm-hmm. Between challenging and confronting. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Kati Morton: Because I feel like I agree with you that sometimes we're not ready to hear it. And as a therapist, I'm always acutely, I try to be as acutely aware of that as possible.

And I think any therapist or any other mental health professional, even probably any parent out there can agree that like it can be frustrating. Yeah. And you're like, come on, it's right there. I know we've been here a 

Dr. Kerry: hundred times. Yeah. 

Kati Morton: But it can take forever. I mean, I've had patients come to a quote unquote realization that I've known for years.

Right. And I'm like, oh yes, but you know, we have to. It's good that you stopped seeing her, not because she was wrong, but because it wasn't a good fit. It's too aggressive. No. And then I find that what happens, [00:13:00] the unfortunate thing about that is that even though that was correct, that means you kind of shut off that ability to reflect for a little while.

Yeah. And it might have slowed your process, you know? Um, because, 

Dr. Kerry: well, it made the battle with her instead of the battle with myself and my problem. 

Kati Morton: Exactly. And that's, yeah, it's like a misdirection of energy, right? It's like you don't need to put it into her. It doesn't help anybody. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, these things are really hard and I think the other thing that makes recognizing patterns really hard is that we are so hard on yourself.

That's what you just said. I have a membership and I hear it all the time. People feel guilty or they feel a, even if we're having a normal emotional reaction to something. Somebody just recently, this has come up multiple times. Just recently, somebody's has had a very bad. Past experience with another person who's was harmful to them, actively harmful to them.

This, that person gets sick or gets, you know, something happens catastrophically and they, the harmful, abusive person's life and the victim is supposed to feel sad or feel broke up about it, or, and then there's guilt. You know, everybody [00:14:00] starts to applying guilt, like, why aren't you sad? Or how come you didn't visit them?

And you know. It's amazing how we, we do it to ourselves too. We do the same thing. 

Kati Morton: Well, and again, going back to that blueprint, I love that you brought up that misplaced guilt. I, I'm not gonna take credit for this 'cause it was another psychologist that was talking about this on the podcast. I can't remember her name, so my apologies.

But she mentioned this exact scenario where somebody does harm to us or someone is abusive, uh, at the very least, disrespectful. And something bad happens them, especially if they're a narcissist, they usually come calling, oh, you have no idea. I hurt my leg. I fell down. Oh, you know, they just love to play the murder.

Mm-hmm. And. The humanness of us is like, oh my God, I have to come to their aid. I need to, I'm so sorry. Right? Because we have empathy. Something that they struggle with if, if they have it all right? So they know how to play that game and the fact that we take on the guilt. Like, oh, I should have been there for them.

I wasn't, [00:15:00] you're right. I, I had gone no contact for that month to protect myself. How dare I, not to say it's not really guilt 'cause that's what it feels like. However, I believe, and what this woman was talking about that is so powerful to me is that it's misplaced responsibility. Mm. So what it means is not that you've done anything wrong, 'cause think of like guilt as like in a court of law, you're found guilty.

Boom, boom. You know? Yep, yep. You've done things wrong. There's evidence. And some people might say, well, I can find the evidence. I didn't talk to the, no, no, no. Those are not facts. Those are feelings. You, you believe that you should have. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Kati Morton: You know? But it's more about when I grew up or some other time in my life, I believed that someone else's emotional response and someone else's life experience is my responsibility.

That's where we pick that up. So like you said, you come into the room and you feel it and you're like, wait, it's my job to grease this and to make this work and to make everybody happy. Again, that's not your responsibility, but you believe it is. 

Dr. Kerry: Right? [00:16:00] Right, right. 

Kati Morton: And I think that we do, I mean, I do this all the time.

It's like I'm gonna reach across, let's say we're like on a tennis court. I'm gonna reach across the net into your side, and I'm gonna take it because I believe it's mine. I believe I'm responsible. 

Dr. Kerry: Right. And, and worse. Yeah. Not, not only responsible that, but if you don't fix it for them that you failed.

Yep. 

Kati Morton: And then

Dr. Kerry: you're to blame. So it's, yeah, that's right. Then you're the bad because they couldn't do whatever it is with whatever it was. 

Kati Morton: And narcissists feed on that, right? Because then, oh yeah, they do. Then they can say all sorts of things about you. I can't believe that you let that happen to me, that you weren't there.

You're so selfish. You know, all of these really false narratives, but it feeds off. Our predisposition, our blueprint mm-hmm. For over responsibility. Mm-hmm. So a narcissist will, will have a, a good sniffer to find someone who like you and like me, walks into a room and feels like they have to make everybody happy.

They're like, Ooh, extra empathy. Ooh, that's real good. I don't have that [00:17:00] myself, but I could really exploit that. 

Dr. Kerry: Exactly. I heard that they actually watch for your level of kindness, not niceness, but kindness. 

Kati Morton: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: That they will spot that and they will know, then they can exploit that about you. 

Kati Morton: Yes. And that's where like first dates or first times hanging out with friends?

Yeah. Like they'll start to notice how much you consider. The waitress or whatever. 

Dr. Kerry: Right, right, right. I told a TA terrible story on another, uh, another podcast episode of a, this guy that I was out on a date with, saw a waitress, uh, support staff or for the, for the restaurant, and she had all gold plating on her teeth.

Now, first of all. It took me a moment, but pause and think about why that would happen. Mm-hmm. What's happened to her front of her teeth? It tells me there's a couple options that's occurred in her life and none, none of them are good. 

Kati Morton: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: All of them means something really, really wrong happened. He called her over in front of me and said, what's this?

What's this? And then he said, what do you, to me, tell her what you think of that. 

Kati Morton: What? Wow. 

Dr. Kerry: I know, I know. 

Kati Morton: To see how, 'cause then you were probably super kind. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. So [00:18:00] I, I was kind and then she walked away and he said, why did you say that? Wasn't it ugly? And I just, I looked at him and thought, I'm never going out with you ever again.

No. I mean, yeah, it was cruel, so 

Kati Morton: overt. 

Dr. Kerry: It was very, very overt. But when normally we don't get those kinds of, I, he just sort of like had a placard, you know, don't pick me. I'm dangerous, 

Kati Morton: I'm an, I'm an asshole. Walk away. 

Dr. Kerry: I know most of them are not, that are like that, but they just will watch how, what we'll do or don't do with people.

So let's go back to that guilt though. 'cause that's where people start to fall apart, is they don't know what to do with it and they even feel like having negative feelings is a bad thing. 

Kati Morton: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Have you seen that? 

Kati Morton: Yes. And I experienced that and I even have a whole chapter in my book about anger and my hatred for strong emotions.

Um, I love 

Dr. Kerry: that the hatred for strong emotions. 

Kati Morton: So uncomfortable. Oh, I wanna tear my skin off. Right. Um, I think in general, for those of us myself, I didn't grow up around conflict, which people think, oh, that's such a good thing your parents didn't fight. But then I [00:19:00] actually don't know how to fight. I don't know how to be around arguments.

I don't know how to repair. I never saw that. So that's left me with the space where it's like, I don't know how to deal. Like it's uncomfortable to, to feel that way or to be around any conflict. And so. To your question about like, well, what do we do with those emotions? Something that's really been helpful for me, and again, I know I keep going back to journaling, but you can just jot it down anywhere.

It doesn't have to be properly journaled is taking a mental stock of, of responsibility. Mm-hmm. And be honest with yourself. Mm-hmm. And if you can't do it for yourself, imagine it's somebody else. Mm-hmm. Imagine it's your partner, your best friend, your sister, somebody you're close with. That's a good, healthy relationship.

Think if they were me. Would I tell them that they're responsible for this? And it doesn't always work in the moment, but it does help at least after the fact for me to realize where I'm taking on something that's not mine. Yeah, because that's where the guilt comes from. Is that ownership of I'm responsible for how this person feels.

I'm [00:20:00] responsible for, you know, I don't know their experience today. I'm responsible for keeping them happy, making sure they're healthy. You, the, the list could go on and on. Um, but checking in with that has really helped me. It's not perfect, but at least helps me recognize where I'm taking on ownership over something that, number one, I have zero control over.

And number two, that is actually making me feel worse. Yeah. It's like I'm, I'm, how can you take ownership over how someone experiences life? I can't change that for you. I can't make you happy. That's a choice you have to make. And so just checking in on that. Has probably been the best. And also keeping a list, and this is sounds so not therapy, like not a therapist thing to say, but I tell people, especially with narcissistic abuse, to keep a list of the wrongs, the ways they've wronged you.

Yeah. 'cause they will try to tell you through gaslighting and other manipulation tactics that it didn't happen. That you're overreacting, that you're being too much or whatever. And we forget. [00:21:00]Yeah. 'cause they, they manipulate us so much and get us so confused. We forget all the ways that they've harmed us.

And so sometimes when that guilt comes around, 'cause they're like, I can't believe you wouldn't call me. Did you know I had almost had a stroke? You know? And I had to go, it's always something medical, some big thing. That horrible thing that happened. I fell down, I hurt myself. Somebody hurt my feelings, I lost my job, blah, blah, blah.

When they say all of that and you feel guilty, you can go to that list and be like, no, I was not talking to them because of all of this. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. 

Kati Morton: And it doesn't necessarily like negate it, but it does help kind of squash that, that foe guilt. And I think when we pair that with the what's my responsibility and what's not, we can pull ourselves out at least a little bit.

Dr. Kerry: It's hard though because sometimes we don't know what is our responsibility. I've actually heard real confusion around that because the early childhood or wherever the original pattern got set, and I, I agree with you. Sometimes it doesn't get set exactly in childhood. It gets set in some powerful experience we've had.[00:22:00]

Like I walk away and say, don't ever do that again. That's such a miserable experience. And then you don't realize, you just created a template for yourself. 

Kati Morton: Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: But you end up thinking these things are a responsibility. 'cause it seemed to be, or everybody said that it was, and it goes better when you do it that way, even at mm-hmm.

What is a great cost to yourself. So how do you then discern those things that, what's reasonable, what's not reasonable that you, you know what I'm just asking? 

Kati Morton: Yes. And it's a great question. I think the best, there's a couple of layers. I'll, I'll talk about like two main points. I think the first is that we do not have control over anyone else.

Mm-hmm. And so if your quote unquote responsibility means controlling someone else's emotional expression or experience or reaction, those are all immediately nos. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I encourage people to ask this question, if by doing this can I make a reasonable change? Mm-hmm. The answer is like, well, I don't know.

Or maybe, you know, if, even if it's [00:23:00] like, kind of like squishy, then the answer is no. Yep. That means you don't have, I mean, like if I spend effort trying to figure out what I have to have for dinner tonight, can I come up with a reasonable solution? Yeah. But if I think about can I make Katie have a great experience on this interview?

No, I, I mean, I've, I can try, but I can't, you know, there's so many variables I'm outta control of. To me, then that's a failure. 

Kati Morton: Yeah, you can't guarantee. Right, 

Dr. Kerry: exactly. That's the point. You're right. And I think, I can't guarantee it. 

Kati Morton: And that's the big piece is if you can't be certain. If you can't guarantee, then it's a no.

Mm-hmm. And that, honestly, that's a great way to to look at it too, because that is the, because it's not you. It's not within your locus of control. As we talk, right. Therapist speak, it just really means what can I actually control? Spoilers, it's just ourselves. Yeah. So we have to remind ourselves of that over and over.

Because we, you know, people will try to get us to think and our blueprint tells us so that this is how, you know, we're supposed to make everybody happy even though we can't. Um, it's our role to do [00:24:00] this. You know, something bad happened to them because of me. Did we actually cause it? Did I do something? No.

Then no, you know. And so I think that checking in about whether or not we actually can control it, is it something we can truly do or not tells you whether it's your responsibility or not. I think that's kind of the first big piece. And then I think under that, I, I want everybody to just check in on the patterns.

Look for those patterns. Going back to the journaling, I think along with like, is it in my control or is it not? And then like, we have to learn how, how things affect us so that we can actually change it. Right? We can't change what we don't know. So I really feel like the, the underlying piece of that is like, you know that when you walk into a room, it's your job to make everybody happy.

I know that when I walk into a room, if the, like the vibe is off, if I feel conflict, I either need to leave. Or I need to make it better for the people that are the most important to me. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Kati Morton: That's on me and those aren't things that I [00:25:00] want to do or to be. Mm-hmm. It's kind of turned me into like a control freak also.

It means I don't have very good boundaries and that can be really, is also exhausting. Mm-hmm. Emotional TA tax of for it for me. Um, and so. I think once I understand that, that gives me like actions I can take, right? Because if you're like, well, that's not my responsibility. Okay, I've identified that. But then you're like, then what do I do with it?

Dr. Kerry: Well, yeah. That was the next piece I was gonna bring up is the change itself is very, very hard. 

Kati Morton: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: I mean, okay, so now say, let's use my example again. I know that that's my. Default. And I know that it's really not good for me and it's not my job in the room. And it also, in a way we, most of, we don't talk about this, it short changes the other person's growth experience.

Kati Morton: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Because they need to deal with the uncomfortableness of their internal state to do something different with it so they can become a healthier person. If I always, yeah, I should change that, then I don't let them grow. 

Kati Morton: Or build confidence 

Dr. Kerry: or not grow. I mean, they also have the option to not grow too.

Kati Morton: It's their 

Dr. Kerry: choice. Their choice, exactly. [00:26:00] So, but the change itself, meaning, so you walk in and you say, okay, the room doesn't feel good. I'm not going to do anything about it. I'm gonna go sit down in mind my own business. Woo. That doesn't feel good. 

Kati Morton: It's not gonna feel good. And I think that's kind of a misconception is that, oh, we should like New Year, new me.

Right. We do that for the new year. Mm-hmm. Oh, change is good and healthy. Yes. Change is both good and healthy, but I tell you what, it's not comfortable. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah, 

Kati Morton: it is the most uncomfortable thing. I will tell you that when I, so I had homework for my therapist, this is years ago where she was, I over apologize.

That's where my people pleasing, shows up in a small way that we could like count and try to stop. It was like a behavior that we 

Dr. Kerry: pointed 

Kati Morton: was 

Dr. Kerry: like, should you play a drinking game to it? 

Kati Morton: Pretty much. Oh, you'd be like blackout drunk by like 9:00 AM and so she was like, I want you to try to not apologize.

That was the first tri trial of this homework and I. [00:27:00] I could not, it was so I was, it's almost embarrassingly I failed that homework, like, couldn't even tell you. Then she was like, well just count how many times I carry the number was hor. It was embarrassing again. Probably stopped counting around like 50.

Right. That's not Uhhuh. What? Then she was like, okay. This is clearly an issue. Let's try. So this is all part of the change, right? I'm just trying to change this one behavior. Yeah. She's like, I just want you to, when you find yourself apologizing, even if you've already said it, I want you to consider what you're sorry for, and then I want you to keep track of that.

And then I want you to tell me about it. And when I tell you, I say sorry a lot for someone who's not sorry about anything. Was an eyeopener. And so then the homework was, I want you to only say sorry when you truly believe that you've done something wrong and that, you know, you can tell me about it. And I would agree.

I mean, these are all steps, right? And this was all for this tiny behavior. And so anybody out there who's trying to make change and is like, I have to walk in this room and not try to fix [00:28:00]

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, 

Kati Morton: it's gonna be, it's gonna feel so. Opposite of what you should be doing. You're gonna feel very uncomfortable.

You're gonna find yourself doing other weird things. Mm-hmm. That's what's interesting is that you'll still try to do it, but not in the way that we thought we should do it, and then. As another random, just prepare yourself. People will react to, and maybe even come over and ask you to do something. Yes.

Because they're used to you doing it. Or 

Dr. Kerry: they'll ask, are you all right? Are you 

Kati Morton: all right? Family especially, yeah. This is why the jokes of like, you know, nothing like going home for a week to undo 12 years of therapy, right? Like you feel that. I always call it the family dance. And it's like, we know that song.

Oh, I hear that song playing and I know exactly my role. I know the steps that I take. I know how to move with it. And so you'll find that people have been around you for a long time when you're trying to sit on your hands and be like, you guys figure your own shit out. I can't do this. Someone may come over and be like, why aren't you doing this?

Are you feeling okay? What's wrong with you? [00:29:00] You don't seem as chipper, as usual, as friendly. 'cause that's really you trying to make. You know, being the grease. Right. Right. And we have to say, oh, I'm fine doing great. Thanks for asking, whoop. And we sit 

Dr. Kerry: on our hands and then that feels bad too. It, it all 

Kati Morton: feels so icky.

Dr. Kerry: I know, I know. It is so hard. It is so hard. At first, I about wanted to come right out my skin. Yeah. I could hardly stand it. But you know, it's interesting. I've been really practicing a lot with my own sons. And now it, it's a relief. I've been able to move through that. Horrible. This is weird. I don't like this.

I don't know what to do with myself. And now it's like, oh, it's so good to be in a room and not have to manage everybody in the room. 

Kati Morton: The relaxation, the, the weight off the shoulders. Mm-hmm. I always like to think of it like starting a new job, right? Mm-hmm. It's uncomfortable at first and we don't know how everything works and we feel like so klutzy and like we're making things harder and everything's taking longer.

But then after a few weeks of doing that, it's almost old hat then it's easy. Yeah, yeah. Oh, click, click, click. I [00:30:00] can do this, I can send this. And that's really how behavioral changes. But most of us stop and give up in that first period where we're like, this is so uncomfortable. And so for me, and I'm not perfect either, like people who read the book will be like, you know, she definitely has her own issues and I do, is that I'm not good all the time.

Like there will still be triggers and also if you catch me when I'm tired or my resilience is low, like best of luck, like, 

Dr. Kerry: or when I'm hanging back around my own family, 

Kati Morton: you know? Yes. If I haven't eaten, I'm with my family. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, you know, like it's not gonna be good, but. I know I can do better and I can sit in that discomfort and I, I want everybody to know that it does get easier.

And to your point, the relief that you feel is Oh, so amazing. And I feel like that freedom is worth the discomfort for a little period of time. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Kati Morton: If you can sit with it. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, this is really, really rich. I wanna talk about in the podcast extra with you why those around us want us to do those things. I would really love to get into [00:31:00] what about them makes them expect, uh, somebody outside of them to manage their own internal experiences and their emotions.

So let's jump over and do that. But how can people find out more about you and more about why do I keep doing that? 

Kati Morton: Yes. My, uh, all my social medias are Katie Morton. That's K-A-T-I-M-O-R-T-O-N. I always say Morton, like the salt. That's fin. Um, all my socials are the same, whether it's TikTok, uh, YouTube. I also have a podcast called Ask Katie anything that comes out every Thursday.

And my book, why do I keep doing this? Is available wherever you purchase books. I always wanna encourage people, if you can buy from your local bookstore, we wanna keep them alive and thriving. Um, find your little local person and have them order it for you. Um, it's available wherever books are sold.

Dr. Kerry: Great. Thank you so much for this, Katie. This was really wonderful. 

Kati Morton: Thank you for having me. 

Dr. Kerry: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over and you're wondering yourself, was it really that bad? Or maybe I'm just being dramatic. So you start to draft that, I'm sorry, text again, because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable.[00:32:00]

And you know this loop because you've been there before. But I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist and for 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.

Here's the truth. Recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a private, always available coaching app built from my work and my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered inside it.

You'll get five minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive. Check-ins that meet you exactly where you are. Whether you're feeling strong, shattered or numb boundary scripts that help you say no without overexplaining grounding tools that work fast when you're activated and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even [00:33:00] on days when it feels like you're not.

There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment, just practical support right when you need it, reclaim you. Real hope in real time. Right in your pocket and it's a coaching support, not therapy or emergency care. Learn more@studio.com slash Dr. Carey. So start your healing today and reclaim you.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.

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