Road Rage & Other Terrifying Ways Narcissists Use Cars to Intimidate You

If you've ridden in a car with a narcissist, then you've likely experienced them using their driving to intimidate, threaten, or scare you. People with narcissistic traits often use vehicles like a weapon, turning you into more of a hostage instead of a passenger.

This week, Dr. Kerry and co-host Lynn break down why road rage and narcissism frequently co-occur and how the car gets used for far more than just driving, i

If you've survived narcissistic abuse, want to watch the part we couldn't fit into the main episode? Become a paid Substack subscriber and learn:

• What to actually do if you're experiencing narcissistic abuse but you can't leave yet
• Why "how do I make them stop?" is the wrong first question,
• Why grey rock can backfire behind the wheel
• And the dangerous assumption nearly every survivor makes about their own safety.

Become a paid subscriber here and unlock your access today!

LYNN STRATHDEE is a UK-based psychodynamic psychotherapist specializing in echoism, narcissistic abuse recovery, and the unconscious patterns that keep survivors stuck in repeating relationship cycles. A former educator turned therapist, Lynn brings both clinical training and lived experience to her private practice, where she works with clients online and in person. Her approach goes beyond surface-level psychoeducation to the deeper identity work that creates lasting change.

Website

Resources

• The Complete Recovery Collection: Narcissistic abuse resources
• First Steps to Leaving: Online self-paced digital course
• Toxic-Free Relationship Club: Live coaching & community support

Follow Kerry!

• Youtube
• Instagram
• TikTok
• Facebook

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., an author and educator, helps listeners decode toxic dynamics, recognize manipulation, and rebuild self-trust.

As an Amazon affiliate, commission is earned from qualifying purchases.

This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice, nor does listening create a doctor-patient or therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, please call 911 or contact the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by calling or texting 988 (US/Canada).

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Nobody thinks that those things are being used as devices for control and emotional manipulation. You just don't think about that. But actually, if you're in a relationship like that, that's one little nugget out of your day. But there's every chance that it's actually been a highly antagonistic, very difficult experience, even something that should just be just a commonplace.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Let's be honest, you can get killed in a car, it's not that hard. And you would think, and this is the other part that doesn't make sense in these situations, you would think that the person who's doing the abuse through the vehicle is also invested in their own life. But they act in these moments like they're careless, like they don't frankly care who they take with them in these moments.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Because I think highly narcissistic people are more volatile, more erratic. I found our journeys with more strategic, devious, Machiavellian. There was one in particular who had a real thing about control, and everything was very, very, very controlled.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

We were getting in the car, and I was having a pull-on bad asthma attack. He pulled over and he blocked the people behind us. One of the other car drivers had road rage themselves at us being in the way, not realizing it was a medical emergency. They came over and started screaming at him and at me through the window. And instead of focusing on me and explaining the situation, he got aggressive, pulled out a weapon, and then chased them. And then they came back and then they beat our car, damaging it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

And I don't know why we're surprised by that. Because ultimately, you're talking about a disordered personality, aren't you? Like severely pathologically self-centered, just cannot see another person as important under any circumstances, life or death, it still doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Lynn, I hear all the time about road rage and narcissists, and that they often they seem to go together. And I'm not saying everybody who ever has had road rage is a narcissist. I'm not making that claim, but that it's really common for somebody who has issues with narcissism to also do weird things when they're behind the wheel. I, first of all, have you experienced this at any level before?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I I have, unfortunately. Yeah, I have, with somebody who wound up sort of turning into a stalker. Um, but at that time, um, that was long before that, he would drive his car in a really kind of threatening way to intimidate you, depending on what was going on within the relationship. And I know that I wasn't the only person that he did that with. So he would use the vehicle as a way of kind of getting to you emotionally, frightening you, you know. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

So it was actually a method of communication.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Definitely. And of course, because it's an enclosed space, it's a very kind of high tension, high stress environment. So yeah, no, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

It's interesting because my ex, when I first met him, I thought he was too slow, methodical. He was a really, really careful driver. It to the point that it kind of bothered me. Here we are on a highway that's moving 70 miles an hour in the United States, and he's moving 55-60 or something like that. It just felt odd. But on the other hand, we might uh argue about that. Okay, great, he's being careful. But when we were got into the relationship, I saw another side. Yeah, he became aggressive. The opposite, that the full polar opposite of what I was experiencing before flipped. It was like he was limiting himself in some way, putting on his best foot forward.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

I was gonna say, like doing a bit of a show at the beginning to sort of drop be the perfect driver.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah, like making me feel cared for. Only then once he was in the relationship, it's sort of like, okay, here's here's the real picture. He was aggressive. Um, he drove erratically. Now we were living in Mexico in the time, and anybody who's ever driven in Mexico knows that that is not a fun country to drive in because the rules seem to be, they seem to be guidelines, not rules. Like they go it, they'll invent lanes, you know. So you'll be in a two-lane area, and then suddenly people will act like it's three or four lanes, and I'm not even exaggerating. Roundabouts, I don't know what you call them in the UK, but we call them roundabouts, they're called glorietas in Mexico. But people would actually make lefts on rights in front of you. It's really yeah. So you learn to drive in a different way, but he would drive within inches of the driver ahead of him, hit the accelerator a lot, uh, hit the brake really hard. And then if anybody treated him in a way that he thought was inappropriate, he would get aggressive with them, like ride them too close, or actually stop on the highway in front of them to see what they it was just it was scary.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

But I think you alluded to at the beginning of the of the conversation that we're all guilty of like losing our temper. It's it's difficult, you know, and we've all done it. But I think what happens in a car with someone who's highly narcissistic is the car is kind of like a metaphor for the self. And and and other people are really just an inconvenience and shouldn't really be there, you know. So and it's kind of like a broader sort of metaphor, I think, for just how they see the world more broadly. You know, get out of my way, the speed limit is an obstacle, other cars are obstacles or irritations because it's predominantly just this vehicle, you know, this vehicle. Yeah. So the car is just an extension, really, I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, I agree. I agree, because in fact, I I don't know how much work you've done with dream interpretation, but people often dream about being in cars. That's a common dream sequence of sorts. And and it's interesting because when you're interpreting dreams, which I find fascinating and enjoy doing, is that if you're driving versus if you're a passenger, and it's yeah, it's a metaphor for who's in charge of your life. So it kind of follows with what you're saying, is if the car, in a way, is a metaphor for our sense of control and what we're kind of how we're handling the mastery of our life, these individuals are not just doing this in a dream, handling, you know, dealing out manifesting what they feel about the world, they're manifesting it in reality.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah. But if you're a passenger with a highly narcissistic person, you're also a completely captive audience to that person's emotional states. And they, I feel, are very aware of that. That they know that you're kind of gonna have to feel what I'm feeling. I want you to experience what I'm experiencing, which I think is just narcissistic relationships full stop. You know, you need to be feeling what I'm feeling right now, uh, because you're do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

I do. I was thinking about it in a different way, but you're right. They that you're right. They're that so what you're saying, and because I was heading in a different direction, what you're saying is that if I'm angry, I want you to suffer my anger, I want you to suffer my frustration with the world that's unfair to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, because it is all all about what's going on with me, and you're in that enclosed space. So you you're literally gonna feel what I want you to feel, which I think is exactly what it's like in those in those relationships. And I also you're talking about dreams and that metaphor of you know who's driving, who's the passenger, who's the driver. But also there's this idea of the the sort of destination versus the journey, where you know, screw the the journey, the enjoyment of the journey, it becomes about, you know, the car itself as a kind of representation of how I, you know, often very nice cars or cars seem to be important, personalized license plates and all that stuff, but not really focusing on enjoying the journey itself, just more about kind of getting my objectives met.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that's even another interesting angle is what kind of car does this person have? What what are they driving? What kind of features do they need to have on it? What do they say about other cars and other drivers of other cars? You know, that's a whole nother aspect of it too.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Have you ever had a real thing about cars? Because I've never really cared. I don't really understand the kind of obsession that people have with cars.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yes and no. I mean, uh okay, so I'm I grew up in a family, first of all, we we're in the United States, there's three big car industry makers here. There used to be at least there used to be. Used to be GM Ford, and then there was the um Chrysler, GM Ford and Chrysler. And I'm from originally Michigan, so that is car USA. That's where they it's where Henry Ford is from Detroit. So what you find, and this is kind of I don't know if you know this about United Americans, but that we end up either you're a Ford, Ford person, you're a GM person, you're a Chrysler person. Did you did you know that? Yeah, yeah. So my family was Ford or Ford buyers. That didn't mean we strictly only bought Fords, but that meant there was a preference into that direction of the vehicle. It was based on you know, people could argue who which was made better. It was it's just interesting how even that happens, how people get attached to a a manufacturer is somehow is the better manufacturer. But I what I so so the other thing, the other kind of rule of thumb is you don't buy new, you buy used, because the minute you walk, you drive a car off a lot, you lose a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah. So so we had these kind of rules. And so that's what the kind of buy car buyer I've been is buy used. No, I don't buy Fords. I buy foreign cars usually. Uh, but I usually buy reliable, you know. I buy something except this last time I wanted a nice car because I wanted a really nice sound system. So I bought it for the sound system, I didn't buy it for the car.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

But did you notice that your very narcissistic ex-husband had a thing about having to have the car, like the it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

No, it's interesting. He he had a strong preference for Kia's. Oh, okay. Which is not, I mean, that's kind of a modest car, but we bought a nice, nice high-end one of those. Um, yeah, no. But on the other hand, here was an interesting thing. He would drop hints that he would like to have a Cadillac.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

He wanted a black Cadillac, he wanted a black SUV Cadillac.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

And he'd like you to buy it.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

I think he wanted to get me to buy it. Yes. I I would just like, uh uh-huh. And I just thought, no, that's uh it's a that's too strong of a all I could think of is, you know, who in Mexico drives black Cadillacs.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I just am not, I'm not going to align my my identity with a black Cadillac. I'm and in Mexico, I'm not, that would be stupid. Yeah, but so yeah, that to me that didn't really he wasn't he he he liked nice things. He wanted a Rolex. That was a what he would go in and look at them with regularity, go look at them, and then just sort of like drool over them. But but but but normally it wasn't like he had the right cloth stamp in a label, and he wasn't normally that careful. But I he definitely was meticulous about his appearance and meticulous about his belongings. They were kept in good repair, but just not necessarily cars, but but yeah, but here's the really super odd thing, and I know we've diverted off of cars, and I want to go back to because I think cars often also not just serve about as a metaphor of I want you to experience what I'm experiencing. I also think they're their efforts, like you stated, they're they're messages, they're communication. I'm making a statement to you. So I think they're they're both in. But here's the weird thing is that I caught a video of him because I never got to see where he lived. I never I never was in his house before he he and I moved in together when we got married. Um, and I I found a video of him walking through his apartment where he lived, and he lived with a mattress on the floor, a TV on a cardboard box, and clothes, you know, strewn on the bed, and he had no furniture. It was it's it's nothing. He was in and I end up wondering how often is that true for a lot of narcissists between supply, you know? Yeah. That they they they are burning, destroying their life so badly that that it just becomes this hollow that they're actually parasitically living on top of other people's developed life, but they don't really have one of their own.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, and of course the car is something that other people are gonna see, whereas the home not necessarily. Yes, you know, so no one was ever gonna see him living on a mattress. But the car is like that mask.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yes, yes, that's a good way. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

You know, it's kind of uh I don't know if you experienced this as well, and it's not quite a road rage thing, but it's a dysfunctional, really difficult, antagonistic behaviour around cars, which was I noticed that he would be deliberately, he would deliberately take a wrong turn to make the journey go wrong so that I would become stressed and upset and we'd be late. Do you know what I mean? When you knew that we know where we're going, this is not complicated, but we wound up it wasn't like a strange area. No, no, no. Go going the wrong way to create tension, to create an argument, to create stress, so that you then end up getting where you're going really kind of wound up, possibly having had a fight in the car, or it certainly you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 13:39

I do. Where I I didn't experience that, but what I heard from clients, they'd come in and tell me about how their their spouse would drive poorly, it'd scare them, drive too fast, or take risks, or cut people off, and then they would cut like they would come in, maybe even for the appointment, all stirred up because just exactly what you just just described is this person sort of manufactured by their behavior, incident which now they've they were trying to regulate themselves from it. I mean, they were so upset, so angry, so frustrated, you know, scared, maybe, maybe even.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

And I think that's what's so difficult for survivors or partners, family members, is that what is a really normal everyday thing, driving a car, going to the supermarket, I don't know, going on a trip. Nobody thinks that those things are being used as devices for control and emotional manipulation. You just don't think about that. But actually, if you're in a relationship like that, that's one little nugget out of your day. But there's every chance that it's actually been a highly antagonistic, very difficult experience, even something that should just be just a commonplace thing. And I think that's what's so hard is because it's such a commonplace event, such a ubiquitous thing, that people often have a hard time believing that that that really is going on. You know?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, you're and you're right. They they they're using these moments that you assume that we're just on autopilot, that they're safe and nobody's giving them any thought, like getting up, getting ready for work and going to work, driving into work. Think that should be just you do it every day. What would but and yet these are where the moments, those irritating moments occur that really go that just then it sets the whole day wrong because it because it's conflictual or because you know it's coming and it's always bad, or you know, or you had an argument and they're gonna work it out, they're working argument out the next time you get into the car with them.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah. But you'll have clients, I don't know if you have this, clients that that turn up to a session talking about stuff like that, feeling like they're that they're going crazy. Like, is it just me? You know, am I imagining it that these car journeys I mean, this is one topic, but you know, that these car journeys are just like, why is everything so difficult? Like just the little things.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, and then they end up debating this. This is where they go. They say, Do I stay in the car? Do I stop and make them get out and take a take a lift taxi or something else? And becomes like, or do I just start taking a bus or or do I just start walking? They literally start to try try to think of problem solve because what they're really describing is a boundary breach that's has to do with because the car you let's be honest, you can get killed in a car, it's not that hard. And you would think, and this is the other part that doesn't make sense in these situations, you would think that the person who's doing the the abuse through the vehicle is also invested in their own life. But they act in these moments like like they're they're careless, like they don't like don't don't frankly care who they take with them in these moments. Is I did you feel like that when that was happening to you?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

I I think I was more taken by kind of the cooler sort of psychopathic behavior. That struck me more than that. I feel like I had more exposure to that very calculated because I think highly narcissistic people, men I'm talking about specifically, because that was my experience, are more volatile, more erratic. I found um car journeys with more strategic, devious, Machiavellian I'm making it sound like there were loads of them. There weren't, there was one in particular who had a real thing about control, and everything was very, very, very controlled. Everything was immaculate, you know, perfect, but very often little traps set up around journeys, travelling. I'm not being very specific for a reason, but he was really scary. And he would use the car, he would turn up late, and of course I was frightened of him, so I wouldn't challenge him, and then he would deliberately screw up the whole experience, but always completely cool. Whereas more narcissistic, just very erratic and angry, and you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

It reminds me, here here was an incident that happened in the car with me that I found extraordinarily disturbing. We had left um a movie and we were in a mall parking garage, believe yeah, Mexico has big big cities have are very metropolitan, just like European cities and the cities of the United States. And we were in a setting like that, and we were getting in the car, and I was having a full-on bad asthma attack, and I didn't have any medication on me at the time. And we're near a pharmacy. We just need to get to the pharmacy so I can run in and get the right medication. And we he pulled over, and there was a line of cars trying to get out of the mall parking because it was like a movie just let out, so it was a big line of cars. He pulled over and he'd blocked the people behind us. And one of the other car drivers got enraged, had road rage themselves at us being in the way, not realizing it was a medical emergency. It wasn't just to be provocative. They came over and started screaming at him and at me through the window. And instead of focusing on me and explaining the situation, he got aggressive, pulled out a weapon, and then chased them. And then they came back and then they beat our car, damaging it with an implement. Meanwhile, I'm having a asthma attack.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Did you get to the hospital?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

I did get to the pharmacy, but it was but well, that was the whole other part of it. He took a long time, and I thought he I did think in the moment he doesn't care if I die. And that I had had a babysitter die of an asthma attack. Not in our house, but it was it happened. I knew her, she'd been babysitting my kids on a regular basis, and she had a flare like this, and then died at the school grounds from an asthma attack. So I I realized it was a real risk that if I didn't get the right kind of care and the right type type of time, and if it didn't resolve on its own, it's and and asthma responds to its response to crisis, it gets worse. So here I am under crisis, which might make my lungs tighten further. It was oh man, it was awful. It was awful. And I there's a part of me there was a moment that I felt like his use of the vehicle was very manipulative and felt staged. That that argument chasing down the people, engaging with them, getting them to actually, you know, take something to the car and put dents in the side of the near the bumper. I mean, I just felt it felt it felt, you know, ruthless, maybe callous.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yeah. And I don't know why we're surprised by that, because ultimately you're talking about a disordered personality, aren't you? Like severely pathologically self-centered, just cannot see another person as important under any circumstances. I think that's easy to forget as well, isn't it? Like life or death, it still doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, I it's it's almost like what I felt like is if I had said to him, this I this is what I actually thought about this at the time. I thought if I said to him, This is life-threatening, it we need to treat it so that he would think, Oh, you're just being so dramatic. But I had had the if yet I also knew that if it was my late husband who knew the woman, a young lady who died, the teenager who died, he treated my asthma attacks seriously, like they were life-threatening because he'd had that experience. He's seen it. Yeah, he'd seen it. He knew her. We went to her funeral, it was real, we knew the family. I mean, it was a massive loss. And and then and he also had seen me ex he'd seen me have lots of asthma attacks. So, but I felt like it was like it was kind of to go with what you were saying. His inter my ex's interpretation of reality was his own interpretation, and it didn't matter what reality was, it was his. Based on his interpretation. Yeah. If it wasn't life threatening to him, it wasn't life threatening.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Because I say so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, because I say so. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It was the strangest experience. And yeah, I yeah, you know, this is an exercise I do with people. So when I was back in the day when I was doing counseling, I would ask them to imagine a room in the in their mind space and fill the room with those that were most important to them. And then and then let that populate with that group and then begin to say, who's the most dramatically uh colorful? Who's standing in the center? Who's the loudest? Who's nearly invisible? Who lacks color? And then I would say, where are you standing in the room? And what I have found is when people are in relationships with a narcissist, that person's in the center and they're very large, they're dramatic, they're bold, they're outlined well. And usually the partner is often struggles to find themselves in the room or they're their wallflower. But that's what it feels like with the with the in the car. It actually feels like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah, yeah. But you the trouble with being a passenger is you literally are stuck though, aren't you? There's just nothing you can do about it. And it can be quite scary.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

It can. So what I did, and I'd love to know what you did, I would play in my phone. I would I downloaded games and I would literally play games on my phone that I wouldn't watch. I would just tune out.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah, no, I can't I I get really bad car sickness if I do anything um with my eyes fixed or like reading games, phone, anything like that. And the time I was talking to you about before with the the the really frightening behaviour that was deliberately he was screaming at the top of his lungs, the C word at me um at the end of a disastrous weekend. And I was absolutely terrified and I just didn't say anything. I just kind of kept my eyes front. And I remember thinking, if I could just get home, just get me home. And we got home and I swore I would never have anything to do with him again. And you know, within six weeks I was back in the relationship. You know, the way that we the way that we do. I I c I thought I'm not gonna make I might not make it home in one piece. Got home and then swore that's it, I'm done. I'm never going through this again. But six weeks later You know, back home.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I do know. Were you ever in the car again with him?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Not like that. No, no, that was a big that was a long journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

But it's interesting you got back into a car again though. Yeah. Just it just wasn't like that. Yeah, even that. I mean, I I know, but I rode for three years with this guy. Three years. And this is yeah, like you, I feel that too. I feel that same sort of like, I can't believe that I did this. I I felt like getting in the car with him was taking my life in my own hands, and yet I would get in the car over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I still do it.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

I know. It's like I felt like, okay, the options were this either I drive and he critiqued me and he's ruthless and relentless, or he drives and I deal with the the consequence, and I shut my mouth and play on the phone and try to pretend that he's not about ready to kill us over many overtimes.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah. So yeah, it's just one of those things that you learn to accept as just part of the relationship, you know. This is just the price that you pay. Which after a period of time where you look back and think, what was I, what the hell was I thinking? You know?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yeah, yeah. It's that's the really, really hard part. It's that's that to me is uh yeah, it's like you said, what was I thinking part of it? Yeah, well, what were my options? I mean, people will, well, your option's really clear, you get out. But leaving is, I mean, that's a whole we will get into that discussion, but that's not simple. Things are not that simple.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

No, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah. Wow. It's this is really fascinating. So I do, but we didn't get into, and let's touch on it briefly before we wrap this up. I do also think they use the car as a as a method of communication. You know, that when they're enraged, it's like I'm gonna punish you and I want you to feel terror and this is you know, I'm taking this out on you. Or I don't want to do or go with what you're making me do or you know, where we're going, and so I'm gonna make sure I, in a passive aggressive way, let you know that I'm angry about this. And this is my way of expressing the frustration.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, I don't know if this is gonna get, you know, I think it's difficult saying stuff about men specifically, because I know that there are, of course, a lot of abusive women, but I think because of um certainly our generation experiences with men, there's a real kind of men, cars, women being, you know, kind of stupid or not knowledgeable about cars. There's something about certainly my generation, I'll speak for myself, our generation getting into a car with a man, and there's there's almost an assumption that, well, you don't know any, you know, you don't know anything. You know, there's a kind of hierarchical thing from the from the kind of get-go. And all I was meaning there was I think in a way that I would push back very differently on someone using a vi you know, using that kind of environment to sort of, I don't know, project their feelings. I wouldn't tolerate that now because I see it quite differently. But I think I think there is something about being a woman with an aggressive man in a car where we might sort of tolerate some of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

It is. In fact, I was thinking of the old commercials that we used to have, which is the sexy woman sleeking against the car. It's almost as if the car and the woman were status symbols. You had the right-looking woman and you had the the right kind of car, and they went together, and that's that's your role. You were to play that role, function in that way.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Did you notice narcissistic men like making the hand signals for you? Like thanking other drivers on your behalf, like you wouldn't think of doing that yourself. Do you know what I mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 28:09

No, I didn't no, I didn't see that, but I could see that happening. Absolutely. I I got more comments, like you should go now. Go now. Why did you go now?

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

You know, directions on like literally, you didn't take that left, you missed it. You missed it. Like back, or or once he said to me, You're the kind, and I thought this was the strangest, strangest comment. You're the kind of driver that makes other people have accidents. And I was like, Where's the Pops behind me? I don't literally know what you're talking about. Meanwhile, he he had an accident in my car. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

You know, you do kind of wonder, like, what do you think I'm doing when you're not here, like giving me top tips on how to live in.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

And since I'm older than you by a few years, that means longer than you.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

So no, I definitely noticed the kind of, you know, like if somebody let me out thanking them on my behalf.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

I was like, thank you for the letting the little lady through.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All that stuff's gotta go. It's gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I know, I know it's it's it's interesting. So let's hop over to the podcast extra and talk about what do you do if this is happening to you? Because I know you and I are now not in situations in where we're dealing with it on a regular basis in our life, and I hope never to. That's one of my goals. I don't want to get in a car with somebody like that again, but but but I know that there are people who are really battling this, and so I'd love to hop over and have that kind of discussion. But thank you so much. This is it was a fascinating discussion.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Thanks, Carrie.