How Dangerous Predators Hide Sadism in Plain Sight - Joe Navarro, Former FBI Agent

The most dangerous narcissists don’t go ballistic: they peck you to death.

After spending decades studying dangerous personalities, former FBI agent Joe Navarro has learned that the cruelest narcissistic abuse almost never looks the way we expect.  It hides behind the withheld compliment, the public put-down disguised as a joke, the silent treatment and the affection that never comes.

In this conversation, Joe and Dr. Kerry McAvoy name the covert sadism living inside everyday relationships with a narcissist, and why it leaves lasting damage.

Podcast Extra Exclusive Segment

Want to go deeper? 

In this Members-Only Interview — Joe walks through the practical steps to breaking free. Learn exactly the first step on how to get started. Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here.

JOE NAVARRO, a former FBI agent and one of the world's foremost authorities on reading human behavior, has spent his life learning to spot dangerous people before the rest of us see them coming. Recruited into the FBI at just 23 — one of the youngest agents ever — Joe spent 25 years in counterintelligence and counterterrorism, catching spies by decoding the nonverbal signals most people miss, and went on to train both FBI agents and the wider intelligence community in the science he helped refine. Since retiring from the Bureau in 2003, he has become a sought-after speaker, consultant, and author — including the landmark Dangerous Personalities — helping people everywhere recognize the predators hiding in plain sight.

• Website
• Navarro Dangerous Personality Inventory

Latest Book:

• Mastering Connections, and the digital Navarro Dangerous Personality Inventory
• Dangerous Personalities: An FBI Profiler Shows You How to Identify and Protect Yourself from Harmful People

Resources

• The Complete Recovery Collection: Narcissistic abuse resources
• First Steps to Leaving: Online self-paced digital course
• Toxic-Free Relationship Club: Live coaching & community support

Follow Dr. Kerry!

• Youtube
• Instagram
• TikTok
• Facebook

Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., an author and educator, helps listeners decode toxic dynamics, recognize manipulation, and rebuild self-trust.

As an Amazon affiliate, commission is earned from qualifying purchases.

This podcast/video is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, counseling, or professional mental health advice, nor does listening create a doctor-patient or therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, please call 911 or contact the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by calling or texting 988 (US/Canada).

Transcript

How Dangerous Predators Hide Sadism in Plain Sight - Joe Navarro, Former FBI Agent

Joe Navarro: [00:00:00] We have this mental picture of sadistic behavior and we're imagining something from the Marquis de Sade. We're thinking about whips and chains and so forth, and it's not. Sadistic behavior of the narcissist is everything from tripping you up to making sure that you are made fun of when there are people present, an incessant need to constantly put you down, an incessant need to never allow you to feel whole.

People are getting tired

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Joe Navarro, I'm so excited that you're back on. In fact, your interview that we taped I think about a year, year and a half ago is one of the most popular videos that I've ever had, and I think it's because dangerous people surprise us. We often don't see them coming and even don't even recognize that maybe somebody in our life [00:01:00] is, is really dangerous.

I would love to hear more about maybe your first encounter with a really dangerous person, and did you realize this individual was toxic or a risk to you? 

Joe Navarro: Well, f- first of all, thanks. It's good to be back. It's good to see you and always, uh, great to be on your, uh, program. I, I think, uh, the, the first encounter I, I had with a really dangerous personalities, I, I was working at Richard's Department Store in, uh, in Hialeah, Florida, and a guy was, uh, robbing the store with a knife.

And, uh, I didn't know it, but, uh, the manager said, "Go stop him." And, um, and, uh, as the guy was running out of the store, I didn't see the knife and, uh, he lunged at me and, uh, and, uh, stabbed me twice. And I think that's the first time that I, I really sensed that there was a dangerous personality. And it's kind of interesting 'cause I almost lost my life, uh, uh, that day.

Ex- [00:02:00] There was a police officer that, that saved my life. But it made me realize that, um, you're only safe if there are safe people around you. It di- it didn't- Hmm ... matter where you were at. Uh, I was in a very nice area of town. It was an, a very nice, uh, store, uh, uh, full of people, full of shoppers, and, and yet all it takes is, um- is one person.

But, uh, you know, recently I've been, uh, I've been thinking about, uh, the, the hundreds... Actually, not even hundreds, the thousands of letters that I received after I wrote Dangerous Personalities, and I listened to what the people said, and something dawned on me, which is gonna be part of another book I'm, I'm gonna be working on for the, for the future, and that is I got over the stabbing.

That was, you know, it, I mean, it took me a while to heal my [00:03:00] body and, uh, and all that. But those individuals that are severely flawed of character and, and in particular those that are pathologically narcissistic and have traits of, uh, sadistic traits, the, uh, you know, the people that like to torment others and belittle others and so forth, um, I think that trauma lasts a lot longer than physical trauma.

Other than talking to you, I, I hardly ever talk to anybody about what happened to me when I was 17, and yet I have letters from people who after 30, 40, 50 years of being tormented by a parent or by an uncle or by a sibling or by a manager, decades on they're still tormented. They're suffering the effects of, uh, of these individuals.

And, uh, and I... So I think one of the great lessons that [00:04:00] I've learned is that the physical stuff i- is one thing, but how long the anguish lasts in those that have been exposed to the, these individuals It's, it's an unbelievable amount of time 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It is. In fact, I just, I went live yesterday and it was resonating.

It was about some of my experiences and why focusing on the abuser, why trying to unpack them and understand them doesn't necessarily lead to healing. It leads to waking up and realizing you're at risk, but it doesn't necessarily solve the, the gaps and the questions inside of yourself about the damage.

And I got a lot of outpouring of exactly the same thing, people telling these horrific stories of meeting terrible people that abused them for long periods of time. I think one of the things that it, it, it shocked me, especially when you encounter sadism, and you mentioned that, and, and my last partner I am convinced had a, a very profound, deep, sadistic streak in him, was that it [00:05:00] didn't show up as in the overt way like you would expect.

It was, it was more of a subtle like, um, got you kind of things. And, and that to me was, is puzzling because I expected it to be more blatant. Is that something that you've kind of seen across the board? 

Joe Navarro: Oh, definitely. And I, and I think that's the, uh, insidious nature of it is that w- well, first of all, we ex- we, we have this, uh, mental picture of sadistic behavior and we're imagining something from the Marquis de Sade- 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah

Joe Navarro: from whom the, the word, uh, comes from. And we're, w- we're, we're thinking about whips and chains a- and so forth, and it's not. The, the sadistic behavior of, of the narcissist is everything from tripping you up to making sure that you are made fun of when there are people present, uh, an incessant need to [00:06:00] constantly put you down, to an incessant need to never allow you to feel whole or wholesome or complete.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, they put so much energy into that, that, uh, it, it is part of, uh, uh, of this pathology. And, uh, you know, and I, and I think we- these things live with us for such a long time, uh, precisely because from an evolutionary, uh, perspective, as I've learned from, uh, Dr. Lieberman and Dr. David Givens, you know, our, our brains evolved to retain very negative things for a very long time for, for survival purposes so we didn't go back to that area where the lions existed.

And so the, the hippocampi, the hippocampus, we have two of them, [00:07:00] uh, retains these things for an extraordinary period of time and, and they stay with us. And so the beauty of the pain that the sadistic narcissist causes is that we relive that over and over and over again. Somebody stabs you like I was, that's a one-time affair.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm. 

Joe Navarro: These, these, these sadistic behaviors are relived over and over again, and they're just as painful, uh, when we dream about it or we think about it or we even see an image of that individual. It just, uh, it just affects us, uh, terribly, so yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. I kept questioning my own reality. I kept questioning, did he really mean to hurt me or did he not seem to know better?

I mean, I think that's the kindheartedness of a good-natured person is we give each other benefit of the doubt. But what it really hit in me was it caused both shame but [00:08:00] also humiliation, that that was that sort of the double sword that I got struck with. Because you're right, it was a public event- Right

and it made me feel inadequate at the same time. 

Joe Navarro: Oh, uh, uh, they're, uh, they thrive in, in punishing us in public. I remember, uh, uh, I won't name the individual, but he always had this... It, it was like he always wanted to stick his finger in my eye. And, uh, I was getting ready to, uh, go on stage and, and give a talk and, uh, I was, I was having, uh, episodes of, uh, anxiety and, um, panic attacks at the time.

And right before I go on he, he says, uh, "Try not to screw this up." And, uh, you know, a- and I... And as I'm walking, fortunately it was, you know, to, to get to the microphone was, took a while, and I was thinking about that the wh- the whole way. And I t- I said to myself, "I'm not gonna let this, [00:09:00]uh, get to, get to me."

But later I thought about it and, and I thought to myself, look at... And one of the things I, I tell victims, right? Because I don't really spend a lot of time with the bad guys. I spend time with the victims, and one of the things that I learned from talking to the, to the victims is that how much energy these in- these, uh, sadistic individuals spend focused on putting us down, on tripping us up, on making us look bad.

And I think that's one of the k- key traits. I think all of us, we could say something insensitive because we're humans and sometimes we're s- we say stupid things. But individuals that go out of their way to constantly torment us, that expenditure of energy has to be accounted for. Mm-hmm. We are a species that conserves energy, and anytime we, we expend it for, uh, for [00:10:00] evil or for bad or for antisocial behavior, that qualifies as a significant marker.

And what's interesting is if you look at the DSM and, a- and if you, uh, for those unfamiliar with it, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, if, if you look in there, the sadistic a- abuse is almost underplayed, and yet I can, I can go through the letters that I've received and analyze it for content, and I can pick out how the, the torment has been repeated over and over and, and over again, and that's expenditure of energy.

And, uh, a- and unfortunately, it's, uh, it's not often enough accounted for. And, and you're right. If, if we're kind, if we, if, if we were b- brought up with, with the Bible and religion and Judeo-Christian ethics and, and so forth, we, we tend to, you know, turn the other cheek [00:11:00] Um, which is fine for normal people, but not for anyone that is severely flawed of character.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You're so right. I was thinking back to graduate school and as I've worked through various renditions of the DSM, and there's almost no energy spent on sadism. I've never heard it in a pro- graduate school course. Not ever discussed. 

Joe Navarro: I didn't have the benefit of graduate school in, in psychology, but I did have the benefits of people like David Givens.

Uh, I had, uh, uh, Debra Lieberman. I had the benefit of a variety of instructors that, uh, would come in and teach us, uh, i- in the FBI. And Mark Mills out of, uh, Washington DC, and Reid Meloy, who was the head of the APA in, in California. He mentioned it, but you don't see it in the literature. And yet, you know, as you know from my writings, I always focus on what the [00:12:00] victims say because- Mm-hmm

it, it's such an interesting perspective, um, because they experience things differently, and it's always in there. There's always an indicator of the tormenting, the intentional tormenting, a- and that's, uh, that's sadistic behavior. And I think that should be a very big part of the experience. I mean, you know, obviously we always say, well, overvaluation of self, devaluation of others, okay?

That is the hallmark. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. 

Joe Navarro: But when you begin to go granular on that and break it down, and you begin to realize, oh, these other little behaviors that, that we're picking at are actually sadistic, uh, behaviors. And, and I'll tell you another thing. It- one of it has to do with language. In, in the English language, we actually don't have a very good word for the kind of constant, um, [00:13:00] tormenting.

It comes close, but there are other language. For instance, in Spanish, there's a wonderful word, and it comes from the Latin, and it is mortificar, right? And it-- what it means is it's, it's like I'm being pecked to death. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm.

Joe Navarro: It-- I am being pecked to d- we don't have that word, and I wish we had it in the English language because when I talk to victims, I said, "You know, you realize you were being pecked to death.

The-- they weren't providing anything nurturing to you." There's nothing nurturing in sadistic behavior. And, uh, whether it's physical, emotional, mental, uh, or, or even, uh, with, uh, finances, they are picking you apart. And I wish we had a word that encompasses that because that is the net effect on, on the victims of, uh, of narcissistic abuse.

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It is. And we mistaken [00:14:00] it. I know I did. It wasn't until I got a lot of distance from my story that I could see that there was this wearing down. I often think of it like the water drip torture that's wearing down on me from publicly embarrassing, creating deliberately embarrassing moments for me to criticizing me to even injuring me accidentally.

It, it, it was just this big picture of, like you said, there was no nurturance. I didn't realize that 'cause I wasn't paying attention to that part of the relationship. I was trying to sur- survive it. But now looking back, I mean, like, yeah, this person was literally, you're right, pecking me to death. So let's talk about what are some of the sadistic behaviors that are maybe more commonly occurring, maybe even happening in public that we, we miss.

We don't recognize it as sadism. 

Joe Navarro: Let's start with the simple things, which may be the, the words that are used to describe you. It is so hard [00:15:00] for me to even say these words, but, uh, something, uh, uh, as, uh, disdainful as calling you my bitch. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Ugh. 

Joe Navarro: Now, uh, in, in, in certain cultures, that's, that's almost acceptable.

Hey, well, sorry, mate. I'm sorry. I don't accept it in any culture. The fact that we begin to denigrate by the use of terms or the tone of voice instead of asking you to come here, telling you to come here. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm. 

Joe Navarro: If, if you, if you begin to break down the, the behaviors, the, the practices, you begin to see that I am not being treated as an equal I am not being asked, I am being told.

I am being commanded. I am being, um, um, exposed publicly. I remember when I was a teenager I, I had acne and, uh, this guy who just used to love tor- to torment everybody who had [00:16:00] anything, you know, would say, "Hey, pizza face." 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, yeah, yeah. "

Joe Navarro: Uh, come here." Th- this sort of thing. And you, you sort of dismiss it as, "Well, that's bully stuff."

No, that's sadistic stuff. Yeah. We just, we just didn't have anybody that told us the truth. Uh, we didn't put it in the right box. Um, and some of the behaviors can be as simple as a f- failure to give you a hug when you actually really, really could use a hug, failure to be empathetic, failure to recognize you even when you walk into the room, things like that.

Like you are no more than a piece of lint floating across the, the, the ether. And after a while... I mean, I had this woman who wrote me. She read the book, she wrote me, and she said, "I bet I could go three days and, you know, he would just not say anything to me. And [00:17:00] yet when he got on the phone he was with his buddies and, and so forth."

And there's this social erosion that takes place where they make you smaller. Yeah. Uh, they make you insecure. They make you feel unequal. And so w- what I say is because there's so many behaviors is first and foremost listen to how you're feeling. Listen to your gut. Um, you know, as you know now, as we all know n- well, not all, but we have neurons that innervate, uh, our stomachs.

Our enteric system- 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah ... 

Joe Navarro: communicates, and if, if it's communicating that, uh, we're not equals here, um, I'm, I'm being, uh, destroyed one little bit at a time, p- pay attention to your gut. Our enteric system is innervated- Yeah ... our heart, our stomach- Yeah ... our, our, our gut. Yeah. And so those gut feelings we get through the vagus system communicate very honest [00:18:00] feelings that something's not right.

Yeah, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: yeah. I'm thinking of a flashback to a moment. There was a moment where we were out getting dressed, going out to someplace nice. We were at a, a really nice hotel and taking this trip, special trip, and I dressed up, he dressed up, and I remember stepping out and waiting for the comment. And I, by the way, had been in another marriage and my late husband would have said, "Oh, you look so lovely tonight."

He would have known that was a invitation to make a comment. In fact, I think I said, "You look really great tonight," and I'm thinking I'm gonna reciprocal comment. And there was silence. And I thought- That's purposeful. There was something inside me that resonated- Yeah ... that was an intentional injury to me.

But when that happens, we wanna say, "Oh, I'm being sensitive," you know? Yeah. I, I'm wanting too much. I'm making too big of this. And when you said that, it was like I, I registered something, and it was r- a real thing that I registered. You're right. It was in s- response to what was hap- It wasn't just what was happening inside.

It wasn't insecurity of [00:19:00] me. Yeah, there's moments where I'm insecure, like, oh, I wonder if this dress fits right or if I look okay. Right. But this was a moment where I actually knew I'd done well, and I felt good about myself, and there was normally a social exchange that we do, and I could feel it missing, and I could feel it was intentional.

It registered. But I dismissed it, like, eh, I don't think he really meant that. 

Joe Navarro: Ver- very much so. If I can, because this is, what you just said is, is actually in my new book. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm.

Joe Navarro: So, uh, uh, it just came out yesterday. It, it's called, uh, Mastering Connections. And in there, there's a whole section on the behaviors that are used to unhinge good connections, right?

Mm. So good connections was, yeah, your, your former, uh, spouse would say, uh, "Oh, thank you. I, I love your outfit too," right? And you begin to see that, uh, the unhinging of [00:20:00] connections is lack of reciprocity, right? Lack of synchrony. You say something, I say something. Lack of harmony. You say something, I'm gonna counter whatever you say.

Oh, the sky is blue? Mm. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's, it's, it's, it's gray. And, and so these behaviors that in a, in a normal, healthy relationship contribute to harmony, to connecting, the flawed of character creates situations that try to unhinge, but then they blame you- 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah ... 

Joe Navarro: for the unhinging, when all the time it is the, you know, their behaviors that didn't contribute to harmony, that didn't contribute to synchrony, that didn't contribute pro-socially.

But they always point the finger at you. And the thing is, [00:21:00] is that I used to think, well, if you could just list all the behaviors, well, there's just not enough bandwidth for that. I think what we have to do is really, uh, uh, do the things that have worked, and that, number one, is listen to your gut And then i- i- if that's not working for you and it's not telling you of certain things, ask your friends.

Uh, and it, and it's interesting to see how many people will later s- say, "Well, my f- my friends told me so-and-so was not right." Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and so they had a, a, a, a sense, uh, for it. But the other thing is to, you know, do a, a, a check and say, "Am I happier with this person? Am I more miserable? Am, am I losing sleep?

Am I causing... You know, am I worrying?" And if you have all these, uh, uh, things going on, then the question, uh, is, do you [00:22:00] have a good assessment of this person, or are you letting things like religion and marriage and, uh, family harmony and things overwhelm you in your ability to actually have clarity? 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.

That was certainly true for me. Very much so. A- as I was listening there, I realized something. I think psychology sometimes worsens the situation, because what we will do in that situation is we'll attempt to understand the individual who's, you know, I'm thinking of Gottman's research on emotional bids.

We'll attempt to understand why does that person not respond in a positive way when there is a bid for connection, and we'll say, "Oh, because they have trauma," or because they've had this core wound. But what we're doing is we're assuming there's an inadequacy or an insecurity, and when really sometimes this is not about that at all.

Sometimes the intentionality is the pleasure of it, and we don't look at that side, that there are people who actually derive satisfaction from d- from the [00:23:00] disharmony. 

Joe Navarro: A- absolutely. Go, go to any, uh, high school and say, "Pick out who the bullies are." Mm-hmm. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And it's like, yeah, they derive pleasure on it.

Years ago, I was, I was being, uh, interviewed on a TV show after the Vegas, uh, shooting and, uh, I was asked, uh, by the, by the c- commentator, "Why do you think, Mr. Navarro, the guy shot 56 people in Las Vegas?" And I said, "From everything I've learned from, uh, psychopaths and antisocial personalities and, uh, the malignant narcissists, it's because they can."

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I knew you were gonna say that. It's because they could. 

Joe Navarro: It, it is because they could. Yeah. And, you know, and I tell people, you know, w- when somebody has a knife to your neck, do you care if they're a psychopath or, or they're a sociopath, or are they this personality? Y- y- you don't care. That's good for researchers, and maybe it's good for, [00:24:00] for, for psychology.

But I have to tell you, I think people are getting tired of trying to understand the, the why. I know people that have gone through so much hell in their life, and they're pretty nice to other people. And I always side with the victims because you're talking, uh, you know, if you're a malignant narcissist, you're gonna sleep well.

Things aren't gonna bother you. But people that are losing sleep, spending money, um Considering suicide. Uh, I, I knew a guy, highly successful, wonderful man, but he was, he was married to a, uh, an, an individual, a borderline personality, up and down, everything was walking on eggshells, and he was contemplating suicide.

And, uh, I don't wanna say I, I wanna laugh at it, but when you think about it, he contacted me, uh, 'cause he lived in the neighborhood, and he wanted to [00:25:00] know about what was the surest way of, of, of doing this. Oh. And I said, "Whoa, buddy. Whoa, whoa-" Oh ... "whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. There are an infinite amount of options available to you, and this is not one of them."

And, and fortunately, um, we got him some help. We got him, um, uh, stabilized, living somewhere else for a while, and then, uh, resolving that issue. But when somebody's tormenting you to, to that d- that point, I side with the victims, uh- Yeah ... uh, always. You know, there may be reasons for why people behave that way, and they may be of, uh, what I call archaeological value, but I know of one person who every day that they go to work, they have panic attacks, all because of one person, uh, in management.

I, uh, I... Who cares what's causing this? Yeah. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: There is a inventory that I took recently about that [00:26:00] last relationship, and r- he never called me a bad name. He never physically struck me. But when I took that inventory, there was brainwashing with terror. I felt real terror. And, and I d- was getting to the place of, and it wasn't actively suicidal, but I was thinking, "It would be okay if I died.

At least it was an out. At least it ended." And I think that that's where people get really trapped. So what I'd love to do is jump over to the podcast extra and talk about if people are identifying themselves, saying, you know, "Mr. Navarro, that's exactly what my life is like. I am feeling pecked to death, and I don't know what the next steps are," let's talk about what you see as the next steps.

But where can people find out more about you and your work? And I'm so excited to hear there's a new book that you're working on. That's amazing. So yeah, where can we find out more about you? 

Joe Navarro: Yeah. Just, uh, uh, you can Google my name, uh, but you can go to joenavarro.net. It takes you to my website, and, uh, and everything is there, my books.

And, and actually, I, I now have, in digital [00:27:00] format, uh, it's called the Navarro Dangerous Personality Inventory- Oh, 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: fantastic ... 

Joe Navarro: where we, we basically took the inventory that I had in my books, but we digitized it, and then we updated it with new information so that we have more on sadistic behavior. We have more on how culture affects certain things.

Um, and, uh, uh, we brought that out a few weeks ago, um, because if you're on a train, maybe you don't have, or on a plane, you don't have time to be reading a book or so forth. But if you can just do a quick inventory and it, and it's, uh, easier to conceal, which was one of the biggest factors is how to hide this from somebody who may...

You know, if you have a book that's called Dangerous Personalities and you live with a dangerous personality- Yeah ... uh, that could actually harm you. But- Yeah, it could ... but by having something on, uh, on the phone. So that's, uh, uh, that's available, uh, to you. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's wonderful. I'm really thrilled to hear that.

Thank you [00:28:00] so much for being on the show today. This was a really interesting conversation. I think something we need to talk much more about. I appreciate this. 

Joe Navarro: Yeah, my pleasure. 

Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over, and you're wondering to yourself, "Was it really that bad, or maybe I'm just being dramatic?"

So you start to draft that I'm sorry text again because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable. And you know this loop because you've been there before, but I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist, and for 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.

Here's the truth. Recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a private, always available coaching app built from my work and [00:29:00] my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered.

Inside it, you'll get five-minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive, check-ins that meet you exactly where you are, whether you're feeling strong, shattered, or numb, boundary scripts that help you say no without overexplaining, grounding tools that work fast when you're activated, and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even on days when it feels like you're not.

There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment, just practical support right when you need it. Reclaim You, real help in real time right in your pocket, and it's a coaching support, not therapy or emergency care. Learn more at studio.com/drkerry. So start your healing today and reclaim you.