Ep 11: Mat Fraser, stage and screen actor, writer, drummer and anti-ableist activist

Michèle talks to Mat Fraser - stage and screen actor, writer, drummer, and an anti-ableist activist. Join us for this lively, interesting and challenging podcast episode!

Mat is well known for his powerful presence on both stage and screen, and is a patron of Graeae theatre company.

Mat has appeared in acclaimed productions including American Horror Story, His Dark Materials, CripTales,  and Barbara Met Alan screen-based credits. Theatre credits include Beauty and the Beast and the first disabled actor to play Richard III in a professional production. 

Mat's work spans theatre, television, and film, often blending bold storytelling with social commentary. Beyond his creative achievements, Mat has broken ground in challenging perceptions of disability in the arts.

Thank you Mat for being a brilliant guest.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor.

Michèle Taylor, is a disability equality trainer and consultant, and has been Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon since the Consortium was convened. For the 10 years, she has been supporting the partner theatres to embed disability equality and anti-ableism into their organisations and to realise their ambitions around elevating disabled people across the mainstream industry. In 2022 Michèle was honoured with an MBE For Services to Theatre and Disabled People.

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk

Transcript

Interviewer:                     Michèle Taylor, Director for Change, Ramps on the Moon

Respondent:                    Mat Fraser, actor, writer, drummer

 Episode 11 -

MICHÈLE:           Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I'm Michele Taylor, director for change, and I work to elevate the place of disabled people in the mainstream cultural sector. In this second series of the podcast I've chatted with some brilliant disabled actors as well as non-disabled allies from arts organisations who, with the support of Ramps on the Moon, are embedding anti-ableism into the work they do. Each episode makes sense on its own, but do go back and listen to the earlier episodes if you haven't already. Join us, as we change the world. Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. It's great to be up here. I'm in my home studio again up here in Newark in Nottinghamshire, and I couldn't be happier, genuinely couldn't be happier to have landed a fantastic guest, Mr Mat Fraser who is described in various places as a rock musician, an actor, a writer, a performance artist, I'm going to come back to that description. He's a patron of Graeae theatre company. You may know him from American Horror Story, His Dark Materials, CripTales, Then Barbara Met Alan screen-based credits. Theatre credits include Beauty and the Beast and the first disabled actor to play the horrible Richard III.

MAT:     In a professional production, yeah.

MICHÈLE:           In a professional production. Thank you for that qualification. At Northern Broadsides, directed by Barry Rutter. And we're ging to come back to all of that but I- As always I have no idea what territory we're going to cover today, so I'm excited to find out a little bit more and I'm going to start, Matt, by asking you, I just said rock musician, actor, writer, performance artist. How else do you like to be described or how else do you think of yourself?

MAT:     Well I think of myself in terms of- And thank you very much, it's lovely to be on your podcast by the way, hello. All those words have adequately described things that I have done. But I mean the performance art years, if you will, where, you know, 1995 to 2005 mostly, I'm still- One is always a musician. You never stop becoming a musician. I have a drum kit behind me, albeit an electronic one. You can see it directly behind me there which I still play. I guess I like to be described as an actor and a writer and a drummer these days because that's the order in which I proceed these days. My performance art days are a little bit behind me because the thing is about performance art, it's lovely and brutal and direct and I love all the things that it can offer you, but once you've moved out of it into, you know, being seen on telly and being called [unclear 00:02:38] by 50-year-old husbands and stuff, people don't like you to do everything. They don't mean to pigeonhole you, but they don't like you to do other things. So- And I've lost my performance art chocks and I've moved on. It would be weird if I went back. And also, if I did go back, my style of brutal, often completely nude, ultra-confrontational performance art is really out of whack with culture these days because everyone has got so damn sensitive. And there are pros and cons to the sensitivity factor but one of the things I can't do now is shock in the way that I used to shock using the tools that I used to use because they hurt people and I don’t want to do that. I do want to hurt some people but not the others. I want to hurt the mainstream, the man, the Trump, you know? But not the allies. And that's increasingly difficult. So yeah. I blathered on a little bit there. But I don't want this to be- I'm out of time, I'm an old disability dinosaur, I'm out of time. But I think it's important that we recognise that they have changed. Things are slightly different and we should proceed accordingly and my accordingly is to remain an actor, to try and write for the screen pretty much exclusively, not with any success particularly but I keep trying and I'm getting a little bit better and just that's it. And being nice to people. That's a new one. You know, when you're- As we both have been, an activist, and that's your primary mode of existential, you know, that's what I am front it, you forget to be nice to be people. You forget to be kind to people that don't agree with you. It's all about the issue and as I've learned, at the old age of 63, that you know, being nice to people actually counts for an awful lot and so I've softened a little as I've got older because I realised that all that important issue-based jaw-clenching stuff has ruffled a lot of feathers unnecessarily along the way. I mean, you know, the old Mat would have gone feathers need to be ruffled etc. I'm trying to find that happy medium now.

MICHÈLE:           And that's really interesting. There's so much in what you've said already that I want to pick up on. What I hadn't realised, there's no reason why I should have known this, is you and I are almost exactly the same age so you were 63 a few weeks ago, I will be 63 in a few weeks. 

MAT:     Happy birthday.

MICHÈLE:           Well thank you, right back at you. And I'm- Age- Growing older. I mean, as disabled people, as disabled people who've been activists, as disabled people who are perhaps learning- Because I resonate with so much of what you've said about kindness, about ruffling feathers but still being kind. As disabled people working in the arts, I mean, I'm really interested to know how you relate to all of that Mat, and what all of that is- What all of that means for you right now.

MAT:     Well I mean my- My number one direction of employment is getting the occasional TV acting job because they pay so damn much more than the stage, and because so many more people see them, you know? One of the reasons I became an actor was the activist part. I was under a bus, handcuffed to the exhaust pipe with another fellow disabled demonstrator and I went- You know, things had run on a little late and I was like, I should really be at an audition and my positron, I don't know who it was, was like well what the hell are you doing here? Mat, any of us can be under the bus handcuffed to an exhaust pipe but not many people are going to be able to get into the audition and represent our people onscreen. Your fight is to be- Is to show our representation. And it was a very, you know, a huge moment for me as I realised oh yeah, that's what my activism is, try to have an acting career. So most of the time I spend, you know, nervously trying to get Netflix jobs or whatever it might be, or BBC or what have you. I've had a monstrously strong ego my whole life as a lot of my friends know and, I mean, I do maintain that you kind of need one when you're an actor. You know, ordinary people can't do acting. You have to have a slightly enlarged ego and be able to hold it within your character to do proper acting. It's my belief and maybe it's one of my excuses but- And not- Being too old to be the leading man, which I passionately demanded that I should have the right to be, is no longer there. I'm 63. The last time I didn't get a job it was you're too old mate. We want someone in their 30s. That was a new one for me. It's an awfully good relief because now I can just be character parts. I can play the father, the neighbour, the grocer, the whatever, and not mind and, you know, even if I become the Sam Kydd of disability which only some people will understand if they're old enough, he was in every film. Oh he's there, but he'd only be there for one scene. If that's what I end up being, then that's fine too. I like portraying people in different walks of life to show that disabled people can occupy those walks of life. Wrong word, walks of life, but you know what I'm trying to say. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     One of things I loved most was being the annoying IT nerd in ITVs Maternal which was a beautiful medical vehicle for-

MICHÈLE:           Loved it.

MAT:     Got the best audience rating for an ITV drama that year. Didn't quite make the numbers so they just cancelled it after the first season. But I enjoyed playing this nerdy bloke who was obsessed with the migration of servers on the NHS trust. Really like mind-numbingly boring guy, Steve, and it was super fun to play because I'd never got a chance to play like a comedy nerd before because they would never give that to a disabled person previously. You know, I mean, we used the black parallel. There was a time, I remember, where black people were not on television in my childhood. Except maybe Derek Griffiths. Then there was a time when they could only be goodies. Then there was a time when they were allowed to be baddies again and we also are around to a place where they're fully rounded people. We're following on an actor rate and we're currently at the place where we can only be goodies, which, you know, and I'm really- I'm better at playing more, you know, sneaky types, I think. Less- Not dishonest, but I'm edgy. I like a bit of a rumble and I'll confront anything I don't like and I'd really like to put that into a character. But as I get older that recedes. I'm happy with my lot. You know, the other thing about getting older is you do become a dinosaur. So I was on Silent Witness playing an evil online dark web man who would encourage woeful people, go on do it, commit suicide, I was that guy. And there was lots of typing acting. I'm here going type, type, type, type, and I type with my two little pinkies, so I type- Big cameras right here, doing the close-up at the time and I'm like is there a cut on that? Isn't this a bit weird though? Isn't this weird? Does this look weird everyone? And the cameraman said well, I don't know Mat, is that the way you type? I said yes. He said then it's not weird then is it? And I realised that I was the dinosaur in the room who was objecting to the new visage of fingers on the keyboard so to speak, and they were all down to it. So some things have moved on and it's great. Some things have got worse. I keep trying to navigate it. But in our day we didn't have a Ruth Madeley or an Arthur Hughes.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

[00:10:00]

MAT:     Youngsters coming forward, taking the leads in things and being strong and muscular about their expectations of equality in the acting profession. We didn't have that. 

MICHÈLE:           No we didn't. 

MAT:     And you know, the results are great.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah and I'm thinking of Francesca Mills, I'm thinking of-

MAT:     Oh Franny Mills. I haven't even seen her in Silent Witness yet. She's the one in Silent Witness. Apparently she's very good.

MICHÈLE:           Oh she is just fantastic. Her timing is just exquisite. She's just- I'm a big, big fan.

MAT:     I saw her in two shows and she was electric in both of them. One was a Ramps on the Moon actually. I think it was Our Country's Good was it?

MICHÈLE:           No, she was in The Government Inspector.

MAT:     Yeah, she was great in that.

MICHÈLE:           She was only 19, I think, at the time. 

MAT:     Then I saw her in Rachel Chadkins production of Arthur Miller's The Clerk at The Old Vic where again she was a bit of a scene stealer. You know? 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. She just has that magic something. She's fantastic. 

MAT:     That charisma. I'm just about to set down and write this year, hopefully with Michael Keane, who's a lovely disabled actor-

MICHÈLE:           I know Michael.

MAT:     Yeah, we got along quite well and I did a two-week workshop with The Young Vic- Well they paid for it- About little people, Snow White, the awfulness of the panto, is there a drama there, and I think we're about to write a screenplay that's about that most dreadful production of Snow White that goes wrong. It's a comedy but, you know, some of it's serious stuff because there's- One of the things with my writing is, I always like to- There's always something to do with holding onto a mainstream value that I don't like that I need to see destroyed in my piece of work and I find that panto very painful to watch. 

MICHÈLE:           Right.

MAT:     I've a couple of little people friends who still do that kind of stuff but notwithstanding I find it painful and I'm of the Lisa Hammond opinion about that kind of thing.

MICHÈLE:           Which is what?

MAT:     Which is- I think it's espoused in the new book isn't it, by Rebecca Cokeley, is it by her? Which is you know, we can't- Little people- And I mean I'm only using that phrase because that was given to me as the new phrase, people of restricted growth, short statured performers, are not going to get the meaty, serious acting roles until the panto stuff stops. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     Not seen as, I quote, tiny little play people and see as fully rounded humans with the terrible concerns that we all have. So one of the attempts in that script will be to do that. But you know, we'll see how it goes. I also told Michael Keane that he's a spitting image for Alexander Pope, the second most quoted poet in the world second only to Shakespeare, who was disabled with Michael's impairment. No one knows this.

MICHÈLE:           Wow.

MAT:     The one BBC drama that we haven't had that we need- And did you know that he also was a self-made person and his reworking of the Iliad I think it was wasn't it, earned him so much money that he didn't need a benefactor. Like all other writers back then had benefactors. He didn't. He was just on his own. He was a disabled man, paying for his own work, who was the second most quoted poet in the world and-

MICHÈLE:           Extraordinary.

MAT:     I can't wait to see that one, With Michael Keane obviously starring in it, you know?

MICHÈLE:           Obviously. Well you and Michael need to write it.

MAT:     [Unclear 00:13:13]. 

MICHÈLE:           I want to come back to something I've heard you say, and this isn't throwing quotes at you, right, justify it Mat. It's just I think this is just so beautifully put. You said, I think that the screen image is the sole definer for the general population of disability. And you then went onto say our job as disabled people is to become in a position of enough power to be able to input into that imagery. And I couldn't love that more.

MAT:     I'm amazed I said that. It's quite articulate. I do know that I borrowed that from somebody, the sole defining image. I know that's come from one of our more academic type people. I'm afraid I can't remember who it is. But I mean, it holds doesn't it? I mean if you want proof of that, President Trump serving at McDonalds tipped him over the edge and Trump with that fight, fight, very carefully planned image that copied the flag photo that we've all seen the evidence of, those two things I would say almost could have won him alone. No amount of talking is going to stop that imaging. Imaging is so strong. 

MICHÈLE:           Isn't it?

MAT:     You know, and then we go to- He turns to look at his disability bookcase. Martin F Norden's The Cinema of Isolation from 2009 hasn't been bettered. I mean I bought Film-Ability in Cinema but it wasn't- It didn't have the insights that Martin F Norden has, you know, the- And the controlling gaze and the objectifying gaze that the disabled person in the drama never gets the objectifying gaze. They're always the subject. They are gazed upon. Subjectified. And those kind of changes are fundamental. But I think they're coming, don't you?

MICHÈLE:           I do. I really, really do and it's interesting isn't it, this relates to something you were talking about earlier, I remember the late very great Gary Robson picked me up once on- I said something about what we don't tend to see, I said, is disabled actors playing parts where they just happen to be disabled and Gary picked me up on that and said a disabled person never just happens to be disabled. We always bring that factor of our conditions and being disabled into everything that we do and I absolutely appreciated what he said and he was completely right to pick me up on that in that context. But I saw a short clip of an interview that you and Julie both did where you said I will never play a character that doesn't have short arms and Julie said well, yeah, you could. And isn't it interesting that- I'm blathering on a bit now but it's picking up on a load of themes of things that I've heard you say, both on interviews but also generally as we've been chatting in all the years that we've found ourselves kicking around the same sorts of spaces, about just being in this body, us both beings visibly disabled, just being in this body, we can't help but be in these bodies. And you said something about but at least when I'm onstage I'm controlling how people look at me and I'm controlling what they see. And I resonate with that so strongly and it feels really important.

MAT:     Oh it's one of the main- I mean, you know, I think most people have got used to the sight of an ambulatory- A self ambulating wheelchair user passing them in the street or maybe an electric wheelchair user passing them in the street. They'll have maybe a quick flick of a look but they kind of thing they know what they've seen and there's no need to turn around and look. With me, they're always going to need to check because it's a deformity of the hands. It's very unusual. And it takes a bit- A minute or so to get a handle on it. I understand that. So if that's an inevitability then we should be doing something with that attention and putting it onstage or onscreen and controlling the narrative around the attended moment is vital and I absolutely think that's true and the case, and something that I've pursued a lot of times. And you know, as we go about, I mean, it's unusual for us to have confidence in society full stop. Just simply saying I'm sorry, I asked for this and you gave me that, could you please give me this? Or just being confident in oneself is unusual for most people. Or perhaps because all they've ever seen was us needing to be the recipients of help because non-disabled people wrote the drama etc. But these things are changing and they will change even more. You know, we do need a little bit more- A little bit more. And I'm a bit- One of the things I realised long ago, Michele, and I hold my hand up as a guilty party, I could never be a TV executive, it would drive me crazy, but there aren't any disabled TV executives. There aren't any disabled television commissioning editors, what in America what they call show runners and they're enormously powerful and they have sway over casting, over what happens and you know, and they commission stuff and people commission stuff that they want to see. If they're disabled, they'll commission the stuff we want to make and that hasn't happened yet. So it's still a bit slow. You know, like I'm surprised the Alexander Pope drama hasn't happened, you know what I'm saying, because that's clearly an inevitability. We had the Hogarth one. We've had all the other ones. This is next. And I think they'd rather like that wouldn't they? If someone pitched that now to the Beeb, it's a disabled writer, it's a disability story, we can reclaim it, it's part of British royal and cultural history and disability at the same time, if I was a commissioning editor I'd throw money at that. Costume drama? I mean, you know, I don't know why I'm going on about the Alexander Pope project so much with you today, sorry. 

MICHÈLE:           I think it's the universe giving you a sign. I still think you and Michael should get on it. 

[00:19:21]

MAT:     Well it’s his bag and it's for him to do I think. I want him for the Snow White story and you know, and I'll be very disappointed if we can't get Francesca Mills, Lisa Hammond, Fergal- My mate Dean from up north. It all started when I was doing Richard III and Dean, whose second name has just escaped me, I do beg your partner, I'll find it out for your credits later, a short statured actor, was the only other company member who liked to smoke pot, so from time to time, we'd get together after the show and instead of going down the pub and having a few pints we'd ship off to his bedroom and have a couple of spliffs on the bed and it gets to the philosophical chat, as it does sometimes, once you've got started, and it's like, but silence ensued and he had played- He played- I don't know if you know Richard III but there are two ne'er do wells who are sent to the tower to kill the children and one of them bottles it and the other one does it and takes the post and has a little speech and he had that part but he also had to play the younger nephew- He also had to play a child in it. It was the payoff. Barry Ratters' payoff, and so there we were, we were smoking away and a pause in the conversation and he goes oh well, I suppose it'll be Snow White for me this year and I was like what, what are you talking about? I mean you're in a Shakespeare play with me. Surely we're going to get another play. You're off in the north, you'll be in a northern production of- No, no, you're tripping mate. We don't get any fucking work. It'll just be Snow White. And I was so appalled into my very soul that that would be the prospect. You know, there's a north south divide in stage acting, very much so. So up north it's a lot harder to get good stage work I suppose, especially if you're of restricted growth. But- And then there are still productions of- Traditional productions of Snow White and the seven Ds going around and, you know- Do you know Eugene Gaff is it? Eugene Gaff or Eugene Grant, married to Ivy- Who was Ivy Broadhead, Tom Shakespeare's daughter, they got married, they live up in Gateshead, Newcastle way. He's quite a militant writer about short statured issue stuff and he's like writing about going to the panto is so painful to read. Stayed with me ever since.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. These are really- It's important, isn't it? I mean, lots of non-disabled people, and some disabled people kind of bat it off as though it's trivial and it's unimportant, but all of these things are important because if we're talking about images onscreen it's also the image on the stage isn't it as well?

MAT:     Yeah, yeah.

MICHÈLE:           And so I want to as you, Mat, where you think we're up to in theatre with all of this stuff with- I'm going to use the word, I'm going to say representation, but that feels a very inadequate word. Where do you think we're up to?

MAT:     Well I'll go local. So my local theatre, so the Old Vic and the Young Vic, Kwame just had seven years at the Young Vic, being the artistic director. No disabled people appeared on his stage at all during that time. He blacked the place nice. It was hideously white and he blacked it lovely. It was good. Beneath This Place, and Africa history story about politics and the CIA and independent countries and what have you was a wonderful work out of a theme, 100% black audience with a few white faces dotted in between and I looked around the place and thought nice one, go on mate, you really turned this place around, good job. However, cultural apartheid. I mean like I checked, the last person who was on the Young Vic stage who had a physical disability was in 2001 playing a character called The Somebody in a play called Andorra and that was… me. And I'm so annoyed at them for slapping me in the face every time I go past them for wilfully not representing any of us. And no wonder I got the ten grand research grant for the Snow White thing because obviously, they were obviously panicking and thinking well at least we can say we did something towards disability. And I say this with the great love and expectation of working at the Young Vic in the future but I'm going to call it, say what the hell were you doing Kwame? Like unbelievable. The first production of Twelfth Night, 44 people in it, with a choir of 15 local elderly residents being in the chorus, love it. No one, no one was disabled. I went to see Oliver, Oliver, nobody's ever asked for more the other day, a new production of Oliver. I'd give it a 7/10, great Nancy, great Oliver, not so sure about the Bill, but here's the thing- And Les Miserables, everyone had fucking rickets and shit back in those days didn't they? Are you telling me that none of those chorus, none of them, are allowed to be disabled? No one's allowed to have half an arm or a limp, no one? It's not allowed? But oh, but fucking the- But the Artful Dodger can be trans. Let's all celebrate that. Now I'm not doing a me or them. I'm not earthing it. Okay? But I'm going come on guys. Can we look at some representation here percentage wise? What are we, one in seven? What are trans people? I mean I don't object for them having representation finally, that isn't just hideous. Of course I don't, I celebrate it. But why do we get dropped? It annoys me. 

MICHÈLE:           But how do we avoid the us and them? How do we avoid that and still find-

MAT:     Well I said to Misia Butler on the first night of KAOS which we did- Misia Butler is a trans man, lovely actor, lovely geezer, and I'd had a couple, I'd had a couple of beers and I opened up to him. I said oi, you lot jumped the fucking queue, we were meant to be next. Right? And then I was like what have I just said, I'm so sorry. And he goes Mat, I totally get it. I absolutely get it, I really do, that's your pain speaking. And of course I get it. But ha ha, and he skipped off. No I'm joking. But yeah. So it is hard to be not us and them, but it isn't. It's just easier. At the end of the day, it's cosmetic and I don't mean it's just cosmetic, that would be an awful word to apply to the trans situation, but what I mean is we're not just cosmetic. We're like- You have to put on the brakes when one of us- It's the visual imaging. Yeah. So where are our champions? I don't know. I think we're meant to be the ones- We're meant to be the champions now aren't we Michele? We're meant to be the ones giving sage advice.

MICHÈLE:           I think we are Mat, yeah.

MAT:     And yet I'm still angst, and they're getting all the work. No, I don't mind that, that's just an old thing. I'm fine, I love that younger disabled people are getting all this work. I love it. I love Franny Mills and all these people doing that work stuff, I delight in watching it, I really really do and I want to see more of it. And I know I get bits of work here and there, it's fine. But along the way, I mean, it's tough. Thankfully, people like Ruth Madeley have a sense of history and politics and disability with a big D. So we're okay. It's not like the new stars of stage- Disabled stage or stars of stage and screen have no idea what we've fought for to get them there. They do.

MICHÈLE:           They do yeah, absolutely.

MAT:     And they're grateful for it and they call it when they can, you know? I appreciate that.

MICHÈLE:           I think the us and them thing is really interesting, just to go back to that for a moment. I mean, you used the word cosmetic and I think I understand what you mean by that. There's also something about disability equality and anti-ablism that requires some functional work to be done as well as anything else, and I think that-

MAT:     As well as just cultural work.

MICHÈLE:           As well as the cultural work. Exactly. And I also think that there's something about actually even thinking, I'm catching myself, even as I think about us and them, I think I'm buying into a lie, which is that there's a limited amount of equality to go round and there isn't, of course. 

MAT:     No. It's been sold to us hasn't it?

MICHÈLE:           Yeah it has, it absolutely has.

MAT:     And to go back to disability in theatre in general in this country, because Ramps are fantastic- A fantastic project. I think I saw all of them.

MICHÈLE:           Did you?

MAT:     I think I did. Government Inspector, Our Country's Good, Tommy and the Shakespeare that was-

MICHÈLE:           Much Ado About Nothing.

MAT:     Much Ado. Is that all of them?

MICHÈLE:           Leeds Playhouse did Oliver Twist. Now that tour got cut short by Covid but it's on National Theatre at Home. 

MAT:     Okay I'll give it a look. I'd love to see that-

MICHÈLE:           It's really interesting

MAT:     Absolutely. I always wanted to play Bill Sykes, but there you go. Oh that's good. Now, you know, and they partner theatres, like I will just pick out randomly the Ipswich Wolsey, and I know they've got a good track record with disability for a regional theatre, they really do. They've taken every Graeae show. They wanted to be part of Ramps on the Moon. But I don't know how many disabled actors are now getting cast in plays in the theatres that partnered with Ramps on the Moon after Ramps on the Moon and whether there was a distinct upgrade in the amount of disabled actors used. It feels like possibly there wasn't, but I haven't inspected the numbers so I don't know. But I do know I'm not seeing it in London. And yeah, I do the west end and smaller, but I mean, it is a rare sighting when you see a disabled actor in London, it really is. And I just- I was really annoyed at the last production I saw at The Young Vic which had Anne-Marie Duff in it.

MICHÈLE:           Little Foxes.

MAT:     Little Foxes. Every single one of those characters except, ironically, the disabled one, could have been played by a disabled person. And I said to them that and they said yes, we had a conversation about disability. What does that mean? We had a conversation about disability. Well, did it go, well I'm not fucking using any of them lot. Because that could have been what the conversation was. Well obviously it wasn’t, but I mean, that's as useful as a taxi saying on it's way. But how long will it be, that's what you want to know.

MICHÈLE:           Well we've had a conversation about picking you up.

MAT:     Yes exactly. So I remain frustrated at the lack of visibility of disabled participants in British theatre. What to do about it, other than try and write stuff and be in stuff, you know.

MICHÈLE:           Ramps on the Moon is working differently with theatres  now. We're not making those big shows any more. They did a job of work and they - I believe that we made changes in those theatres for then. I also actually, Mat, I do think that many of those partners are casting disabled - Well, I know, are casting disabled actors. 

[00:30:06]

MAT:     That's wonderful news. That was obviously one of the objectives, you know?

MICHÈLE:           Not enough. Not enough. Let me say that quickly. Not enough. And so I want to ask you Mat, that Ramps on the Moon is still doing- We're still doing our stuff, I'm still working with performing arts organisations, theatres, but we're also working with dance organisations, classical music, what is it I need to do in the last 10 years of my career to make this change happen?

MAT:     Commission some disabled playwrights to write new works specifically for those theatres. Discuss what the play's going to be about with the literary manager and then get to it with a view that this will cast at least X number of disabled people in it and it will be about this kind of thing and have a few of those, like one each per theatre per year might be nice. And you know, generalised casting. I'm sorry, have a quota system. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     The only time it's worked anywhere that we've ever been not there, then been there, a quota system was in between.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah I'm with you on that.

MAT      So I'm afraid that because I don't have any other wonderful ideas and I know that kind of works, one year of a quota system, you know? We have to have seven productions this year, we- With a combination of- You know, with a combined population of 32 parts in seven productions. Five of those people have got to be disabled and that means one lead, one semi-lead and one background, you know, across the board of the casting. And you know, as me and Lisa Hammond found out, you know, put people in the lead who've been playing slightly bigger parts recently. Not people who've just come out of drama school because they can't quite do it. We were given the lead in a romantic drama for BBC2. We did our very best. I can only speak for myself. Would have been a lot better as an actor if I'd had two or three years practice of screen acting before that massive chance. You know? We get these weird project-based blips. Suddenly we're thrust into the limelight, you know? But a slow burn trajectory career would have been nice. Because I never worked again for BBC Drama after that for 11 years I think and when somebody a year later mooted oh, what about Mat Fraser for that role, the head of casting for the BBC at the time went oh no, we've done Mat Fraser. Which means we've done short arms. That's what that meant. I won't tell you her name, even though I know it. I won't give it to you and never, ever will, if you're listening. I'm using my threatening voice and everything.

MICHÈLE:           I noticed. 

MAT:     Anyway, so there we are. And what else? Do I want to see a cleverly reworked version of Whose Line is it Anyway? No. I want to see a new play by a disabled person. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah, yeah.

MAT:     So I think- And then finally, and don't, dear theatres, be tempted to clutch at that one disability project that a director did 15 years ago once, because it's probably not very good. Doing a clever rework of that is not as good, I think, as just spending a bit of money and commissioning and disabled playwright. Amy Trigg is such a good writer and actor. Did you see The Little Big Things, the musical?

MICHÈLE:           No do you know, I didn't. A huge regret of mine.

MAT:     It should be. It was so- And just being in that theatre, the world's most accessible theatre, you know, it was stunning. I went three times.

MICHÈLE:           Did you?

MAT:     I went the first time with Ewan Marshall and we were like oh, this is rather good. [Unclear 00:33:44]. Did I see him wipe away a tear? I couldn't tell. I was in streams. Second time I went just with a box of Kleenex on my own, going okay, this is going to be difficult and I didn't even bother drying my eyes because I was crying- It was so much with relief, that finally someone had put a good disability project with good music onstage that the audience loved. Yes, it's a little saccharine at times but I can forgive that. It's a mainstream musical, of course it bloody is. But oh my God, it was- I was annoyed at my non-disabled friends for not liking it as much as I did.

MICHÈLE:           Right.

MAT:     It brought back all sorts of weird- And I wrote that ridiculously gushing review at Disability Arts Online about it where Colin actually called me and went Mat, what's wrong with you? I've never read anything so positive in my life from you. 

MICHÈLE:           Who are you and what have you done with Mat Fraser?

MAT:     Yeah, thank you, Michele, this is Julie.

MICHÈLE:           Hello Julie, how lovely to meet you.

MAT2:  Nice to meet you too, just delivering a coffee so you can talk faster.

MICHÈLE:           Excellent.

MAT:     And another thing, you know, meeting Julie, doing my radical performance art and I met Julie, and you know, it is better to work with another artist, is I suppose the proof of the pudding there, you know? We fancied each other like mad. We kind of needed an art project to pretend that that's what that was going to be about and not just the fact that we fancied each other, and she said why don't we do Beauty and the Beast and my very first thought was oh my God, how did you think of that and not me? I'm the disabled one. I'm the one who's meant to have thought of that. Because Julie's bloody brilliant at what she does and we ended up making the best bit of work that I've ever been involved in onstage, absolutely. And that was radical disability theatre.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah, my memory is that that wasn't a family show.

MAT:     No it wasn't. Obviously everybody remembers all the sex shapes we did at the end but you know, there was lot going on in that show and I'm very proud of that. That was one of those- You know, like most amazing theatre projects, it's a magical thing comes together. A space suddenly appears in a theatre schedule, a director's suddenly free, you know, suddenly a project that wasn't ever going to see the light of day gets thrust into being and it can be utterly joyous and that was a case of that, all along the way, every one- Every time something happened it was like one of those rare, beautiful things.

MICHÈLE:           What I love about what you just said is that's got nothing to do with you being a disabled person. That's got nothing to do with issues or politics, or activism. That's just being a jobbing theatre maker.

MAT:     Yeah, yeah. An I love making theatre. It's just annoying that the only time we get to be in things is things that we've helped make. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     I just want to get cast in stuff. I want, you know- To be fair, my agent did just- I did just get an audition which I didn't do, for the older man in Hadestown. 

MICHÈLE:           Oh wow.

MAT:     I don't think I could physically take 10 shows a week.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     West End, in a musical that I don't think is any good. It would drive me bonkers. I know what I'm like. My quality of life is way too important to me now Michele, to do that. But it was amazing to be offered. You know, risks are definitely- You know, the risks happen in regional theatre first, then on the stage, then on the TV and maybe one day in feature films. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     That people are still playing us. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. We can't even play ourselves let alone play parts that aren't written to be-

MAT:     Not yet, not yet. I still auditioned for a Warner Bros feature film. Not a bad part, comedy part. I won't get it. I just sense that I won't get it, although I tried hard in the audition. But you know, things are very- But that was the first ever in my whole career, ever. Everything's been telly, you know, and television's got much better and they're doing better still and I'm sure those commissioning editors will come through and these programmes will happen over the next five to ten years. A lot of the writers from CripTales- That was one of the reasons we did CripTales- For any listeners who don't remember, it was a series of six monologues at 10 minutes each, ish, each one written for a disabled actor by a disabled writer, directed by a disabled director. It was a proper, proper crip project. And the reason- One of the reasons we did that was to air six different disabled writers writing to television people and went on with a project called Seven Deadly Sins that never got commissioned, but pitched it a lot to all the TV companies. And there was a couple of example scripts in there, one of which was by Amy Trigg, and everyone who came back was like my God, that script's good isn't? She's- And she's now just finished writing with Jack Thorne on one of his new dramas and Annalisa Dinnella, that was the impaired- Or blind now, I think, writer, who wrote for some of Sex Education, who's off in mainstream telly just writing- Being a jobbing writer, writing episode five of this and episode four of that and being used hither and thither and not always having to insert a blind character into everything, you know? And I think that's really healthy because, you know, the reality of the industry is, we're a risk to them. They don't trust us. They think they're going to lose their job if they let us do what we want to do. But if writers like Annalisa and Amy start getting awards for writing basic stuff that isn't necessarily- Then they might be allowed to bring their project to the table and get it commissioned. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah exactly

MAT:     And that- And then those parts will be good hopefully.

MICHÈLE:           That writing bit is the bit- Is one of the bits that we're really struggling with in theatre I think. I think the casting is starting to happen. It really, really is. And I think you're right, I think that's partly about what's happened recently in Ramps on the Moon. I think casting has started to- Is starting to come good. But the writing, the commissioning still has a very long way to go. You said- I'm going- This is the last one of your quotes that I'm going to throw at you. This is from an email you sent me actually. You talk about the need for, or the lack of good disability theatre. Muscular, professional, accomplished theatre that persuades the masses not just like-minded individuals. And I read that in that short email that you sent me and I just thought yes, that's what it is. That's what I've been trying to articulate. This is not just for like-minded individuals, liberal minded individuals. We need to be making theatre that appeals to the masses.

[00:40:03]

MAT:     Yeah, we do. We do. 

MICHÈLE:           When was the last time you saw a piece of theatre with a disabled person that did that?

MAT:     Well, Tommy probably. 

MICHÈLE:           Tommy was good wasn't it?

MAT:     I was very disappointed that benefactors couldn't be found to push that into the West End. I thought with a little push and a bit of first year assistance subsidy that could have really gone over the edge and changed things a lot. And it was like of all the shows- And I enjoyed them all, that was the contender that could have made it into the West End I felt.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. It got close.

MAT:     I know, I know. I heard rumours and stuff. It was the one I was gutted that I wasn't in as the drummer. You know, I am a drummer as well and I, you know, I- One of my happiest ever memories is being in Reasons to Be Cheerful, the musical, as the drummer because that was lovely. But yeah, that muscular theatre, and we're getting into dodgy territory here because everyone's going to listen. But I feel that Ramps, Graeae, a few other people, could be trying a little harder to provide that kind of muscular theatre. But I understand. The funding's not there for that. They've got all these sort of more quick fix, easier solutions, you know, more populist, obvious things to do with disability that keep our profile on the agenda. Stuff like that and faith-based things and all manner of things but I'm not seeing the kind of stuff that I've just talked about, you know?. So you know, I'm always frustrated and I spend half my time in America as well, you know? Recently in America I toured two stonking plays, so one was a four-hander, lots of scenes of two, two-hander scenes, two people in each scene. In each one a non-disabled and a disabled person. Cost of living. There we go. One is a university guy who's attending university and needs a PA and he's interviewing young women to be his PA. There's a fully-assisted, fully nude shower in the middle of the play. But they're talking about other things as that happens. In the other set of duologues, the women gets completely naked and is in a bath. It's not salacious nudity, it's functional, matter of fact nudity. Man, do I celebrate it when disabled people take their clothes off onstage. It's literally my favourite thing Michele, especially in the mainstream environment where it's not done as hey I'm sexy, but just it's what's happen- It's our life. Deal guys, deal. And I look round and, you know, it was an okay play by a non-disabled person. An ally. It was an okay play by an ally. And I looked round and everyone was leaning in, in the packed Broadway theatre. Leaning in. They're thirsty. Disabled actors are so thirsty and hungry for this subject matter. Francesca Martinez's one at the National. Again, there's a scene where two disabled women argue about how to be a disabled woman, with medium success. But I look round and every person- All of them I'd probably say, had leant right forward. They were sucking in this new thing that they were seeing and loving it because they'd never seen it before. This is an untapped vein of theatrical amazingness that theatre makers and producers seem to be unaware of. It's very strange. And you know, a lot of times, something's so overdue that by the time something comes it's not quite the ideal solution but it's something and it's great. And then the other thing I saw, which was off Broadway, was a play- So there's four of us and we all go to plays and musicals, I'm the only disabled one, not that it matters, they're all allies. And you know, we've seen this, we've seen that and I'm like guys, I'm getting a little frustrated that I'm not seeing myself here. Getting a bit bitter, you know, I'm doing a post-show dinner analysis of the play we've just seen. I'm like grumbling a lot. We need something disabled to offset. Saw something that just had two wheelchairs on the poster instead of a word. I'm like I'm buying four tickets, we're going to that. I get there. It's about people with assisted technology talking dating and I'm like oh God. I'm in the foyer. I'm like oh God. Is it going to be a drama like that. And it just goes to prove that good writing can solve anything at all. It is so good. Kevin Bacon's wife was in it, Mrs Bacon. I kept singing ma, ma, ma, ma Bacon all the way for no reason at all. I was just happy at having seen this show that famous actors had put themselves in because they thought it was good. Not as a virtue signal but because it was good and it was really well done. It was a class thing. One of the guys was kind of rich and the other one- And so had everything he needed and the other one wasn't and they were dating and there was a little bit of cheating by actors, you know. And sometimes, you know, as often with assisted technology talking dramas, somehow three-quarters of the way through there's an impromptu speech that might not have been possible at the beginning when they were explaining how you have to type in everything. But of course, a lot of people know- Have a lot of stuff keyed in, because they have to say the same things over and over again, and so they have those phrases ready to go and young Madison was in that one and it was a wonderful, wonderful play and everyone really enjoyed it. So things- I'm not quite seeing that in Britain yet. But I imagine that play would transfer really easily and would be great. So things are slowly changing. One doesn't like it- It's just I've been waiting for so long as have you Michele that it's not enough and I want more. I want one of us to win the Oliviers. Well of course, Liz did in fact win an Olivier. 

MICHÈLE:           Liz did.

MAT:     Which she teased me about in the play we did together, Unspeakable Conversations. You don't have an Olivier do you Mat? I saw that A Normal Heart, you know? And there was Liz Carr, wheelchair using actress, playing a woman who was a wheelchair user in real life who was also the only champion of the people who had AIDS in New York who needed the funding at the mayor's office, so she had the best part, she had the best speech in the play and she sort of said oh I only won that Olivier because of that speech Mat. And that's absolutely not the case. She won it because she was bloody brilliant in it. And then I met Sharma, the director- I know I'm being non-sequitous and I apologise, brought The Boy With Two Hearts, that wonderful immigration story. I mean God that was good, it was so good, and I'm really excited by Amit who's got a real career going on, and he clearly wants to go places and is and I really inspect him for that, you know? I was overjoyed. I just yelped for joy in the lift at Lambeth North because of the new posters about the shows and there was this big West End show and I was looking- Directed by Amit Sharma and I was like wow, he's got his first West End. This is great. He's going to be the disabled Jamie Lloyd. But good. Sorry

MICHÈLE:           But do you know, we need to finish in a minute, but it's-

MAT:     It's been a rant. I was saying, whatever you do, show Michele that you're now- You're calm now and you're reasonable.

MICHÈLE:           Oh no, don't do that Mat. Don't do that. It's a dual edged sword isn't it Mat, because you yelped in a lift in the underground and we get excited. But they're crumbs under the table aren't they?

MAT:     Yes they are.

MICHÈLE:           The fact that that's- I mean we celebrate them and I don't want to appear bitter and twisted or anything, but you know, we want more to celebrate. I want not to celebrate those tiny wins. That's not tiny, but-

MAT:     Oh God wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to celebrate that. I mean maybe in 20 years' time, but the time I'm 83, maybe that'll be going on. I mean thing- I did imagine when I started acting at 37 that things would have moved on a little quicker than they have, so one can't really expect what one wants but maybe half of what you want. I'd like there to be a David Jason with a disability. I'd like there to be a Sarah Lancashire with a disability. An actress and an actor that people love in their living room, it doesn't matter what they're doing. They just like them in things. We need a few of them, don't we? Gary could have so easily become one of them.

MICHÈLE:           Gary could have- Yeah, he was- 

MAT:     He had that, oh I can relax with a cup of tea with that voice.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     You know, he had that calmness to him.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah he really did. 

MAT:     Did you see him play the copper on Silent Witness?

MICHÈLE:           I did.

MAT:     I loved that. And the bit where they brought in the access to work block parade. That was really good. No, but we need that I think. I mean I really appreciate that you've gone into the jobs you've got but for me you were always one of the better charismatic performers who was really good at what they did and had that innate confidence that wasn't showing off confidence, it was just a functional confidence because you could do the job and you knew it and didn't have to go on proving it, you just got on with it and you were really- I say were, I don't know if you're still doing it now, but you know, you- I think- I imagine you're a fantastic actor.

MICHÈLE:           Well that's very kind.

[00:49:40]

MAT:     And you know, you've got a great face. You're a sort of- You are the things that you are. You know, we're neither of us young any more, you've got the chunky knit going on, you've got comfort. You've got domesticated, non-heterosexual person comfort around you. Who wouldn't want to have a cup of tea and a biscuit with you.

MICHÈLE:           Well that's very-

MAT:     The way you are now. The way you are now, with the microphone and everything. I know you can turn it on and all the other things but I'm like we need people like that. We need- And I'm not that person. I'm too edgy and stuff I'd be asked all the time and, you know, I'm that person. But we do need those things, they're comfort.

MICHÈLE:           I think you're so right. The David Jasons, the Sarah Lancashire, the Nicola Walkers, all of those wonderful, wonderful homely, safe, can be edgy but ultimately safe performers in our living rooms.

MAT:     I talk to commissioning editors all the time on TV and you know what they want, the golden ticket dream, is a returning drama with four or five central characters, another six or seven peripherals, maybe three of these characters, maybe two of the principles and one of the peripherals or vice versa, are disabled and it just keeps returning and you've got the miser, you've got the show off, you've got the sexy one, you've got the quiet one and as each situation of series two and three comes on, you go oh, how's he going to react to this.

MICHÈLE:           Yeah.

MAT:     Like we know the routines. We just want to watch this person we know look at another thing That returning series that can go on for ever and ever. That's what they want. But no one's come up with it yet. 

MICHÈLE:           And there is some stonkingly good drama on the television at the moment. Really good. You look at Apple TV, you look at Netflix, there's some really, really good drama. 

MAT:     I spend all of my time trying to write like that and trying to do that, you know.

MICHÈLE:           It'll happen.

MAT:     Yeah, it will. I mean-

MICHÈLE:           Let's do this again when we are 83 Mat, maybe things'll be different.

MAT:     Maybe. But to conclude, although we're not concluding, I am happy with my lot comparatively. I've been able to exercise my politics and social angst and sense of injustice in the work that I do and have had limited visibility doing that and that has slated the worst of my fury and sense of injustice. It's not enough. But it's enough to grab onto to hope for more and pursue and that's what I will continue to do whilst waiting- I mean I don't know about you but a week doesn't go past when I don't talk to a student about disability casting or, you know- I'm always there for the interview and now these people are working in television. Come on guys, where- You know, I helped you out. 

MICHÈLE:           All right.

MAT:     But there we go. I mean, there are certain things I'm never going to be in. I'm never going to be in a play at The Young Vic because it's down the road. I'm never going to be in Dr Who, because I really wanted to be in Dr Who. You don't get the things you really want, you get the other thing. The learn was actually the thing you should have done in the first place and it's-

MICHÈLE:           Yeah yeah exactly. Such a great place to finish. Mat Fraser thank you so much for spending this time chatting with me. I've really loved catching up with you. I was trying to remember the first time we met and I can't remember when it was but it certainly was the 90s. The early, early 90s. So it's brilliant to catch up with you again. Thank you for sharing your views, your opinions, your experiences and yeah, great to chat with you thank you so much.

MAT:     You too Michele, and lots of love to you and to everybody listening.

MICHÈLE:           Thanks Mat. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and to let us know what you think. Thanks to Podtalk, our podcast production company. Technical production and editing by Mark Mason, executive production by Zanna Hornby.

[Audio ends: 00:53:28]

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