EP 3: Making Work - The Artistic Side with Amy Leach, Deputy Artistic Director of Leeds Playhouse

Disability equality leader, Michèle Taylor invites Amy Leach, Deputy Artistic Director at Leeds Playhouse to talk about her work as a director and how her approach has grown as a result of working with disabled and deaf performers. 

Amy talks about ‘packing on the muscle’ as a director, goosebumps moments, the team you might expect to find in a Ramps rehearsal room, and her advice to ‘just put it in the brochure’.!

Amy Leach is Deputy Artistic Director at Leeds Playhouse. She directed the Ramps co-production of Oliver Twist in 2020 which she then reworked into a film which can now be found on the National Theatre At Home streaming service.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor.

Michèle Taylor, is a disability equality trainer and consultant, and has been Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon since the Consortium was convened. For the 10 years, she has been supporting the partner theatres to embed disability equality and anti-ableism into their organisations and to realise their ambitions around elevating disabled people across the mainstream industry. In 2022 Michèle was honoured with an MBE For Services to Theatre and Disabled People.

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk

Transcript

Episode 3

Interviewer(s):                 Michèle Taylor

Respondent(s):                 Amy Leach

Michèle:              Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  I’m Michèle Taylor.  If we don’t know each other yet, I hope we will soon.  I’m the Director for Change for Ramps, a consortium of mainstream theatres putting D/deaf and disabled people into the heart of their work, on and off stage.  Ramps on the Moon is giving the industry the valuable support it needs just to do it.  This includes making our award winning touring productions, that reflect society back on itself, and challenge audiences on what to expect.  How do we do this?  Listen to the podcast.

                Welcome to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  And I’m in the wonderful Leeds Playhouse, with the also very wonderful Amy Leach.

Amy:     [Laughs].  Hello.  And the also very wonderful Michèle Taylor.

Michèle:              [Laughs].  Thank you.  Thank you, thank you.  Amy, do you want to tell us a bit about who you are, what your role is at Leeds Playhouse, and what your role has been at Ramps on the Moon?

Amy:     I am Deputy Artistic Director here at Leeds Playhouse, which is a role that I’ve had not for that long.  Before that, I was Associate Director here, and I’d been Associate for five years.  And before that, I was a freelance theatre director.  I’d never worked in house ever, at any organisation.  So I started here at the Playhouse almost six years ago.  And my role is quite broad, really.  So I do everything from, obviously, directing plays, I’m a director, I also am part of the programming team, who kind of look at what we’re going to be putting on, across our three theatre spaces, but also all the other spaces in the theatre.  I also lead on our Furnace programme, which is all of our artistic development work, so thinking about how we’re really supporting the development of locally-based artists, and projects, and ideas coming through.  And then, I also sit within the senior management team, as well, and so that kind of, I suppose, means that I also contribute a lot in terms of the strategic side of the theatre, and one of the things I think I’ve come to kind of lead on has been the work around disability, which has been obviously a huge part of being a Ramps partner.  So yes, in terms of Ramps on the Moon specifically, I suppose, when I came to work at the Playhouse, the Ramps project had been going for I think probably like 18 months, two years, by that point.

Michèle:              Yes, it wasn’t very long, was it?

AMY      Yes.  I’d seen two of the Ramps shows, as a freelancer, just because I happened to be around to see them, and was interested, and then what was really exciting was to become part of an organisation that was part of that consortium, and really get stuck into what that meant for us as an organisation, right across every aspect of what we do, but also think about that artistically, as well.  And knew that we had our Ramps show on the horizon, that we would make, and I remember watching Our Country’s Good, which was the third Ramps show, and it was on here at the Playhouse during my time here, and, you know, you just can’t help but watch those shows, as a director, and be like, I wonder what I would do.  That looks like a massive challenge, and I kind of want to have a go at that.  Yes.

MichèleSo that’s what you were thinking.  What were you feeling?

AMY      It’s interesting, because yeah, I’d watched all three of the shows, I’d also seen a lot of work by Graeae, in particular, but particularly watching the three Ramps shows, like I say, you can’t help but sit and watch, and just think, the challenge, the artistic challenge of these shows, the scale of them.  But the scale of the ambition around access and disability in the shows was so huge, and it felt both completely thrilling and exciting to think, Well, if you were the director of one of these shows, oh my goodness me, what a whole set of things to discover and make happen, but also totally frightening, like what a huge number of things to take on board.  And, I suppose, within it all, how do you create a piece of theatre that is coherent, that is focused, but at the same time is serving lots of different audiences, kind of giving them all an equal experience in what they’re accessing?  Which might be slightly different, what they’re all accessing, but they all need to be having kind of an equitable experience in that space.  But also, what you don’t want is that you’ve got so many different things happening that you’re basically pulling the focus, that actually it just becomes a big old mess of kind of ideas.  How do you make a really coherent project work, that works, kind of, for as many people as possible?  So it felt exciting, and really scary.  Yes.

Michèle:              Yes.  And I’m sitting across the table from you, and what is just delightful is I can see your face opening up with smiles, and your eyes are wide and sparkling, and then you start talking about, “But the show has to be coherent, and it has to be focused,” and I don’t want to say your face closes down, because it doesn’t, your face never closes down, Amy, but it’s focused.

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:               And, for me, whenever I sit and hear you talk about Ramps on the Moon, or whenever I see you work, it’s that fantastic combination of the openness to whatever exciting thing might happen in the room, what the alchemy might bring in the room, of course, fed and mixed with all of the preparation that you’ve done, with the rigour, and with the absolute dedication to the work.  And I can just see that in how you’re talking, and in your body across, and it’s brilliant, and there’s so much on what you’ve just said that I want to pick up.

Amy:     Oh, I mean, Michèle, what a lovely-  You’re going to make me cry in this interview [laughs].  That’s a very lovely thing to hear, so thank you.

Michèle:              Oh no, it’s just what I’m seeing, just what I’m seeing.  Before we get on to, though, discussing those really interesting bits, this is interesting to me.  I always get a little bit intimidated when I’m around other people that work in theatre, because I know that these differences between words like deputy, associate, assistant are really important, and half the time I’ve left thinking, what’s the difference between an associate director and a deputy director?

Amy:     Oh well, it’s interesting, because actually I think you’re right, I think those terms and titles are used in so many different ways, across lots of different roles in theatre, and they really genuinely mean different things, on different projects, and in different theatre settings, so in a way they’re only relevant within the organisation that you’re working.  So I suppose the things that have changed, in terms of going from an associate to deputy artistic director is just that kind of the level of responsibility has changed.

Michèle:              Okay.

AMY      I was already, as an associate, part of the senior management team, but yes, the level of responsibility that I now have has kind of stepped up, really, and I’m working more and more, across more and more departments, so now I’m kind of working really closely with our production team, for example, which I didn’t do before, and so kind of expanding the kind of remit that I’m responsible for.  Yes.  But it’s interesting, on individual shows, being an associate or being an assistant, you know, can also mean lots of different things.  It tends to be, on an individual show, that an associate is probably a more experienced person, and they are going to shoulder quite a lot of the responsibility of a production, they might be running a second room, or directing the children’s company, or in the case of a lot of the work that we do with Ramps, and within Ramps, it’s maybe somebody who, for example, has lived experiences as a D/deaf person, or as a BSL user, or as a visually impaired person, and is really contributing that creative set of skills to the room, so there’s a real responsibility that they have, whereas an assistant is more to support the process, but has less responsibility.  And we have something called trainee assistant directors, here at the Playhouse, which is another level, which is where we’re really kind of trying to open up the rehearsal room, to pay people to just observe a whole process.  Because actually what we know is not everybody has the opportunity to sit in rehearsal rooms, and to do that for six weeks for free, and so what we’ve tried to do, over the last, kind of, yes, six years is provide a lot of opportunities of trainee assistants, that are often quite focused around people who are underrepresented in the industry, to allow them that space to be paid to just observe a process.  So with those roles, there’s not even a kind of responsibility, really, at all.  It’s just genuinely to be there, to soak it all up, to work out if they even want to be a director.  Because they might not.  They might kind of go, “Oh no, actually, that’s not for me.”  But they kind of get to try it on, a little bit, for size.  Yes.

Michèle:              And that’s such generosity, to open up your rehearsal room to allow people to sit in.  And I know that you’ve done that virtually, as well, and we’ll-

AMY      Yes, yes.

Michèle:              -come back to that, in a minute or two.  But I love that generosity.  I think that’s just wonderful, opening yourself up to somebody who might be sitting there-  Well, you might get a trainee assistant director who’s a dog, who sits there adoringly looking at Amy Leach, or whoever happens to be directing the working, going, I want to be just like Amy, or you might get the cat, that’s sitting there going, I wouldn’t do it that way.

Amy:     Exactly.  And that’s the whole purpose of it.  You know?  We all have to find our own style of leading rooms.  And, you know, I talk a lot about kind of how do we really pack on the muscle of our skills, and to work out how we do it.  Because, you know, in the end, I can only direct as I direct, and the next person as they direct.  You know?  It’s quite a personal thing.  So it’s really important that what we try and do, through our artist development work, is really kind of, How do we support people in a bespoke way?  How do we allow them to find what makes how they do it unique?  As opposed to trying to fit a mould of things that already exist.  Yes.

Michèle:              Which is really exciting, isn’t it?  I mean, I’m listening to you talk, as a disabled person, and I’m thinking that’s really exciting, because then that becomes genuinely much more open to someone who has access requirements.

Amy:     Definitely.

Michèle:              If it’s bespoke, and it’s not, “Well, you’ve got to do it in this way, because otherwise you’re not a proper director.”

Amy:     Yes.

[00:10:04]

Michèle:              So thinking, then, about your journey with Ramps on the Moon, carrying on thinking about that, tell us about Oliver Twist, and when that happened, what happened, and what part you played in all of that.

Amy:     So Oliver Twist was our Ramps production here at the Playhouse.  And so, quite early doors, I threw my hat in the ring to say I would love to take on our Ramps production, partly for those reasons we discussed earlier, which is it both thrilled me and terrified me, and I think we have to do things that terrify us.  And I think, when I look back, some of the work I’m most proud of-  Whether it was my best work or not, but the stuff I’m most proud of has been the work that scared me, that made me kind of-  Because it meant I had to figure things out, you know, for new, and take those leaps.  So I think the thought of doing a Ramps show was like-  Well, I mean, there’s nothing more frightening, in a way, is there?  But also I just felt really thrilled by the kind of creative possibilities it might open up.  I think I was really lucky, for a couple of reasons.  One was that we weren’t the first Ramps show to go.  There had been a lot of learning.  I remember pouring over all the evaluation reports of all the previous shows, like, highlighting things.  So that was one thing.  Also I had a long patch of time before I knew we were going to go into rehearsals for Oliver Twist, where I could get practicing, going back to that notion of packing on the muscle.  Because one of the things that most terrified me about the idea of directing Oliver Twist was the first day of rehearsal, standing in that big circle, or meet and greet, and just being like, Oh god, I don’t really know what I’m doing.  I was really scared about that, because added to the Ramps project is also this massive, like, activism and advocacy, and the thing is, if I mess it up, if I don’t do a very good job, then it’s not just another show that’s not that great, it’s like that’s potentially denting the cause of integrated work, you know, creatively integrated work, thinking about representation of disabled actors on stage, you know, all of those things.  If I’m not in a good enough position to be able to support everybody in that process, and to do it as well as I possibly can-  And of course we never know how shows are going to go, they might all, you know, crash and burn, but I needed to kind of put myself in a place that I was absolutely as kind of prepared as I could be.  You know, you’re never prepared for-  You know, there’s always going to be new discoveries, but I think I needed to be in a position where I could absolutely do the best by everybody, and by the endeavour, because the more great work is made in this way, the more people will want to do this work.  You know?  Because I think it’s really important that it’s quality work.  You know?  We know it can be quality work, so it needs to be.  So that all felt really important.  So I was really lucky, because I had time to get practicing, and I-

Michèle:              That’s really unfair though, isn’t it?  That’s a really unfair pressure that is on anyone making this work, was on you coming to Oliver Twist, because suddenly there’s less permission to not be perfect.  You’re frowning at me.

AMY      No, I don’t-  Well, A) I think it’s a pressure we should all be under anyway.

Michèle:              Fair enough.

Amy:     At least I think our industry-  We shouldn’t be in a place where that’s a big pressure, but that’s where we are.  I think the flip side to that was the great thing about having Ramps was-  I remember there was a number of times during rehearsals where it felt almost insurmountable.  I mean, just the kind of-  Every day, the learning, the kind of the many, many, many plates spinning on that project, you know, I’ve never spun more plates, and there were a number of times where I’d be like, Oh my god, this is going to be awful.  Yes.  Which I, of course, never communicated to the company, if anybody’s listening [laughs], and they’re like, “What?”  But, you know, like those moments that you have, those moments of doubt that we all have in processes, but I think, whenever I was tempted to go, Take the easy route, you know, It doesn’t matter.  It’s all right.  Just take the easy route.  You’re doing enough.  Take the easy route, I would come back to this notion of, No, Ramps has been set up, and has been invested in by the Arts Council, by all of these theatres, to allow directors at scale to take risks, so we have to take the risk.  And that’s an incredible thing as, you know, a reasonably established director, to be given permission to take risks on that scale, and that’s amazing.  So yes, it’s a pressure, but that’s brilliant, because I think it meant every time I faced those kind of cliff faces, it was like, No.  Come on.  You’re here to take a risk.  And, actually, it’s okay, in a way, if it does fail, because it is all part of this big Ramps project, to try and-  And we have to try massive things, to be able to really shift the paradigm around it all.  So I didn’t necessarily feel it was an unfair pressure, at all.  I never thought that.

Michèle:              Well, I mean, that’s just brilliant.  Because that was always our aspiration, I guess, that it would be okay to fail.  It had to be.  It had to be okay to fail.  Yes.  Is it even failure?

Amy:     Well I don’t think it is.

Michèle:              No.

Amy:     No, I don’t think so.  Because I think we’d have still learnt tonnes out of it.

Michèle:              Exactly.

AMY      You know?  And that’s what the whole purpose of this whole consortium has been, is to learn, and to get things wrong.  And we say that countless times, and you’ve said that to me loads of times, Michèle, which is just so permission giving.  It’s like, actually, we’ve got to just get cracking, and we can’t wait for everything to be perfect, and we will fuck up.  So, you know-

MichèleYes.

AMY      Yes.

Michèle:              Yes, exactly.  So you rehearsed Oliver Twist, you created Oliver Twist.  Tell us some of the things that you did to prepare for that thrilling, terrifying experience.

AMY      I suppose it’s worth saying about the Ramps shows, and about Oliver Twist obviously was a Ramps show, is that the idea of them is that you have this big integrated company of D/deaf, disabled, and non-disabled artists, on and off stage, and you have as many access layers, basically, as you can kind of get in there, but ideally captioning and BSL and audio description are present creatively at every single performance.  And what we then also attempted to do was to make that audio description live within the world of the play, rather than through headsets, and make the captions not on caption screens, but absolutely part of the design.  So, you know, the challenges we set were quite huge.  And, I suppose, I say all of that because, brilliantly, now I have lots of artists approach me, particularly earlier career artists, who are like, “We want to go on this journey, we want to make our show completely accessible,” and often what I encourage people to do is just, like-  You know, “Don’t feel like you’ve got to do everything all at once,” because I certainly couldn’t have done all of the things all at once.  And it was hard doing all of the things, all at once.  The word compromise, in a really positive sense of the word compromise-  It can be quite a negative word sometimes, but in the most positive sense of it, that word compromise was present all the time.  Because, you know, you’d create some scene that was like so brilliantly accessible for a D/deaf audience, but then you’d be like, “Anybody blind will not get a single bit of this,” and so you’re kind of constantly kind of balancing different access requirements.  And that’s really interesting, it leads to some quite interesting kind of discoveries, but it’s really tough, you know, it’s just a real challenge.  So I suppose, yes, in terms of preparing, the more that people can practice different elements, and get good at certain things, because each thing is-  Like, you know, you’re opening up to whole new languages, whole new communication styles, whole new learning around the nuance of different disabilities, of access requirements, of what support is needed, and, of course, support for one person is not the same for somebody else who technically has the same, you know, disability.  All of those things.  So the amount of learning that has to go on, I suppose I’d kind of, yes, really encourage people to kind of, yes, start with one thing, you know, and kind of get good at that.  And I suppose that’s what I did a lot of, before Oliver Twist, is that I kind of did a number of productions that I either directed, or was kind of part of overseeing, at the Playhouse, where we really tried lots of different things, kind of in isolation.  And that was as much to kind of pack on my own muscle, but also thinking about the whole-  You know, we’ve got a whole organisation that needs to be ready for Oliver Twist, as well.  So, you know, I don’t know, like thinking about our stage management team, kind of shifting and thinking about some of the ways that they might support people.  Or, you know, how are our marketing team talking about all of this work?  So it’s kind of-  Taking everybody on that journey felt really important.  And so, yes, a lot of the preparation prior to working on Oliver Twist was about, you know-  Yes, packing on the muscle.  I’ve said it 300 times [laughs].  And then, in terms of Oliver Twist itself, I suppose what was really exciting about Oliver Twist, and I remember actually having a conversation with you, Michèle, you were kind of like the kind of catalyst for this decision, was that we’d chosen the title Oliver Twist, we thought, “Yes.  Great.  We haven’t done Dickens, it feels like a really good ensemble, storytelling piece, could be a really good next thing for the Ramps project.  It’s something that I’ve done a lot of.”  So another thing through Ramps was, like, build on the things you do already, rather than, like, also trying on a whole new genre of theatre.  So that all felt really great.  But we were looking, to begin with, at some pre-existing adaptations, and I remember meeting you, I think in the John Lewis café, weren’t we?

Michèle:              We were over the road, in the John Lewis café.  We certainly were.  Yes, I remember very clearly.

Amy:     And I remember kind of going, “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about this adaptation,” and you just had such great insights around like the kind of density of the language, and kind of how inaccessible that could be, for a whole range of reasons.  And it was a bit almost like make or break, that moment, because in a way-  I think there was only about a year to go, until we went into rehearsals, and it was like, “If we are going to commission a new adaptation, we kind of need to press go today.  We need to crack on.  Shall we?”  And I remember that conversation being like, again, “We just need to do it.”

[00:20:10]

Michèle:              Yes.  Yes.

AMY      “That’s what needs to happen, so let’s just do it.”  So that was when we started talking to Bryony, Bryony had obviously-

Michèle:              That’s Bryony Lavery.

AMY      Bryony Lavery, yes, who obviously is like an incredibly experienced playwright, but had only really dabbled in starting to think about disabled artists, and stories, and access.  But, brilliantly, Bryony’s so up for jumping into the unknown, so she was brilliant.  She was kind of recommended by Jenny Sealey at Graeae.  And yes, so Bryony came on board, and then we started going into R&D processes.  And that was brilliant, I think it was really brilliant to be able to start from scratch on something, because it kind of allowed us the opportunity to really think about all of these access elements, about casting, right from the word go, rather than having to kind of like retrofit something, which of course can also work, and has worked.  But it was so exciting to be able to start from scratch with Oliver Twist, knowing full well we have this really great story, so in the end, like, the nuts and bolts of the story, that structure is there.  I remember the first R&D we did, which was really influential, we had a lot of D/deaf artists in the space, we were obviously thinking about audio description, but we just started with a few pages from the novel.  And it was brilliant, because what we suddenly discovered was kind of ways of telling that story that were highly visual, and highly aural, that started to open up how we might tell the story, and the idea of what the chorus might do, and take responsibility for, the way that we could-  And I suppose, actually, my kind of two favourite moments in the whole piece are these two moments where I think we absolutely-  I think everybody is having the most focused time, as an audience member, regardless of whether they can see what’s happening, or they can hear what’s happening, or whether they can see and hear what’s happening.  One of those was the moment of Nancy’s death, which is like, you know, heartbreaking, and nobody wants to see that actually enacted, but the way to solve it was through Nancy describing her own death, whilst Bill did the visual vernacular of that moment.  And that, I mean it just still gives me goosebumps now.

Michèle:              Well I was just going to say, I remember, because you sent a few of us the draft, I mean, it almost was a draft of a draft-

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              -few pages that came out of that R&D week, and I remember reading it, and it was not only goosebumps from the point of view of, “Wow,” the story that’s being-  “This is horrific,” but it was also, “This is such an exciting way to tell a story.”

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              It felt really new.

Amy:     Yes.  Exactly.  And yes, I mean, that’s one of the proudest moments I think I’ve ever been part of creating, really.  I mean, the way that-  It was really the access solved that moment.  You know?  Thinking about access creatively helped us work out how to stage something really traumatic and awful, and a really big moment in the drama and the story, and yes, it was amazing.  I also remember, like, having that R&D really helped me kind of work out how to run a rehearsal room in a really inclusive way.  You know?  Just having that space to be like, “How do you do a readthrough, if there’s lots of D/deaf people in the room?”  You know?  And actually that’s now a way that I do readthroughs on all shows.  I mean, largely-

Michèle:              Is it?

Amy:     Yes.  I mean, largely, there’s also always been D/deaf people on all of those shows since.  But also, actually it’s just completely changed how I run first days of rehearsal, the first kind of two or three days of rehearsals.  Seeds of it came out of that R&D.  So it was amazing to be able to kind of-  And the other thing I should really take my hat off to Bryony about, was Bryony was never precious about that script.  So that script changed daily in rehearsals, right up and through until press night, basically, which was an absolute nightmare for our captions team.

Michèle:              I was going to say, that was an interesting challenge.

AMY      Absolute-

Michèle:              I remember talking to you, the day before press, and you going-

AMY      Oh my god, that poor captions team.

Michèle:              “Yes, the captions aren’t ready yet.”

AMY      Yes.  And they weren’t ever perfect-

Michèle:              “They might not happen, Michèle.”

AMY      No, they weren’t perfect.

Michèle:              “Okay.”

AMY      You know?  Because that was the thing, and we were constantly changing, constantly adapting.  And that was what was great about Bryony, was that she was just so, again, like, “Do what you need to do.”  She was so unprecious about what needed-  So, you know, I think that’s really important in this work, that there isn’t that preciousness about like, “No, the words must be these things.”  You know?  Like, actually, you need to be able to kind of-  That’s what is great about, say, doing this approach on Shakespeare, because Shakespeare’s not around, you can just, like, snip and-

Michèle:              [Laughs].

AMY      You know, we edit Shakespeare anyway, don’t we?  Like when we did Macbeth, earlier this year, we were just able to like borrow bits of other Shakespeare plays, to do the audio description, which is great-  Or, you know, write in the style of.  Yes.

Michèle:              You just mentioned Macbeth-

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              -and this has just come into my head.  Will you tell us about that, for anybody who hasn’t seen it, and I didn’t get to see it-

Amy       Oh, yes.

Michèle:              -that scene-

Amy:     Oh, that scene.  The scene.

Michèle:              -in Macbeth, with Adam.

Amy:     Oh my goodness.  I mean, yes, another-

Michèle:              Talking of goosebumps.

Amy:     -goosebumps moment.  So Macbeth we staged at the Playhouse at the beginning of 2022, and we integrated live audio description into that piece, that’s what we focused on for that.  And, like I say, we borrowed bits of other Shakespeare plays, and used the witches as kind of almost like they were, you know, omniscient, so they could kind of talk about things that were happening on stage.  So yes, looked at audio description.  We found, interestingly, with the audio description, making that script clearer for our blind audience massively improved comprehension for everybody.  I mean, you know, I mean Shakespeare’s great at audio description anyway, he’s always like, “Ah, sir, you’ve arrived,” you know, he’s always like saying like things about, “Ah, I’m going to pull my sword now.”  You know?  Like he’s brilliant already, so you can just add more of that, like, “Ah, Ross, Lennox, welcome,” you know, and nobody notices it’s not actually in the original script.  But we also had a Macduff family, and our Macduff family were a D/deaf BSL-using family, and Adam Bassett, who played Macduff, just-  I mean, he’s an extraordinary actor.  And yes, we kind of scaled down the number of characters, so Lennox became a kind of best friend, military interpreter, soldier figure, who was kind of, you know, best friends with Macduff.  So we got to the scene where Macduff finds out, you know, his family have been horribly murdered.  And all the way through the show, like, all of the other soldier characters have been, you know, gestural, and adding bits of BSL, you know, and then suddenly Ross comes in with this information, and just keeps his arms by his sides, and so instantly Macduff is like, “What?  What?  What?  What?  What?” you know, knows that something’s going on, but is getting nothing from their friend.  And then Ross says what has happened, but of course Macduff hasn’t heard that, because he can’t hear, everybody else has, and Lennox has to then go over and interpret that information for Macduff.  Again, it’s giving me goosebumps.  And I think what also was extraordinary about that is that Adam’s response to that news, in character, Macduff’s response to that news was absolutely heartbreaking.  And I love the deaf voice, like, I love deaf voice, and Adam’s response was-  You know, Adam doesn’t know what he sounds like, he’s profoundly deaf, but the noise that emanated from him was like so-  It was a noise that no hearing actor would ever make.  You know?  And it was extraordinary.  It was so from the depths of his soul.  I mean, it makes me want to cry, just thinking about that scene, and then how they gathered around him, and how they tried to-  You know, and then you’d got, like, Lennox trying to kind of translate what Macduff is frantically signing, and the whole thing was just-  Yes.

Michèle:              Wow.

AMY      Yes, an amazing, amazing moment.  And who doesn’t want to be finding brand new things in 400-year-old plays?  You know?  Like what director doesn’t want to be doing that?  You know?  That’s an extraordinary thing.  And that’s one of the many things that I’ve loved about this journey, is like all these new tools, and ways of telling stories, and performances, and actors.  Like Adam, who is extraordinary, and is now, you know, working, and we’ll never be able to employ him ever again, because he’s amazing, and-  Which is brilliant, because he’s superb.  Yes.

Michèle:              And he’s doing at least one of your BSL information videos on your website.

AMY      [Unclear 00:28:26]-  Yes.  [Laughs].  He is.

Michèle:              He’s not going to do that anymore, is he?  Let’s be honest.

AMY      No, he’s all-  Yes, he’s doing very well, is Adam, which is very well deserved.

Michèle:              That’s really exciting, really exciting for him.  Thank you.  Because I remember when you told me that, and I just wish I’d seen it, wish I’d been there.

Amy:     It was very special.  It’s the moment everybody talks about.  It really, yes, struck a chord with so many people.  Yes, people were very moved by that moment.  And again, I think it’s those moments that you hope you can create, to kind of make-  Suddenly people go, “Oh yes, of course,” like, suddenly any kind of question marks about why you should integrate work, or why it’s good to work, I don’t know, with D/deaf artists, you know, all of those things, like, they fall away, when you see moments like that.  I can’t take credit for that moment, either.  It’s like, those four actors, what they did on that stage was like-  The trust that they had for each other, the kind of the way that they worked together, and communicated, the rawness and honesty that they brought to that moment, you know, it’s like a massive credit to them.  It was beautiful.  Yes.

Michèle:              Amazing.  Just to go back to Oliver Twist-

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              -for a moment.  Because Oliver Twist never went out on tour, did it?  It didn’t.  Covid.

Amy:     No.  Covid.  Yes, yes.

MichèleSo what did you do instead?

Amy:     We made a film of it, Michèle. [Laughs].

Michèle:              Yay.  And is that film available, Amy?

Amy:     I mean, it just might be, on the National Theatre at Home platform.  Yes, it is available to watch.  Which is brilliant, actually.  How fantastic, that yes, one of the Ramps shows is out there, kind of, and people can still watch it.  Because actually it’s been really useful when people do go, “Oh, could I talk to you about a creative access?” and I’m like, “Watch the film.”

[00:30:04]

Michèle                Yes.

AMY      I think it was really good for us to have that kind of closure, as well, because of course it was heartbreaking.  I remember-

Michèle:              Because it literally was, “Okay guys, we can’t go out on tour.”

AMY      As with, you know, the whole world.

Michèle:              Yes, yes.

AMY      You know?  But I do remember, yes, the moment where we had to come and sit in a circle, here at the Playhouse, and, you know, break the news that that was it, the tour was gone.  Which everybody was really relieved for, there were a lot of very vulnerable people in the company, you know, obviously, people were very frightened, at the moment, so people had that absolute relief, but absolutely gutted.  It had been-  The way that that company looked after each other, the kind of love of that company for each other, they were such a bonded team, they felt so proud of the work.  They had poured themselves into that work, so to have it stop-  Again, it goes back to that thing of we’re not just putting on plays here, are we?  There’s a massive advocacy and activism behind these productions, so for that not to get seen further afield felt gutting.  And, you know, they suddenly had to say goodbye to each other, when they thought they were together for the next four months, or whatever.  So I remember-  We did lots of illegal hugging, Michèle [laughs].  But everybody was-

Michèle:              If I didn’t have my headphones on, I’d be sticking my fingers in my ears and singing.

AMY      Yes.  But, you know, people were just gutted.

Michèle:              Yes.

AMY      But yes, so it was a really-  It was an amazing thing to get to revisit the show, it was great to find that kind of closure, it was great for, yes, the team to come back together.  It was also great because we were able to, you know, make it better.

Michèle:              Yes.  Yes.

Amy:     So the captions, we could improve, and I remember we put on loads more detail, in terms of the audio description, and we ironed out some bits that hadn’t quite worked.  Because, in the end, rehearsing a show of that scale in whatever it was, five or six weeks, I can’t remember quite what we had, but it’s not a lot of time, for the number of things you’re taking on.  So to be able to revisit it for another three weeks, I think it was, was great, because we could just make it better.

Michèle:              And it is a great show.  It was a great show on stage, and it’s a lovely show on screen.

Amy:     Yes, it works really well, doesn’t it, on film.

Michèle:               It really does.  It really does.

Amy:     Maybe that was my most nerve-racking bit of the whole process, really.  Because I’m not a film director, and so knowing whether you had all the right things in the can and, you know, again, “Oh god, have we missed that bit of sign, or that bit of captioning that we need?” or, “Have we picked up on that?”  There’s more pressures, because you can’t just add it on afterwards.  So yes, that was a bit frightening, but actually we got there, and I’m proud of it.  Yes.  Yes, really proud.

Michèle:              Brilliant.  Well yes, just well done.  Congratulations.

Amy:     Thank you.

Michèle:              I do want to ask you about-  You’ve talked about Bryony, and you’ve talked about how thrilling and terrifying a prospect this was-

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              -to make Oliver Twist, and to go into rehearsal for that show.  Can you tell us a bit about the team you had in the room with you to make that audio description, and the captioning, and the BSL, to make that work all together, to create that coherent piece that you were striving for?

AMY      Yes.  So it’s probably worth saying that Ramps on the Moon rooms are very busy rooms, there’s a lot of people, obviously you’ve got quite a big cast.  I mean, I think actually ours was the smallest-

Michèle:               I think it was.

AMY      -Ramps production there’s been.  I think we had-  Oh god, I should know.  13?  12, 13?  And-

Michèle:              I think Tommy was the biggest.  I think that was 21.

AMY      Crikey.  Yes, that’s a lot of people.  [Laughs].  I think we felt, with it being quite an ensemble-led piece, that actually we needed to kind of just, yes, rein the numbers in a little bit, because yes, it would’ve got too unwieldy to rehearse that ensemble stuff, I think.  So we had obviously all of those actors.  Then obviously we had a creative enabler in the room, to support one of those actors.  So a creative enabler is somebody who is there to support an actor or an artist in being able to do their best work, in whatever is going to enable them to do it.  So for that particular actor, it was things like spending time with them on break times, kind of safeguarding, yes, kind of lots of support around kind of line learning, and things like that, as well.  Also, obviously, there’s a big team of interpreters, so we’d always have at least three interpreters in the room, at any one time, to support in communication.  And I say that, because that’s obviously both ways.  That’s making sure that the hearing people in the room know what the D/deaf people in the room are saying, and vice versa.  We also then had obviously all the roles you would expect to find on any production, sound designer, composer, AV design, you know, all of those things, set designer, and things, but we also had a BSL consultant in the team, we had actually two kind of audio description consultants, one of whom was within the company, and one who was a kind of outside pair of ears.  I’m trying to think back now through all the roles, because it’s quite a while ago since we made it, but yes, just a really, really busy room.

Michèle:              Yes.

Amy:     And that’s on top of, you know, your stage management team, so always loads of people.  And assistant directors, as well, so we had an associate director.  I also had a thing through, when we first made it, pre Covid, where I kind of had a very open-door policy on the room, so anybody who was interested in this way of working, I’d be like, “Yes, come on, sit in,” and so almost every day we would have observers, one or two observers coming, either disabled people who were interested, you know, or non-disabled people who were interested, kind of a real range of people who came in, to just witness what was going on, and see what was happening.  And that felt really important, as well, to just share that, like, learning every day, and kind of just some of the basics about how a rehearsal room runs, with that number of different access requirements in the space.  So yes, lots of people.

Michèle:              Wow.

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              So that’s a management challenge, quite apart from anything else, isn’t it?  Managing that many people in a space.

Amy:     Yes.  Yes, yes.  Quite huge.

Michèle:              All intent on one task.

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              One glorious task.

Amy:     I’ve never done a musical, but I know, speaking to Rob Hastie, who just did the last Ramps show, at Sheffield, he was talking about it being quite similar to musicals, where you have got a huge number of people in a room, and lots of people who have different responsibilities for different aspects of the production.  So yes, I think it-  Yes, a lot of people to manage.

Michèle:              Yes.  Brilliant.  Amy, just talk to us a bit about-  I mean, you’ve said loads about this already, but I want to ask you explicitly, why does this work matter?  Why is it important?  And why is it important to the industry?

AMY      Oh, such a massive question.  And I suppose it’s a massive question because I think it just should.  [Laughs].  I know that’s a really rubbish response.

Michèle:              Right.  Thank you, Amy Leach.  [Laughs].

AMY      Oh, what do I mean by that?  I suppose-  I think the theatre industry really prides itself on being a kind of forward thinking, problem solving, inclusive industry, but we know we’re not always.  And that’s not just in terms of disability, that’s a whole range of things, in terms of care of people, about equity and diversity.  But that’s what we pride ourselves on.  And I think, at our heart, we’re about bringing people together to tell stories that we share with an audience.  You know?  That’s the fundamental, I think, of what we do.  And so it’s so important, you know, if 25% of the nation identify as disabled-  That’s right, isn’t it?  Is that the figure?  I’m trying to remember my-

Michèle:               Something around that, yes.

AMY      It’s huge, isn’t it?  It’s a really big number.  Then we have to be representing people, on and off our stages, in the stories that we tell.  And so I think, on a really fundamental political level, we have to be doing this work.  I don’t think there’s an option, really.  I think it’s absolutely fundamental.  And it absolutely fits with the ethos of what theatre claims it’s all about.  You know?  Yes.  I also think that sometimes when we think about, you know, areas like this, there can be that sense of like the kind of old charitable model of like, “Oh, but we should do it because it’s going to make us feel like better humans, and we can pat ourselves on the back,” which-  You know, like, actually that can’t be why we do it either.  It’s a two-way thing.  I think work gets more interesting, it gets better, often, like we find amazing discoveries, like we’ve discussed, we meet more and more interesting and unique actors, we welcome people with lived experiences different to our own, that opens up the way we make stories, and the way we tell stories, and the stories that we’re telling, and that all feels like that’s a good thing, that’s really great, and joyful, and who doesn’t want a broader palette of kind of experiences, or opinions, or skills to work with?  And it’s a loop, isn’t it?  Because the more we do this, the more we’ll have more D/deaf and disabled people, either coming into the industry, or feeling that they can actually admit that that is part of themselves, and their lived experience.

Michèle:              Yes.  Yes.

Amy:     Because I think that’s the thing.  I mean, you know, there’s been disabled people in our industry for a long time, but whether they’ve all declared that, whether they’ve felt confident to say that, whether they’ve felt like their access requirements will be met if they ask for them is another thing I don’t think that’s happened.  So, actually, the more we kind of allow people to bring their true selves to the work that we make, the more interesting, and the wider array of options, and ideas.  And I think it’s also really important, I think, politically, that we are telling a more diverse range of stories.  I think the way that disabled people have been represented in stories, as we know, has been pretty negative.  You know?  It’s either the kind of the hero, or the baddie, or the person we should pity, you know, those are kind of the stereotypes that have existed for such a long time.  And I think the more that we kind of, as the theatre industry, can kind of, you know, either tell more stories where, if disability is focused on, it’s more interesting versions of that, or where actually just disabled people happen to be a character, they happen to be a lawyer, or, you know, whatever that character is, so we really kind of start to dispel some of the myths around disability.

[00:40:17]

Amy:     And I think that’s got to have a really great knock-on effect for so many people.  Like, you know, our audiences coming to watch works, suddenly kind of shifting that away from that kind of medical model, that kind of charitable model, into something much more positive, and that feels a really good thing.  So that’s my very longwinded answer, to my first answer [laughs].

Michèle:              Not at all longwinded.  That’s brilliant.  That’s a brilliant answer.  Yes.  More longwinded than we should, yes, but great answer.  Thank you.

Amy:     Yes.

Michèle:              Thank you.  I just have one last thing.  I mean, I could sit here all afternoon and talk to you.

Amy:     Same.

Michèle:              I’d love to explore a bit more about this notion of people experiencing theatre equitably.  I think there’s so much in there.  And I also think that that relates to this word ‘access’.  Because I’m falling out of love with the word access, actually.  Yes.  So I’d love to have those conversations with you at some point.  But anyway, we need to be wrapping this up, sadly.  What single piece of advice would you give to someone who is wondering whether or not to dip their toes into making work with disabled and D/deaf people?

AMY      Do it.  Crack on.  [Laughs].  That’s it, isn’t it?  Just do it.

Michèle:              [Laughs].

AMY      I think sometimes we have to just say we’re going to do something, and then find a way to do it, sometimes.  Like, when we did Road, which was the first show that I attempted to put a creatively integrated access layer into, and we were kind of doing audio description, and we just went-  It was like, “Let’s just put it in the brochure that every show is going to be audio description.”  Right?  Because once it’s in the brochure for every show-

Michèle:              [Laughs].  Then you’ve got to do it.

AMY      -then we’ve got to find a way.  I had no idea how we were going to do it, I’d never done it before, I just knew that I needed to work with Ben Wilson to find a way.  Yes.  And so I think, in the end, we just put it in the brochure, and then it had to happen.

Michèle:              [Laughs].  So that’s your advice.

AMY      Yes.  [Laughs].

Michèle:              Put it in the brochure-

AMY      Put it in the brochure-

Michèle:              -then you’ve got to crack on.

Amy:     Yes.  Because, you know, like then you’ve got to find the way you’re going to-  Yes, figure it out.  And it might not be perfect, but you’ll have found so much out on that journey.  And, oh my goodness, you know, I look back to that experience of doing Road, and all the things that it’s broad about, you know, and the friendships.  You know?  Like not just colleagues anymore, genuine friendships with amazing people, and new layers of artistic kind of ingredients to play with.  And so yes, pop it in your brochure.  Just crack on.  [Laughs].

Michèle:              [Laughs].  I love that.  That’s absolutely brilliant.  Amy, thank you so much for your time.

Amy:     Oh, my absolute pleasure, Michèle.

Michèle:              It has been a joy, as always.  And yes, put it in your brochure.

Amy:     Put it in your brochure.  Yes.

Michèle:              Commit.

Amy:     Thanks for having me as part-

Michèle:              Don’t give yourself an escape rope.

Amy:     Thanks for having me as part of Ramps, as well.  Because, like, as you know, we’ve talked about it a lot, but it’s changed my entire practice, you know, I feel it’s been quite lifechanging being part of Ramps.  So I’ve got a lot to thank it for, and your support through it has been amazing, so thank you.

Michèle:              Oh, thanks, Amy.  Well you’ve been fantastic with Ramps.  Fantastic.  Don’t know what we would’ve done without you.

Amy:     Aw.

Michèle:              Right.  Let’s just have a love-in.

AMY      [Laughs].

Michèle                We’ll mutually appreciate each other.  [Laughs].  Thanks ever so much, Amy.

AMY      Thank you.

Michèle:               Thank you for listening.  You can contact me through the link in the show notes, or through our website, rampsonthemoon.co.uk.  Ramps on the Moon is funded by Arts Council England, and is made up of six mainstream theatres, Birmingham Rep, Leeds Playhouse, Nottingham Playhouse, the New Wolsey Theatre in Ipswich, Sheffield Theatres, and Theatre Royal Stratford East, and our associates, Wiltshire Creative, and the Regional Theatre Young Directors Scheme.  This podcast is the copyright of Ramps on the Moon.  Ramps on the Moon cannot be held responsible for any mistakes or omissions.  This podcast is made for entertainment purposes.  And finally, we’d like to thank our friends at podtalk.co.uk for producing this podcast.

[Audio ends: 00:44:43]