The Real Reason Narcissists Make Food About Control

Food is the most primal human need — and narcissists know it. The demands that ruin a vacation. The meal that is never made right. The praise given once, then withheld forever. These are calculated moves in a much larger control strategy.

In this conversation, Dr. Kerry McAvoy and co-host Lynn S. decode the psychology behind narcissistic food control: why it is never actually about the food, how narcissists exploit your deepest vulnerabilities through something as basic as sustenance, and why recognizing this pattern is the first step toward disengaging from a dynamic designed to make you feel perpetually inadequate.

Podcast Extra Exclusive Segment

Want to go deeper? In this Members-Only episode — Lynn and Dr. Kerry unpack what happens after the recognition and why healing from food-based control takes longer than most expect.

Find the exclusive second segment and weekly newsletter here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

LYNN STRATHDEE is a UK-based psychodynamic psychotherapist specializing in echoism, narcissistic abuse recovery, and the unconscious patterns that keep survivors stuck in repeating relationship cycles. A former educator turned therapist, Lynn brings both clinical training and lived experience to her private practice, where she works with clients online and in person. Her approach goes beyond surface-level psychoeducation to the deeper identity work that creates lasting change.

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Transcript

The Real Reason Narcissists Make Food About Control

Lynn Strathdee: [00:00:00] Kind of makes food one of the go-tos because it's such a perfect stage. Anything around giving, receiving, reciprocity, nourishment, need, all the elements are there for that to become like the perfect thing, even if it wasn't. 

Dr. Kerry: Look how special I am. Look how inadequate you are to make me feel this special

We know that narcissists do a lot of strange things, and one of the weirdest ones that I had noticed, and I guess maybe it's not the weirdest 'cause there was a lot of weird moments in this relationship, but it was around food. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And it happened right away, in which my ex loved to tell me that he had this favorite dish and that his mother would prepare it when he would come to visit her, and he would brag about it.

I, I actually wasn't impressed because it had-- never heard of it, first of all, but it had items in it that I can't stand. 

Lynn Strathdee: What was it? 

Dr. Kerry: It was, um, I can't remember all the w- it was in it. I think it was chicken, but what, what stood out was what I didn't like, and it [00:01:00] was green olives. Oh. I can't stand green olives.

But it was this kind of like con- like one-skillet concoction- Mm-hmm ... that got made, and he just would rave about how much he loved that his mother would make this dish. And when he visited, sure enough, she would make it, and he wouldn't even ask for it. She would just make it for him, and then he would look at me with that look of like-- almost reminded me of that poem where it says, uh, "Little Jack Horner sat in the corner, eating his pump- pumpkin-" Yeah.

Was it pumpkin pie or- Mm-hmm ... was it plum pie? He pulled in a thumb, pulled out a plum, and said, "Oh, what a lucky boy am I." Mm. And I thought he had that look, that look of like, "Oh, look how special I am." 

Lynn Strathdee: Uh-huh. "

Dr. Kerry: See? She remembered. She made this dish for me." And I just thought, "Jeez." And i- it's interesting because I knew when I came home from college, my mom sometimes would make-- my mom, by the way, didn't enjoy cooking, so it was a huge chore to her, not a labor of love.

But sometimes she'd make sure that something I really enjoyed would be there, but not always. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't something I looked for. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm. 

Dr. Kerry: Um, but so I, I, but I remember feeling like he wanted [00:02:00] me to be jealous. That was the sense I had, that he wanted me to-- there was a point he was making by telling this story, and I, I just found it odd.

And that was one of many things in which he just sort of tried to show me how special he was and show me how loved, I think even more that, how loved he was. 

Lynn Strathdee: I think food is such a, an example of that, isn't it? People show their love and affection, well, many of them do, through food. And I wonder, did he also know about what you didn't get, and he was kind of- Tapping into that 

Dr. Kerry: Maybe 

Lynn Strathdee: Food?

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I, when I met him, I was not savvy to this whole lay of the land. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And I was not aware how incredibly astute they are to identifying our unmet needs and our biggest pain points. And yeah, I would say probably one of mine is, is I heard a lot as a kid, "You're to be seen and not heard" 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm

Dr. Kerry: which is a, in a way, sort of the [00:03:00] opposite angle of this dynamic is you're invisible. You're to be invisible in this room. You're not to be a pr- where he's saying, "Look, I'm visible. She goes out and she makes a special dish for me." Where I was, what was success in my home was to be a child who was obedient, uh, dutiful, compliant, and quiet.

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry: And, and I was to know my place. And so I, yeah. But, but here's the other thing is when I go back and look at the early stages of that relationship, I wrote him reams of letters. I gave him the playbook to Kerry. I, I, yeah, so it wouldn't have been very hard for him to, to extrapolated some of these things based upon...

I may not have told that story. I don't, I'm sure I never shared that saying I was being seen and not heard. I, I, I know I never told him that, but I wouldn't be surprised if he picked up some of that. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah. Absolutely, and then if we add into that, like all the cultural stuff that, and I'm sure it's not exclusive to women, but certainly it's massively women heavy, is all of the pressure around food and expressions of hunger, [00:04:00] expressions of need You know, we have such a, a shame around it anyway culturally that there's already that working in the favor of someone who wants to control and dominate because that's kind of already in the psyche, isn't it?

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, that's fascinating and I s- food also then ties into body image as well is because what you eat is, will, uh, ve- very much directly affect, uh, what kind of shape you're gonna be in. It, it, he had odd eating behaviors, though. Mm-hmm. I mean, he, he had indulgences that were very specific and required. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Kerry: Uh, one of them was Japanese peanuts. I don't know if you've ever even heard of them before. I think they're peanuts, I think, and it, they're in- they're very prevalent in Mexico. Okay. You can go in and buy them off the shelf, and they, they reminded me of a bit, a cross between baked soybean and peanuts.

Okay. It, it doesn't taste exactly like a peanut, but it's similar. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Same kind of crunch, but he had to have them every night. I mean, it was just sort of a... And then a specific type of popcorn. Mm-hmm. There had to be a s- [00:05:00] specific brand, micro- I mean, to the point that he actually ruined a day of our honeymoon looking for that popcorn on a Caribbean island, which didn't have it, by the way.

He spent all sorts of taxi money looking for that popcorn. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah. It's, it's crazy because you kind of wonder how much of that is about the peanuts and how much of it is about just having to be demanding and finding reasons- Hmm ... to, do you know what I mean, like make- I do ... demands on the environment to sort of serve you or service you in some way, you know?

Dr. Kerry: I also think it's a, a reflection. I, 'cause I don't, I don't think all types of Cluster B personality do this. Mm. I, I really don't s- I wouldn't say this is a th- something I've seen across the board, but I do think that it's more common in those with low impulse control, that they lead with their senses.

They're very hedonistic. I want what I want when I want it, and that's what it felt like to me. He was willing to disrupt and create chaos, not only because it gave him [00:06:00] control, and I think that certainly was also just to look, say, "Look, I'm dominant. I run the show here," but I also think it was a, an exercise of his saying, "I'm unhappy and I need this to fill some need of mine, some void that I, and I want this specific thing."

I mean, he would stop the whole show to go get these items. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think some of it emerges, like you were talking about different types of abuser, I think it also emerges within the context of the relationship over time, so what might start out as not being an issue for that particular- abuser becomes one because of the impact that it has on the partner- Mm-hmm

if that makes any sense. So it's- It does ... not something that would've been there at the beginning, but because it brings certain emotional responses, it becomes something that then gets kind of weaponized. 'Cause I think so much of this is only any good in terms of manipulation or control or dominance because of the impact that it has, the emotional, psychological impact that [00:07:00] it has on the partner and the necessary kind of adaptations that they absolutely have to make.

I think it kind of makes food one of the go-tos because it's such a perfect stage, isn't it? Anything around giving, receiving, reciprocity, nourishment, need, that- Yeah ... it's got like all the elements are there for that to become like the perfect thing, even if it wasn't maybe at the start. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, I agree, I agree.

The other thing he did is he told a story about how his mother, when his father would come home, who was gone a lot, so he'd be gone for maybe weeks at a time. He'd come home, and mind you, this is a family, has been living on a budget that he had, if I'm to believe my ex, which everything in my opinion is, that's a question mark.

But I don't know why he would lie about this, and I also met her and she confirmed some of the story, so I know that he was accurate about some of this. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And this to me, th- there was no benefit in him lying on this story, but the story was his father would leave a certain amount of money. I could see that.

That sounds like a typical controlling person would do that. [00:08:00] To me it's believable. But it wasn't enough to feed a family of six or s- family of seven. They would run out and by the end of the stay, whether it was a week or two weeks, they would be eating fish soup that had been watered down because there was nothing left.

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And he would not eat ... That's a common thing. They would serve this as sort of like almost like a appetite teaser at, in some nicer restaurants, and he wouldn't eat it because he said, "Listen, I, that to me is a massive trigger- Okay ... and I, I hate it. I won't eat it." Mm-hmm. And I can understand based upon the story that- Mm

that fit. Mm. But he would describe, so here his father would come home and insist with the new fresh influx of money that he brought with him, that he had to have his wife make homemade flour, not corn, tortillas which made them by hand, which only father could eat. They weren't for the family. 

Lynn Strathdee: Right. 

Dr. Kerry: And so what I found later on in w- when, uh, the relationship was breaking up and I was finding more evidence of what had been happening behind my back, is the girlfriend, the [00:09:00]mistress that he had, would send him pictures of her making him homemade tortillas, flour tortillas.

Lynn Strathdee: So it was kind of like a measure of love- Femininity- Yes ... affection, devotion- I'm being 

Dr. Kerry: served ...

Lynn Strathdee: obedience. Like- Yes ... tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. I'm the special, I'm the king who comes home. I get now the royal meal made by the, the, the sweat of my partner's brow. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry: You know? It, it felt very dominant, but also there was, I think there's also a coercive, I think it was his requirement of what this is what love looks like.

It's by the sweat of your brow. It's by the denial of others for the sake of me. I mean, there's a lot that you can look into that that to me that we made it at a very sad story for that family that he's now replicating- Yeah ... in his own life. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you said coercive, because I think what's so difficult for so many survivors is that we, well I speak for [00:10:00] myself, we catch ourselves kind of playing along with that dynamic.

Because when someone makes you feel like, "Oh my God, you're so amazing. You just made me tortillas from scratch," you know, because at the beginning, beginning of the relationship, that's what it's like, isn't it? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Lynn Strathdee: Like, "Oh my God, no one's ever done that for me. No one's ever made me tortillas from scratch.

You are the most amazing woman in the world." That becomes like the bar that's set, and certainly catch ourselves kind of d- going along with that to make sure that we maintain that bar. But then of course, because it is the perfect setting for intermittent reinforcement, the next time you make the tortillas, the reaction is a bit less than, you know what I mean?

Like, "Mm." 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. "

Lynn Strathdee: They weren't so good this time, but they were okay." And internally, before you know it, there's this whole anxiety around getting it right, doing it like the first time where they were perfect- 

Dr. Kerry: Uh-huh ...

Lynn Strathdee: and all of that kind of shenanigans that you start doing [00:11:00] totally without really consciously thinking about it.

Dr. Kerry: And you're inadvertently, because of the story that's been shared, also competing with the story, the legend. 'Cause it is sort of the legend, you know? And in fact, I can imagine him, if, if I was to... I never attempted to do that, by the way. Never made them. I don't even know how to make them. 

Lynn Strathdee: Nope.

Dr. Kerry: Um, I- I've 

Lynn Strathdee: never made a cookie dough in my life, just so you 

Dr. Kerry: know I know.

To me, I quickly said, "I'm not cooking. That's just not something I'm gonna be doing here." I made a pizza. That was my op- That was my opt-out, by the way. Yeah. I just, I wouldn't engage. Yeah. I did a little bit, and it did t- it got weaponized really fast and very, very nasty, and, and I learned. That's why I'm...

That's, that was smart to have opt out, that I'd sensed that this was a landmine. I just didn't really wanna try to navigate that complex field. But I can imagine that if I made them, or if she makes them, he would say, "Not quite my mom's- Mm-hmm ... or close to my mom's." 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Bringing in this legend story- Mm-hmm

that he's created. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Kerry: So did you experience something similar around any of this with [00:12:00] any of the relationships you've been in? 

Lynn Strathdee: I have definitely experienced a lot of mealtimes being a way where it was kind of like regulation of the relationship, or an opportunity to sort of show something, to sort of impress or to please, and a real sense of disappointment.

I had one partner who it wouldn't make any difference what effort I made There was no comment, there was no appreciation, there was no... Yeah, there was just nothing coming back at all, which I, I, I'm sure you'll get partly is problematic because then you start to feel like, "Well, maybe I should- maybe I'm just being, you know, egotistical for wanting anything."

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Lynn Strathdee: But one, I think, pretty narcissistic partner that I had many years later was always in a kind of competition around food. Food was definitely something where there was a kind of looking at what you've got, looking at what I've got, who's got more, are you [00:13:00] gonna eat that? Oh, you've eaten that really quickly.

And lots of comment about me- Mm ... having an appetite, being hungry. Lots of kind of ostentatious consumption of food, and almost in a kind of, I don't know, in a sort of gloating way. Really, really possessive around food, and I'd never, ever experienced anything like that before, and it reminded me of your story about Little Jack Horner.

There was a little- Mm-hmm ... kind of na-na, na-na-na, I've got this- Mm ... you haven't got it sort of thing. Very, very kind of juvenile.

Dr. Kerry: Right. I was thinking of the root of jealousy. Yeah. That that's a, that's the... It's just being pervasive through that of I'm special 'cause I'm favored if I have it, but I'm also competing with everyone around me to make sure nobody else comes ahead- 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah

Dr. Kerry: of me. 

Lynn Strathdee: Exactly. Yeah. And I think food, particularly for very narcissistic mothers and their sons, I think food is a real kind of, um, well, you talked about it, you know, that kind of favoring and [00:14:00] making sure that there's an indulgence and a sense of you have whatever you want, it's fine. But I think the most painful that I experienced was, was in being asked to make things specifically because I think the person enjoyed me going to a lot of effort, and then kind of either being sort of disgruntled by it, not, not happy about it.

I found that really, really devastating 'cause I think at that point I'd started to realize that this was intentional, like it was being kind of set a task just to do it and- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It almost sounds sadistic. Do you think there's some sadism behind it? 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, probably. Probably, yeah. I found that really upsetting.

Like I said, I think the whole idea of food, it's the most basic human need- And it's one of the things that I think is so easily a battleground or a stage for abusive dynamics 'cause there's so much emotion and it carries [00:15:00] so much weight- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah ... 

Lynn Strathdee: for both people. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, I'm thinking back to infancy. I mean, it's the first, it's the first way outside of the mother that the child's sustained.

And we don't talk about this. I d- I, I never have heard conversations, but when the baby and you are, especially if you're nursing, but even with a bottle, it's all about the right kind of nipple and the right kind of flow. There's a, there's a process that happens between you and the infant. Mm-hmm. You're either drowning them, or, or you're, are frustrating them because it's not fast enough, or they refuse outright.

So there's kinda like three alternatives that I'm thinking off the top of my head that happens in these relationships. Mm-hmm. So one is sort of this kind of this overwhelm, enmeshed, suffocating experience. The other is just rigid refusal to participate, and then the, the third is just that it's a frustrate- you, that you're not competent enough.

You're not satisfying enough. And I see that play out in these relationships. It's like that dynamic never really got solved well. [00:16:00]

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And they're still managing it as if it's happening today with a- between adults. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm, yeah. '

Dr. Kerry: Cause I'm thinking of another thing that he did right away when the second date with him, and it irritated me, and I'll tell you, it's now something I don't want anyone ever doing to me, um, I found it so invasive, and that is he'd want to feed me food.

And I don't want somebody, like, having me open my mouth and try to feed me food. 

Lynn Strathdee: Oh, it's like what you... Like in the movies where they- 

Dr. Kerry: Yes ... 

Lynn Strathdee: do that sort of- Yeah ... 

Dr. Kerry: yeah. Exactly. Which is partly- Mm ... probably why he did it, was because he watched it and thought- Had, like, an image in his mind ... "Oh, that looks so romantic," which really, I'll tell you, it's not, I- as a person receiving it, it doesn't feel...

I mean, first of all, I'm af- worried you're gonna spill it on me. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: I don't know how hot it is. It may be too big and I can't... You know, again, all the things I just laid out around the infant's battle with milk is the experience I had with this, the effort to try to feed me food. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And yet, it, but, but you think about it, this is, again, the food becomes the, the object of control.

At the same time, it's [00:17:00] also the source of sustenance. It's a very complex dynamic. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, it really, it really is complex, and I think what happens is that a lot of us kind of dissociate, and I don't mean, like, literally dissociate as in we're sort of out of our bodies, but I think we detach... I, I certainly detached from physical needs completely.

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Lynn Strathdee: Because there's so much conflict and tension and stress that you kind of just go, like, a bit like the mother who, with the baby who will not, who cannot be pleased, bec- who can't be- Yeah ... satisfied or fed in the right way, not pleased, but you know what I mean, who can't be- Yeah ... settled. You kind of have to go, "Okay, right, I'm not gonna keep feeling this.

We're just gonna do it. We'll just go through the motions," and I think there's so much dissociation to body, appetite, hunger, literally hunger, or conversely, there can be a kind of- Coping through eating to try and get some of the [00:18:00] emotional sustenance, well, the physical, at least, sustenance to make up for the lack of the emotional.

You know- Oh, I agree ... I think it could go either way. I 

Dr. Kerry: agree. Yeah, yeah. That was like, when you said that, I was just like, "Oh, jeez." You're right, because really if you look back to all our stories, what we've shared so far, what we've been sharing is, is this, this they don't mean it to be hostile, but there's a thread of hostility in it.

That's what I f- you sense this kinda angry, gloating, or, or not good enough message that's threaded through this of, "Look how special I am. Look how inadequate you are to make me feel this special the way that I'm can do for myself, or my mother, or some other per- perfect idealized person can do for me." D- it, it creates this sense of you're an inadequate source of connection, and yet they hold out the hope, almost like put the bar out there, that you think you could somehow try to get over it so that you can be successful and feel good.

Mm-hmm. Here's a perfect example how it happened. Like I said, I rarely cooked, but one of the dishes that [00:19:00] I, I personally love a lot is my homemade lasagna. And it's not that hard. I don't go to the whole effort of making homemade sauce and homemade noodles, but I do put it together, and I, I, I like the way that I put it together.

So anyway, I had made it once for him, and it was fine. Nobody commented a lot, but I planned to do it again with his mom h- there when she was living with us, and they had just come home from, uh, seeing a doctor, and I had it getting out of the oven, and she let me know that n- they had already brought in oth- they knew I was making this, by the way.

This was a text conversation, and it was understood, so I was timing it correctly so when they got in we could eat. And she a- announced at the doorway as they walked in that they wouldn't be eating it. They had other plans. 

Lynn Strathdee: Wow. 

Dr. Kerry: As I'm pulling the hot, uh, lasagna out of the oven. 

Lynn Strathdee: What, did they give any reason for that?

Dr. Kerry: There were no reason, and I could tell she was pleased. She's pleased at letting me go, just like you, you shared, you know, going to all those efforts for nothing, that she's pleased to let me know that I was no better than the house servant, or [00:20:00] less than, and they had just changed their mind. 

Lynn Strathdee: And that was his mum.

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Lynn Strathdee: Which, I don't know, feels like h- he'll eat my food, he won't eat your food, or I won't eat your food. He might, but I won't. Yeah. There's a, that competitive thing going on. 

Dr. Kerry: Yes. In fact, here's another thing she started to do. We got a juicer. It came with one of the properties that we bought happened to have furniture in it, and in- and we turned it into a vacation rental, and so we took the furniture and stuff out of it that was didn't belong for guests, and one of them was a really nice juicer, really, really upscale juicer.

And I'm not a big juice person- Mm ... um, but he loved his green juice, loved it, and she started making it for him in the morning, and only enough for him. And then let me know that she was making juice for him every morning. And in fact, one day I think I did something and didn't quite clean it up right, and she chewed me out via through him that I didn't do a good job cleaning that juicer, when I thought, I said, I felt like, "It belongs to me, and if I wanna damage it- Wow

I [00:21:00] will," you know? 

Lynn Strathdee: Wow. "

Dr. Kerry: You didn't pay for it. It isn't yours. Who cares?" You know, so. How 

Lynn Strathdee: horrible. Yeah. Did you say anything? 

Dr. Kerry: Did I say anything? 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, about the juicer. 

Dr. Kerry: No, I def- well, I didn't speak Spanish that fluently, so- 

Lynn Strathdee: Okay ... 

Dr. Kerry: I couldn't have. But I, I, um, but I knew, I knew it was a way to hurt me, and I just refused to play the game, so I just refused to care.

Um, she was really trying to stir f- problems up. He, but he, but he was, you know ... I keep, I, you know, it's interesting 'cause w- him and her had issues, although they didn't play that out in front of me. I just knew privately, he shared that he had issues with her. Uh-huh. But she was actively trying to create problems near that l- later part of our marriage, and, uh, it, it was, it got pretty ugly.

So, I, but I, my, my stance was, "No, her issue is not with me." That's, I would, that's what I would say to him, "Her issue's not with me, it's with you." Mm-hmm. "I'm not involved with this. I have nothing to do with this. I don't even talk to her. Her issue's with you." 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, yeah. So I just- I wonder how frustrated he might have been at the fact [00:22:00] that you weren't playing the game in terms of food specifically.

You know what I mean? That you- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah ... 

Lynn Strathdee: for some reason you'd seen early enough that this was gonna be, like, a hot potato And you just weren't gonna get into that arena. I wonder what that meant in terms of what did he, uh, then have to do? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, I, in fact, I just sat with my members in the Toxic Free Relationship club and we were talking of power and control last night.

Lynn Strathdee: Mm. 

Dr. Kerry: And, and from the, the standpoint of this is a pattern. This isn't specific to you. This is a pattern they run out for everybody- Mm-hmm ... and, uh, they all do the same thing. Mm-hmm. The research has borne that out. I mean, there was, uh, I was just sharing with you before we went on air that Dena Macmillan did this massive study of predatory behavior and found out that it didn't matter by, based on age, gender, ethnicity, race, you know, which country.

It didn't matter, that the playbook is always the same. And so it's interesting that sometimes I could pick up the playbook being implemented, and there are times that I couldn't. And- [00:23:00] Mm-hmm ... for some reason, when somebody starts to tout to me how special they have it and how wonderful it is, and sort of just sort of this gloating, you know, special behavior, it so turns me off- Mm-hmm

that I just back away and I'm disinterested. I don't engage in it. Mm-hmm. So thankfully, this was where this was happening, and it just- Yeah ... wasn't a big trigger. Yeah. But yet, if you look at other places, like the way he treated me around buying clothes or, you know, other, yeah, uh, or even around our sexual intimacy, you know, I was deeply invested and it d- it really, really hurt.

But this was one I just, I wouldn't engage. I di- I didn't care. I was completely di- it wasn't even I was, I was detached. Mm-hmm. Just wasn't I was dissociating, I just really didn't care. Thought it was silliness to 

Lynn Strathdee: me. But that's a really good point 'cause I, I never thought of that, like the fact that at some level the other things you did have an urge, at some part of you wanted to heal something or, you know, the whole repetition thing.

Yeah. There was some part of you with a [00:24:00] vested interest in getting something right. Yes. But with food, you couldn't have, you couldn't care less. Right. It just wasn't something that you had this- Urge to... Do you know what I mean? To like- I do know ... feel something in yourself about 

Dr. Kerry: it. No. Yeah, and it's interesting 'cause I, I, you know, you and I didn't even talk about our food history, but mine is that I started cooking for my family when I was really young.

You know, I lived on a working farm. My f- mother worked outside the home, was gone. We had hired hands on the farm who needed to be fed during the middle of the day. Our biggest meal was not lunch, it was called dinner. Was w- lunch was dinner, and dinner- Yeah ... was supper. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry: So we had dinner at midday. It was a big deal, and I tended to be cooking it.

So here I am, a middle schooler, and I'm making... Now, I'm not talking it was complicated. It was, like, often Hamburger Helper and stuff like that, but, but I'm feeding a table full of people with Hamburger Helper or whatever else that it was. 

Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: And I, I don't know. Food can be a love language for me, but it also is just a part of work.

It's just- And I don't have a lot of emotional investment in it. 

Lynn Strathdee: You [00:25:00] eat to live. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Lynn Strathdee: And that sounds very much about eating to live, like we're, we, we're eating because we have to survive, and that's it. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. We're hungry. It's cold out. We're working hard. We gotta get back out. You want something quick and nourishing that's filling, so that was the big focus.

It wasn't about pleasure. It was about nourishment and filling.

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Kerry: And, and thankfully I just... So when I heard him share early on about this story about his mother, I thought, "Oh, not entering into this. This is a trap, and I'm not stepping into this." 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah. You recognized it at some level. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. I wish I could- Yeah

seen that everywhere else on everything else, but. 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, my food history has really worked against me. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Lynn Strathdee: Um, because I've always sort of had a real... My mum was very, very slim, always made sure that she was And, uh, I think in the '80s, certainly where I lived, there was a kind of... Well, I think a lot of us experienced this, you know, being [00:26:00] bigger, even having curves was just thought of as like, do you remember- Yeah

like the whole Jane Fonda nonsense and all of that for us? Oh, yeah. For me 

Dr. Kerry: it was Twiggy- Yeah ... 'cause I was even, I'm 10 years older than you, so. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lynn Strathdee: So, uh, that whole kind of self-deprivation, I mean, I can remember feeling embarrassed to eat in front of someone else because m- my eating was, like, kinda shameful, the fact that you even needed to eat at all.

Wow. And so always been working against that, and I think for a couple of abusive men, that's been a very vulnerable wound around pleasing and going without with a big smile on my face. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Lynn Strathdee: Do you know what I mean, like- 

Dr. Kerry: I do. 

Lynn Strathdee: I do ... but, but literally dissociated from any physical sensations at all. 

Dr. Kerry: That's a whole nother...

I would, that's a fascinating conversation we should follow up on, is what does thinness and the body preoccupation serve for these individuals? 'Cause I do think it's a... In fact, I know that, that some people who study cults talk about that. [00:27:00] Yeah. The needing the thin woman. In fact, on our first date, Lynn, the way that it ended is we went to a steakhouse and I ordered ribs, and I ordered a full rack of ribs, and I ate them.

And he looked at me and said, "Wow, you really enjoy eating." And I said, "Yes, I do." I 

Lynn Strathdee: love- Again, I 

Dr. Kerry: was like, "I know what you're doing here, and I don't care- Yeah ... and I, I'm not being influenced by this." 

Lynn Strathdee: Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing 'cause that's so the opposite of the other ways that I know you felt around him.

Yeah. Yeah. There's something about that bit he just couldn't get through. No. Whereas for me, that would've been like lighting- Mm ... a shame touch paper. Yeah. Just commenting on, "Wow. God, you can eat." I mean, the, the shame and the self-loathing would've been absolutely monumental. So it's always been about control- Mm

which I think I've said, we talked about this before, the abuser's best friend is our own internal controller. Yes. [00:28:00] So they just kind of team up, you know? 

Dr. Kerry: They do. They do. So I would love to jump over to the podcast extra, and let's talk about if this is happening to you, what are some steps that you can take to take the control back, to start to disengage from the struggle?

Because that is the struggle here. It- we get so wrapped up in it that it becomes what controls us. So thank you so much for this conversation. It's really interesting. 

Lynn Strathdee: It was great to talk to you. It's really good to talk to you. 

Dr. Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube?

You can find me at KerryMcAvoyPhD, or you can learn about me and more about my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at kerrymcavoyphd.com. If you found this episode helpful, please do me a favor and leave me a five-star review, and I'll see you back here next [00:29:00] week