EP 7: The important impact of having an AGENT FOR CHANGE in your theatre

Ben Wilson and Aisling Gallagher have been Ramps on the Moon Agents for Change at Sheffield and Theatre Royal Stratford East respectively. They are both also independent theatre-makers.

They give us a fascinating insight into what an Agent for Change does - and doesn’t do - to support organisational transformation, why being annoying, and why they have a trampoline instead of a desk. 

Aisling celebrates the times things happen without their having any input and Ben tackles head on one of the key criticisms of Ramps on the Moon.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor.

Michèle Taylor, is a disability equality trainer and consultant, and has been Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon since the Consortium was convened. For the 10 years, she has been supporting the partner theatres to embed disability equality and anti-ableism into their organisations and to realise their ambitions around elevating disabled people across the mainstream industry. In 2022 Michèle was honoured with an MBE For Services to Theatre and Disabled People.

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk

Transcript

Interviewer(s):                 Michèle Taylor

Respondent(s):                 Ben Wilson, Aisling Gallagher

MICHÈLE              Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I'm Michele Taylor, Director for Change and this is my opportunity with my guests to open up the conversation about disability equality in the arts and cultural industries, and talk through what needs to happen. 

Welcome to this next episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  I’m here in my-  I was going to say home studio, but let’s be honest, it’s just a room in my house where I have a mic and some headphones.  But we’re doing a podcast episode today over Zoom, and I’m delighted, I just couldn’t be more excited, to be talking to Ben Wilson and Aisling Gallagher.  And Ben and Aisling are, or have been, Ramps on the Moon Agents for Change, and I really, really want today, in this episode, to interrogate what that means.  What is an Agent for Change?  Why is an Agent for Change important?  And explore what Ben and Aisling’s experience has been of being a Ramps on the Moon Agent for Change.  So without further ado, I wonder if I could ask each of you-  Perhaps Ben, if you could go first, ask each of you just to give us a very brief introduction to who you are, and what your place is in the theatre industry.  Ben?

BEN        Sure.  Yes, it’s a pleasure to be here.  So, as Michèle said, my name is Ben Wilson.  I am a blind actor, director, and audio description consultant, are the three main things I do, but like lots of people in the theatre industry, and lots of independent artists, I wear lots of different hats, at lots of different times.  So I would say that my biggest passion, my biggest drive, is making work and being involved in work that does interesting things with audio description, and that is accessible to blind and visually impaired people like me, in more interesting, and creative, and artistically satisfying ways.

MICHÈLE              Nice.  Thanks, Ben.  We’ll probably explore some of those themes during the episode.  Thanks ever so much.

BEN        I hope so.

MICHÈLE              Aisling, what about you?

AISLING Hi, my name is Aisling Gallagher, and I am the Agent for Change at Theatre Royal Stratford East.  I’m also a freelance director, and a creative access kind of consultant/practitioner, and recently have kind of been getting into kind of combined visual arts stuff, which has been quite cool.  I am a white person, with clear glasses on, and messy blonde curly hair, and I am wearing a black turtleneck, and look a little bit like a ridiculous clichéd version of what an artist might look like.

MICHÈLE              [Laughs].  We’re right in the-  What is it, the West Bank in Paris, in the 60s.  Brilliant.  Thanks, Aisling.  And immediately, I just think it’s-  This was not by design, but I think every single person who has worked as a Ramps on the Moon Agent for Change has been a theatre maker, a theatre practitioner in their own right.  Because these Agent for Change roles are generally part time, and immediately we’re seeing that, so Ben is talking about being a practitioner, Aisling is talking about being a practitioner, and what I love about that is how that brings something really unique and innovative to the role of being an Agent for Change.  And I hope it works the other way round, as well.  I hope that working within one of our partner theatres contributes to your practice as theatre makers.  Aisling, Ramps has been going for about seven and a half years now, and we talk very comfortably about Agents for Change, and I sometimes forget that lots of people don’t know what that role entails.  So how would you describe the role of an Agent for Change, in a nutshell?

AISLING When explaining to someone what an Agent for Change is, which I do quite regularly, every time I, you know, talk about it to someone who hasn’t heard of Ramps before, I kind of start with saying, like, the mission statement for Ramps is about enriching the stories we tell on stage by normalising the presence of D/deaf and disabled artists on and off stage, and the Agent for Change is kind of key to supporting the partner organisations to do that.  So that looks differently in every partner organisation that has been part of it.  Basically our job is about embedding change in an organisation, embedding access in everything the organisation does, like in all dif-  You know, in the ways that in the theatre there’s all different, you know, components that make up that theatre, it’s embedding change and access in all of those things, to challenge and to provoke, and sometimes to annoy, to be honest, to like be a bit of a nudger and challenger.  And I think one of the key things that I have come to kind of think about this job, at this point, you know, two and a bit years down the line, is that we are there to support the organisation, and the individuals within that organisation, to learn how to do these things for themselves.  Which sometimes is holding their hand and supporting them practically, sometimes holding their hand as they make a mistake, and panic, and think that the world’s ending, and, you know, reminding them that they’re human and that’s not what happens.  Not doing the things that maybe we might immediately think, “I know, I should do this, I should do this,” because that’s not how people or organisations learn, and that’s the way I’ve found the role to be most fruitful, I guess, in the slightly longer term.  That wasn’t really a nutshell.

BEN        [Laughs].

MICHÈLE              It was quite a big nut, but no, I think that was great.  And all of that in a part-time role, by the way.  Yes.  Thank you.  Ben, have you got anything you want to add, or maybe that has been different for you, in your role as an Agent for Change at Sheffield?

BEN        Yes, I did forget to say that in my introduction, that yes, I was the Agent for Change at Sheffield Theatres for five years, from May 2017 until last year, until 2022, whatever last year was.  I think Aisling nailed it there.  I wouldn’t add too much.  The way I sort of always thought of the Agent for Change, and the way I sort of think of Ramps on the Moon, and as Director for Change, Michèle, you may disagree with me here, and may think this is a bad way of describing Ramps on the Moon, was that there were sort of two strands to Ramps, in terms of the practicalities of how it works on a day-to-day basis.  Number one being the shows that tour around the partner venues once a year, that have a large disabled cast, and have integrated access, and that’s sort of stand one.  And then strand two is using those shows, and sort of Ramps on the Moon as a project, using that as this catalyst for change within the partner organisations, and the industry more broadly.  And the Agent for Change is sort of one of the main ways in which Ramps aims to achieve that, having a disabled voice at sort of management level of the organisation, to do all the things that Aisling pointed out, to ask questions, to run projects, to make change, to be a pest, to be a critical friend, you know, to be an ally, to be whatever it might be, whatever you need to be, on a different day-to-day basis.  And I always thought-  When I look back on my time as an Agent for Change, it’s only just finished really, even when I was in it, it’s interesting that it was so many different things at so many different times, that it wasn’t the same from day to day, it wasn’t the same from month to month, it wasn’t the same from year to year.  There were times when I was just being someone in the office asking questions, being at meetings, keeping the issue of access, and disability, and representation on the agenda and high up the agenda, just by being there and asking questions about it.  There were times when I’d got projects funded by the Ramps project fund, so that took up a lot of my time, and then ensuring that that project wasn’t just a project in and of itself, but had long-lasting change and repercussion for the organisation and the industry.  There were times when I was working on some of the projects that Sheffield Theatres already had going, whether that was shows at that building, whether it was projects with the learning team, whether it was just ongoing marketing and communication campaigns, whatever it might be, you know, working one day with the artistic director, and the next day with, you know, the front of house staff, and the box office staff, and the next day with the comms team, the next day with the fundraising team, whatever it might be, it’s sort of here, there, and everywhere, and sort of trying to cover as many bases, and touch base with as many parts of the organisation as possible.  Which I think is both the joy of that job, and also the biggest challenge.  It’s joyous sort of being that sort of-  To have a free range to be working with everyone, and get a whole breadth of experience, working with, and for, and in different directions-  Different departments, and sort of getting to explore every nook and cranny of the organisation is great, and it gives you a real variety of tasks to get on with.  But the sort of the downside of that is it can be a bit of an isolating role sometimes, you don’t have a direct place in the organisation, you don’t have a team.  I always joked that I was a team of one, and I always tried to blame my team for when things went wrong.  But yes.  Which is different.  Where other people might have a really close-knit bond with their team, or the people they sit with in the office, or whatever it might be, whereas you’re a bit of a lone ranger, going here, there, and everywhere.  So yes, that was both the best and the sort of most difficult part of that job, was that sort of lone ranger-  Free range, lone ranger type vibe.

MICHÈLE              Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you, Ben.  And I think it’s just important to remind listeners that we have six founding partner theatres at Ramps on the Moon, and an associate partner theatre in Wiltshire Creative, so there have been Agents for Change at seven different partners.

[00:10:01]

MICHÈLE              And they are locally employed, so Aisling, you are employed by Stratford East, Ben, you were employed by Sheffield Theatres, and that feels like a really important aspect of the role, actually, because it’s the partner theatre employing an Agent for Change, taking responsibility, and that’s another kind of mantra of Ramps on the Moon, is that it’s the partners taking responsibility for doing that embedding, for doing some of that stuff that you’ve already started to allude to.  And, as you talk, Ben, I’ve got this image of Agents for Change moving around the theatre kind of in stealth mode, ninja catalysts, and ninja irritants, and ninja critical friends.  And I know that I always say-  And the two of you have heard me say this so often, but I always say to any new Agent for Change that, “As far as I’m concerned, you don’t have a desk, you have a trampoline,” because nothing lands with you, it all bounces back into the organisation.  Because there’s nothing-  I was about to say there’s nothing substantial that you should be doing, and that could sound very insulting, but there’s nothing substantive within the organisation that you should be taking ultimate responsibility for.  And I guess I kind of want to explore that a little bit, because that must be a bit weird.  Not only are you potentially a team of one, but one of the most important aspects of your role, I think-  But bear in mind, I’ve not been an Agent for Change, but I think one of the most important aspects of your role is just to be around the organisation, just to sit and have cups of tea with people, and sit and do your work at a desk alongside other people, and be around.  I don’t know what you think of that, Ben?

BEN        Yes, I think that’s definitely really important.  That’s the sort of change that you can’t-  It’s not quantitative, is it?  You can’t say-  You know, you can’t sit down and say, “These are the list of changes I make,” but just those conversations you have, they have repercussions beyond, you know, just that conversation.  You know?  And actually sometimes it’s those little changes, and the sort of cumulative effect of those little changes, and just the shift in attitude is massive.  And sometimes that’s the most important thing.  I always sort of think that when it comes to change, and meeting people’s access requirements, or making an environment accessible, you can sort of put it into two categories.  And that’s sort of practical, actual change that needs to happen, for me as a blind person coming into a space it might be keeping things neat and tidy so there’s not things for me to trip over, it might be in a rehearsal room that the markup is tactile as well as visual, it might be making sure I’ve got the software on my laptop, to ensure that I can use that laptop in an accessible way, they’re the sort of practical, tangible things you can do to make somewhere more accessible.  And then the second one is sort of more cultural, and attitudinal-  I don’t even know if that’s a word, but I always use it, attitudinal change, to make sure that everyone-  That the attitude and the culture is right in a particular space.  And I always think that that second one, the culture and attitude one, is actually far more important than the first one.  Because if that second one is right, if the culture is right, if the attitude is right, then all the practical stuff will follow really easily.  But sometimes, even if you get all the practical stuff right, but the attitude and culture of a place is still wrong, it’s still unwelcoming, and still inaccessible, it doesn’t matter how many of those practical changes you’ve made, you’re still not going to be able to thrive and do your job, or all that sort of stuff.  So I think to sort of scale that up to [s/l the scale 0:13:36] of an organisation, actually how you make that cultural change, is that just being around, having those conversations, challenging people, asking questions, having a cup of tea with various people and talking about all this stuff and [unclear 00:13:49]-  And you can’t count that, you can’t keep track of it statistically, but that’s the stuff that, long term, will do the most good, and have the most impact.  And yes, and that’s the stuff sort of I think is really interesting, and really important, is-  Yes.

MICHÈLE              And Aisling, is that your experience, as well?

AISLING It’s the thing that Ben has just said, and like you said, as well, about cups of tea.  And for me I think that’s a helpful-  It’s a helpful way [unclear 00:14:16] the image of that in my head.  Because it’s unlike any other job I’ve ever had, and probably will ever have, like, having a cup of tea with someone, or having lunch with someone, doing things that people would maybe in, you know, ordinary workplaces, think of as like downtime, or just like, you know, catching up with someone, or having fun, or whatever, not that it’s, you know, not also those things, but actually those are a really crucial part of our job.  In a way that I always still have to remind myself, when maybe on a day I’ve had some really amazing conversations, like, that weren’t planned, with some people, and it’s meant annoyingly I haven’t been able to get to some of the other things on my to-do list, or some emails, and trying to remind myself, actually, that’s okay, and I still need to do those things, but these things are important enough to take a big priority in how my working day is.  Which is just very unusual.

BEN        Yes, it’s something that I often have to remind myself of, you know, occasionally, whether it’s as an Agent for Change, or working on other projects, whatever it might be, or just talking to people in the industry about disability access, is that you occasionally get imposter syndrome of like, Well surely everyone knows this.  This is just common sense.  Why are they paying me this money to tell them what’s common sense?  But you constantly get these reminders that, actually, it’s common sense for us as disabled people, because it’s our everyday lived experience, and, you know, we can’t forget about access, because it’s literally, you know, our bread and butter, it’s our everyday experience, we can’t walk into a room and not be thinking about how accessible it is to us.  And actually, for us it’s common sense, because we think about it every day, because it’s been part of our working practice, you know, for our entire careers.  But, actually, stuff to us that is simple, common sense little things is not, because that presence and representation of disabled people within the day-to-day running of an organisation has not been there.  And so I constantly have to remind myself that actually, stuff that to me, and to disabled people like me, is so simple, is so common sense, is so just second to none, you know, just obvious, is not that for other people, because they’ve never had that lived experience, they’ve ever had disabled colleagues, they’ve never had that voice in their organisation.  And actually I sometimes, you know, have to remind myself-  Actually, it can be really frustrating to think, Why am I making this most basic little change?  Surely this is just a given.  When actually that’s the stuff that’s actually just as important, and even though it seems simple and easy to us, actually it’s massive for the organisation, and massive for those individuals who are thinking about that for the first time.

MICHÈLE              That’s such a great point, Ben.  Such a great point.  And actually, isn’t it interesting, because I know that when we meet together as a team, or when I meet with you as Agents for Change, there’s some stuff that you talk about that actually, I don’t know why I’m surprised, but challenges me.  It’s common sense to you, but it might be something I’ve never come across, never thought of.  And so that learning curve is just, I think, fantastic, so valuable for all of us.  Aisling, what do you think are the things that are absolutely key to being a successful agent for change?  Whatever that might look like.  I think it can look like a whole host of different things, can’t it?  But what, for you, has been really important, in terms of you knowing that you’re having some impact?

AISLING I think the main thing, one of the key things that I thought about, whenever I first went into the job, that still kind of rings true now, is being willing to challenge, like, the organisation, people, and not shying away from that.  And when I say challenge, that doesn’t mean, you know, being confrontational, being physically loud, you know, even though I am sometimes those things, but challenging happens in a whole variety of ways, really loud ways and really quiet ways.  And I don’t think you can do this kind of job if you’re not willing to do that challenging, because it does take you to do that pushing, because it’s your job.  You know?  It’s, understandably, I think, a bit difficult for an organisation, you know, who’s-  We all know what theatres have been dealing with over the last couple of years, you know, dealing with a million crises, to kind of encourage you to say, “Oh, try and make my life more difficult.  Remind me of more obligations I have to do.”  Like it’s understandable that someone is not going to do that.  So I think, yes, being willing to challenge.  I think a key thing for being an effective Agent for Change kind of, you know, in the longer term, and being able to see the job out, is about you’re willing or able to learn how to manage the impact of the job, whatever that impact is, because it will have a different impact on different people, in a way that works for you.  And that’s different for everybody, because again we all have been in different organisations, and so we’ve had different experiences of the job, but without doing that, and learning about what that meant for me-  I wouldn’t have been able to keep doing the challenging bit well, if I wasn’t also figuring out what I needed to do to stay well.  And I think two tiny key things.  One thing is, you said about success, as well.  A big thing for me learning has been about success looks different to maybe what you expect it will look like.  Whenever you start the job, it is a lot less tangible, often, and that is very fru-  I find that very frustrating, and difficult, because I like to have tangible things, but kind of making my peace with that was something I had to do.

[00:19:56]

AISLING And the main thing-  Like one of the main important things, I think, is like not pretending that you have all the answers, or that you are, you know, an expert in like-  You are the disabled person who, you know, is going to say aye or nay to everything, every question anyone has, and you’re all knowledge [s/l seeking 00:20:18] and, you know, you can never be wrong.  And I try to think about that around like leading by example.  Like, “I don’t know the answer to your question,” or something else, and that’s fine.  And I feel like I’ve tried quite hard to make sure that people in the organisation know that making mistakes, or not knowing something, does not make you a failure, does not make you bad at your job, does not make you, you know, not able to be contributing to this bigger goal that we want.  While at the same time, you know, recognising that you have responsibility to maybe apologise for any screw-ups that you make, and that’s not a weakness.  Apologising for doing something wrong, or screwing up, is not a weakness, it’s a strength.  And trying to show that behaviour.  Because I think that often some of the things impeding change or progress within theatre is people being worried about doing things wrong, or like hurting someone, like, from a very good place, but it makes people so stressed that they then are like, “Well it’s safer not to try.”

MICHÈLE              Yes.  Yes, absolutely.  And I’m really struck, Aisling, by two key themes that I’m picking up from what you said.  One is you’ve got to be willing to challenge, and you’ve got to be that irritant, and be willing to go, if necessary, right to the top of the organisation and challenge, and, on the other hand, also make it okay to get it wrong.  And there’s some tension there, isn’t there, which is kind of interesting.  Calling people to account but, “Yes, you did get that wrong.  That doesn’t make you a bad person.  That doesn’t make this a bad theatre.  We just need to face up to it, and take responsibility for it and,” like you said, “apologise.”  Yes, that’s a really, really interesting kind of juxtaposition there.  Thank you.  Ben, what about you?  Key factors, key things that make your job as Agent for Change a success?

BEN        It’s interesting, I’m struck by so much of Aisling just said, about the tangible things and the intangible things.  And some of the tangible things I remember, interestingly, now that I’ve left, I think-  So a couple of weeks ago I went to see Standing at the Sky's Edge, which has just been playing in the Crucible, in the Main House, and went to the audio described performance, which also happened to be the signed performance, and knowing that the-  Listening to a really great, creatively performed audio description, and there being two BSL interpreters integrated into that show for that night, that was massive.  One, that it’s still happening now that I’ve left, but also the fact that-  You know, that was one of my main things when I first came into Sheffield Theatres, was there was lots of accessible performances, but the quality of those accessible performances was not up to scratch.  And so, although it was sort of a long, hard battle to make that change, and actually there’s still more change, and for me that would’ve only been the starting point, if I was still in that job-  I was like, “Right, that’s a good starting point, now let’s do even better, let’s do even more than that,” sort of, that was sort of the base level I wanted us to get to.  But it was still really exciting to see a thing, and I’m like, yeah, there is a thing that is different about this organisation, because I’ve spent five years there, that five years earlier they were a million miles off from doing something [unclear 00:23:31] of that standard.  And like sure, in an ideal world, we could’ve gone further, we could’ve done more, and it took a long time to get to that change, and, you know, there’s still-  You know, sometimes you’ve got to switch off that part of your brain that says, Yeah, but what about this?  What about this?  We could’ve done even more.  We could’ve done even more, and just say, Actually, it may be a smaller win than we wanted when we first arrived, but it’s still a win, and still a win worth celebrating.  And then also, there’s just sort of little things about-  I remember a couple of moments when you notice something is happening that you haven’t needed to do yourself, whether it’s when the people putting together the artist development platform sort of just, without me inputting, sort of making sure there were spaces for disabled artists sort of ringfenced off, and ensuring that diversity was represented in the group of artists that are being supported, and it’s like, I’ve not needed to say that, it’s just the culture of this organisation has shifted to the point where that is something that just happens, it’s great.  And yes, but what Aisling just said, about the danger of sometimes being seen as the disabled person in the organisation, and being expected to have all the answers.  And also, you know, we are disabled people, we don’t all agree, we don’t all have the same opinions.  There are things that I know if I said on a public platform like this, or when I was Agent for Change, I would be shouted down, and lots of people would really disagree with me.  And it’s interesting, like, sometimes I felt the need to sort of toe the party line, in some cases, not give my honest opinion, and just say, “This is what I know as a community we are wanting to say at the moment,” even if it’s not quite what I agree with.  And I find that challenging sometimes, is that, you know, we’re expected-  You know, we’re a huge community, with lots of varying opinions, and varying, you know, demands, and I-  You know, some of my opinions, you know, don’t toe the party line, and actually there’s a balance between what I want to happen and want to change in this organisation, and what [unclear 00:25:20] the wider community want and need to happen, and what’s the balance to be struck there, and what’s the sort of the fine line?  And also our opinions are changing all the time.  So some of the conversations I had-  You know, I was at Sheffield Theatres for five years.  My opinions changed over that five years, my attitude towards certain parts of the theatre industry, or the sort of fight for change within the theatre industry changed massively over the course of that five years, and that’s always going to happen, as well.  And-

MICHÈLE              It’s so interesting, Ben.  I love that kind of exploration.  That sometimes it’s just pragmatic that a community holds a line, in order to get things done, and in order to make change happen.  And sometimes a community is holding a line because we’ve kind of got into an orthodoxy.  It might be a different orthodoxy, but it’s still an orthodoxy.  Maybe that’s an episode for another time.  You know?  What happens if we don’t toe the line, and just say what we think?  Where does that take us?  That’s so interesting.

BEN        I would definitely be cancelled on Twitter.

MICHÈLE              [Laughs].  That’s a badge of honour these days, isn’t it?

BEN        [Laughs].  Yes.

MICHÈLE              Aisling, what have you loved about being an Agent for Change?  If anything, I guess I should add to that question.

AISLING I think one of the main things is that I have met and worked with so many amazing people that I don’t know if I would’ve come across them in whatever way.  That has been amazing.  And learned loads, both like directly relating to the work, you know, and access, and that kind of thing, but also learnt loads in ways that’s really enriched my own creative practice, as an artist and as a director, and has really enriched my kind of work in like consulting, and training, and stuff, as well, it’s really helped that.  I think that I’ve also loved the fact that I have had like a lot of flexibility and trust placed in me in this job, and that’s really helped-  This is kind of a bit more of a personal thing, but like it’s really helped me remember that actually I can do a job really well whenever someone trusts me to do whatever I need to do to manage my job, even if that doesn’t look like the way everyone traditionally would work, in a building, or an organisation.  That has really helped.  And I was trying to think about, like, stuff that, like, I’ve achieved, that’s tangible, and one of the things that was really difficult at the start was, I’ve done nothing, nothing’s happened, this is so annoying, I can’t say anything that I’ve done, this is [s/l melting 00:28:13] my head.  That was very, very annoying, so I guess that was a frustration about the job.  But actually, like, quite a good kind of example to kind of-  And I realise this isn’t a tangible one but, you know, still it’s a more helpful one that’ll make people hopefully get what I mean.  A couple of months ago, we had a symposium, and all of the Ramps partners had a symposium, which was basically a day coming together to talk about their Ramps journey in the last number of years, and obviously different venues had done their show at different points, so a lot of people have done lots of learnings from that, and just [unclear 00:28:52] workshops, and talks, and that kind of thing.  So yes, we had ours in November, and I like had nothing to do with it, and it just happened around me, because like figuring out the access for that symposium, whether-  You know, there’s the whole practical, operational side of that, in terms of organising an accessible event, and, you know, booking access things, and budgeting, and all that kind of stuff, or like creatively embedding access, so the workshop contents that were happening, or like the disabled artists who kind of performed in little slots at it, like, all of that had nothing to do with me, because it wasn’t my job, and it was part of everyone else’s.  And the people who worked on it put so much work into it, and it was a huge team effort, and I had nothing to do with it.  And that might sound a bit weird, but it was a really big moment for me of being like, Oh wow, access is really embedded in so many of these people’s jobs.  And that felt really nice, because it was such a big example of, Well, would this have been able to happen, a couple of years ago?  I’m not sure.

[00:30:03]

AISLING The other thing that’s really nice is that this week, that we’re having this conversation, rehearsals for Village Idiot have started.  Village Idiot is Stratford East’s Ramps production, which opens in Nottingham on the 11th of March, then goes to New Wolsey in Ipswich, and then goes to Stratford in mid-April until early May.  And rehearsals started this week, and, in the nicest way possible, yesterday, when I was in the office, it felt just like any other rehearsal had started.  In a good way.  Obviously, you know, it was different from the last thing that rehearsed, or the thing that rehearsed before that, but it just felt very normal, and that also felt a very tangible achievement.  Yes.

MICHÈLE              Yes.  Great examples, Aisling.  Congratulations.  I mean, that-  Yes, it sounds a bit weird to talk about achievements being things that you’re not involved in, but yes, I know exactly what you mean.  It’s because you have pushed those things back, that responsibility back to the organisation.  And I’m really interested to know, from each of you, one part of what we always talk about, at Ramps on the Moon, is that Ramps is about the mainstream taking responsibility.  Ramps is fundamentally about the mainstream industry talking to itself about this stuff, and taking its responsibility seriously.  And I’m really intrigued to know from each of you, what’s it like to be a disabled person being active in this way in the mainstream?  So not working in disability arts, or arts and disability, or exclusively with other disabled people, or even necessarily mainly with other disabled people, but doing this stuff working in the mainstream?  Ben, have you got some thoughts?

BEN        Yes.  Def-  Obviously I always have thoughts.

MICHÈLE              [Laughs].

BEN        It’s interesting that-  [Laughs].  It’s interesting that the-  One of the criticisms I hear of Ramps on the Moon, from outside of it, which I think is really interesting is that, “Should we be giving this chunk of money to non-disabled-run organisations to learn what lots of us have been doing for decades anyway?”  Whereas other people would say, “Shouldn’t we really be giving that money to the organisations that have been doing-” Or, “The artists that have been doing this work for decades and are already experts in it, and using that money to lift them up to the level of the mainstream?”  And I completely hear and feel that frustration, I’ve probably thought it myself sometimes.  You know?  I’ve definitely said it, you know, in my head, or sometimes out loud, and it’s probably quite arrogant to say, but why am I being employed to hold the hand of the people in charge, to teach them what lots of us already know?  Can’t we just cut out the middleman and put me in charge?  It would be so much easier and so much quicker.  And that is frustrating.  But actually, the truth of the matter is it’s not one or the other.  We need both of those things.  We need the artists who have been doing this work for decades to be lifted up, and to be given a bigger platform, and bigger budgets, and bigger scale to play with, but we also need non-disabled artists of all levels, from the lowest, sort of, cheapest, sort of fringe levels, people just starting out in their careers, to the big, established mainstream organisations with huge budgets.  We need all of those people, as well, to get better at this stuff, and get more engaged with this stuff.  And that is where Ramps has been really, really successful, I’d say, at really both those things.  And that does not negate the need for that other thing to happen as well, it’s just that’s what Ramps’ focus has been, and that is a huge positive.  But I completely agree that we need both of those things to happen, in the long term, to see the change that we need in the industry more broadly.  And I think it’s really interesting, and really exciting, and really difficult sometimes, because you go into a big building like when I was at Sheffield, and arriving on day one, and it was this huge organisation, with three theatres, and, you know, a huge staff, you know, all these shows happening with huge budgets, and it was this big machine that had been making theatre in a particular way for 50 years.  And everyone is really good at their jobs, and it-  Well most people are really good at their jobs.  Should I say that?  Who knows.  And it works, it’s a really well-oiled machine, and you’re going in and challenging people, you know, who have been doing their job really well for decades, and been celebrated for doing their job really well for decades, and asking them to do it different, and challenging them.  And that is scary, and intimidating, and worrying sometimes.  That is a huge challenge.  But the joy of it, as well, is these big buildings, these big mainstream organisations have this huge audience, and this huge-  You know, this access to hugely talented artists, who are really great at their job, and the sort of joy of seeing disabled artists, disabled actors, for example, on big stages, with big, beautiful sets, working with texts of the highest quality, and working with amazing directors to get the best out of them is amazing, and something that, as disabled people, we don’t get the chance to do often.  Often we’re cornered off into our own little corner of the industry, with not much money to play with, and not very many audiences coming to see our work.  And so to get the opportunity to play in the sandbox, with all these toys that non-disabled artists get to play with all the time is really exciting, and really joyous.  And also, the other way around, from an audience point of view, giving D/deaf and disabled audiences-  Giving D/deaf audiences a BSL show, on a big stage, with a huge budget, giving blind audiences an audio described show, on a huge scale, with a huge budget, giving neurodiverse audiences and learning disabled audiences relaxed performances, in a huge building, with a huge scale, and a huge budget doesn’t happen, and we really need that to happen.  And so that has been the big joy, I think, of Ramps really focusing on the mainstream is, on those stages, in those buildings, that are engrained in the culture of our country, and in the cultural consciousness of our country-  And a lot of the Ramps shows have been titles, and been shows, and been plays that are engrained in our national consciousness, you know, cultural consciousness, and inserting disabled people, and disabled people getting to reinsert themselves into those narratives, and be given their rightful place on that platform, as part of those narratives and part of that culture is huge, and can’t be underestimated, in terms of how important that feels, and how spectacular that feels.  It’s fresh in my mind, having just worked on Much Ado About Nothing, but to see Beatrice and Benedick being played by disabled people is massive, because they are characters that are so engrained in our consciousness, and part of our national identity, and yet disabled people, we’ve been missing from that part of our national identity, and so we had to reclaim our place in that.  You know?  It was Oliver Twist, when it was, you know, Fagin and Nancy, and the Artful Dodger, and Bill Sikes, you know, these characters that are-  Again, just they’re so vital to us as a country, and our understanding of ourselves as a country, and to have disabled people reclaiming our place within that is massive.

MICHÈLE              Yes.  Absolutely, absolutely.  Aisling, what about you?  How is it, as a disabled person, spending this big a part of your working life in the mainstream?

AISLING So I never have to stop reminding myself that what is normal for me, and what’s normal for a lot of people I know, whether that’s in a work context, or just like, you know, in your personal life, or whatever, just isn’t the normal in the industry.  And it’s been a few years, and I still have to remind myself of that every single time.  Which I don’t think is a bad thing, to be honest, because I always can see the impact on someone else of that moment of the assumed both understanding of what is the [s/l same 00:37:41] normal, of me being like, “What?  That’s ridiculous.  Why is this the way it is?” and someone having to explain.  Yes.  I think, as well, I feel like when you’re a disabled person working in the theatre industry, you need to develop a thick skin, and be willing and able to feel different, and feel odd sometimes.  And sometimes that is easy, and really joyful, no effort whatsoever, and sometimes that’s really hard, and has an emotional toll.  And thinking about the normal thing, as well, like stuff that is-  Ben has alluded to this already.  Stuff that is so obvious to me, in some small ways, like it not being obvious at all to other people.  And this has particularly happened whenever, like, I’ve worked on random projects as a creative, generally kind of outside of this job at Stratford, especially if it’s like I’m working with someone who I’m like really impressed-  I don’t know them, but I’m like really impressed by them, or really love their work, or have seen their stuff, and I’m like, “Oh, their-” you know, “Their creative work is amazing,” and then sometimes when I talk to them about something that is like baby 101 things, they’re like, “Oh my god, my mind is blown.”  In quite a nice way.  In quite a hum-  I think in quite, for them, a bit of a humbling way.  But I just find it funny when that kind of juxtaposition of, “Oh, I’m like still a baby artist, and impressed by people who have done really cool stuff,” but also they are impressed and terrified by getting something wrong to do with, you know, things that are very obvious and clear to me.  The thing that Ben said about, you know, the criticisms that Ramps has had of, you know, giving money to non-disabled-led organisations, you know, etc., I was thinking about that, just as he was saying it, and actually like I feel really strongly that the fight that kind of we have, as disabled activists in theatre-  Because most disabled people I know are activists in theatre, even if, you know, they didn’t intend to be.  It’s like for equitable access, and a seat at the table, and representation, it’s not a fight that’s happening in a silo.  It’s happening across the industry, on different fights, led by black and brown artists, and trans artists, and working class artists.

[00:40:00]

AISLING We are one part of a much bigger collective push and movement to make this industry reflective of the world that we live in, and to distribute power and resources in equitable ways.  And even though yes, this should’ve happened a long time ago, yes, many amazing organisations and companies have been working in different and radical ways for years, and it’s very normal, and it’s quite annoying sometimes, whenever people in charge, you have to explain stuff that’s really obvious to you.  But there’s a Diane di Prima quote that I sometimes go back to around this kind of stuff, and it’s like, it’ll take us coming at the thing from all sides to pull it down.  And obviously I don’t want to pull down the theatre industry, but I mean, you know, pulling down the embedded inequality and oppression that has existed in the industry, for many artists of many different experiences, and it takes us coming at it from all sides.  And that means, you know, a radical, independent, disabled-led section of the industry and the broader arts world making disabled-led work, working primarily and exclusively with disabled artists, but it also means barging into the mainstream, and just like, you know, metaphorically headbutting things, until things change.

MICHÈLE              Love that.  Love that, Aisling.  Really articulate, really impassioned, and a great call to action.  Thank you.  Thank you so much, both of you, for your answers to that question, because I think it’s not necessarily easy.  Really sadly, we’re running out of time, but I just want to ask you each one final question, which is if I were a disabled person considering applying for an Agent for Change role, what would you say to me, in two or three sentences?  What would you advise me to take into consideration?  Or would you not advise me to take anything into consideration, would you just tell me to do it?  What would you say to me?  Ben?

BEN        I would definitely say do it, because for me personally it’s been hugely beneficial.  My sort of network of great disabled artists and great disabled people in the theatre industry is huge now, from having done that job, which is one of the greatest joys.  My also, sort of-  The sort of network of people at big venues is bigger now, you know, the joy of this last period of Ramps being a consortium is, you know, you’ve got connections there to seven great organisations, all doing different and interesting work.  So I’d say do it.  I’d say have thick skin.  Be prepared for it to be slow, hard work, monotonous work.  But also I’d say celebrate the wins when they happen, and really hold on to them, because they are huge, and we all need those wins.  And-  This isn’t very concise.  Yes, so I’m going to try and sum it up more neatly.  Do it, because it’ll potentially have huge benefit for you and your career, I’d say do it because you’ve got the potential to make huge change, and do huge good for other people in the industry, and the audiences who are underserved at the moment, but have thick skin, have the support network around you of other disabled people and other Agents for Change you can lean on, and celebrate the wins when they come, because they’re huge, but also sometimes feel fewer and far between than they should.

MICHÈLE              Yes.  Thank you, Ben.  Thank you.  Aisling, what about you?

AISLING My first thing would also be to do it.  My second thing would be take care of yourself, as a priority, and recognise that is one of your almost responsibilities in the job, if that makes you be able to think about it a bit better.  I think particularly if you’re someone who works a lot, or who says yes to everything, or, you know, wants to-  You know, is a busy person, and most freelancers I know, most artists, are also juggling other jobs, are juggling, you know, different things, never mind the kind of extra life admin, medical admin that we kind of all have as disabled people.  But the reason I say that is because, in my opinion, I don’t feel like you’ll be able to do the job well if you’re burnt out and your mental health has been badly impacted.  So whatever way you need to, make sure taking care of yourself is a key part of your job, even though that’s quite unusual, and that maybe will take some getting used to.  I think that the phrase that Ben used about it being slow, hard work is a really good description, although it might sound a bit grim, because obviously I’m looking at it with, like, rose-tinted glasses of the last two years.  It has been slow, hard work, but also it’s about holding onto the joy.  Because there have been a number of moments over the last two years that I have like found myself extremely overwhelmed with how lucky I feel that I have ended up in a job where I get to do this as my job.  Like, what?  How is that a thing?  That I get to, you know, support people, learn how to do things, see people grow in confidence, and progress their own learning and understanding, meet loads of really great disabled artists, and a much bigger network of the disabled arts world, that makes me know that I’m not alone in this fight, even if I feel like I am sometimes, when I’m having a bad day.  It has been a difficult job, at times, but I don’t feel like I’ll ever have any other job like this, and I feel so grateful that I’ve had the chance to do this job, and I will be really sad when I leave.  Like, I actually don’t want to think about it, because I’ll probably get upset.  You know?  And I did not think this would be the case, you know, two years ago, necessarily.

MICHÈLE              That is so brilliant, Aisling.  Thank you.  Thank you for that honesty.  Thank you, both of you, for your honesty.  We need to be wrapping up, but I have a feeling that this is an episode that people might want to listen to more than once.  There’s so, so much richness in there.  And, genuinely, I think to listen to the two of you, with the experience that you’ve had over the last few years as Agents for Change, for sure, but what you’ve made of that experience, and what you’ve given to your organisations, what you’ve enabled yourselves, and given yourselves permission to take from those organisations is so valuable to listen to, so thank you for sharing your experiences.  And it’s been a joy, to pick up on that word, Aisling, to work with both of you.  I know that we will stay in touch.  Aisling, you’re still an Agent for Change, which is fantastic, and Ben, we are still in touch, which is also fantastic.  So thank you, both of you, I really appreciate your time today, and yes, thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Thank you, Aisling Gallagher and Ben Wilson.

BEN        Thank you.

AISLING Thank you.

MICHÈLE              Thank you for listening.  You can contact me through the link in the show notes or through our website rampsonthemoon.co.uk. This podcast is the copyright of Ramps On The Moon.  Ramps On The Moon cannot be held responsible for any mistakes or omissions.  This podcast is made for entertainment purposes and finally we’d like to thank our friends at podtalk.co.uk for producing this podcast.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    Very good, guys.  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

MICHÈLE              Oh, thank you, both of you, so much.  That was brilliant.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    I’ve got just a couple of things.  One is, Ben, ‘attitudinal’ is a word.  I’ve just looked it up.

BEN        [Unclear 00:48:00].

AISLING I also use it quite frequently.  Yes, definitely an Agent for Change affiliated word.  [Laughs].

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    Yes.  Yes, yes.

BEN        Definitely.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    And just one other thing.  You started the podcast, Aisling, by giving an audio description.  Can I ask all three of you, do you think this is a good idea?  Should we do this every time?

BEN        It’s interesting, like, the reason audio descriptions of people are sometimes useful is that it’s a piece of information that other people are getting that blind and visually impaired people are missing out on.  In this context, it’s a podcast, just an audio podcast, no one’s getting it, so it’s not that thing.  I’ll be honest with you, there is huge-  I could talk about this for hours.  You’ve started me now.  There is huge debate amongst the blind and visually impaired community whether self-descriptions are useful, and whether they’re not.  You know?  And the reason that I think they’re useful is for that cultural attitudinal thing, to use that word again, that I spoke about.  It sets the tone, at the start of a meeting, there are people here who might be-  There may be people watching this, listening to this, in this meeting who may be blind or visually impaired, and we’re acknowledging-  You know, we’re not ignoring their existence, and there may be people in this room with other access requirements, and we’re acknowledging they exist, so I think it’s a really useful thing, from that point of view.  Yes, I’ve never heard it on a podcast before, because it’s an aural medium, so no one’s getting that visual.  But also, if we think it’s a nice thing to-  And also, you know, everyone else who’s listening will get the experience of what a blind person would normally get when they hear a self-description, because they’re not getting the visuals of what those people look like, as well.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    Yes.

BEN        I think it’s perfectly-  Yes, I don’t know, is the honest ans-  Is the [overtalking 00:49:23].

AISLING It’s interesting.  Like, I think the reason that I instinctively went to do it is because we’re on a Zoom meeting and I would do that-  I’ve got into the habit now, if I am in a meeting where I know someone is blind or visually impaired, or I don’t-  You know, it’s a bigger thing, where you don’t know, I’ll do it by habit.  And it’s because we’re on Zoom, but obviously I’ve never heard it on a podcast ever.

MICHÈLE              No.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    This is-  Sorry.

AISLING But it felt rude to like ignore the fact we were on a Zoom, even though it’s for a podcast.

[00:49:51]

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    Yes.  I mean this is something I’ve just thought about, while I was listening to you all.  Just any podcast, I think it would be nice to have an audio description of somebody.  You know?  Because a true podcast isn’t video, it’s audio only.  So I was just thinking, because I listen to a lot of podcasts, I edit a lot of podcasts, and I was just thinking it might be a good idea to do, not just for Ramps, for other podcasts I do.  I think that’d be quite good.  I mean, I would like to get an idea of who I’m listening to.

BEN        Yes.

AISLING It helps situate.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    It does.

AISLING Because I listen to a lot of podcasts too, and I think it helps situate the context of whatever that person is in that day, which I quite like, as well.

MARC MASON (RAMPS PODCAST PRODUCER)    Yes, yes.  Okay.  Thank you for the feedback.  Thank you.

[Audio ends: 00:50:30]