Ep 9: Zak Ford-Williams, screen and stage actor (Bridgerton,The Hardacres)

Michèle talks to Zak Ford-Williams, screen and stage actor in Bridgerton (Lord Remington), The Hardacres (Harry Hardacre), Wolfe (Tyler) and The Real and Imagined History of the Elephant Man (Joseph Merrick).

Zak knew he wanted to act at six years old, after seeing George’s Marvellous Medicine. Though he didn’t initially identify himself as disabled as a young child, he later realised how excluded he was. Stubbornness kept him going - knowing he wasn’t alone.  Zak says 'Many young disabled people dream of creating art but feel there’s no space for them'.

Thank you Zak for an incredibly in-depth and informative conversation.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor.

Michèle Taylor, is a disability equality trainer and consultant, and has been Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon since the Consortium was convened. For the 10 years, she has been supporting the partner theatres to embed disability equality and anti-ableism into their organisations and to realise their ambitions around elevating disabled people across the mainstream industry. In 2022 Michèle was honoured with an MBE For Services to Theatre and Disabled People.

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk

Transcript

Date Transcribed:           May 2025

INT                                    Michele Taylor

RES                                     Zak Ford-Williams

INT:       Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I'm Michele Taylor, director for change, and I work to elevate the place of disabled people in the mainstream cultural sector. In this second series of the podcast I've chatted with some brilliant disabled actors as well as non-disabled allies from arts organisations who, with the support of Ramps on the Moon, are embedding anti-ableism into the work they do. Each episode makes sense on its own, but do go back and listen to the earlier episodes if you haven't already. Join us, as we change the world. Welcome to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I couldn't be happier to welcome Zak Ford-Williams. I'm up here in my home studio in Newark. Zak, where are you? 

RES:       I'm in my home in Ramsbottom.

INT:       Ramsbottom?

RES:       Yeah.

INT:       Right that's where you were born isn't it?

RES:       It is. It is indeed. 

INT:       Zak Ford-Williams is probably known to many of you. His credits on television include Bridgerton and Better, was in the Channel 5 programme The Hardacres and Wolfe. I loved Wolfe. Great show. Zak was in Wolfe and theatre credits include - I mean, there are many but they include The Real and Imagined History of the Elephant Man, based on Tom Wright's book and directed by Stephen Bailey. That's all I'm going to say about Zak because I want to hear what Zak has to say about himself. So Zak, tell us about Ramsbottom. You were born there, you're living there now. What pulls you to Ramsbottom?

RES:       Well it's just sort of about, I don't know, I really want to keep close to kind of where I grew up and the sort of background and environment that I'm from. I think, you know, when you go- Or when you move to a more metropolitan area which one day I may have to, you can sort of lose sight of it and lose sight of, you know, actual people and proper sort of scenarios. And also I think I, you know, I love travelling to places for work. It's great fun. But sometimes I miss the sort of closeness and friendliness, and I miss being able to go exploring and go out into some woodland, you know? Because it's in the middle of nowhere. But I like that about it.

INT:       Zak, you've been generous enough to contribute to a number of Ramps on the Moon events, and I know that you and I have delivered shall I saw opinions events together before, and are about to do so again very soon. And I want to jump straight in and say to you that I know that you have a lot of just really exciting and interesting opinions about disabled people in the arts, onscreen, onstage, in the arts more generally. Where does all of that come from?

RES:       Well honestly it's just- Most of it's just me being a big gob. But also you know, I like to read up and listen to people and take things, you know, take bits of what I've got from someone and then bits of what I've got from someone else and then kind of make my own sort of conclusions and there's sort of so much stuff out there, and I- A lot of that also came through from some of the sort of- What can be the boring stuff with drama school training but learning about things like, you know, postmodernism and signs and signifiers and really thinking about how what we perceive in the media becomes our reality, and what a significant role particularly in this day and age when, you know, we spend so much time- And I don't necessarily think it's a negative thing, but we spend so much time attached to screens, you know? To thing people have made, that that will always influence people and that always has messaging in it, whether that messaging is intention or not, that is absorbed. And a lot of it sort of came through that and hearing a lot of people who are a lot more articulate and clever than I am talk about it and liking bits of what they were saying. Just sort of an amalgamation of all of that stuff.

INT:       I'd like to question you saying people who are more articulate than you are, and I'd like to do that by throwing a quotation back at you. So I've read this. I'm looking at my screen, so I'm attached to a screen. I'm attached to two screens right now. But you said, I believe, you said, by prioritising disability inclusion organisations tap into unique skills, perspectives and talents of disabled people, building a more diverse, innovative and inclusive environment within our industry. The energy that the presence of disability creates within a production is a resource of creative potential. I feel amidst the advances being made embedding deaf, neurodivergent and disability equality within our industry, a disabled person on a stage or screen is still a political act. The presence of marginalised groups can bring about social and political change. The normalised presence of marginalised groups cements it. The rest is celebration. Blimey Zak, that's brilliant.

RES:       That was a brilliant article too. I remember writing that. That's the final paragraph of an article that I wrote just before Elephant Man I believe. That sort of came out of the idea that- And it's only solidified in the sort of time since, that I would be agree with everything I said there and even more so, I think, in today's climate of sort of saturation and there being so much and it's so difficult to find an audience that I think it's all about that untapped creative resource. That energy. And I think there are, in every sort of marginalised community and particularly disability, underutilised opportunity for stories and to hear what those people say and I think by having a room filled with all kinds of people and telling all sorts of stories we end up with more interesting art, but also we avoid the problem of making the same sort of stuff which helps avoid that saturation issue, I think, that's becoming quite evident nowadays, where a lot of the same stuff is being made and even though it's incredibly high quality, some of it's struggling to find an audience because audiences have sometimes seen this so many times, nothing about it really pulls them in. And I believe that by using that energy and that resource that disabled people have, and people from all sorts of marginalised groups, to tell stories that we haven't seen before, I think audiences find that interesting.

INT:       I couldn't agree more. Stories we haven't seen before and also stories we think we know. 

RES:       Yes.

INT:       But see them in a different way.

RES:       Yes completely. And that's also- People love that. People love it when you know, you see something and you go oh, it's one of these but then there's a really clever twist you wish you'd thought of you take, and then that wonderful idea behind it is really thoroughly explored. People love that and have always loved that. And I think that's really important and I think you'll only get those kinds of new thinking when you open up the spaces, particularly in terms of writing and just creative teams and when you open that up to more kinds of people from more backgrounds and disabled people, and everything, that is kind of the only thing that I think of that will enable that.

INT:       But you think that's true in their personal lives as well.

RES:       Yeah. Yes. 

INT:       If our groups of friends and associates are kind of monolithic then we don't ever get challenged and we don't ever stretch ourselves and find ourselves thinking new thoughts.

RES:       Totally, totally. And it's very easy to do that in someone's life. You create, you know, your own echo chamber without realising and particularly, given you know, in today's sort of algorithmic world with social media where for sort of profit motive people are put down these echo chamber routes, the algorithm will only ever show you what it knows you've previously already like and so you accidentally hem yourself in without even knowing that you're hemmed in. And I think why- What makes the arts important in that role is that then people can, you know, watch a thing on the telly that makes them think about something in a different way, or think about something in a different light and is- The sort of moral is, I think, it's important that it's a promoter of empathy and that's very important, but also I think it's just interesting, and it just- I think the more people in our society that think critically and are interested by the world and everyone in it and, you know, have a fascination with everything that goes on around them, I think it creates a more healthy society. And particularly when, you know, we look at these- Holding up my phone, these light squares all the time, that show us just what we want to see, seeing something new, interesting and thought provoking is so important. 

INT:       Do you experience that in the rehearsal room?

[00:09:26]

RES:       Yeah, I mean it's one of the nicest moments. I've found that, you know, also working with people is sometimes you can tell stories or have a new perspective or sometimes there's a decision in the writing or direction or whatever that doesn't quite ring true for you, and you sort of say that- I'm not sure, because this kind of happens in that scenario and people are like, well-  And one of the most pleasurable experiences I've found in a rehearsal room is having that experience as well from someone else. I love learning and hearing someone else's story or an angle of something about someone's life that I hadn't considered that then could be fed into the work. That is completely fascinating. And that's one thing that's really nice about sort of rehearsal rooms, particularly when you get people from all over the shop, you know? From everywhere and from all sorts of different backgrounds and you all have to discuss a text. Everyone has entirely different takes and everyone kind of gives a little bit and accepts a little bit from everyone else. And it's just a very pleasant environment to work in when it's like that, you know? 

INT:       Yeah, I often think about how lots of times non-disabled people and perhaps our sector generally seems to think that allowing in disabled people, and I use that term advisedly, allowing in disabled people is some kind of concession and they miss the fact that everybody benefits. It just makes for more interesting work.

RES:       Totally, totally. And I think eventually they may cotton on that-

INT:       I do think so.

RES:       Yeah, yeah. I mean maybe I'm a bit pessimistic like that, particularly with everything that's going on at the moment but I would agree with you. It will get there. It's just I, you know, there's a that phrase I like to sort of keep bringing up about it which is it's not about it being worthy. It's not about kind of- Although these arguments are fine of doing it because it's right and everything, yeah, those are important, but it's also worthwhile, you know? Not worthy but worthwhile, you know?

INT:       That's an interesting distinction. 

RES:       We're this wild thing that helps everything and actually, you know, increases it. Even, you know, the practical elements, you know? Even making the environment more accessible, you'll so much of the time find that little bits that make, you know, the environment more accessible like lowered kerbs to whatever, make it actually easier for everyone and more practical for everyone.

INT:       You're so right. I do want to ask you about a few specific roles that you've played and I want to start with The Real and Imagined History of the Elephant Man which I was lucky enough to see here in Nottingham Playhouse. The show itself was fantastic and so interesting on lots of levels, but your performance was, quite apart from anything else, physically extraordinary, That must have been really tough as a physical feat, just being onstage pretty much- Well all of the time I think, in your wheelchair.

RES:       No it was quite an extraordinary thing. I mean, I was lucky enough to know that I had gotten that role quite far in advance which gave me a lot of time to do a lot of physical prep. But I must tip my hat to sort of everyone there at the Playhouse and me going- Right, I understood what was sort of required of myself for this and I was very open and I said I've never physically done anything like this and I've no idea if my body is just going to give way, and them being like yeah, let's give it a go then. And that's, you know- And me going okay, you know, I've said my piece. Let's go for it. And I enjoyed that challenge, you know. Part of me, I think, sometimes as an actor is a bit, forgive the sort of nerdy reference, but a bit Klingon, you know? Cutting their arm off to make the fight a bit more fun. I kind of have a bit of that sometimes of I really enjoy that challenge. So that was really good. But also I felt that- I don't know, with it being so difficult and me having to do so much physical prep, with playing someone like Joseph, you know, who went through so much physically, it felt like- I don't know, me putting myself through this to tell the story of that real person felt like the least I could do. I don't know. It's an odd thing to kind of describe. It felt like it should be a bit- It should feel difficult, at least, to give me more of a sense of how absolutely arduous his life was and also, you know, just something that's popped in my head about that, it was incredibly special to me but I remember once being asked, you know, it's a big role to undertake, and I was yeah, I said yeah, and the person I was talking to said because all these other actors, you know, have taken on this role, you know? John Hurt and what have you. Oh, that must be nerve wracking. And I said well that's not really the bit that's nerve wracking because this person is a real person. They're not a sort of role to be performed physically- You know, it is a disabled story, and part of what I liked about this production was that it felt like a reclamation of a story that's told- Taken from us and told by non-disabled people, and felt like taking that back, which was really quite nice. But also I'm very lucky in some ways as a disabled person that I'm a disabled person that has a voice. And Joseph, and a lot of people still to this day who live in situations like that and like him, you know, all around the world, have no voice. And the bit that made me nervous about that role wasn't taking on the role that so many other actors had done, it was playing the role of this real person whose scenario is actually quite similar to, you know- Whose life  is a lot similar to the lives of disabled people today who have no voice. And I have to do them justice. I'm not holding myself up and saying I am their voice. I'm not saying that. I just have to respect them in this and try and show people what it's like to not just be a disabled person but a disabled person without agency or a voice which is, unfortunately, so true of a lot of peoples' situations, even today. 

INT:       That's so interesting Zak, and such a nuanced distinction between kind of setting yourself up as a representative, they have no voice so I will be their voice, but rather- Well, you used the word respect. I'm not their representative but I have to respect what their experience is.

RES:       Absolutely. Absolutely. Because that, you know- I don't know, maybe it's just me. I'm not a- I don't like to be a sort of figurehead or a mouthpiece for anyone but myself and sometimes, you know, if someone wants me to say something about something for them on a person to person level, I'll do that, but I don't pretend to speak for entire swathes of people and I think I always distrust people who say they do. Maybe that's just me.

INT:       Interesting isn't it?

RES:       Yeah. I don’t know. I- Particularly with disability, as you know, being such a massive umbrella term, I feel it would be wrong for me to say I speak for everyone. But I can show everyone as much respect as I can. 

INT:       That's really lovely.

RES:       Because they should have their own voice rather than me being their mouthpiece. If we, you know, to help society and people in these situations move out- They don't need someone like me mouthing off and saying what it's like for them and getting stuff wrong and maybe accidentally generalising or whatever, right, you know? They need to be given their own voice. 

INT:       That's also the other thing isn't it, that if we do set ourselves up to be the representative or the mouthpiece then potentially we could end up inadvertently maintaining the status quo, that it's okay for those people not to have a voice.

RES:       Yes, yes.

INT:       That's a really interesting perspective.

RES:       Yeah. And a sort of charitable view of that, which I do agree with, is sometimes that can be unintentional.

INT:       Yes.

RES:       But it's still- Intentional or not, it's still kind of what happens. It's all a balancing act and was always going to be a bit one way or the other, but I do feel- I don't know, particularly when a large swath of the people you're talking about would not be able to vocalise their disagreements with you if you did say anything wrong, you've got to be really careful. Because you can very easily, like you say, end up perpetuating things or the status quo or harmful things without you realising, and they have no recourse or no way to, not even to have a go, just to say that isn't right and that isn't true to the situation I'm in or my experience. So that was my nerves, approaching that, and to see whether I got that right and I thank you so much for sort of talking about that. I still think about that show quite a lot actually. 

INT:       Really?

RES:       I'd do it again in a heartbeat. It was extraordinary. But I did get some people in that sort of scenario talk to me afterwards and say they really liked it. And those are the- More than the reviews and more than what anyone else said, hearing that from those people is what meant the most. You know? I did at least an okay job.

INT:       More than an okay job Zak, I can tell you that for sure. So tell me, because I'm wondering what your journey to that and all those other wonderful roles has been. And it seems to me that for lots of people it's either a question of seeing someone onstage or onscreen and thinking oh yeah, I could do that, or conversely, not seeing anyone on stage or screen and going well hang on, I could do that. Which of those has it been for you? Or has it been a different experience?

[00:20:00]

RES:       I don't know. I think my realisation came that I wanted to be an actor when I was six and I saw a production of George's Marvellous Medicine and I still remember that production like it was yesterday. And I announced in the car on the way home I was going to be an actor. But I think at that age, even though, you know, I needed a lot of help and other people would say things, growing up I didn't really see myself as disabled, particularly when I was quite young because none of my friends did. They saw, like, my disability, but they didn't see the identity of being disabled and neither did my friends and it was only as a teenager that I realised that I had the identity of being disabled because that was what I was seen as and it's more than my disability was seen, I was seen as a disabled person and being a disabled person and being in those spaces it just didn't really tend to happen. And all that stuff I watched, and you know, looking at sort of old recordings of stuff like RSC stuff and realising that none of these people are like me and that I would never be allowed in this space, it was a very difficult realisation. I was already dead set, you know, on what I wanted to do. But it was a combination of stubbornness and a bit of that sunk assets thing of like well, I've already decided and I've had this realisation later on, because later on that maybe it's not for me but I'm going to keep going anyway because I don't really think there's much else that I would want to do. And I'm going to see if I can make it work anyway. And I'm really glad and I'm glad for my own stubbornness. Which- I'm very stubborn. And wanting to keep going and make a change also because I realised that I would not be the only person, you know, particularly young person, sat in their room wanting to be- Wanting to create the things that they see on stage and screen in whatever capacity and realising the space isn't for them. I realised that it's not- It wouldn't be just a me thing. Far from it. 

INT:       So that kind of, if you like, political with a small p, realisation came quite early on for you then?

RES:       Yeah when I was a teenager, when I saw attitudes towards me shift a little bit as my, you know, the people in my life lost that wonderful thing as a child, where children don't see anything and as we all did, we started to get all that information and that sort of training if you like from life, that different people are different and you should treat them in certain ways and I was starting to get that, and it was, yeah, it was quite a- It was a difficult realisation, realising that because I was lucky enough to go to a school and be around, you know, people from everywhere and my early years were very much come one come all, and I didn't really understand or perceive that there was any difference, that that realising- I think I was about 13, of like you are different and they will always see you as different and no matter how much, yeah, no matter how much in your own self you're just a person with a disability, they will perceive you as a disabled person. If that makes sense. That was like- And it also made me angry. And that anger is helpful because I think that anger went oh, this thing that I've been doing- And doing for years- And I also started to get, you know, little- Not from my parents who are wonderful and supportive, but a few people in my life started to go this is nice that you've been doing it for years, you know, wanting to become an actor, reading books about Stanislavski or whatever but like let's be realistic now. That seemingly innocuous word being quite a come on now, and what is realistic in our minds is someone like you not being in a space like this. So- Because they don't actually mean realistic, you know? I don't know, it's a bit of a euphemism. And me just going no, I don't like that and I don't like you, and I don't like how you've said that and I want to do this. And I want to try and make a bit of a change at least, even if it doesn't go anywhere, I want to keep going because I just didn't-  I don't think I like to be condescended to. I don't think I've ever liked that. 

INT:       I'm really interested to know, who are the people who have been your role models, your heroes, the people who've been in your head and in your heart as you've pursued your career?

RES:       Oh wow. There's a lot people actually, you know. People like Peter Dinklage, Mat Fraser, Danny Devito, Amy Trigg, you know? Who are brilliant. I remember actually going through drama school and Amy Trigg did these videos about being in the RSC and I remember watching all of those and being sort of really enrapt by them and everything, and those were amazing people and as I've come to sort of work in the industry, and the people I've worked alongside have been wonderful. People like, you know, Nadia, and Danika, and Annabelle in Elephant Man who were all terrific. Who all brought their own things. I mean all three of them are incredible performers. Incredible, you know? I was so impressed with Annabelle. I remember Annabelle was incredible. Never done theatre before and yet I remember bringing a friend of mine who really sort of knows this and has seen loads of things and I told them it was her first time doing theatre and he just couldn't believe it. He did not believe it, or me, because she was so incredible. And the journey me and Danika went on with that character and there's one specific scene in the middle of the play that was incredible. And the bit I really like, particularly about working with Nadia, that stuck in my mind is why casting like this and being creative can add new dimensions is in the script when Joseph speaks for the first time after years to Nadia's character, you know? Him choosing to speak and expressing himself is really powerful anyway, but Joseph having learned a bit of BSL from watching the nurse, Wilson I believe, and then basically trying to express himself for the first time in this new language that he'd sort of gotten bits from and then meeting together on those terms made it magical. I remember doing it for the first time in the rehearsal room, you know, those wonderful bits in rehearsal rooms, it can be quite rare, where it's like everyone just stops, almost breathes in and everyone's like wow, this is really quite something what is happening right now, the first time we did the scene, and it really felt like that. Because that language barrier being sort of- That connection being made added so much to it and that was one of the best examples of like why casing like this and being creative can be so sort of interesting. I also want to talk about Michael Patrick and Paula Clark who I worked with doing Richard III at the Lyric Theatre, were incredible, you know. I mean, you know, Mick is extraordinary and hilarious and brilliant and him and Oshi, the co-writer and director, bringing me into that environment and to a project that was very much sort of their thing, was an extraordinary experience and one of my favourites. And Paula, again, this whole idea of being creative, Paula playing the character of Tyrell who is like the murderer for Richard III, being, suing BSL and almost being like a court jester, but having that thing of because of those things and that barrier, no one sort of looks at them and because she had such brilliant physical presence she was so intimidating whilst she could also flip into that jokey mode. She was incredible. That's another, you know, a character that isn't originally written as that and yet casting, you know, really thinking about being creative with these choices, added so much and audiences respond to it as well, you know? The people, I remember, hearing got like feedback from audiences going wow, that's incredible, was in the original sort of script? That was brilliant. And of course, working with Jack and Reuben on Mobility, that was hilarious. Mobility, it was a lot of fun. Absolute foul mouthed chaos but it was brilliant. I mean, you know, after that sort of foul mouthed chaos and working in those three very brilliant environments has been so impactful because I didn't grow up around all that many other disabled people, particularly other disabled people who kind of wanted to go down the route I did, and so working with that and working with people having all these different sort of quirks and access needs is brilliant. I mean, it's brilliant as an actor when you're working with actors who are all incredibly different. It's like you all bring something new to the table and particularly, you know, a good example, like, working with Mick and, because we both sort of played Richard III, we are entirely different people and entirely different actors with entirely different conditions who did entirely different performances, particularly in rehearsal and we had this wonderful sort of working relationship where- That I'd never seen or experienced before as a sort of working artist where Mick would do something and I'd go oh yeah, actually, I would never have thought to make that choice because of your own habits as an actor and everything, but I might nick that. And he told me- I didn't know this, but he told me he would do the same thing sometimes. And it was so nice. It was like we were- Because we were such different people in so many ways we had completely different habits as actors, because you always have those kind of things you go back to, your little safeisms. But it made us make entirely different choices and then I think we sort of- We came to really interesting conclusions of the characters that really felt unique with little bits pilfered from each other here and there, and that was wonderful.

[00:30:49]

INT:       Brilliant, brilliant, I love that. Those moments, like you say, those moments in the rehearsal room, they’re magic aren't they? The alchemy of the rehearsal room, it's amazing. And of course because I've got you in the hotseat, there's another question I want to ask you. I'm really interested, you mentioned Elephant Man again and I'm really interested in anything you might have to say about- Do you have a view on let's say impairment specific casting. So I think everybody's very used to that idea of not casting- I'm not saying everybody's doing it but everybody's used to the idea of not casting a non-disabled person in a disabled role, but do you have a view on whether it's important to stick to the actor having an impairment, a condition that is at least in the same kind of ballpark, if that doesn't feel like a disrespectful thing to say, do you know what I mean?

RES:       Yeah.

INT:       What are your thoughts on that?

RES:       My view is that- And it's very sort of, I suppose, kind of unhelpful answer is it really depends project to project. Like if something is incredibly specifically written in the script for someone's physical life and physical language and it is this, and as well the world itself. The world of Elephant Man was very non-naturalistic and strange, but if the world is like very naturalistic and grounded in that reality, you know, it would be, I think, best to try and find as close a match as possible that still exists. I think sometimes there can be a bit of a trap if you go in thinking, you know, I want this person who's going to- Eight foot six with one eye who's ginger and has one leg and is from this specific region and that person ends up not existing because that person may exist out there but they might not want to be an actor. And there's a lot of, you know? So I think sometimes it's helpful to look for something that is similar, particularly if there's something about the experience. I mean, casting a disabled person will always lend the experience of otherness, but if there's something specific in the script that, you know, would need that understanding and you feel as a creator would need that understanding, then getting as close as possible might be a priority for you or you might just want that sort of experience of otherness. So I suppose I'm very keen on casting disabled people but it's- I don't necessarily think you've got to be exact, you know? It may be a science fiction disability. My favourite example is- I love Davros, you know, but Davros is a wheelchair user, yeah, but he's also technically dead which is very difficult to cast because- So there's always going to be this sort of creative licence and you know, willingness to- I mean, I played- I don't have proteus syndrome when I played Joseph, but something I did, because I felt I wanted to create the same language of what that feels like to have a progressive condition, which I don't, I do a lot of masking of my cerebral palsy and my cerebral palsy movement, and you may have seen this when you were watching it, but I slowly unmask that physicality more and more. And I let it take over in a way that I'd never done before in anything and actually, I remember getting really emotional in the rehearsal room because I realised I disguised it so much, this way of moving, that some of the closest people in my life have never seen me move like this and I'm going to do it in from of the public and in front of people and that was- And it was my decision, you know, because I wanted to find that. But that was- That really got to me in a why do I hide myself away like that physically? And then I sort of took that emotional reality in. But I suppose yeah, it- Maybe it's a bit poetic, but it's the poetic licence thing I suppose isn't it? But I still wanted to find- I didn't want to try and have proteus syndrome or for us to do any of the makeup or whatever because I don't, and that was important to me. If we're going to do this with this non-naturalistic world that's very poetic, I don't want to try and, I don't know, ape someone else's condition. That would feel, to me, very wrong. Whereas if I can show my body being taken over in a way that is actually physically real for me, then it kind of has a poetic similarity to what Joseph might have been going through.

INT:       I love how you talk about that, and it's the authenticity versus pretence. It's bringing out the authenticity of the experience.

RES:       I think how I would finish sort of that off is I would go I think as much or as little closeness is needed to find the proper emotional truth and authenticity, rather than hyperfocusing on physical conditions. Characteristics can be helpful, but whatever finds- Whatever helps us to get to that proper authenticity and understanding and emotional proof is the most important. 

INT:       Brilliant. I have to say, I'm rather excited because you've mentioned some names who also feature in this series of Ramps on the Moon podcasts, so I'm very pleased about that. 

RES:       Fabulous. What an unintentional advert. Brilliant. Yeah. I mean it is optimistic, things are looking up. I think particularly in this country there is a desire to actually change, as much as there may be a frozen layer in certain areas of commissioners and everything, I think we are facing, you know, an industry in this country that broadly is starting to get its head around the idea of it, and that does make me cautiously optimistic. I will say that. 

INT:       Yeah and I think- I think I'm with you. And I think, well, today I'm cautiously optimistic. Who knows tomorrow. I'll probably be pessimistic again. And then the next day I'll probably be cynical. But anyway, I also think that there are definitely growing corners of the sector where there's a realisation that disability equality and anti-ableism do not stand in contradiction to quality. We are seeing quality work. And people are flexing their understanding of what high quality work is without compromising anything and I think that is a real win and we need to make sure that more of that happens. 

RES:       Absolutely because I think that's one of the things that we're fighting against, is the assumption that to have disabled people onboard would harm the work or make it of lesser quality and I think we are showing that, by that same token, I think we have this unfortunate burden at the minute where, say, an actor from a very wealthy background with all of these sort of connections can make mistakes, can make work that is maybe not their best, and still be accepted and still get work and everything whereas we're on almost a knife edge where if we do make a mistake that sort of anyone else could recover from, for a disabled person as it is right now, it would almost reinforce that perception.

INT:       Yeah, and that's where we're forced into being representative isn't it? If we can't fail.

RES:       Yeah, and forced to be good. You know, I'm sure you see this and hear this as well but you know, I agonise over everything I do. I want it to be the best and sometimes to a point that can make me ill sometimes. I know that- I would love for my work to just be representative of me. But I know the case in how people who view my work will see it, and sometimes you know, even if the performance is really good, if I come offstage or I do a take that I'm like oh I could have done that a bit better, sometimes- And I'm trying to get round this at the minute, I'm unkind to myself because I'm worried that I might reinforce a certain perception in the minds of people watching it. So that is- It is kind of a double edged sword in that, you know, we're showing them that we can make good work but we also don't have the space to make even just okay work. It has to be brilliant. 

INT:       Yeah, that's not fair is it?

RES:       No.

INT:       And if creativity requires anything, it requires the willingness to take risks and the willingness to genuinely risk failing and getting it wrong, never mind doing okay work but perhaps doing really shit work needs to be a possibility for us as much as it is for anybody else.

[00:40:22]

RES:       I totally agree, and I feel that and I'm still trying to wrestle with that as a professional because whenever I do- Whenever I take a risk and- Because I consider myself to be quite a risky actor, I really like going for it and trying stuff, particularly in the rehearsal room, but sometimes even in a rehearsal room if I, particularly sometimes- I mean, it isn't necessarily malicious things, sometimes you can walk or wheel into a room and you get some awkwardness from non-disabled people or you can get some `people who look, oh, okay, so we know why you got this job, you can see it in their eyes and it's not- There's not an awful lot of people like that but it is there. And so you start working in the rehearsal room or whatever with the expectation of trying to prove them wrong and often it works but a rehearsal space is supposed to be a space that's open and accepting of things going a bit wrong and believe me, what I love about rehearsal rooms is no matter the pedigree of an actor or how long they've been working, sometimes everyone does, you know, a run through or a take of something that is a bit odd and actually, there's nothing more reassuring than that, because that's just sort of us as creatives and actors, and that's how that works. But sometimes you can feel that if you do do something that's a bit sort of odd, you can worry that oh, I'm just reinforcing that view in that person's head. That's my hope for the industry as a whole, of when we become more certain in you know, disabled actors can add to work and create quality work, disabled creatives in general can add to and create quality work, and when we know that, then there'll be more, for my own sanity and heart health, space to go a bit odd. There is- An allowance that is present from people from more privileged backgrounds and non-disabled people who do quite clearly sometimes get that allowance.

INT:       Indeed. I do want to ask you about particularly The Hardacres and Bridgerton and ask you about portraying disabled people in periods of time, historic times, when attitudes towards us were- I was going to say so different from today, I'm not going to say that. I'm going to correct myself. Were perhaps more blatantly condescending, discriminatory in other ways, and how that feels to you as a person and why you feel it's important to do that.

RES:       I mean it's incredibly important and part of why- Actually, you correcting yourself there was really interesting, because part of why it's important is that in a lot of ways, people can watch these things and start off thinking oh this was so horrible and then realise it's not all that different than it is today. They can make that realisation. But sometimes, I mean, it's fun. It can be difficult as a person. There was a bit when we were rehearsing Elephant Man, you've probably seen it, the scene where I, you know, and Joseph is being examined and poked and prodded and most of- You know, a lot of my life, in my journey through medical institutions, has been being poked and prodded while having very little clothing on. It's very true to my experience of my life. And something happened at one point in the rehearsal room where I suddenly found that very difficult in a way that I didn't expect but that can be really interesting to realise that our lives are not so different when we have these kinds of realisations and to hopefully help the audience have a bit of that same oh, you know, it's not too dissimilar. But it also can be really fun. I mean with The Hardacres, something I loved doing with Harry is because I've been through, you know, so many medical procedures and, you know, been through the wringer in a lot of very helpful medical procedures, you know, I've got nothing but positivity about the NHS. I mean, they've helped me in so many ways, but that's the thing. They’ve helped me in ways that are surgical and with physiotherapy and all these ways that someone like Harry, who I played in The Hardacres, would not have. Even though he has, on paper, my disability, which means he would be fundamentally different in everything because he has none of the stuff that I've gone through, free of charge, thank you NHS, to help me. And that became fascinating as an actor. I love changing my movement, I love using my movement in ways that I normally wouldn't. I love, sort of transforming in that way, not to get a bit artsy- Arty farty about it, but it's brilliant and it was such a wonderful opportunity to do that, to look back at videos of myself when I was a young teenager before I had my surgeries and see myself walk and try and find a language of movement that was kind of similar to that, to find a version- Because he would not have had the surgeries. So I cannot walk like I walk, and also you know, it was an interesting journey with his mobility aids, because he has two crutches. Now I don't use crutches, but if I hadn't have had my surgeries or my physiotherapy I know for a fact that I would need crutches, and it felt like finding a version of my movement in an alternate reality without the NHS which was a fascinating time and really fun. One of the things I liked about that programme was there were moments where other characters realise it- I actually- One thing that might surprise you, I sometimes- And I understand why they didn't quite go for it, I think, on reflection, you know, it was a lovely programme that's for everyone and for everyone to watch it, but you, particularly in the upper classes, people would have had really nasty visceral responses to Harry and I kind of wanted a bit of that to be shown because sometimes when I watch things I'm like ah, people would actually be nastier than what we see there because I feel like also that's important and it goes about that respect thing. It was the same with Joseph and Harry. Joseph existed and people like Harry existed and the reason I go into so much detail about that and trying to be as historically accurate and authentic as possible and push for the reactions to them to be as authentic as possible and my movement and- I put so much effort in because I want to respect the lives of these people that actually exited. I don't want to misrepresent them, you know, hundreds of years after they're dead. I want to do the best I can at representing them authentically, you know? I feel like that's important. 

INT:       Yeah absolutely. Brilliant, brilliant. Sadly, we've come to our last question. What's next for you Zak?

RES:       Unfortunately nothing I can talk about but there are some interesting- But I- I'm so sorry, I just can't- I'm not allowed. I'd get told off again. I've got a bit of a big mouth and I tend to say a lot of things, so I've got to be very careful with myself sometimes.

INT:       Okay, well that was a non-answer then. So I'm going to sneak in an extra question then. What are you most proud of Zak, so far?

RES:       That's a-

INT:       It's an unfair question but I still want you to answer it.

RES:       It's a good question. I'm broadly proud of all my work. Honestly, looking back, I think because he was a real person, and the response I got, and there was also a historian who focused on his life who really liked what I did, I think it is still The Real and Imagined History of the Elephant Man, and playing Joseph, because it felt like, at least to me, respecting the story of a man who, even in other adaptations, had, you know- Even his name was said wrong, his name was- I'll always go on about this, his name was Joseph, not John. And we used Frederick Treves' book who was a man, a surgeon, a Victorian surgeon who wrote a book about him after he died, years after he died. He didn't really know him very well, where he cast him and his institution as the saviours in Joseph's life, which we now know wasn't really true and a lot of, you know, Treves' book was just not true at all. And so it felt like reclaiming that from Frederick Treves and non-disabled people and at least in a small way, I don't know if we fully got there, but showing respect to this man who was absolutely mistreated by life for the first time, I would say, actually. I'll be a bit- For the first time, because it was put on before, when I think the previous production did that as well but that play, for the first time, to the public gives Joseph Merrick proper respect and I think I'm proudest of that. 

INT:       Fantastic and I love that we've reached the end of our conversation and you're talking again about respect because that's so much what I get from chatting with you, is your respect is a real driver of what you do. Respect for the people you're representing in your role, I mean, respect for people that you're playing, respect for the people you're playing to. It's, yeah, your career seems to have been marked so far by respect and I can't wait to see what comes next that you can't talk about. 

RES:       I can't no, I'm sorry. But it's been such a pleasure, it really has been such a pleasure, thank you. 

INT:       Well thank you for spending the time with me this afternoon. It's been great. I've loved it. And yeah, see you very soon. Thank you very much Zak Ford-William.

RES:       Yes. Bye. 

INT:       Thanks for listening to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and to let us know what you think. Thanks to Podtalk, our podcast production company. Technical production and editing by Mark Mason, executive production by Zanna Hornby.

[Audio ends: 00:40:41]