The2amClub
Welcome to The Two A.M. Club, where we have open and diverse conversations about parenting and partnerships across different cultures. Join us on an amazing journey as we explore the joys and challenges of raising children through the stories of parents from around the world.
Our collection of stories represents a tapestry of cultures and personal experiences. We celebrate our differences and the love we share for our children. While everyone's parenting journey is unique, we find common ground in the experiences that connect us.
Whether you're a new parent, experienced, or simply curious about raising children, The Two A.M. Club has something for you. Expect heartwarming stories, practical advice, and thought-provoking discussions. Our goal is to inspire, support, and connect with parents and partners worldwide.
At The Two A.M. Club, we value open-mindedness, diversity, and honesty. We create a community that embraces the universal journey of parenthood, where love knows no limits. Join us today and be part of a welcoming and supportive community of parents and partners.
We believe that parenthood is a journey filled with joy, challenges, and countless stories that deserve to be shared and in doing so we are collecting stories from parents about their experiences in navigating the intricate paths of parenting and partnership. We understand that parenthood isn't solely about raising children; it's also about nurturing and sustaining strong relationships with our partners.
Our aim is to weave a rich tapestry of stories that celebrate the beautiful, messy, and wonderful world of parenting and partnership. Your stories have the power to inspire and guide others on their path to growth and fulfillment. We are eager to share the triumphs, struggles, and lessons learned along the way. Whether you're seasoned parents or just embarking on this remarkable journey, we invite you to listen to the diverse experiences, insights, and advice that these stories hold.
Join us as we embark on this voyage, hand in hand, as parents and partners. Welcome to our discussioncast, where we embark on an honest and unfiltered journey through parenthood and partnership. As everyday individuals, we deeply empathize with the triumphs and challenges that come with these roles, just like many of you. Each episode of our show explores a wide range of topics and features special guests, offering a glimpse into the diverse experiences and perspectives within our global community. Despite our differences, we all share a common objective: navigating these challenges and joys in our own unique way.
The2amClub
Laughter, Love, and Sperm Donors: A Unique Family Journey
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Ever wondered how a couple embarks on the journey to parenthood in a world that doesn’t always understand? Our guests from Austin, Texas, share their powerful story of love, resilience, and the unexpected twists life can bring. From meeting as coworkers to raising two young children, they open up about the highs, lows, joys, and challenges they've faced along the way. Their story is a heartfelt exploration of letting go of past relationships and embracing new beginnings, ultimately leading to a beautiful family life.
Choosing a sperm donor is its own adventure, and our guests dive into every step, both humorous and serious. From selecting the right sperm bank and matching baby pictures to aligning values with the donor’s profile, they share the practicalities and quirks of using artificial insemination. We also explore the importance of community support for families, especially in environments that might not always feel welcoming. This episode offers a unique and heartwarming look at the triumphs and intricacies of building a family.
Parenthood is a wild ride, and this conversation captures the balancing act of work, childcare, and maintaining a strong partnership. From the challenges of returning to work during the pandemic to the profound personal growth that comes with parenting, this episode is full of relatable stories and genuine insights. We talk about the power of a supportive community, the importance of breaking generational patterns, and raising children to be compassionate and empathetic. Tune in for a deeply moving episode that offers comfort, connection, and a shared experience for parents everywhere.
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☕ Recorded between school drop-off and coffee break — fueled by curiosity, honesty, and a little Zuversicht.
Hello and welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 2The 2am club, the Honey Bunnies, how you doing my love. I am tired.
Speaker 1Every single podcast starts out the same way. It's just us being tired.
Speaker 2But to be fair, it's 6am. Yeah, it is 6am.
Speaker 1But there's a special reason why it's 6am Exactly Because we have our special guest that normally would be here, but they're in Austin, texas, right now.
Speaker 3This is really cool.
Speaker 1This is our first podcast online.
Speaker 3No one sounds like that here.
Speaker 1No one sounds like that. No, I was really hoping there was going to be like a longhorn thing in the back there. You know.
Speaker 3See, the thing about Austin is no one who lives here is from here. Everyone moves here and so no one sounds southern. We say y'all.
Speaker 1Okay, let him get right on sorry no, that was the intro right there, just well. There's that southern hospitality, that, uh tv series talk about all right, so hello how are you guys doing?
Speaker 3good, so just put the kids to bed we did so tell us about you yeah, yeah, um, so we are a queer couple living in austin and um we yeah. I'm not really sure where to start. Let's see, we've been together eight years we have two kids, four year old, a two year old. Um, we had talked about having three and then we had the second one how's that?
Speaker 1how's the second one, though was that, or is it also like?
Speaker 3no, I think it's just a combo of the two. Yeah, it's just, it's uh, they're spicy, it's a little backstory.
Speaker 1We know julie from our years in japan. Actually we met in japan, back in tokyo, back in the day.
Speaker 2That is ages ago. That feels really like a lifetime ago. When was that 2014?
Speaker 1I didn't have any gray hair at that point.
Speaker 2Nope, no, none whatsoever, definitely not, that was the good times. No, no, no, yeah, no worry times, yeah, and I think we met on a At a park, At a meet-up or something right?
Speaker 1Ah, at the meet-up in Chinatown. Was it the Chinatown? I think it was like Chinese New Year, I believe, right.
Speaker 2Ah, yes, and then?
Speaker 1we met at a park and then you guys left right, you left.
Speaker 3We went over to your place for hot pots and. I was blown away because Mo made the most amazing hot pot ever, and then I left shortly after that, and then you guys weren't in Japan much longer after that either.
Speaker 1No, no, we also left right after that.
Speaker 2Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I got transferred a lot earlier than planned. Yeah, we were supposed to be there, I think, around three years, but then they changed strategy and we left. We weren't too sad about it.
Speaker 1No, we were not too sad about it, but then we kept on being friends on Facebook. And, yeah, but then we we kept on being friends on facebook and uh, yeah.
Speaker 2So now we're all with kids and you guys have two and we have one that will stay with this.
Speaker 3We'll stay with that I think you know to be perfectly honest, we have said this several times and I'm not even joking. Um, I think, like even now, looking back, we love our kids. We love our two children, but we're like 60-40. If we could go back in time and just have one. It depends on the day. Huh, yeah, it depends on the day, truly yeah.
Speaker 1It does.
Speaker 3Yeah, that first year was killer. Yeah, it's killer, it's killer.
Speaker 1So how did you guys meet, and how did you guys meet and how did you guys end up with two beautiful kids?
Speaker 3Yeah. So when I met Mo in Spain, in Japan, I was still with my ex-husband and that relationship was on the out. We came back, I came back to Texas, got divorced. Max was also exiting a marriage, sure marriage and we met at work. And at the time that we met I was 30, 35. I was turning 35.
Speaker 3My biological clock was ticking and I had gotten like a big group of friends together like we're going to go out, we're going to rage, because I had made this really big decision in my life, which is that I was going to be a single mom by choice, and I was so like excited about it. And then, um, literally that night, literally that night I, someone, came home with me. And you know how it is when you meet someone and then one night turns into a weekend, which turns into weeks and two children. After a while I had said something to Max about like you know what the thing is, I've already, I'm not waiting on anyone anymore, I'm not waiting on anyone for children, I'm ready to do this parenting journey. And Max looked at me and said, hey, can you just give me a little bit of time? Can we just give me two years to see if this works, like we just see if this works. Um, because I I think I want to do this too.
Speaker 3Um and like, almost two years to the day, um, we started trying for amathia yeah um, and that I don't know how, how much y'all want to know about that whole journey Go right ahead.
Speaker 1We have two hours and 46 minutes on the amount of storage inside of the SD card, so don't worry. First of all, I just want to say I would probably fist bump Max right now if he was sitting next to me, because the way me and Svenja met was also in a nightclub and took me home that first night and right we're one kid, it was.
Speaker 2I was supposed to be a one-night stand and boom.
Speaker 1It was a hit and go right somehow stayed all that happened.
Speaker 3you made a declaration that you were like going to be a single parent by choice. This was a public statement, so I absolutely knew what I was walking into.
Speaker 1We have very similar stories.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 3Except for one kid for us, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean so as two female body people that had I didn't know any lesbian couples that had kids or anything to like guide us. So a lot of it was just doing internet research and trying to figure out, um, you know, how do you, how do you do this? Like, what's the process? And we ended up finding, um, a midwife uh, she's actually a nurse practitioner midwife um here in austin who kind of guided the process from start to finish. Um, and, and she also was lesbian, had, uh, two kids with her wife and, um, she was just she was a lot like mother nature.
Speaker 2She was.
Speaker 3She always wore a t-shirt that had the moon cycles on it. Yes, she had this little property off in like kind of outside of Austin that you know it takes forever to get out there and you walk up and there's like goats and chickens and it's like a legit farm. And she comes out and she's like hi, how are you that kind of person Like, not somebody I would like necessarily, uh, spend a lot of time with in other circumstances, but for this, perfect reminds me of my uh drug dealing um slash.
Speaker 1Uh witch doctor uncle in tahiti but he does a lot of drugs.
Speaker 3You know, I bet there's some overlap. I can see there being some overlap.
Speaker 1And how was the whole?
Speaker 3birth.
Speaker 1Was it a natural birth or C-section?
Speaker 3How did that go Well? First, with with Christ christy, our midwife nurse practitioner, we initially had wanted to do a home birth. Um, and she was really all about it like you can do this at home. We're only you know less, less than yeah 15 minutes from the hospital if anything goes wrong. And I I was kind of like, uh, maybe, maybe we can do this, and I was on the fence about it. But then my whole thought process was okay, well, the first time anything goes wrong, in the whole, we're going to call off the home birth and do the hospital, because that's a sign that, because that's a sign that we need to be at a hospital for this. And so I ended up having my water break early, and our midwife didn't have the proper equipment to evaluate whether or not my water had broken, and so she, unfortunately, had told me that no, I don't think your water broke. Well, it had. And so I was home for three days, two and a half days after my water broke oh yeah, um.
Speaker 3So then that causes, like, um, what is it?
Speaker 3a placental abruption yeah, and it like makes you real susceptible to infection, um, so I started bleeding at home and I was at work. You were, yeah, and I I had stayed home because I was not feeling. I had gone into work that morning and I had started bleeding and I was like I just don't feel well, something's not right. Went home, called christy and I told her I was bleeding and she didn't even. She was like, meet me in the hospital. So, um, and had to get induced and you know I had to stay a little bit extra because they had to do um antibiotics and everything. Um, but thankfully on the video was born like, breathing on her own. Um, perfectly fine um, for which we were really lucky. But it was a very traumatic birth experience, especially for a first time in labor was hard and the labor was really hard and you had to have two epidurals. I did, I did.
Speaker 1I'm sure you want one every day almost.
Speaker 3That would be nice.
Speaker 1You're thinking maybe I should move out to a farm out there and just have some chickens.
Speaker 2It's not that great to get epidural, by the way it's terrifying.
Speaker 1I just want what's in the bag I don't need.
Speaker 2No, no, you don't. I tell you, you don't.
Speaker 1And for the second one.
Speaker 3Oh for the second. Well, this is kind of funny. So our midwife moved out of texas and then we went with, like a very conventional medical model, um, pregnancy doctor well, because you were a, I'm a geriatric pregnancy um, and so I was like, oh, I'm just gonna wait until I go into labor, it'll be fine.
Speaker 3And then I think it's at like 39 weeks, maybe it's a 38 weeks. She was like do you? No, no, they don't do that. Oh, no, well, that's when she talked to you about it. She asked if I wanted to be induced. Yeah, and the other factor of this and I know that this has probably come up for y'all as well is that we don't have any family in town, and so we have another child and nobody to take care of her when we go to the hospital. So we were trying to coordinate care. So I had my best friend lined up to come and stay for a few days, in case I went into labor. Then my parents were going to come for a while, anyway, and so, long story short, the doctor was like like do you want to get induced at?
Speaker 3like 39 weeks and I was like you know what hell? Yeah, I do, let's get this baby out. And it was amazing, such a fun day. It was great I read a comic book and ate three hospital meals. I didn't have hospital meals for the two of us I got a dupe but I got the epidural before it got too painful. You pushed like six times when we had a kid. It was awesome it was a really good day.
Speaker 1That's really good. So one traumatic and then the second one really happy.
Speaker 2So who's the easier kid, the first or the second?
Speaker 3I bet you can guess.
Speaker 1Oh, it's frozen. It's back on now.
Speaker 3There we go. Our first child is definitely the spicier of the two. Our second kid is more easygoing and I honestly wonder is birth trauma real, for children, like for the babies, like, does that carry over into their little psyches? I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1That's actually a great question.
Speaker 2We talked about this as well, actually. Yeah, whether they realize. But for us, in the other way, I always thought he's such a good boy, like maybe he doesn't want to create any more trouble, you know, in this direction, yeah, like he really knows that there was something bad happening and we did not feel well after birth at all.
Speaker 1No, I'm still dealing with my trauma right now, actually.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I sometimes feel I don't know. I do believe that they know something about their birth.
Speaker 1They feel so much things. I feel I do believe that they know something about their birth. They feel so much things, I feel. I feel children first of all. They're way stronger than we think and they're just these sponges that absorb feeling and the world and just take everything in. They're really amazing little creatures.
Speaker 2Also a pretty big pain in the purple.
Speaker 3Agreed 100%.
Speaker 1So what's the parenting world like?
Speaker 2Maybe you're rushing a lot. Honestly, you rushed already from getting to know the midwife to birth, if you want to explain how that happens, because, to be honest, I have no idea For the midwife to birth. I mean, if you want to explain how that happens because, to be honest, I have no idea For the midwife.
Speaker 1For the baby, I mean, of course as much as you want to share.
Choosing a Sperm Donor and Conception
Speaker 3You're an open book. I like to be a what do you call it? Not like a mascot? Mascot's not the word. What do you call it? Not like a mascot? That's about the word insurance. We like to be, uh, the we're like the spokespeople spokespeople for, like queer families, we're like the harbingers of queerness and I feel like we're like that couple that people are like, they feel comfortable being like. Okay, I, I really want to, but I don't know if it's rude to ask. Like that kind of person. We get approached a lot.
Speaker 3The other thing that you know that is relevant here is that we're both social workers and therapists, and so people just get that vibe Right and so they will come and talk to us about all of the things, and usually it's you know.
Speaker 3So I think that that's part of it too, is that we sort of give off that caretaker energy, openness, openness, but yeah, but to answer your question, um, so the process for us to get pregnant was that we um had to choose a sperm bank and then pick out a donor, and the way that we picked the donor was that we had to choose a sperm bank and then pick out a donor, and the way that we picked the donor was that we went through, so I was going to carry, so it'd be, you know, my egg, and we wanted to have a donor that looked like Max.
Speaker 3So we picked out the donors that had baby pictures that looked similar to Max's baby pictures, because a lot of the places places you can't even see the adult pictures of the donors. We narrowed it down by profile first, because we didn't want someone whose profile didn't fit our value system, so we had to sort of be intellectually aligned with what they were saying and then from there, compare baby pictures, yeah yeah, and then use the same donor for both kids. We did not have to do IVF, which was amazing, so we did a mix of ICI and IVF. I could not remember. I remember these acronyms have fallen out of my head now that the kids have been around for so long, but basically the turkey baster method.
Speaker 1I was just going to ask what is ICI?
Speaker 2I think you were just starting to Google ICI, weren't you, I just wrote it down.
Speaker 1Okay, so turkey baster.
Speaker 3Yes, yeah, basically you get a little tiny, like the vials of sperm that you get from the sperm bank are so tiny.
Speaker 1It's not like we're making liters per shot, ladies.
Speaker 2It's also very small.
Speaker 3I will say, say I'm familiar, and also they split those into like 10. It's like it's a very small amount, but anyway, then they also send you a little syringe so you can go home with your little syringe and your tiny vial of sperm that gets shipped to you in this huge frozen um, like tank. It's a cryo tank. It's like three feet by. You know, it looks like a bomb. It does look like a bomb. It looks like a bomb and we had to get our ships to the UPS store because they won't deliver it to your home. So you have to sign for it and so we would have to go pick it up and and it just says like cryo tank on it. And the UPS people were always like what are you doing? Like what is this? And I was like none of your business. They did that one time because there were those like it was owned by those older lesbians who like let them have it.
Speaker 2Oh, that's right, so they only got sassy.
Speaker 3one time they got inquisitive one time like the owner was like no, yeah, she knew what was up. Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, so we tried at home a couple times and then, um, that was ici and then iui is basically you go into a clinic and they have like special equipment and they put this sperm in like a, like a really long syringe that goes like through your cervix directly into your uterus. It's uncomfortable, well, like probably eight inches long. It's long, teeny, like very thin. Yeah, yeah, it's not very comfortable that sounds like not fun it is not.
Speaker 3It's not fun. Um, and actually with ama we were doing a combination of the two methods, like every month or we would do one or two. We do like one of one and one of the other, yeah, and so the difference is like for one of them they sort of like clean quote-unquote clean the sperm, and for the other one they don't. So it's like for ICI it's like the regular stuff and then for IUI it goes through like a process to make it.
Speaker 2So it's like it's sterile for you to be put directly into the uterus.
Speaker 3I guess it's a risk of infection or something. So that's how we do. It did you guys?
Speaker 1choose the same donor the two times, or, were you like the first one? You're like okay, all right, I would have done a little mix on the second one.
Speaker 3We don't really like you.
Speaker 2We're going to pick another person.
Speaker 3I think that's really good.
Speaker 1I was like let's be adventurous. What's that one? I think it's a little bit like you go to a nightclub, you know, and you're used to the normal, and then you're like tonight I want a brunette, you know.
Speaker 2Okay, you know okay, um, but does the donor know.
Speaker 3How does that? How does that work? Does the donor know or they don't? No, it's anonymous on their end. Um, I mean, it's anonymous on both ends. But I mean, the reality is right like this is like a college kid who is trying to make a hundred bucks. So most of the sperm banks are actually set up near, like major metro areas, and the one that we signed with is completely closed.
Speaker 3So at 18, our kids can choose to write the sperm bank and the sperm bank can try to reach out to the donor and say, hey, would you be interested in just having any contact at all with your donor children? And the donor can say, no, there is a movement right now for there to be more open donor relationships so that at 18, the donor children will actually have access to the donor's name, address, all that kind of good stuff. Just kind of like how, in adoptions, there's a movement towards moving towards open adoptions versus closed adoptions, because in the long run it's actually been shown to be healthier for the children. Um, but ours is, ours is closed. But that wasn't like an intentional decision. We made no right like we had, because some folks were like yeah, you can contact us, whatever they were open already.
Speaker 3Um, so that you know, some people have a lot of feelings around whether their kids can contact the donors. But I think you know we're in a unique position, given that this is a conversation that we have with our children all the time. We're like you know you have a donor and so it just sort of seems like a natural part of it to be like, at whatever age, you will have the ability to reach out and see if this person wants to have. Um, you know, I think that's probably a conversation we're able to have easier because we're a queer couple. Um, you know, we're not like a straight couple dealing with fertility issues and so sometimes can be a barrier, but well, it's a very. It's a barrier because a lot of straight couples that use donor sperm or donor eggs don't tell the children that they're not the biological parent parent. Yeah, and it's pretty obvious. Yes, I'm a special parent. She says I have a mama and a donor and a special parent, which is great. I donor and a special parent, which is great.
Speaker 2I like being a special parent. Okay, yeah, that would have been my next question, actually, how you deal with that, Because I remember when I started working I don't know 20 years ago you started working at like 12.
Speaker 2No a long, long time ago, working at like 12. No long long time ago I, my first supervisor, my first boss. I was so impressed by her because so she couldn't have children because she had some kind of disease before and when she was in her beginning of twenties and she always knew she wanted to have kids and so she was on the list, on the adoption list, but but you know, it closes quite early.
Speaker 2I I really don't know the law, um, but I remember at the time, even for us right now, if we wanted even to adopt I think we're way too old countries we're way too old I think the, the, the, it's just like 30 or something until when you can adopt, and so she was on that list and I think two or three weeks before that deadline she got the call and she's like, well, there's a baby, uh, you can have him in three days. So she always um said like she was three days pregnant, um, and she told me her whole adoption story in our first lunch and I was super impressed. She was very open with the whole topic. Everyone knew she had a pregnancy of three days. Her son was adopted and they also raised him like that. I know. She also said they had this book and she said from the beginning they were very clear on being very open with the kid because they didn't want it to come out and especially in a hetero couple. Right, then it can be hidden, right, you could hide it.
Speaker 1It depends on the sperm you pick, huh. Very appropriate here, how do you spell that Appropriate Exactly?
Speaker 2No, yeah, and I just was always very impressed.
Speaker 3You're super open and I think that was the way that I liked it a lot. So it raising our kids to be very open and also so that, again, because we are like visibly a different family, our kids will be equipped to answer questions from the other kids on the playground and they'll have those answers already, so that they don't feel unprepared or ashamed.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, very good point so how is can now I can I ask my question now, you can?
Speaker 2now I'm mentally in this is the thing, right?
Speaker 1so our child is very much like my wife. When he wakes up, he takes a really long time. He's like really slow, he just starts bobbing around and when I wake up I'm like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And at the end of the night she's like blah blah, blah blah and I'm like this is a very familiar dynamic, so at the end, of the evening she's like why aren't you talking to me?
Speaker 1why I'm like, I'm just almost sleeping right now, and in the morning I'll be like, hey, we need to do this this. And she's like whoa, one second, Just slow down. So what's it like being a lesbian couple in Austin Texas? Honestly With kids, which is another dynamic.
Speaker 3So Austin I guess statistically speaking austin has um the third biggest population of like lgbtq people in in america um, and so our community is really welcoming. We feel safe everywhere we go um with our kids, um in austin, in austin that's really great because my uncle actually lives in austin texas.
Speaker 1I was twice in in oh no one time in austin great stone crab best stone crab I ever had in my life awesome. I still remember that restaurant.
Speaker 1But he's super conservative like yeah so for me, aust, like Texas, has always been this very I remember and I was quite young I think I was like 12 the first time I went there and then, yeah, there was a little incident that happened that I just kind of remember, where I think a dog was barking at me in his neighborhood and then he told the owners like oh yeah, but he's one of the good ones, kind of thing.
Speaker 1So for me, austin, Texas, yeah, exactly um, it was one of those moments, and I mean my uncle voted for Trump like he's a really heavy conservative, so I always have this idea of Austin being this super conservative. And then we met, wasn't it? The wasn't? The boyfriend or one of the guys from one of our friends was also from Texas, from Austin.
Speaker 2One of the guys from one of our friends, that's very specific. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1Anyways. So for me Austin like Austin is very, but it was quite surprising, really actually happy to hear that.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think you know I was actually thinking about this when. Yeah, I think you know I was actually thinking about this when I was, you know, thinking about how we're gonna talk later, um, because at least you know, at least where we are.
Speaker 3if it's very safe, it's very comfortable, um, and you know, if you think about a place like Dubai, that's like a very and obviously I've never been to Dubai, but I was just thinking about, like how it's got this image of a very like robust city that's very like on the up and up and also has like really aggressive laws regarding homosexuality aggressive laws regarding homosexuality I don't know if I'm trying to draw a parallel there or not but in the same way that, like I don't think we feel safe here, I would not feel safe in somewhere like Dubai, like bringing our, because one thing that we have to worry about as a family is when we travel in the United States usually pretty okay, there's not a whole lot of places I don't feel super safe. You pass better than I do.
Speaker 2There are many.
Speaker 3I don't pass right, Like I walk down the street and a lot of people are like, is that person male or female? And so I think, like Julie being a cisgender person and passing as a cisgender person, If I show up anywhere with two kids and it's just me, then I just look like a white lady with two kids.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 3But if I'm alone for the ride and I'm a non-binary person and I don't pass on the gender binary, then it puts our family at more risk. Right, it makes us more visible. So I think that like that is a thing that I am probably much more acutely aware of than you ever are, because I'm always thinking about it.
Speaker 3But, that being said, like I think, well, the other thing is that we mostly only go to queer or queer friendly spaces, and so, like, we're intentionally putting our ourselves in places that we know are going to be welcoming or safe. We're not going into places where we're talking politics with people who want to legislate our bodies and our rights, um, you know. And so I think that, like, that is also a thing that we have to consider is that we intentionally put ourselves in a little bubble and we're lucky to be in a place that allows us to do that, you know, because a lot of places don't, um, and also we're white, and that matters too. I think you know, like, if we were people of color, queer people of color living here, it would be significantly harder than it is as people who are white it's actually quite interesting what you said, because for me it's actually the same thing.
Speaker 1So for Svenja, when she walks around with Mununui, no problem whatsoever. But the first time I started to walk around with because I'm the stay-at-home dad, you told me to take his Emirates ID with me in case I would be stopped.
Speaker 3It's really I mean there's so many similarities.
Speaker 1Right, it's just different, but it's in the same way where I'm more aware of the whole. There are difference, you know there's very very different. Like yeah, of course, I mean in Dubai you guys could not even live in Dubai. You couldn't. Yeah, there's no way. You guys can live here. You could visit, but then you couldn't show any sign of affection between you two.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean, would you go to jail whenever we travel? Yeah, we take our kids adoption papers right and like for air air travel and stuff. We always carry the adoption orders because I had to legally adopt the kids you know. So if anything happens or we're in a foreign country and someone tries to question something like I have legal status as a parent. If we hadn't gone through that process, I wouldn't.
Speaker 1Yeah, I don't even think they could even come to Dubai. I don't even think it would even be possible, there wouldn't.
Speaker 3I don't think Just on paper wise. If we could, I wouldn't want to try.
Speaker 1I mean, I also totally understand that.
Speaker 2And I remember because my previous boss she also was a lesbian and we talked about it for business trips, right, like, what do you do if you have a business trip to a country where this is not legal? She was married to a woman and in a lot of countries this is unfortunately still illegal. And she's like well, you know, I would not do this kind of business trip. And, um, don't get me wrong, I mean, there is a huge community here as well yeah but, that does not mean that they are safe, yeah, so and.
Speaker 1I think they're hiding. Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's hidden. It's hidden, it's very hidden. And they don't. They don't have kids, they're not married. A lot of them are. Yeah, of course I mean, of course, of course, I mean the ones we met.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's very and even they might feel safe. I mean, you always have to keep that in mind and I think this is just not an easy and, especially with a family, it's simply not doable. Yeah.
Speaker 1Have you guys been to Taiwan yet?
Speaker 2Uh-uh, oh you guys should go. Amazing country. They were the first Asian country that allowed homosexual marriage.
Speaker 1Exactly Amazing country, beautiful, great food, super friendly people.
Speaker 2Yeah, Taiwan is great. Yeah, but it's quite. Oh, I'm hearing someone.
Speaker 1A little demon.
Speaker 2Should we? We're both like.
Speaker 1Just don't move. Don't move, he won't see us. Don't move.
Speaker 2Don't hear us. Hear no evil.
Speaker 1See no evil how's it in the schools? How's it in the schools for them, like, uh, so for you guys, you guys haven't really felt any difficulties. Or, from the aust Texas itself, right. So, but for the school itself, for your kids, how is that? Because, like you were saying, that you explain, the openness was already a way for them to have the tools to explain to their friends or people asking them questions. Have they faced any difficulties or anything of that sort?
Speaker 3Not that they've shared, but you know Amma's only in pre-K, so she's she'll do kindergarten next year, so she's in a public school for the first time this year. She's been in daycare before but I mean so far it's been pretty welcoming, it's been good. I've asked her directly. You know if she talks about our family structure or you know that we have a different family, but it doesn't seem to have come, doesn't really seem to come up. Look at that cutie. Oh hi, sweet pea, hello. Oh sorry, sweet pea, hello.
Speaker 2Sorry.
Speaker 3I melt a little bit in tiny humans. Hi, you are beautiful. It's nice to meet you oh.
Speaker 1He's just. He's in the middle of a cold right now, so he's nose leaking. He's not coughing this morning, so that's really great. No fever, no fever. Just can't really kiss him, kiss him, because otherwise you just get all sticky.
Speaker 3It's a little disgusting.
Speaker 1It's a little bit like feeding time, when they put it in their mouth and then they're like oh, it's really cute, Let me give it to dad now. He's like mmm. It's a little bit like feeding time, when they put it in their mouth and then they're like oh, it's really cute. Let me give it to dad now. This is like so yummy I love that.
Speaker 3Thanks for putting the terms in my mouth directly um, you know, I think max like touched on this a little bit too, but I think you know, with our, our sense of safety in austin and and I had mentioned this to you as well, mo but we created a small community of other uh well, it's, it's mostly all. It was all female, all female people, um, with children. We started a group back two years ago sorry, one second no worries.
Speaker 1Yes, sorry, go right ahead when I have to check on my baby. Okay.
Speaker 2Alright, alright.
Speaker 1You want to hold the discussion?
Speaker 3Yeah, you want to have a talk.
Speaker 1His questions would be like what's the baby formula like in Austin Texas? Like what flavor profiles do they have?
Speaker 3How's the playgrounds? We have many. Although it is hot as every, it's like 106 here every day.
Speaker 1Oh wow, that's like winter time down here it's uh it's like 50 degrees during the night in dubai. Hold on one second. What's the temperature like it's uh 643 am in in Dubai. My internet is really slow. It's 30 degrees yeah it's really hot.
Speaker 3It's 86 degrees right now At 6.44 am. Yeah, we're in the same sort of place.
Speaker 1It's the beginning of our winter time over here.
Speaker 3Hot and humid so you guys are saying you have this faith, this community that you guys set up yeah, um, yeah, about two years ago, and you were really responsible for that. Yeah, I wanted to have other people in our circle, because we don't have family here, and it felt really important to have other adults in our kids' lives that they could get to know, that would, like you know, celebrate parental triumphs with us and support us when we, you know, go through low points. And so we started off with a group. I think there were like eight families initially, and then some folks moved away and now we've got a core group of four families and by the end of this year everybody will have two kids, because everyone's popping out babies and it's been amazing. We're actually meeting I'm meeting them up tomorrow um, just getting all the kids together, and sometimes we'll just do like a sunday morning, you know meet up somewhere and let the kids run around and chit chat and grab a drink yeah, the support group is very important.
Speaker 1I mean, yeah, I mean we're the same, we don't have family here and uh, yeah, it's, it's tough, it's really tough. If you don't have that support system, it gets really lonely. I mean, you're the. I mean I was just we're saturday, friday night we had dinner with uh this, an egyptian friend of mine, and he's a stay-at-home dad with a 14 year old daughter, um, and a, uh, I think eight or ten. I'm really bad with ages already with adults, so with kids it's even worse. So I'm very sorry that I missed the age, but and yeah, I mean as an Egyptian, it's already hard yeah and then to be the stay-at-home dad.
Speaker 1It's even harder and even after 14 years he says like, yeah, it's, it gets it's. It's very lonely, it's a very even with the support system. It's. It's still a very lonely voyage that you have to take.
Speaker 3Yeah, but yeah, that's well, and you're on a. You're in a very different spot too, because I would imagine that the culture doesn't really support men staying at home so that's the funny thing, right, because here, right, it is a.
Speaker 1I mean it's the middle east, it's an islamic country, um, but uh, there's a lot of british american, there's a lot of westerns. It's a big expat city. I think it's 95% of the city is expat and then 5% is all local, or maybe. I think the numbers are a little around that, around that. But even within the Western society group of moms it's still not that inclusive. Yeah, so it's, it's, it's. I think a lot of people think it's becoming more and more normal. But we look at the numbers. I mean Svenja, she's in finance, so for her numbers and statistics and everything is great. But I think in the UK it's 4%, or is it Germany?
Navigating Parenthood and Community Isolation
Speaker 2Germany, Germany only 4 percent of men represent the stay-at-home parent and in the uk is two point, something I think in the uk is even less yeah it's a two point something, whether and it's where the woman earns the household income solely and the man stays at home, yeah so the biggest concept in germany at least, is, I think, 70 percent, where the man um or is full-time employed and the women are partially employed like I think, below 20 hours a week. Something like this is then yeah, so there is.
Speaker 1There is the fact that you do have the religious side. That comes and stay-at-home dad is not something normal, that father should be the provider and whatnot, but I mean christianity is also pretty much the same and then you have the factor of the man part. This, this manhood yes this. Yeah, the patriarchy itself that comes layering on top of it, which is even stronger. So, yes, there is a misconception. I think that the west is better. It's the same.
Speaker 3I really feel it's pretty much the same, yeah yeah, yeah, I agree, I don't think it's better they just, they just don't have the religion card to play with, you know that makes sense to me, yeah, so and I think you know I know you have talked about um part of the reason that you two started the podcast is because you were feeling the isolation and and I think you know we can really relate to that because here you are going through this experience that very few people, other other people have, like you specifically Mo, are going through like a very specific parenting experience and and Svenja, you're also dealing with the I don't like the cultural forces around that and if you don't have other people going through that same experience, it can feel so incredibly lonely, um, it's, it's so hard, like when I think, like for us, you were ready to go.
Speaker 3You like you know, you were ready to up and move to Portland because we have friends there and it would have been closer to your family, um, but that would have been really challenging for me because I don't like gray weather and I have a business that I own here, um, and so I ask for a year, yeah, and I have a tendency to ask for time, apparently noticing that this is a pattern in my life I love the fact you, you ask for a short time, but it's like years like when I ask time I get like 30 minutes max Lesson to learn.
Speaker 3But you know, like Julie was really intentional about, and so the reason we were ready to leave is because, a, we don't have any family here and, b, like we had queer community here, but none of them had kids and so it was really isolating.
Speaker 3It's a game changer and we went, like you know that first year with your first kid you go into like a baby cave right and you're just there and you're not sleeping and you're going bananas and you don't know what to do, and we didn't have anyone in our community who could help us or guide us or like mentor us in that, and none of our friends knew what to do or how to help, because none of them had been in that situation, nor were they really interested in being in our situation.
Speaker 3And so it sort of created it, put up a wall, you know, in terms of like how we could relate to each other. And it was. We also like had a lot of loss, like my stepmom died from cancer. It was just like we were in a really tough spot and lost some folks who were really important to us, and so all of that was just like maybe it's time for something else. And that's what Julie was feeling and I was like I'm not so sure. So I asked for a year and you were really dedicated to reconnecting with the community that we'd already established and also trying to build new community with people and a parent right with parent, queer parent friends.
Speaker 3Yeah, um, and so that's how the support group happened that we were talking about a minute ago. So the wonder of social media. You put up a post on facebook and got people interested and here we are, you know, and these folks have sort of become our, our core group of people that we see at least once a month. You know, it's really lovely yeah, it's, it's um.
Shared Parenthood Experiences and Advice
Speaker 1It's actually quite amazing that so many people do feel alone or feel the same things that we kind of feel, but nobody really wants to take up that that fight. They don't want to start it, you know and like when I asked our egyptian friend, I was like, so how many step, like how many stay-at-home dads have you met? And he's like, I've to be honest, quite a lot actually. But none of them really wanted to carry that banner.
Speaker 1They, they were too ashamed because, again, the, the male macho yeah, the masculine, the masculine part, right, but they were still so interested in sharing and listening and learning, right, and that's kind of like for us is the same, like we were alone. Nobody was there to help. We couldn't find the information, the resources, the, the people to kind of help us and we never wanted I I mean, that's for me personally I never want anybody to go through what we went through and and you know, and to not find that kind of help and that's really it's also therapeutic for me. This, uh, it's also very therapeutic for me and that was kind of the whole reason why we started is so that there would be somebody out there at 2 am crying angrily at their child.
Speaker 2That is crying, and you know was wondering if they were doing shit wrong, if you know, and then they could hear my my angelic voice and your demon voice over there yeah, I mean because, to be fair, look at the information that is out there no one talks about. To be honest, I was. I mean, I didn't want to have kids for a very long time.
Speaker 2Um, still the baby I am working, I'm surrounded by men, typically like very you, very stereotypical old white man the whole day, my whole life, and yeah, so I actually I didn't have pregnant people around me. I didn't have a lot of mothers around me because I'm working in a male dominated industry and they all have kids, by the way but they don't talk about it. They don't talk about their wives being pregnant, or oh my God.
Speaker 1Last night I didn't sleep because my baby cried and and I'm sure they went through this- or they do talk about it, but they say oh yeah, I sleep in a separate bedroom so that I can have sleep, so I can go to work the next day because apparently you know, parenthood isn't a job yeah, yeah, yeah exactly but, but even if I mean they're not all bad, right, but they, even if they would be there for them, but they wouldn't share it.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I honestly I mean suddenly okay, we re-decided, we decided, okay, let's have a kid. Somehow it worked right away. And, um, because I was also yeah, above I was 36 already. So I mean, you know, and we had a lot of friends struggling so we knew all about it and that it might not happen or it might take a long time.
Speaker 1So we're very fortunate it happened let's put it this way we're fortunate enough to know that we're fortunate that, no, no that that we need to to strap if when we don't want to have a second child.
Speaker 2Let's put it that way exactly so yeah, but then I mean, I was just surprised by everything that was happening. I had no clue. I felt so clueless and I was like either was. And I really looked at myself was I so ignorant before? Like, did I not like? Because I mean, I had, of course, a couple friends that had kids to be fair, not too many but I was like wow, I was not there when they just delivered. Honestly, I have no idea how they felt or that it was hard, I simply didn't know.
Speaker 1But parents also. We talked about this before. It was the fact that a lot of parents also don't share the hardship. They only share the good stuff. I mean, that's kind of what social media is today? We just share the, the amazing smells that my child give off. Not the poopy smells and the baby smells right and so but it's also our fault that we didn't ask.
Speaker 1Yeah, but but I mean, we didn't want to have kids, so we also kind of. And then when we did ask, they were kind of like, yeah, it's gonna be tough. And then when the kid came out, boom, like all the rush of information from everyone. I'm like where were you guys?
Speaker 2like but I mean, that's why I can relate to them, because they just said you know, their community was childless. So I guess you were in a similar situation.
Speaker 3Yeah, you also probably were like whoa, that's different now well, and and mo, I relate to what you were just saying because I remember when you were, we were in the hospital and you were in labor and I was on the phone with my mom and she was like here are the things that you need to know about labor that no one tells you. And it was like it is so I mean, and it was just like it's like why did you wait until I was in labor yeah, I mean like nine and a half months to figure this out? Why did judy wait until literally like julie's out there doing squats in the middle of the hallway to try to like push this baby out? And my mom is like it's gonna be so bloody and I'm like mom, it's already bloody. You are late. You are late this conversation. You are just a Midwest mom. So, yes, I relate, yeah, and it's always the same answer.
Speaker 1Like parents tell us like oh yeah, but we didn't want to scare you, or why are you guys sharing so much information? I also get this from other parents. Like you know, you shouldn't say all these things because otherwise you're going to scare other people from having kids. I'm like no trust me. What I'm saying is the tip of the iceberg of scariness.
Challenges of Parental Leave in US
Speaker 3We have this. This couple friend, alicia and Jill. Um, they're having their second due in December and after Jill was pregnant she asked she was like all right, give us give it to a straight, what's it like going from one to two kids? And I was like you really do you really want to know?
Speaker 3she's like, yeah, and I told her I'm like the year after having the second kid, hardest year of my life and I've been through a lot in my life that was the hardest year of my life, hands down, it wore me. I, I mean, I didn't even know who I was anymore.
Speaker 3I was, it was, it was hard there were a lot of so hard it was yeah, it was hard, and then I kind of just tell, I laid it all out for her and then I was like you know what, maybe I shouldn't have told you all that. Because it's too late. But you know what? We heard this before.
Speaker 2We have actually very good. Chinese friends and they told us the change from one to two was more drastic than from zero to one. And now thinking this is like wow.
Speaker 1We meet a lot of parents with like two or three kids and they tell us every time, all the the time, I never heard somebody that had more than one kid say, oh yeah, this was the best decision of my life ever and all of them that had three.
Speaker 2The third one was an accident.
Speaker 1They always start the sentence the same way and you guys started the same way also. We love our kids, but and I'm like your kids are not here, so you don't need to start with that sentence. I know you love them because they're still alive, so just go straight in and they all say this it's a 60-40 or 70-30, depending on the days right, but it's never, 80-20.
Speaker 2And tell me, like, what I'm actually interested inS is especially the maternity leave and stuff. So how, how did that work for you? Because I think this is an add on challenge there, right? So?
Speaker 3we, yes, and we also got really lucky. So when I had the first kid, we were working for the same nonprofit organization. We weren't married. We still aren't actually married. We were working for the same nonprofit organization. We weren't married. We still aren't actually technically married. We're getting married next year.
Speaker 1Congratulations.
Speaker 3Thank you. We always joke about it Like we already had two kids together, so like I might as well have a third.
Speaker 1No, no, the marriage is the third kid we had a dog, the dog was the third kid.
Speaker 3We had a dog. The dog was the first kid and the best right, I don't know she listens about the same as the toddlers. You can like put her in a room and walk away for 8 hours. That's true exactly so yeah, we were at a non, a nonprofit, working, and at first they didn't want to give. Oh, that's what it was.
Speaker 3They wanted us to split one parental leave between the two of us, and parental leave at the time was 12 weeks. So they wanted each of us to take six weeks and we were like no, ma'am, and so I called there was another, there's another family, and this is actually an interesting story as well. But there was another woman at our organization who was also pregnant, whose husband also worked at the nonprofit. So the four of us got together and we're like okay, basically we can like give them an ultimatum, like in kind of threatened all four of us are going to quit unless they let us take it. We each take 12 weeks parental leave, plus on top of the 12 weeks parental leave. We wanted to stack all of our stick leave, all of our vacation, and we got lucky because ama was born in november, november, so we were able to like, do like christmas and thanksgiving, and then spring break, and then so we were able to work it out so she actually didn't have to go into daycare for nine months.
Speaker 3um, the way that they're able to stack summer break and everything else, um. So this other couple we sat down with h, we got our, we invited the HR lady and the head of our organization and didn't tell either of them that they were both going to be at the table. And so our the president or the CEO, the whatever she was the executive director, executive director shows up and she's like, why am I in this HR meeting? And I was like, well, because HR wants us to each, each couple to split one parental leave. And she was like, basically, like well, that's nonsense, I don't have time for this. I got to go, you know, kind of a thing. So we got it, yeah. And then our HR was really mad at us. It also, I mean, it was helpful that we were, like some, of the highest performing people in the organization.
Speaker 3But yeah, we shouldn't have had to fight for it. No, we shouldn't have had to fight for it.
Speaker 1It's bullshit, that's total bullshit it is.
Speaker 3And I mean just in general. Parental leave in the United States sucks abysmal. It's terrible.
Speaker 1I like they had to use the word sick day leave.
Speaker 2To be honest, it doesn't exist right. I mean by law. I remember because the first time I got sick in Japan I realized I asked HR how do I put that in the system?
Speaker 1And she told me annual leave.
Speaker 2I was like no, no, no, I didn't take a holiday, I was sick, you know, being this very ignorant European. And then she's like, well, yeah, annual leave. And I realized, oh, there's two countries in the world where sick leave is not established by law, and that is Japan and the us. And I'm like, oh yeah, interesting, um, and I think for maternity leave.
Speaker 2I think the us is because that in japan you have, but in the us, as far as I know, there's no law providing maternity leave right, which is crazy. I mean, for me this is mind blowing, I mean, and I yeah, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 3It's crazy that people have kids every day in the United States and they're not like up and rioting about it, that we're not like collectively rioting in the streets about not having parental leave.
Speaker 2Exactly I don't understand that. We literally cannot afford to riot about parental leave because we have to work and serve capitalism but that's the part that this is and pay taxes.
Speaker 3We literally cannot afford to write about parental leave because we have to work and serve capitalism. So it's just.
Speaker 2But that's the part, but this is and pay taxes Like socialist countries, and high taxes.
Speaker 1It's not like. You guys have zero taxes. Like in Dubai, you guys are paying high taxes. Still capitalist country.
Speaker 3And then we pay for our health insurance on top of it, right?
Speaker 2like it's insane. Yeah, it's, it's, and I mean the crazy part is right, because you're like, wow, and then our little one only had to go to the daycare with nine months. If you tell that same story, in germany there was a what? Nine months you already put your baby to daycare. You know how? You know how these things are normal. You know in germany, like daycares don't even take babies um below 12 months, which is also questionable.
Speaker 1Yeah, by the way, because then it doesn't, you know, then it doesn't help those stay-at-home parents who actually want to work to actually go to work, exactly.
Speaker 2There's simply no structure, yeah so, so in the us, you have to work and in europe you cannot work. Yeah, so it's the two extremes. Somehow, you know, we haven't really found, I don't think there's the right system anyway, but yeah, I can imagine this makes things just even more difficult in the US not having any, you know, having to worry about this on top, not being protected for at least some time. I mean, imagine you have to go to work, basically right away to worry about this on top. Yeah, not being protected for at least some time. Yeah, I mean imagine you have to go to work, basically right away.
Return to Work and Parenthood Transitions
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, this is, this is sounds pretty good I still remember the first day you went back to work. You were so happy yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 2I was happy to go back to work. It was a lot easier than changing diapers.
Speaker 3Yep you can relate to that. Yep, that first day back in the office you're like, ooh, feel a little lighter. Yeah, we actually got lucky. Um, we pulled during COVID. Um, I had I quit my job, max had quit previous. I quit, yeah, the summer, the summer after Amathia was born, yeah, to start a private practice. That's been really successful. And then I quit my job, um, in January of 2020, with the intention of starting my own private practice. And then, you know, it takes a while. So, by the time March 2020 rolled around, you know, covid hit and I was like well, why do we have our child in daycare if I'm at home by myself and I don't have my private practice doesn't go anywhere. So we just kept her home for a year and had another baby. So we just got her home for a year and had another baby.
Speaker 2So we just got to stay home.
Speaker 3You know, by American standards, they both got to stay home for a very long time. And then when they went back to daycare, they only went a half days, so yeah, so the I mean like it's been three weeks right. They've been in full-time school or daycare for three weeks now, like for the first time in their lives.
Speaker 2Yeah, school just started. Three weeks ago.
Speaker 3School just started three weeks ago and so now our older one is in like the elementary school doing pre-K four, and we put the younger one in school full-time or daycare full-time. And how do you feel? Great, so good look at those smiles.
Speaker 1It's a great commercial for like oral toothpaste.
Speaker 315 hours does not seem like a lot of hours, but when you can reclaim 15 hours of your week every week, it's amazing yeah, ours goes to daycare 8, 30 to 3 and the moment I drop him off.
Speaker 1I just pass him on. There's just this yes, he's yours now. Exactly this is your responsibility. I will come back, do not call me, unless there's blood throw up blood in the throw up or fever, and that fever better be high.
Speaker 3He doesn't have a fever. I'm leaving.
Speaker 1How was the transition for them, because they were at home for quite a while.
Speaker 3You know, honestly, I think they were kind of starved for socialization when Amathia started daycare at nine months. Oh my God that was the worst.
Speaker 3That was like the worst month of my life. It was terrible. Um, it was just like she had a lot of social anxiety and I was the one who was responsible for dropping her off in the morning and, like those transitions were not well managed by the daycare that we were at. We actually ended up switching daycares like two weeks in because I was just like weird, this is not a good fit. Um, we need some, we need a place that has better systems. So we found one and we've since stuck with them and they were wonderful.
Speaker 3So, like nine months was, I think, you know, like not, it was too early and it also like you were ready. But for both of them going back the second time, like Amatheo was ready to play with kids right, she was two and a half. She wanted to play with kids her own age and Amaris wants to do what his older sister does and so he wants to play with kids and he's just a much more social kid in general. Um, so he was also ready. It was a lot easier. Yeah, and the transition to full-time school was significantly easier than we anticipated it being we like we were blocking out this whole month, like okay, we're not gonna plan anything. It's gonna be like we're gonna have our routines at home. I think this is be a really rough for the kids. I'm like they're fine, yeah, they're fine, they're better, they're better, we're better, it's great.
Speaker 2Win-win situation.
Speaker 3It really is.
Speaker 1Yeah, 100% agree I think it's good for them. Win-win would be that they could pay for the school themselves. That would be win-win.
Speaker 3Situation expectations yeah, I think baby should come with, just like a package of cash exactly stacks on stacks, making it rain as she's like. That would have been hilarious, would have been helpful, it would have been very helpful.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly the cost of diapers, just diapers, baby. Look everything. It's just so expensive.
Speaker 2Everything just becomes more expensive, like I'd like to go back to our list all right, go ahead I need to give him some structure. You know this is my job in this relationship.
Speaker 1Um, actually, I would have a slide out of our window anyways.
Speaker 2I mean, we never really go through all that questions, right?
Speaker 1right, it would be so fun. Right, that would be the coolest shit ever. You know when we moved if we had a slide out of our window, you would go there.
Speaker 2Yes, of course, all every single time with munanui.
Speaker 1I would hold Munanui and just go down the slide.
Speaker 3We would go on. All of the daredevil fun. I like to jump out of airplanes. Oh nice I like to go skydiving and do those sorts of things, and I am no longer allowed to do them since becoming a kid no motorcycle riding. No jumping out of planes. No bungee jumping. No bungee jumping. Now, when the kids are able to fend for themselves a little bit more, then max can do that, but like I need max alive- yeah, he's a motorcycle I'm motorcycle.
Speaker 1I don't jump out of planes because I just haven't had the opportunity yet. Yeah, I would not allow that either no, and then on some days I wouldn't even wear a parachute probably.
Speaker 3It is very fun. I highly recommend skydiving. I do not recommend bungee jumping. Yeah, bungee jumping.
Speaker 1We just kind of lived in like china and you're like I was like I'm not gonna bungee jump in china. There's no way. I don't trust it, the place that I have fun to jump.
Speaker 3I jumped victoria falls when I did a trip to Zambia, Zimbabwe. It's a 400-foot free fall, but the year before their line broke and someone actually fell into the Zambezi River and they had to fish her out. She lived and I was like, oh, she's alive, it's fine, we can do this. So I did it. It did not feel safe, because it was not safe, but I did it anyway.
Speaker 1I wouldn't even check the information on how many people died. I would just go, but then she would check the information and then she'd tell me you're not going. I was like why Somebody died there last year. I was like, did they really though?
Speaker 3I'm sure that they like hit their head hard.
Speaker 1Exactly. And there I'm sure that they like hit their head hard exactly. And there's like how many in the last 10 years? One, one in 10 years. Come on, it's not that bad, statistically proven. If it's one, it's been two years, only it's gonna.
Speaker 2It's gonna happen later, not now no, no, I mean we actually one of our best friends here in dubai. She's a skydiver as well. Exactly so yeah, no, not going to happen, no but I still ride motorcycles.
Speaker 1Got a Harley downstairs the best, best moments, so quiet. It's just me, the road and the Harley.
Speaker 2Okay, but coming back to the question, yes, please. The questions, because I think, I think there's actually a nice one. So that's now towards each other. By the way. I just want to say I wrote all the questions. That's true, I did check them though.
Speaker 1Are you sure you want?
Speaker 2to get married. Has your child or partner actually let's start with the partner has your partner taught you anything about yourself or life in general?
Speaker 3So I think, especially going through becoming parents. What has your partner taught you? That's a really good question.
Speaker 2It's a very thought-provoking question Again not taking the credit.
Parenting Growth Through Reflection and Understanding
Speaker 3The question is from my husband. Go ahead, Tell me what have I taught you? You know, going on a parenting journey with someone, it really um, it's like in those moments you know the 2am club right. Like in those moments when you're you've been up, when you are stretched to your limit, um, you really I feel like you bring out like this, really like essential dark version of yourself, and it's for me, having you be so grounded all the time, um, it's super, super helpful because I know if I'm I'm losing it and I I can't take it anymore. I can kind of give that stress up because you have this calmness about you that just feels really safe, it feels like okay, and then it helps me calm down. It's like all right, Max is calm, I can be calm, I can do that. It's really just because I have a super low resting heart rate.
Speaker 1You're so proud of that. So that's your super, that's your superpower it is.
Speaker 3It's like everybody in a room will attune to me because I have the lowest resting heart rate. It's amazing.
Speaker 3I like we were at a birthday party today and everybody's child if he does not know me like all the babies and the dog were like all in my lap while I was hanging out with my kid and everything else was going bananas with, like the four-year-olds, but it was like everybody under the age of one in the animals wanted to hang out with me because I was just like very calm, wow, yeah, yeah, I think actually the thing that Julie taught me that is really important is pre-kids, and she taught me how to be silly.
Speaker 3I didn't know how to do that because it requires a level of vulnerability that I wasn't comfortable with yet, and so, like, having someone love me fully you know enough to be silly and joke and playful taught me like, if I can do that with a grown up, then I can definitely do that with my kids, right, and I think that it's a really important skill for them to have to like understand that we can't take ourselves so seriously, you know, um. So I think that, like, julie taught me how to play, um, and I feel like she taught me how to play with our kids too, and that has felt really important.
Speaker 2Okay, that's beautiful, that's really beautiful.
Speaker 1I just want to say, having all the less than one year old and the animals come to you. For me that sounds like hell.
Speaker 3I was like I was in my happy place. I was like it is. I love like six month olds when they're like little potatoes and I can just hold them and nap and then like pet the dog alongside. That just makes me so happy.
Speaker 1I mean I always tell my wife she's like, oh, so what about the other kids? And I'm like love, I love our child and that's it, there is all of the kids, not my kids, not my responsibility.
Speaker 3But that's very very beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1That's really nice love.
Speaker 2You have another question um, oh, there's a lot of other questions I know. That's why I'm um, I mean, we talked a lot about the challenges no, but wait, actually going back because that question is not finished.
Speaker 1Actually that's a two-part question. Okay, what did your child teach you? What was it something that they taught you? About yourselves or about your partner, that actually this question actually comes from a friend of mine who told me that his child taught him so much and I was like that's super interesting and uh, is there anything that? Uh, you look back now and you're like, actually I learned more patience, or kind of so I learned a really interesting thing.
Speaker 3I know what you're gonna say I I went home to ohio um, a couple no, last month actually, god, that was only last month, two months ago and I stayed overnight with one of my best friends from college. I hadn't seen her in almost a decade, but she has kids who are, I think, like six months younger than each of our kids, and so we were, you know, talking, and she was, and I had mentioned something. Like you know, I have never felt rage until becoming a parent, which is absolutely true, Like like demon rage, right. I've never felt that before until having been bitten by a two year old, yes, multiple times.
Speaker 3But what she said to me was and I think it's like crazy that I'm a therapist and had never put this together but it's like a forest and trees situation, right, but we become the most triggered by our children when they are the same age that we were when we started having our parental trauma, right, so like when we had ruptures in our relationships with our attachment figures or our parents, when our kids are that age, they're going to trigger us more, and so, like, I have a four year old now, right, and I get highly triggered by her behavior because it is she's the age that I was when my parents got divorced and there was a lot of conflict and it was a really ugly situation wow and so like knowing that now, like it's like I can sort of take care of my inner child and do a lot of reparenting for myself and how I approach her right, and so like it's this full circle healing moment that gives me a lot more not a ton more, but I try.
Speaker 3It gives me more empathy and patience than I had prior, right when I was just getting frustrated and couldn't like, couldn't regulate as well as I would have liked to.
Parenting Reflections and Gender Roles
Speaker 1That's really. That's super interesting, because I always say that for me, me, it's like looking into a mirror of my childhood pain, yeah, and and I I mean all right. So so for me, right now, this last month have been super hormonal, so I, I just have these, I, I believe I'm kind of going through depression, depression, I don't know. I used the word the other day because I've just been angry, sad, happy I would a song would pop up on the radio and I would just burst out in tears Just, or a lot of times.
Speaker 1I like to kind of stand back and watch Wunanui playing or my wife playing with Wunanui and I would just there would just be this moment of happiness come out, but then I would have this flood of sadness kind of overwhelm and push the happiness down because I have a lot of father issues for myself and um, yeah, it's, it's really like I look at him and I see it and then I can feel the pain because I'm like, did my dad, did my father feel the same Like, and when he saw this how was he not more there seeing this kind of thing?
Speaker 1Like did he have the same feeling? And it's it. It really is this, this self reflective kind of inner healing, and also you really think a lot more about your, your journey, your healing. Yes, so that they for sure he's going to be fucked up. I'm going to fuck him up some way or another. Yeah, for sure it's inevitable.
Speaker 1It's inevitable right because we're humans, right. So I. But I don't want him to be fucked up the same way. I was fucked up for the same things, so it's going to be different things. I'm just very logical on that but that's really true. But for the whole age thing, that really wow, that's very interesting super interesting. I never thought about it that way, but what's?
Speaker 3happening to you?
Speaker 1oh yeah, for it that way, but that's.
Speaker 2What's happening to you.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, for sure, that's what's happening to me, yeah.
Speaker 3I think you know. On the same line I saw I don't know if it was a meme or like a TikTok or something, but it was just a short clip of a woman holding her child and it was. I'm trying to remember the exact way that it was phrased, but it was like as your daughter, I can forgive you as a parent. How dare you.
Speaker 3Wow, that's so true, so true, and that's that, I think, is what my takeaway is from um, from what my children are teaching me in this moment. Uh, because I don't think I'm learning a lot of patience, to be perfectly honest. You know, people like to say that I'm not. I'm just not. I'm working on a very short amount of patients and get shorter every day.
Speaker 3I sleep is but it has made me very reflective of um, my own, my own parents and and that's, and that's how I feel, you know, because I've been on my own journey with the way that my parents raised me and I've had my own therapy and I've set my boundaries and um, but then you know, as a parent, you have just such a different framework for looking at how you were parented and that, to me, is just like unconscionable, like how could you do that to a child? That child was mean.
Speaker 2Interesting.
Speaker 1That's really. I mean, that saying alone just says everything.
Speaker 2It really does, and I think I mean we spoke about it before, because Mo actually always had this fear I still do. While I was pregnant, he always had this fear of not being a good parent, Not being a good parent. And I just don't have that at all, but I think it has actually a lot to do with this. Yeah for sure because at least I'm not consciously aware of my for me.
Speaker 1I always said the same thing I don't want to be my father yeah yeah, for me there's a, there's this, there's, there's also I think it's a YouTube video or whatever kind of social media and there's a psychologist that said how do you measure if you're a good parent? Is that your kid, when they get older, want to spend time with you at Christmas?
Speaker 1And I'm never at Christmas with my dad, and that just says everything yeah, and that really I still remember it today and it's just really like I want to make sure that when he's an adult, that he's going to want to spend Christmas with us we're not Christian but just the holidays want to spend time with us exactly. I want him to go into the world and explore and have his own adventure, but I just want you to come back once in a while and just come and visit us and want to do it the same like you you know, every christmas we go back to her parents.
Speaker 1Her parents are actually coming at the end of next week. We're going to nepal with with them, like the relationship you guys, you have have. It's just I mean for me, that's my that's my thing. And I'm just like it's my fear that I don't live up to that. Yeah, that's really my, but it's also the motivating factor is that I really don't mess up and do what you know, but yeah, it's.
Speaker 3You're doing great.
Speaker 3So, I think when so, oh no, you're okay. When we found out we were having Emrys and we got the news that we were having a boy, I was like, oh my God, we're having a boy. I know how to raise a girl. I'm a female human. I have lived in this world. I know how to manage the social implications of raising a girl in American culture.
Speaker 3But raising, presumably, a cisgender boy is so much more responsibility, you know so, like, just in terms of like teaching him. Just in terms of like teaching him maintaining love and compassion and kindness and vulnerability, right, because we are all born with that same capacity, but then gender roles knock it out of us, right? So, like girls are taught that it's socially acceptable to connect, boys are taught that it is only acceptable to communicate through anger, right? And so, like, how do I parent this young male human in a way that is like maintaining, teaching him empathy and compassion and like connectedness in a social structure that is only aiming to literally beat it out of him? You know so, I think that that was a thing also, that, like, I have spent two and a half years parenting emrys, really trying to like nurture that in him, and he is just our happy little tank. I mean, I think we're doing a good job, but it's just like a thing that you, you know.
Speaker 3I think about it constantly and also like honoring his masculinity, yeah, in a way that feels genuine and not just. You know, here's your construction toy, right right, but honestly it's so hard.
Speaker 2I mean when you go into the clothing stores. Yeah, and then pink and blue, and I told everyone, if I see anything blue? I'm going to trick it. I mean we're buying pink things on purpose.
Speaker 1But he looks good with pink and blue at the same time.
Speaker 2I mean, so often we get oh, is it a boy or a girl?
Speaker 1We call him pretty boy Drake. Because everyone says like is it a boy or is it a girl?
Speaker 2And because everyone says like is it a boy or is it girl? I was like depends. So yeah, it doesn't need to be a boy or a girl. Well, exactly, but for us I mean it's, but it's. So I mean then his first word was auto. Honestly, I never even owned a car in my life I am german, but I do not care, could not care less about cars. And then his first word is car. In german, which is out, was like, oh my god, what happened here? Like how?
Speaker 1but it's very interesting that you bring up the fact that you were for you, bringing up a boy, right, is difficult. Right, because you're thinking, but for, like, a man to bring up a daughter would think exactly the same way, but at the end there it's just the same thing. You just build confidence, that's all what it is, right, it really is.
Speaker 2But honestly, I have the same thoughts right, because I want to raise a boy that is respectful to women. You know I'm thinking about how am I going to raise him later to respect women exactly, but it should be more.
Speaker 1I just want to raise a child that's respectful to humans yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2That's all what it should be right we should take away.
Speaker 1Yeah yeah, because this is really at the end. I just I don't want to make a dick, like that's really my whole goal. Just I don't want to make an asshole, like people are like oh, your son's a dick. I'm like, oh shit, I failed.
Speaker 2Like yeah, you're actually, you're right. No, but the thing is at the end of the day, you need to build a confident human that respects other humans.
Speaker 1End of phrase.
Speaker 2That's it.
Speaker 1That's just the way I see it. So for us I wanted a girl. I guess all men kind of want a girl, but the same thing I was like she's going to be strong like you. For me, I was always surrounded by very strong women. So my mom, she taught me the empathy. My dad, he taught me the more virile, macho kind of thing. Um, I think my conservative aunt from South Africa who told me I should think more white, told me the best thing in the world ever. She said you're just a soft man with big balls but.
Speaker 1I was like that is a great description right there. Soft meaning, I respect others and just confident in the sack of it's just. You need to be respectful and confident and I just put it into that phrase. It was like I'm respectful and I'm confident at the same time.
Speaker 1I'm confident in who I am and I can express my feelings and I can and I'm confident and that's just the for me. I mean that's the way I see it. Yeah, that's really confident and respectful. But it's quite interesting that I mean for me, for the boy part. I would just be more worried about the whole masturbation part. I mean this is going to be messy. There's a camera screen perfect timing.
Speaker 3yeah, I know, I have three brothers. I'm the oldest have three brothers. I was, I'm the oldest of three brothers and um, that that conversation does not bother me.
Speaker 1Okay, all right, so all right, exactly, so you already were brought up in the whole messiness of that whole thing, so that for me would have been the biggest, the biggest thing.
Speaker 3No, that's.
Speaker 1Oh no, so that for me would have been the biggest thing. Hold on one second. Sorry, there was a little technical difficulty.
Speaker 2So what's going to be our closing? I think we're over an hour in now.
Speaker 1One hour and 27 minutes.
Speaker 2Let's go for the is there anything, what you would like to share actually Anything that we haven't talked about? Or what's your message to parents out there that are struggling awake at 2 am, don't know what to do. Yeah, any message you would like to bring.
Speaker 3Yeah, from a practical standpoint, split the sleep. There is no reason for two adults to be awake in the middle of the night with a child. I think that was a hard lesson that we learned with our first one and with the second one I'm pretty sure that is the only way that we made it through that first year, um, and understand your partner's sleep cycles. Like I wake up early and I'm okay with that, and if she has to wake up early, everybody's day is ruined quite literally. So it's like you know we understand our strengths and we understand our challenges and we work with them and that's fine. And also there is no reason for two grown-ass adults to be awake with one child at 2 am.
Speaker 1They're just yeah, yeah, I feel I feel max is like me and julie is like and and somehow I believe that Julie has no weaknesses, right, but we have all the weaknesses and some strengths, correct?
Prioritizing Relationship in Parenthood
Speaker 3Yes, right answer. You keep us on track. I do not. You know, I think you kind of covered a lot of it. I had a thought and then I just lost it when you were talking. Oh sorry, no, it was like on something that you were saying about I don't know, it's gone.
Speaker 3No, I think it's easy to think that you are all alone in this journey, but you're really not, I think the thing.
Speaker 3The thing is that you know, when you have children and you feel this, this isolation, and then you see other people in your circle going through it, it really makes you so much better a friend and so much, so much more compassionate. And and we've certainly tried to do that with our circle of people that are having babies now like, oh, I do know what you need, I can help you with that. Like I will, I'm volunteering to be a night nurse for one family, just because it's like I know what it's like to have to be up all night, um, and not have any sleep and try to like pump and feed and all that stuff, um. But you know, I, I, I don't know that it really gets easier, just different and it is different. And I think the last thing is that it is really easy to get lost in parenthood, like that becomes an all-consuming identity. Um, but you? The only way co-parenting with someone else works is if you still prioritize your relationship with your partner a hundred percent, a hundred percent we um for the longest time.
Speaker 3We didn't have any carved out time for just the two of us, um, and we kept trying to have date nights, which, when you're a parent, who wants to go have a date at night?
Speaker 2no, no, that's the dumbest thing ever it's like 11 in the morning.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3And it's got to be in the morning.
Speaker 1Exactly, and day drinking is the new best thing ever Like. Yes, excuse me, yes, I can drink at 9 o'clock in the morning. Hello, I don't see what the problem is 9 pm.
Speaker 3Drinking, drinking, that's a problem, absolutely. We went to an all-inclusive in um mexico in february and I think it was like our second morning there. I was like, okay, max, go down to the bar, get us something to drink. And apparently they got real sassy with max. I'm like, uh, the bar doesn't open till 10.
Speaker 1A watermelon martini nine o'clock in the morning like I was like I was like just keep them coming. But yes, a hundred percent. It's really, and this is what I always, what we always say it's the child is only here because of us. It's not the other way around it's our love, it's our relationship that brought this child into the world and we happy parents is a happy baby? It's like happy, happy life, happy parents, happy baby, happy baby, happy baby.
Speaker 3It's true, you have to prioritize your relationship with your partner.
Speaker 1Whatever that looks like, you have to be strong.
Speaker 3You really have to be confident and strong enough to be that parent to say my partner comes first, because us being strong and stable is what's going to make us great parents and it's going to make a happy child yes yeah yeah, I, I had a um I don't want to keep talking forever, but I feel like I could um, I had a good friend of mine, um, going through a divorce with a child involved and before I realized that they were getting a divorce, I was kind of joking about how, like, I don't even understand how parents can get a divorce when you have kids, because, like when do you even have time to fight? You're so busy with everything you know. And then they were like well, like well, actually I'm getting divorced.
Speaker 1oh, my god oh no, I can tell you we fought a lot, oh man I have never, we have never fought so much than then when we had a child. That's still once in a while.
Speaker 1You know you don't like to listen to me, you just should follow my, my lead, honey, just I'm still stubborn, you know, I still, I still become, I'm still stubborn and I there's something I want to teach my son also just to continuously be stubborn. But yeah, no, yeah, I think those are beautiful words to end this whole thing and, uh, hopefully I maybe just to summarize split the sleep, prioritize your relationship and when do you have time to fight?
Speaker 2all right guys. It was super, super nice to uh talk to you and so nice to meet you after actually, I guess it's been almost 10 years to to meet again virtually. And yeah, I mean reach out to us anytime.
Speaker 1Yeah, we definitely have to do another podcast episode because this was super fun and I'm sure you guys have so much more to share, especially on the on the whole professional side, um this. But uh, one hour and 34 minutes, that's a pretty good podcast, so we're gonna have to make another one where it's gonna be a little bit more structured. I will talk less and I'll just let my wife lead yeah, yeah, yeah, he's gonna try enjoy your sunday.
Speaker 3Yes, we're gonna go to bed exactly enjoy your sleep.
Speaker 1I hope it's a long full sleep night and uh you're gonna get a full six hours maybe all right, sleep well, sleep well.
Speaker 2Thank you again.
Speaker 1So much, bye, bye all right, my love, I love you, my baby I love you too.