Ep 10: Amy Trigg, actor, writer and Olivier Awards winner joins the conversation

Michèle Taylor talks to Amy Trigg, actor, writer and comedian, as well as Olivier Awards Winner in 2024 for Best Actress in a Supporting Role in a Musical for 'The Little Big Things'.

Amy talks about how representation has improved greatly on the screen over the last few years - and that she is now auditioning for roles that are not specifically for disabled actors, the only option available to her a few years ago. 

Amy talks about her career to date, her writing as a passion of hers, and she gives us her thoughts on bringing more disabled people into 'the room' from the creation of productions to manage expectations of budgets to avoid unexpected costs for access.

Thank you Amy for such a brilliant and interesting conversation.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor.

Michèle Taylor, is a disability equality trainer and consultant, and has been Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon since the Consortium was convened. For the 10 years, she has been supporting the partner theatres to embed disability equality and anti-ableism into their organisations and to realise their ambitions around elevating disabled people across the mainstream industry. In 2022 Michèle was honoured with an MBE For Services to Theatre and Disabled People.

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk

Transcript

   CONFIDENTIAL

Date Transcribed:           26th April 2025

Interviewer(s):                Michèle Taylor

Respondent(s):               Amy Trigg

MICHÈLE            Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I'm Michele Taylor, director for change, and I work to elevate the place of disabled people in the mainstream cultural sector. In this second series of the podcast I've chatted with some brilliant disabled actors as well as non-disabled allies from arts organisations who, with the support of Ramps on the Moon, are embedding anti-ableism into the work they do. Each episode makes sense on its own, but do go back and listen to the earlier episodes if you haven't already. Join us, as we change the world. Welcome to this next episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. Once again, I feel just so enormously privileged to be sitting down to chat with someone I have long admired and whose work I absolutely love. I've tried very hard, but I haven't found anyone who has a single bad thing to say about this person. I am welcoming Amy Trigg today. So hi Amy, and thank you for joining us this lunchtime. 

AMY      Hello, yeah it's lovely, thank you for having me.

MICHÈLE            Oh it's an absolute pleasure. Amy, tell us about who you are, what you do, where you've come from. Just talk to us about your life.

AMY      Yeah well, yeah, my name's Amy Trigg. I am born and raised in Essex I was born with spina bifida so wheelchair user, and I'm an actor and writer. Started off as an actor, did the kind of almost, I want to say, classic route into drama school but I kind of feel weird saying that because there's so many routes into the industry, but you know, when I was 18 I think I was told you have to go to drama school and do this and do that to get in. So I did that, did the whole drama school thing and then got into writing down the line because I think I never felt really smart enough before, and then it got to a point where I was like oh sod it, I'll just do it anyway. 

MICHÈLE            You never felt smart enough, what do you mean?

AMY      Yeah, well I- Because I always loved- I think a lot of people in this industry just always love storytelling, you know, like growing up you always wanted to tell stories, so as well as performing stories from- Like plays for my parents and stuff when I was little, I wrote all the plays and I wrote loads of poems and I was always writing and it just was a really positive outlet for me in the same way that acting was. It was a bit of escapism and imagination when you can maybe leave a certain room, like bedrest, operations, stuff like that, so it was a real kind of tool for me. And then it was just at secondary school maybe, I missed a lot of school because of, you know, operations and all that, and- Maybe it was before secondary school. I remember coming back and everyone had learned what adjectives and verbs and nouns and all these things were and I was sat there thinking oh I've missed something. Like I haven't caught up. And I just didn't say anything. I was too embarrassed to be like oh I don't understand and that happened a couple of times, despite- I had amazing teachers, especially in secondary school. Like teachers would come and like really keep me up to date and I managed to do well at school thanks to them, but I was too embarrassed to say oh, I've missed some things and it just made me feel a little bit behind.

MICHÈLE            What really shocks me about that is that nobody took the time- Well, A to notice what you'd missed but also to sit you down and say it doesn't really matter. I checked some verbs and nouns and parsing sentences, I mean it doesn't matter does it?

AMY      It doesn't, although do you know what? I did have to learn at one point because that must have been before secondary school because we knew what they were in secondary school, well most people did. I think I was still kind of- I learned what a pronoun was and then just kind of like dug into that in every essay. Oh, this is an interesting use of a first pronoun or whatever. And then when I got to drama school we were doing this game where they were like yeah, all about verbs and nouns and like adjectives and I was sat in the corner. Right, okay, I need to go home and get on Google and actually learn what these all are and be able to explain it. So that's what I did.

MICHÈLE            So you started writing?

AMY      Yeah. And I got into writing mainly because when I left drama school there just weren't many roles out there as an actor and I was quite frustrating at not getting in rooms and the rooms I was getting in, they kind of weren't lighting the spark even, let alone a flame, and I was just a bit tired of- It's a classic thing. You hear so many people say it. Tired of playing the victim or the villain where everything is associated to disability, or even comedies where every single line or every other line is a joke or something related to a wheelchair or a disability and I thought this isn't what I want to do for like the rest of my life. I don't know how long I'll last really if this is what I carry on doing, because it was kind of dampening my spirit a little bit and also just realistically, it's hard to maintain a career when there's so little. So I was having to spend a lot more time, you know, working in my office job at the time and, you know, teaching which I loved. I thought there must be a way of me scratching this itch myself. So I got into improv and started doing lots of improv courses. I loved it because also it forced me to like meet other people and be a bit more sociable. And then got into sketch writing from that and then stand up comedy followed on, and then got invited to do like speeches and talks and panel things off the back of stand up which led me to essay writing. I wrote an essay for a book called Feminists Don't Wear Pink, and realised I quite liked it. It kind of, yeah, it reminds me how much I enjoyed writing and redrafting. I think that's one of my fave- That's kind of I think maybe a rare thing for a writer to say but I love redrafting. Because sometimes I say things and I'm like God, I wish I could just have a second go at that, and I get to do that with writing.

MICHÈLE            Well that is unusual isn't it? To want to go back to what they've written and craft it some more and critique it and- Wow that is unusual. Brilliant. That's quite the journey. But let's go back to drama school. Really interested to know what was going on in your head when you applied for drama school, when you were at drama school. Were you in any sense aware of being- Yeah, I'm going to use the word, a pioneer as a wheelchair user at drama school? Was that something you were very conscious of or no?

AMY      I think when I was looking into going to drama school I didn't have that word in my head. I think the word that was in my head was other, essentially. It was this thing of having my heart set on auditioning for lots of drama schools and realising that a lot of them weren't accessible and I even- I gave it a good go, like, for some of them. I went to ones where you had to use the goods lift to get in and you always had to have a member of staff with you and things like that. And it just wasn't right. And I think I was just so determined to give it a go, I knew I'd regret it if I didn't give it a go, auditioning. So I really went for it and I got help with like my Shakespeare monologues because I'd never done any kind of Shakespeare outside of English lessons at that point, and was really lucky. Like this local teacher who'd never taught me but was a drama teacher at my school, Anne May, she like stepped in and she was amazing. I originally applied for all musical theatre courses and maybe a couple of acting courses and then someone made a comment about how I probably wouldn't be quite right for musical theatre. It really hit me, and I thought maybe I'm making a big mistake here so I changed all of my applications to the acting course except for one, which was Mountview which I kind of had my heart set on. I've always loved theatre and going to shows and generally I'd look in like the programmes and see where everyone trained and a lot of people I really respected and admired their work like trained at Mountview. So I kept that. I did acting and musical theatre at Mountview, both auditions, and got into both of them. So I had to make a decision and I thought well, why not, let's do musical theatre.

MICHÈLE            And where do you think that comment came from, from that person who said that it might not be quite right for you or you might not be quite right for it?

AMY      Yeah, I think they- They were in the industry and had been through the drama school route and at that time- I mean, things have changed now I think, but at that time, there was this thing of you had to fit a certain image, or had to fit a certain brief to be successful in that, and you know, a lot of drama schools- Less so now, but would strip you down to almost neutral, or their neutral, and then build you up again and add in your personality a bit, but selecting things. And of course, for me, you know, my neutral was different to everyone else's neutral that was in those rooms. So I was never going to really fit that. I think that's what they were thinking. And you know what? I kind of- I get what they mean, which is painful to say, that realistically, you know, it was hard. Like, going- My three years at Mountview, I had amazing teaching staff who like made it so enjoyable and so thorough and they really didn't go- They weren't kind of half arsed with it. They were like if you're going to learn this, you're going to learn it. And like when people were doing tap they were like you're going to learn to- You're going to learn how to tap with your hands and so you could almost teach tap but not necessarily do it with your feet. So they were really thorough and I really, like, appreciated that. And I guess when I was there I was starting to realise that maybe the word pioneer was coming in. Not only were the teachers kind of realising that things were possible, but also the building was more accessible. Like, there was no lift at Mountview in the main building at the time. So the musical theatre building was kind of accessible but the accessible loo was on another floor that wasn't owned by Mountview, so I got to know, like, people in those offices well. But they fit a lift into the main building by the end of my first term, I believe, so that I could access the library, the canteen, and Alexander technique lessons. And that's amazing, because then that was in place. You know? It was a big learning curve for them and me. It was just a bit of a bump in the third year and going into the industry where I realised maybe what that person who had made that comment when I was auditioning had meant. Because truly, I left drama school, and no doors were even ajar. I think I had one musical theatre audition but even that, it just- You know, when you go into an audition and you know it's not quite right? And I don't know whether it was a tick box thing or what, or whether they were just trying but it just, it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't quite right. And so I did end up doing mostly TV and things. 

[00:10:30]

MICHÈLE            What was that year?

AMY      2013. 

MICHÈLE            2013. And whilst you were at drama school and you became aware of this word, or the kind of idea of being a pioneer, did you feel that as a pressure? Did you feel any pressure, given that the staff were working hard, that they weren't letting you off, for want of a better phrase, my phrase not yours, did that feel a pressure at all?

AMY      I don't think I felt the pressure of being a pioneer at that point really. Like, I was aware that things were maybe changing and I was changing some mindsets, but I don't- I think I was so hyperfocused on what I was doing it wasn't really, you know, part of what I was thinking. But yeah, there was- I mean there was a pressure to get it right at drama school, you know? People were putting a lot of faith in me and trying a lot of things, and I think I did have that thought of if I mess this up then is it going to affect the next person? I did have that thought in those three years and I think there are things that I would maybe do differently, and people that I know who are wheelchair users who have gone to drama school since I left and we've kind- They've approached me and kind of asked for some advice. I have kind of been quite honest with them, because I remember there was one dance class and I was always trying desperately to keep up with everyone, because it makes sense, because when I went to dance calls- Dance calls in the real world, someone wasn’t going to be adapting it for me. And I knew that in those certain dance calls, so I had to learn how to keep up with the rest and that was a skill that they gave me and it paid off. Like it was very, very useful. And it's tricky isn't it? Because obviously now there is kind of an argument of well, if you're in that call it should be adapted for you which I agree with, but it was very different in 2013. But yeah, I remember doing this dance class when I was trying desperately to keep up with everyone and I think it was something like Matthew Bourne choreography, to give you an idea of like, it was like turns and speed and kind of like quick, and I was trying and they were like come on Amy, like you've got to keep up, you've got to keep up, you're behind and I was like okay, okay, okay, and I was going- I was sweating, like I was a mess. And then I jammed my thumb into like a part of my wheelchair and it was this massive- It was a blood blister but it was also bleeding and I just kind of went oh, I think I need to leave, and they were like go, go, go. And after that I thought I think might have pushed myself a little bit too far. And I think that's one thing I might change if I ever did it again or was giving advice. I'd be like push yourself but don't push yourself too far to keep up with other people because if that's sustainable for you, what's the point in like, you know, ruining your body for five minutes of yay, I did it. 

MICHÈLE            Yeah, but you couldn't do it in a show for an entire show?

AMY      Not that- Blooming heck no, I'd be on the floor.

MICHÈLE            Exactly. I mean it is interesting isn't it, there's a theme in lots of conversations I find myself having around this stuff, about the freedom to fail being such a privilege and being one of the things that we really need to be fighting for in terms of anti-ableism is the freedom to fail along with anybody else. And that's partly about we just need to be free to fail as human beings. We need to be free not to get it right all the time. But it's also about the creative process isn't it? That if you're preventing yourself from failing, if you're shying away from failure all the time, you're not going to get to that edge and it's at the edge where it all happens isn't it?

AMY      Oh yeah. Yeah. No totally. And I think I have felt that at certain points in my life but one thing I'm kind of grateful for, and maybe I did get this from doing the drama school route and, you know, being given harsh critiques and stuff like that, and getting it wrong and trying again, is I'm kind of okay with making mistakes. There's a quote that I like. There are no mistakes, only opportunities. Which, when I used to teach, like a lot of the students rolled their eyes at me and kind of laughed, but I was like it's true isn't it? But I think that's really helped me. Especially with acting and writing, you know. I'm not too afraid to fail and I also accept rejection quite well.

MICHÈLE            Right.

AMY      But it is true there is that pressure in certain rooms where you think right, if I do mess this up is this going to say something for the next person? And I feel it with really mundane things like access funding and I think if we don't get this funding right, if we don't get this right and prove it's not going to cost a company an arm and a leg to like, you know, get just basic access needs, then is that going to put them off using access funding and, you know, finding someone in the future, and I feel like that's the greatest pressure for me at the moment that I feel.

MICHÈLE            Say a bit more about that.

AMY      Well I think, you know, working for different companies- Because I've worked with a mix of companies. Some companies like Ramps on the Moon, who have had like experience and know kind of access to work exists and know this exists and know kind of the general cost of maybe you know, having an interpreter in the room, etc etc. But then I've also worked for quite a few companies who haven't had that experience and haven't, yeah, got that knowledge or awareness. So it ends up becoming kind of the actor's job or the creator's job to go in and be like this funding is available. If you do it this way you can get this much money back, it's not going to cost- Don't be scared to employ someone who is- Who has access needs, because you're worried about the extra cost. But of course, if it doesn’t' go to plan, if you have- If that money isn't- If they don't get that money back for whatever reason you think oh no, is that going to affect them in the future? And I realise that's where, you know, access coordinators and people like that come in and really knowing their stuff and making sure that isn't the case, but yeah, it's a fear that goes across, you know, TV, stage, film, everything. It's something that I'm very conscious of at the moment and unfortunately it is obviously something  I didn't really learn much about at drama school. I think I had a couple of people come in, because something that was great that Mountview did is they gave me one on one sessions, so they took me out of, I think, a weekly tap class. So there were a few tap dance classes in the week and I got taken out of one of them to do one on one sessions with creatives and basically learned different dance techniques with them and worked out how to adapt it. And I remember a couple of them who- I couple of the teachers who came in were disabled and they were advising me and they were like, are you aware of Access to Work? And I was like no. 

MICHÈLE            Oh wow.

AMY      So they covered that bit of education. But I think that's something that I hope drama schools and agents and anyone who might have, you know, close connections with early career actors and artists, they're passing that knowledge on because it was certainly something that I didn't understand at the beginning.

MICHÈLE            Yeah, yeah. 

AMY      And it has a big knock-on effect. Like you say, like failure is so scary for a lot of people, especially when it's financial. And there is that big thing hanging over our heads, where we want to scream and be like it doesn’t have to cost the world to employ us.

MICHÈLE            But maybe as well, just to play devil's advocate, maybe we do need more conversations where we say yeah, it might. It might cost more, and?

AMY      Yeah, no, you're totally right. And- But I think that kind of is the difference between those companies who have experience in that and the companies who don't. Because especially with- Maybe it's different for if- For creatives because they're in earlier on in the game, because I agree, like that's an ideal world isn't it? But if you're an actor who is kind of coming on quite late in the process because, I mean, we know how late auditions happen, budgets are set, they've already been- Half of it's already been spent. The rest of, you know, deposits are down and there is that panic then. Well, where do we find this money if it is going to cost more? Whereas that's the benefit of working for companies and- Or having creatives involved from the very beginning who have that understanding because they're going to be the ones who say well, shall we like put a pocket aside because generally, you know, this is might cost a bit more but if we, you know, budget it early on then it's not going to be a disaster for you.

MICHÈLE            It's not rocket science is it, to talk to production companies, theatre organisations, other performing arts companies who are making work and say just have an access budget. 

AMY      I totally agree. And I just hope that this is the kind of change that happens in the next few years, that the kind of commercial side of the, you know, theatre catches up with people who are already doing it very well and have been doing it very well for many years and have that awareness. Like those two joining together would be a bit of a dream and make things a lot easier for everyone. Because also, it just makes sense doesn't it? Because like- Oh I mean I could go on about this for a while, but you never know when you're going to need a bit of extra budget for access. Like someone could break their leg. Anything. A contingency access budget even if you don't need it in the first place. 

MICHÈLE            It makes no sense does it, to have a budget that has no flex?

AMY      Yeah, yeah, and I mean it's hard, because I'm not a producer so I don't, you know- I realise that- Being in some conversations with people, especially with my writing hat on, kind of being in more of those conversations I do recognise it's tricky, you know?

MICHÈLE            And especially at the moment of course.

[00:20:06]

AMY      Yeah, but it's just, yeah, it's something I'm very conscious of. One thing that I was really conscious of when I was- When I graduated from Mountview is I was going into auditions quite frequently, and I know a lot of people can relate to this, in that you'd go in and they'd be auditioning for a character and you didn't really know any characteristics about the character. Male, female, age, or non-binary, or like background. Nothing really apart from the fact that they were going to be some form of- They were going to be disabled in some way, whether that was deaf, disabled, neurodiverse, blind- They had no idea. So you went into these rooms and just surrounded by anyone and everyone and you'd all go in and read the same scene and then they'd make a decision and that happens less so now, which I'm pleased about because it just felt like they were auditioning your disability, not your acting credentials or anything. But at the time I was kind of- I was kind of like oh this is ridiculous. I need to focus on a character. And now, I have this fear when it's still- I see it still happening, that if they've got money in their minds, which everyone does at the moment in this industry, everyone does. And rightly so, it's tricky. Are they going to be less likely to go for someone who has more access needs than someone who doesn't? Because for me, I obviously need certain things like access, so an accessible trailer, I need, you know, maybe a different form of transport, things like that. So I'm a little bit more expensive maybe, if you look at it like that. Or how someone may see it, to someone who doesn't need that. But then I'm in that- But then there's people kind of after me who have even greater, like, needs or need an interpreter. And for a producer or someone who's maybe not in the know and not knowing about funding, that will scare them and are they automatically going to go for- It sounds awful, the cheapest option. The cheapest disability. And it feels very crude to talk about and I think there's kind of- It sounds very blunt and I can't think of a more articulate, gentle way of saying it, but you see it happening and it worries me about the future because you don't- You don't- You want it- You don't want anything to become an echo chamber, particularly when, I think, disability is involved. You kind of want a really nice cake with all the ingredients. That's what you want. 

MICHÈLE            I mean I think you're absolutely right and I think we do need to be having those conversations. I mean, I've been working in the area of disability in the arts for about 35 years now. More actually. And one of the things that I'm consistently aware of all the time is- And there is no euphemistic way to put it, I'm an easy disabled person to employ. Really easy. And really cheap. You know? And I have a long- I am a cheap lay, yeah, if anybody's interested, I am a cheap lay for sure and I have an access to work budget which is perfectly adequate. I'm extremely fortunate. It covers the stuff that I need and sometimes I feel really guilty about that. 

AMY      Yeah. Hard to relate yeah.

MICHÈLE            It's tough isn't it? 

AMY      Yeah it really is.

MICHÈLE            And you say, you know, there's no easy or gentle way to put it but honestly, like you say, if you're the producer you're looking at numbers on a page or in spreadsheet and if employing Amy is going to cost X and employing Michele is going to cost X minus three and employing somebody else is X plus four, then who are you going to go for?

AMY      Yeah. And it's-

MICHÈLE            And it's not even all other things being equal because it might be yeah, Amy's better but do you know what? Actually, Michele's good enough. 

AMY      Yeah, but it's even that thing of like, even if everyone is kind of even but one person suits the character more they'll just change the character at that point because that's why they're kind of doing those auditions in that way, so it's more bendable, well, flexible. Yeah, it's a really tricky thing and I mean it- Money is one thing and then obviously physical access is another because you also- You know, if we're talking about theatre for instance, most theatres aren't accessible to a lot of people and are accessible well, to a lot more. But that comes into play as well, doesn't it?

MICHÈLE            Absolutely. Let's talk about change. So you came out of drama school in 2013. 

AMY      Yeah.

MICHÈLE            It's now 2025. What change have you personally experienced in those 12 years? I'm assuming there is some. I'm really hoping there is some.

AMY      Well the good news is yeah, I think there's been loads. Honestly. It feels like a completely different landscape to my first few years out of drama school.

MICHÈLE            Does it?

AMY      Oh yeah. I mean, I was struggling when- When I left, I was really lucky, I got an agent straight from my showcase, third year showcase, who I'm still with and Lee was like knocking on all these doors, trying to get me into auditions and was just getting kind of nos, and we couldn't understand why there were these roles, especially on TV, where disability wasn't mentioned but it was irrelevant but they were like oh no, we can't see Amy because this role isn't for a wheelchair user and we would kind of be like, but she's a receptionist behind a desk kind of thing. And now, I think that's one thing that has really changed. I find myself playing a lot of receptionists. But that's a positive change because I mean I couldn't get seen for- I was only being seen for roles that were specifically written for a disabled actor, or a disabled character rather. Whereas now I get seen for roles that haven't specified whether the character is disabled or not.

MICHÈLE            You're specifically talking screen based roles now, aren't you?

AMY      I guess there's been a couple- A few theatre- I've played a few theatre roles that haven't been specifically kind of disabled when I was with- At the RSC, doing Shakespeare, because I mean Shakespeare's moved on loads since- I mean when I was growing up I don't remember seeing any like deaf or disabled actors in Shakespeare and now, it's kind of like they've really taken the charge with that which is so good and a long time coming considering how long the plays have been around. So that's a massive change. But I think yeah, I was specifically talking maybe about TV in particular. But I think now there's kind of a lot more roles that make- Yeah, a lot more auditions coming around, not loads, but like enough and I think it probably depends on how confident your agent is putting you up for certain things as well I think. I think that makes a big difference. And also once you start doing those kind of roles I guess that ball starts rolling whereas if you're known for playing a certain character or certain role then sometimes people get pigeonholed don't they? But I thin that's one massive change for me that I've seen, and also just, I mean, representation is so much better now across the board. In theatre and TV. Especially TV I think. Yeah, so there's been lots of improvement. I never imagined that I would be doing what I'm doing now. Like in those first couple of years out of drama school I gave up hope on musical theatre. Kind of, I stopped my singing lessons and invested in improv lessons instead which I'm kind of glad I did because it led to writing which, you know, I adore, but Id given up hope. I kind of thought I wasn't going to maybe do that much theatre and thankfully I'm now in a position where I have done more musical theatre. Not loads. Like I'll be honest, you know, I did Tommy with Ramps on the Moon, and then The Little Big Things, and in town, and-

MICHÈLE            Which won an Olivier.

AMY      Yeah, which was fun.

MICHÈLE            Brilliant. 

AMY      Well but even that, like that was a real- And do you know what, winning the Olivier was wild, but the thing that really got to me was- And it still makes me quite emotional, is it felt like being accepted into a world that I truly didn't think I'd ever find my place in and I know how hard I worked when I was younger in particular, bearing in mind I kind of did give up a little bit of hope at a certain point. But you know, teenage Amy, and drama school Amy, and the first couple of years out of drama school, still doing singing lessons and wanting it so badly and loved the community so much and I just never thought I would find my place in musical theatre, let alone commercial musical theatre. I just never thought that. So to be in that position last year and to feel that support from a community that I loved and respected, it, yeah, it meant a lot. It was a real kind of moment for me and felt like all that work paid off. So-

MICHÈLE            And it was a fabulous performance. It was just joyous as a performance. Very naughty. Really naughty. The Guardian said- The Guardian has called you a born performer with sci fi dreams and a dizzying range.

AMY      Oh that's nice isn't it?

MICHÈLE            I've got other- I've got other reviews and I just want to mention a couple. So from The Who's Tommy that you've mentioned a couple of times-

AMY      I loved that job.

MICHÈLE            This is the Theatre Guide. Amy Trigg as Sally Simpson is beguiling as the callow velvety voiced superfan and The Stage said of The Glass Menagerie that your performance was outstanding as the shy, reclusive Laura. 

[00:30:02]

AMY      Oh boy.

MICHÈLE            Congratulations. I mean-

AMY      Thank you.

MICHÈLE            Fantastic. And all of them fantastic performances. I sadly didn't get to see The Little Big Things live but I have seen it on the small screen.

AMY      It's- Yeah, I miss that job a lot. I've been very lucky to have loved, basically, so many of my jobs have, you know, meant a lot and like, kind of those three that you mentioned there, like, The Glass Menagerie was my first theatre job and was a real moment of being like ah, I can be onstage. And I remember on the first night people were surprised that it was kind of my first theatre job. I just remember thinking, I was like, I'm just so excited to be here. Like I'm buzzing with adrenaline but I'm just so excited, I'm ready. And then The Who's Tommy was the first time that I'd worked, like, for a longer period of time with a company like Ramps on the Moon or Graeae because obviously Graeae were involved along with lots of other theatres, and that was really kind of a bit lifechanging for me. Just felt completely able to be like well this doesn't work for me, can we do this, you know? Anything like that. And it was also a really lovely company. I mean you were around, you were there. 

MICHÈLE            I was around.

AMY      So it was a really nice group wasn't it? And we were so lucky. 

MICHÈLE            It was, and it was a phenomenal show. 

AMY      It was great fun. I would have loved to have done that again. But-

MICHÈLE            Yeah, that was a real shame that that never happened. Talk to me about writing. Talk to me about what it is that you love about writing. Let's start with that. Who are the people whose writing- Not seek to emulate, I don't mean that, but that there are things, there are just things that you're reaching for. Ways of working or ways of working with words that you're reaching for in the work that you do.

AMY      Yeah, the person who always comes to mind is Nora Ephron. When Harry Met Sally is one of my favourite films and I think it's just one of the best scripts ever written. Like the dialogue in there. I kind of always aspire to that and her books and her essays. I just think they're so brilliant. They're so brightly written is how I always kind of maybe describe them. Funny. Thought provoking. And yeah, I admire Nora Ephron's work a lot. And I think also people who inspired me to get into improv and writing were kind of Amy Poehler and Tina Fey. Like their memoirs did a lot for me, like, reading them and kind of hearing a little bit of my own voice in them. I- Yeah, I think those works. And then play wise, I remember- I mean, I just love Duncan Macmillan I think is an amazing writer. He wrote a play called Every Brilliant Thing and I've never seen it live. I watched it- There's a recording on I can't remember, on one of the streamers, maybe it's Prime I'm not sure, and it's beautiful and it's so beautifully written. I remember I'd just done my first play, Reasons You Shouldn't Love me and I watched Every Brilliant Thing and I thought man, he's done like what I was trying to do in that first play. You know, when they wrote certain moments, and I was like I know I can capture this in like a line or two lines, but it's a scene at the moment and it could be distilled. And then I saw that and he was doing that and obviously I mean, he's a very brilliant writer and very experienced so I look up to him a lot. And there's so many writers, to be honest. There's so many.

MICHÈLE            And what about the comedy? What is it that you're reaching for in your comedy?

AMY      Comedy, I mean, as far as like- I mean I would kind of go back to Amy Poehler and Tina Fey and Nora Ephron again probably comedy wise I think, that's that kind of crossover. And then oh, you know the- Did you see the special on Nanette?

MICHÈLE            Oh yeah.

AMY      Like I remember watching that special and just being like oof. Like whenever I see- I feel like I approach writing work in the same way I approach my taste in music. I love certain songs but I don't necessarily know an artist's full back catalogue, but I know what I like and sometimes I will like, see, you know, certain works and think oh, I need to actually go and listen to their full album or like see everything. I've done that a few times where I think- Bo Burnham, did you see his Inside- The special Inside on Netflix? It's amazing and it's really kind of dark. Also still funny and just brilliantly written-

MICHÈLE            A bit like Nanette, that's Hannah Gadby, of course, also-

AMY      And then- Yeah and they're very different and I think probably my style of writing leans more towards like Nanette and Hannah Gadsby. I think amazing. But Bo Burnham I find fascinating because you compare his current work to like what he was doing when he was 16 which is when he kind of got into comedy and you know, the problematic things he's said and sung and written and everything, and how it's progressed and like his movie Eighth Grade is gorgeous. Like he's really kind of managed to capture- I can't remember how old the character is, a 13-year-old girl I think, her experience at school. And I just think he's a really fascinating artist and writer because you can see his progression and where he's started to focus his work. So I kind of want to start doing that a little bit more. Stop listening to just like the best hit of an artist and actually go and study their back catalogue and see where they've gone because I feel like we all have journeys to go on. 

MICHÈLE            Yeah absolutely. Would you say that you write instinctively and then go back and do that redrafting that you love? Or are you thinking very consciously about how you're writing as you do it?

AMY      It kind of depends on the project I would say. For my first place, for instance, Reasons You Shouldn't Love Me, I just wrote it and then went back and redrafted it and it's one of those pieces, I think, because it is my first thing, like full-length thing, I could still go back and redraft it. When we performed- We did the like second kind of tour or the second outing and I was like I want to redraft so much of it. Charlotte Bennett who directed it, she let me do a few a little redrafts but she was very much like you've got to honour that it is a piece from a certain time of your life and keep it like that, which I think is important. But I think now, a lot of the things I write, especially TV, if it's commissioned and I'm working with producers and script editors and everyone from an early stage there is a lot more planning involved and I kind of have to be a little bit more diligent with myself and not just go and like write everything which is sometimes hard because one of the things I love about writing, and I think you asked this earlier actually, is I love sorting out my messy brain. I love just getting everything out and then working out how I actually feel about something. I feel like I can actually articulate what I want to articulate when I write which is really enjoyable and beneficial for me and I think probably, you know, I'd be journalling as a form of therapy. I probably treat my writing a little bit like that depending on what I'm writing about.

MICHÈLE            But your writing, it's never self-indulgent. It is that where the redrafting comes in?

AMY      Yeah I think so. I've- And there's definitely- I'm definitely conscious of what I write and I think actually it kind of does link back to being a disabled writer and you know, I'm always going to be a disabled writer, you know? But I don't want all my work to be about disability or completely overwhelmed by that theme, because that's not truthful to my experience. I think you can have a disabled character and not have them overwhelmed by themes and jokes and everything and like almost overindulgent messages because I think there's a more interesting way of doing that and if we can be braver, doing that in a more subtle way, I think it'll have more impact. So I also am quite conscious of what I back away from. I remember I was writing one play and I'm still very attached to it and I want to go back and write it but it was getting to the point when we were developing it- I was developing it with a team and it was becoming- It was going away from being about relationships and character and being more about kind of disability politics. 

MICHÈLE            Right.

AMY      It totally made sense. Like it did make sense for that play to do that job but at that time with other things I was writing I thought that's not the itch I want to scratch right now. So I think I just want to pause there and come back to it because I think I might have become a bit indulgent and self-indulgent and stuff with it. So it's something I'm always conscious of and try not to do. And there's definitely been things I've written in the past that I look back on and I'm like oh boy because it does feel a little bit- A little bit, I don't know, blunt. I don't know what the right word is. 

MICHÈLE            Don't you think that as disabled people working creatively the invitation to us is to make everything about disability? I think as a sector we are slowly, as you've pointed out- There are roles now for- A disabled person might be cast as a receptionist or as a DC in a crime-

AMY      Yeah, anyone yeah.

MICHÈLE            Is it just me, is it just because I watch a lot of crime drama, but crime drama does seem to be doing really well in terms of casting disabled actors.

[00:39:52]

AMY      It's- Yeah, but if you need a tech expert in a crime drama.

MICHÈLE            Don't be disabled.

AMY      Yeah.

MICHÈLE            But we're moving away from, really slowly, too flipping slowly, but we're moving away from that trope whereby disability not only defines a particular actor but actually is the fulcrum of the plot. It's a plot device. Therefore the invitation to us as disabled people is to write stuff or perform stuff whereby the fact that we're disabled is the plot device. It takes- I think it takes a fair amount of strength of character to get away from that, actually in the way we live our lives never mind in the way that we make work. 

AMY      Yeah, it's- It's really hard because, yeah, it's hard to turn down work as well. And I mean, I've found myself in that position a few times or working with a great team and just saying oh, I think I maybe want to do something different and not do this again. It's really hard to do. But I think its needed and unfortunately it's still- We are still at the point where people have to kind of pipe up and say I'm not sure about this. This doesn't- This feels a bit heavy handed or this feels a bit like being pigeonholed a little bit. But I think again, it's surrounding yourself with the right people and being okay to speak up. Like, to be honest, I'm very lucky with a lot of my writing projects and my writing agent. Like I've never really felt particularly pushed into something. But I have said no to a few things where I felt like I might have fallen into that trap.

MICHÈLE            I don't know if you agree with me but it's if your background, whether that's the background to the career or the- To your career or the background in the particular piece, is that disability is an ingredient, that cake that you talked about, then those moments where you've got a disabled person who is a nasty character or a joke that is about disability, they work. They can work. If it's against the right background. If they are the background. Then it's just boring and lazy isn't it?

AMY      It's- Yeah, it's 100% that, you know? Even- Yeah, yeah, I really like that way of putting it. I can't put it in a better way. But it's true. It does, it just feels lazy. I think it's having the right people involved and everything and also, as writers and all artists I think, you never want to be doing the same thing. Whether it's writing about the same topic or doing anything that's the same, you want an eclectic career and you want to flex different muscles and if you're not flexing different muscles then that's when, you know, it becomes tricky, no matter what muscle that is that you’re flexing, whether it's whether you're disabled or not, if you get trapped in one thing, your work starts to over time resemble one thing. I think it's a big trap for anyone. Especially anyone from kind of a protective characteristic. Yeah, it's something I'm really conscious of and I hope I can carry on, you know, doing a variety of things. But at the same time, you know, I do feel- Like you were saying, if you've got those- If you've got a disabled character or, I don't know, some kind of gag or something like that, as long as it's on the right backdrop you're probably safe. As long as it's, you know, tentatively sprinkled, then you're okay. It's just, yeah, it's a tough question because you say it to people and people are like, oh, but that's saying bye to work. But if we don't say no to certain things then it's just going to stay the same.

MICHÈLE            This will be challenging the status quo or we're perpetuating it aren't we? There's no neutral in play.

AMY      Exactly yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean on the subject of saying no to kind of work, I remember, I mentioned this on a panel once and I don't think it went down very well because I think they were thinking I was kind of this privileged actor or writer saying- Telling people to say no to work. And the opposite was true at the time, when I made those comments on that panel, I was not getting a single audition through. It's interesting what people see from the outside. But I just made a comment about how I'd been approached to kind of- As a writer, work on a piece that really needed a deaf writer involved, needed someone with that experience. I wasn't the right person so I just said no, probably not me, but what about these people and stepped away. And I've done the same with some acting jobs where I haven't felt comfortable and haven't thought it was right to do. And it's always a conversation that you have to have, I think, with yourself and step away. And maybe that is kind of from a bit of a privileged position but I mean I was doing that a few years ago and I was most certainly not in a privileged position. And  even now, it's hard when- Because if people see that, and see that only certain people can stand up to these things and say oh no, let's steer the ship in this direction, then not enough people are going to be doing it to make a change to the course, you know?

MICHÈLE            Exactly. I mean that, honestly, sounds to me like sharing privilege.

AMY      Yeah I mean I hope so. That's how I kind of see it. Yeah. It's sharing the food on the plate. Apparently I'm very hungry, I keep talking about food. I just ate a load of pasta as well. But I think, yeah, it's avoiding the echo chamber as well isn't it? It's just sharing it out and making sure we don't get trapped in an echo chamber of one opinion or one type of person being shown. I think that's really important.

MICHÈLE            Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more. So we're running out of time but I really want to know what's next for Amy Trigg?

AMY      That's a fantastic question. But no I have to say-

MICHÈLE            What are you going to say no to in the next week Amy?

AMY      No, I've- Well it's been an interesting few years because I was very lucky in that I had a kind of a year and a half, two years of doing the Reasons You Shouldn't Love Me tour in London run and then I went into Medea in town, I loved doing that, and then into Little Big Things. But because of that and because of me having to manage maybe my body and my time and energy, I wasn't really having any- Much time for writing or much time for kind of a life. So I love theatre, but I did think when I finished Little Big Things, I was like I think I need to give my body a little bit of a breather and focus on writing for a little bit. Which I have done, kind of, for the last year. I've kind of stuck to that and done R&Ds with theatre to itch that scratch and some bits of TV which will be coming out soon and lots of writing. So at the moment, I'm kind of enjoying the work of the last year and writing's going very well. Writing a book for a new musical which is very exciting because I love a musical, as you know. And then lots of TV projects in development. So I'm really enjoying it at the moment but I must admit, I'm really missing theatre.

MICHÈLE            Are you?

AMY      Yeah. My body is recovered people. 

MICHÈLE            Just saying. It was a very physical role wasn't it?

AMY      It was yeah. And it was- Yeah I mean it was great fun but- I mean I loved it. I would do it again in a heartbeat. Truly, if I'd been able to do that show for another five years I would have done it. But yeah, I miss it a lot. I miss it a lot. And I just miss theatre. I miss the kind of community of it. So fingers crossed it won't be too long.

MICHÈLE            But you're loving writing?

AMY      I do. I really love it and I think- I feel very fortunate that I've got two things that I really love. Like it really makes me happy, both things. And I also do love going and doing TV jobs you know? I really enjoy rocking up to set and seeing different people and experiencing- Because being on a set is very different to being in the theatre I think, you know? There's a different atmosphere and different vibes and it's- Yeah I just- Yeah I love it all. I feel very fortunate that that's the case really. But it's nice, I do like my writing at the moment.

MICHÈLE            Brilliant. Well we are out of time, sadly. Thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me. It's been just fantastic and I wish you well for all that's to come and yeah, just to reiterate, Amy's body has recovered.

AMY      It's recovered. Woo. It didn't take long actually. I just needed a good sleep.

MICHÈLE            Don't we all?

AMY      To be fair that's like, you know, yeah. 

MICHÈLE            Brilliant. Thanks so much Amy, it's been fantastic. 

AMY      Thank you. It's been so lovely chatting.

MICHÈLE            Thanks for listening to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and to let us know what you think. Thanks to Podtalk, our podcast production company. Technical production and editing by Mark Mason, executive production by Zanna Hornby.

[Audio ends: 00:49:49]

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