Ep 15: Christopher Samuel, Artist, on taking risks, telling stories and collaboration

Michèle Taylor talks to Christopher Samuel, a multi-disciplinary artist whose practice is rooted in identity and disability politics. 

Often echoing the many facets of his own lived experience as a Black disabled man, his work tells stories, highlighting the often unseen experiences of his day to day life and those of others in similar circumstances. 

His practice includes small detailed ink drawings, film, print, audio, research, and large installations.

Samuel works alongside galleries, museums, archives and other institutions to address missing representation in our cultural spaces.

In this episode Christopher talks about plugging holes, taking risks and the importance of a community working together.

"So in cultural spaces, in popular culture. And the disabled experience. I think for me I look around and I’m thinking, there’s missing stories that need to be told. And I have a plethora of stories that I can draw on." 

Thank you to Christopher for an extremley thought provoking and honest chat.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor.

Michèle Taylor, is a disability equality trainer and consultant, and has been Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon since the Consortium was convened. For the 10 years, she has been supporting the partner theatres to embed disability equality and anti-ableism into their organisations and to realise their ambitions around elevating disabled people across the mainstream industry. In 2022 Michèle was honoured with an MBE For Services to Theatre and Disabled People.

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk 

Transcript

MICHÈLE:           Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I’m Michèle Taylor director for change at Ramps on the Moon and this is where I get curious about ableism in the arts. I chat with brilliant people who are challenging inequity to find out about their experiences, their ideas and their work in the cultural sector and beyond. This is season three and whether you are new here or returning, every episode stands alone. So jump in anywhere. And if you want to go deeper subscribe to our quarterly newsletter, The Shift at rampsonthemoon.co.uk for exclusive insights, resources and updates on the movement we are building. Together we can change the world. 

Welcome to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. I am really happy to be talking to artist Christopher Samuel. And I’m excited to explore the overlaps, the synergies, the storytelling, the common themes as well as the differences and the challenges between the word that Chris does and the work that we do. Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast. 

CHRISTOPHER   Thank you. Excited to be here. 

MICHÈLE:           Well I’m really excited to meet you, because we’re actually meeting for the first time. 

CHRISTOPHER   I know. 

MICHÈLE:           Which is a Ramps on the Moon podcast first. And I am excited to meet you on air for the first time. Chris before we do anything else I’ve had a look at your website, I’ve had a look at some of your work. It’s extraordinary and I really, really encourage people to go and have a look. We’ll do all the details later as to where people can find you. But tell us a bit about who you are now and what your work does, is, how it moves you. How it emerges. Tell us about your work and you. 

CHRISTOPHER   Where do I start? I think the journey to where I am now has been an interesting one but I think where I am currently within my practice, I think I’m at a point where I know exactly what I want to make. And that’s work about representation, inclusion, inequity but also kind of bridging the gap in spaces and gaps that I see, yeah be a bit of an agitator. Let’s say I like to, you know, agitate wherever I go. So I typically make work about identity and visibility politics. It’s centred around my lived experience first and foremost. And then I look outwards. It’s researched focused of person-centred kind of approach. Facts-based but also within that I do like to tell a good story and paint a good picture. I think that’s how you get people involved, on board and enable people to kind of engage with difficult, complex kind of subjects. And if I’m completely honest I think I quite like the idea of creating something quite pretty and people getting closer they’re, oh my gosh, what, what am I actually looking at here? It’s actually something quite difficult to kind of deal with. But also I’m highly aware that people are not- Don’t have I should say the same lived experience or experiences as me. So it’s giving people a way in. And that’s through pretty, sparkly things. Or through humour. 

MICHÈLE:           Oh there’s so much there already that I want to explore with you. At Ramps on the Moon we’re primarily currently performing arts based. So it’s very obvious I think with the performing arts that there’s a storytelling impetus there. We’re about representation and we’re about elevating the place of disabled people within the mainstream performing arts. And I think there are so many overlaps with what you’ve talked about. I want to pick up on one phrase that you used. You talked about the gaps. Tell me a bit more about the gaps and what you think some of the gaps are if you can define them, and what you want to do in them and with them. 

CHRISTOPHER   Okay. So I think the obvious one is a lack of representation. So in cultural spaces, in popular culture. And the disabled experience. I think for me I look around and I’m thinking, there’s missing stories that need to be told. And I have a plethora of stories that I can draw on. But the most recent, in my most recent work I have kind of made the last few years, I’ve made work for the Wellcome Collection where, and this was kind of the journey into bridging the gaps or plugging those gaps where for those who don’t know, the Wellcome Collection is one of the largest medical and social archives in Europe. And I was awarded a bursary to look at their archive from- I was awarded a bursary by Unlimited, a disability-led kind of organisation. Amazing and fantastic stuff. 

My research question was, am I reflected in the medical and social archive? And by that I meant the working-class, black, British, disabled. And I realised very quickly it was a gaping hole. The only things that were there were medicalised and from a medical gaze. And a lot of charity focused things within the collection. And also equally not good was there was no first person voices. For me that’s problematic on many different levels. It raised the question of whose story is being told? Whose voices are absent? And why are those voices absent? Because so many things are raised that came to the surface but also how things were labelled, how data terms, so on and so forth. So I came away and said, okay I would like to make a piece of work. And then I applied for the main commission which I was awarded. And my proposal idea was to create my own archive based on my own lived experience of [unclear 00:07:25] British black Caribbean disabled in the eighties and nineties. And what I did was a little bit of a backstory. So my mum used to collect hospital letters and social services letters, school reports, medical kind of splints that I used to wear, callipers, all of the things that I had rejected my whole life. I was thinking, why mum, why did you collect these things? I wanted to stay as far away from these things as possible. But lo and behold, the universe and my mum is amazing, that work is dedicated to my mum by the way. But I used all of those documents, family photos, I collated family photos and I interviewed family members. I had counselling to understand what I was going through at the time just to kind of have more clarity. I spoke with my professors, doctors, who looked after me from a child. And then I constructed a narrative, so pre-diagnosis through to leaving school. Then it covered themes such as, like I said, pre-diagnosis, being diagnosed, family, leaving school. And then there was different layers of how people can interact with the work. So I created a microfilm reader, for the younger listeners, a microfilm, microfiche, it looks like a computer screen, back in the day you would find them in libraries or hospital kind of environments where they will look at- This was pre-internet by the way. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah, well pre-internet. 

CHRISTOPHER   So you would look through files and so on. But I loved that idea of something being hidden, or not being seen. So I used at the archive as a metaphor, the microfilm reader as a metaphor to scrutinise my life. And just to reflect how disabled people experience- How they experience- So it’s quite similar being scrutinised, being judged, the medical gaze. 

[00:10:02]

But also within that was, I showed how the social [unclear 00:10:08] came into play and how I had autonomy, or fought for autonomy in different ways. It was a real extensive piece of work. But since then I have worked with different museums and universities and other organisations to kind of change the way their archives exist. And that’s through, either through working with an organisation to look at how things are labelled. Or create frameworks to really kind of contextualise objects. Or again to bring new acquisitions to sit permanently within collections. Which I think is important. 

MICHÈLE:           Aren’t labels interesting, in galleries and museums and heritage collections, labels are so important because they not only, it seems to me, reflect the context of the artefact or the document or whatever it might be, but they also affect the gaze. They tell you how to look at this thing don’t they. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           As you were talking Chris I was reminded so powerfully of an experience I had when I was in my early twenties when I was asked if I would mind being the subject of some medical photography. And somewhat foolishly, I don’t know why but I agreed. And it was a real- I look back on it now and it was such a distortion of a super model shoot. You know literally can you look over your shoulder? Can you turn round by 10 degrees because we want- And it was all in this kind of fairly swish photographic studio. 

CHRISTOPHER   Wow. 

MICHÈLE:           And it was you talking about the gaze. I came away feeling so objectified and so medicalised and so dehumanised actually. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           And it’s powerful stuff. And I’m struck by- And these are my words, these are not your words, but I’m struck by what I feel as I listen to you is the courage of diving into that archive, your personal archive that you’d rejected, diving back into that and talking to your professors, talking to family members. The courage to do that and do the internal work before the expression. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. I think for me I think I needed to fully understand what I’m talking about in order to make a really honest kind of statement and creation. I think it’s paramount hearing you speak about your experience, I know that my doctors and certain family members, they did the best they could. I’m not saying that it was right but and all this stuff  is not best practice now. But I needed to do that in order to own the space properly and protect them whilst protecting myself. But also being honest and truthful about an experience. And to your point, I think I remember- And this happened a few, quite a few times, being asked to walk up and down corridors in my underwear to groups of medical doctors and having my photo taken. And ironically I felt seen. 

MICHÈLE:           Did you? 

CHRISTOPHER   I felt seen because I felt so different in the world and this was the only time I actually felt, apart from my mum, my mum loved me unconditionally and was quite honest about my reality and this is why I have the view I have, and able to move through certain things. But going to hospital is the place where I felt seen and the attention was on me. And somewhat become institutionalised in a funny way. But again that’s- I wouldn’t have wanted that for anyone. And even my doctor now said I changed their practice. She went from wanting to fix me to actually seeing me and actually putting things in place for me to have a better quality of life. So moving away from that medical model, she is a professor. She’s leading in her field worldwide. For her to say that just shows how important it is to see the person first and the medical stuff comes second, you know. 

MICHÈLE:           Sure. And yet it’s so- Those, I’m resonating with this so much, those early medical experiences are so formative aren’t they. I mean I, I’m 63, I can still remember the names of the consultants at Great Ormond Street that I saw when I was two, three, four. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           I still remember their names. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. I can smell certain spaces. 

MICHÈLE:           Yes. Yes. 

CHRISTOPHER   Like, it’s ingrained. 

MICHÈLE:           Absolutely. Chris I’d love to talk to you a bit more because I think there are more themes to come out. I mean those things that you said you wanted to do about exploring whose voice, whose stories, who gets to tell the stories. I’d love to talk to you a bit about your work with the National Trust and the Research Centre for Museums and Galleries in Leicester. Everywhere and Nowhere, which I think is such an extraordinary project, right. Anything you’re involved in is an extraordinary project frankly. But I want to read something actually because one of the things I love about RCMG, the Research Centre for Museums and Galleries is this idea of frameworks for working ethically. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           And they’ve got a nine dimension I think framework for working ethically around disability. But they say in one of the documents that you can find on their website, ‘These frameworks can guide our work by bringing the unseen or unacknowledged into focus and holding it in focus. They can help us to ask questions and hold sometimes competing questions or issues in productive tension. They can support clarity of decision making and shape interpretation in ways that prevent falling into stereotype traps or reverting into entrenched ways of working.’ And I think that’s so, so valuable. And I just wondered what your experience is and whether you think things have got better in terms of stereotypes and entrenched ways of thinking. 

CHRISTOPHER   I think things have changed since the nineties and somewhat in the last later years of, recent years I’d say things have shifted. But I’m sceptical. 

MICHÈLE:           Are you? 

CHRISTOPHER   I think Covid was interesting and I think people were able to experience an experience which is familiar to a lot of disabled people or people who are marginalised. I think that shifted the perception of inclusion, equity and so on. But it depends, some organisations and some institutions their current kind of not history but current, the social norms shifted a little bit. I think it depends. Some organisations are more forward thinking and leading into changing and moving things forward. But I think if we’re talking about culture as a whole, I think there’s still a lot of learning to be had. And I still get, people still don’t talk to me in the supermarket at times if I’m with someone who is supporting me. I think TV and social media are still problematic, still, this still entrenched kind of culture around how disabled people are viewed and their value and worth and so on. But things are changing. Things are changing. I think that’s why I’m so busy [unclear 00:19:39] overall it’s to make change and not just be [unclear 00:19:43] People are willing to change and they’re not scared. I think for a while people didn’t know how to engage with disability discord or kind of culture within this [unclear 00:19:56] There’s a lot of information out there, a lot of organisations that have, like RCMG that have built frameworks for organisations to lean on and feel confident in, in without being vilified or making a mistake. But I don’t know if that answers your question. 

[00:20:22]

MICHÈLE:           Yeah I think, I think it does. I think it’s a question that doesn’t have an answer. It’s an exploration isn’t it. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           I mean I suppose I, I- I wonder too whether different aspects of culture are changing at different rates. I think my impression is perhaps that heritage is examining itself on all sorts of kind of planes. And disability is probably the latest one. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           I don’t know if you think that’s fair. 

CHRISTOPHER   I think that’s fair. I think they are quite hesitant about disability historically. And the power and control but also, exactly, preserving history in a way that’s still kind of protecting history, which in doing so is problematic because I- And what RCMG does brilliantly is it’s not about wiping out history or labels, it’s about having the right context for it and being aware of biases and so on and so forth, in order. And it can be done, done in a way that’s beneficial for all parties. But I think you’re right, I think that is the last card so to speak. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. Can you give us an example of where it’s done well? 

CHRISTOPHER   I would say Wellcome Collection. 

MICHÈLE:           Okay. 

CHRISTOPHER   Obviously the work that RCMG are doing, they’re leading in so many ways and they’re working with many different institutions to help them uplist and reframe how they engage with the public and the public engage with them. Equally Wellcome Collection has I feel been a trail blazer in many regards because they hold a problematic archive for many different reasons. But they have not shied away from investigating that rigorously and bringing in the right people in order to kind of reframe that and respond. But that’s also, that’s just one aspect. They are doing the work internally within their workforce, bringing in the right people to do, to shift the culture within the workplace in order to do the work. I think it’s, I don’t know what their governance model is or how they- But you can see how it’s trickling down. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. 

CHRISTOPHER   And you see the impact of that within the everyday wider society. And who comes to the collection to see what they have on and so forth, they’re leading. But also you can see some of the people who are not as engaged. And it’s kind of sad because the current climate is difficult. And they are at risk of being, becoming obsolete because they’re not brave enough or willing to kind of adapt. 

MICHÈLE:           It’s kind of interesting isn’t it, I also think about places like the Natural History Museum for example, or indeed the British Museum where the displays themselves, never mind the artefacts, but how things are displayed, become a historical object in themselves. And how you can get a bit meta and actually interpret, yeah this display case it’s almost impossible to see if you don’t happen to be a man of 5’ 8” or whatever it is. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           So interpret that. If you think you haven’t got stories of disabled people, I mean a) you probably have, but b) if you think you haven’t, absence is a story, so interpret that. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           And talk about it, upfront it. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s the [unclear 00:25:02] for us it’s about it’s a no-brainer. But I think they really don’t have the vocabulary. There’s a lot of interchangeable, well different parts which are stopping them from engaging with that. I think it’s all about risk. 

MICHÈLE:           Do you? Say a bit more about that. 

CHRISTOPHER   I think taking risk to address the elephant in the room is problematic for certain organisations and institutions because they’re going to be on the firing line straight away. So not rocking the boat on bringing in an artist like myself is quite [unclear 00:25:50] the good stuff. It’s, it might not know how to handle or hold that space. I think that’s another thing, yes. I think it’s all about risk, that’s- 

MICHÈLE:           Interesting. That’s so interesting. And I think there’s also- I love that in the thing that I read from the framework document, the thing about productive tension I think is so, so fertile as an idea, like creative void, productive tension, I think all of those phrases are really productive aren’t they? 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           And I think as well, I’m not sure how these thoughts are connected but you’re sending my brain off in all sorts of directions Chris. You said about Wellcome Collection they brought in the right people. And that’s so- I’ve just realised what the connection is, that’s so important isn’t it bringing in the right people. Sometimes I feel that we lose the balance between on the one hand the organisation, whoever it might happen to be, taking responsibility. It might be a risk to hold the space. You might not know how to hold the space but learn how to hold the space. There’s a balance between that on the one hand and on the other hand collaboration is really, really important. But that doesn’t mean you contract out your responsibility. 

CHRISTOPHER   No it doesn’t. And that’s really, I’m glad you brought that up, but I think best practice I feel is, is a real collaboration. And that means everyone pulling their weight and taking responsibility and leaning on their expertise to give a helping, in order to make change or to have impact. And if we’re talking in the context of an institution or organisation, I’ll give an example of myself, the most recent work I made for Birmingham Museum. I went in looking for the- To look in the archives and realised actually I wanted to do something else. In order for me to do the work I needed a few different people on board. And I needed their collaboration and their support. What that meant was they had to take a risk. The end result was an amazing body of work, new connections and new acquisitions that were value brought to that institution, that benefits their community and the people that it serves. That’s a win but that was all based on collaborating in a way that everyone has value. And I am not just in brought in and left to do the work on my own. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. Yeah. 

CHRISTOPHER   Or it’s all on my shoulders. I think that’s the, that’s- The RCMG are amazing at that with Professor <Name> and Professor <Name> and their whole team. They are not separate from the project. They are embedded and work alongside whoever they’re working with. It’s all equal. And it’s data, it’s fact driven, person-centred approach and they’re bringing people with different lived experiences and different- That’s how you make change. That’s how you have change. 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. And, and I think we’ve got so much to learn from you, when I say that I mean I think Ramps on the Moon, I think we have a lot we can learn from you and what you say to hone and finesse how we go about making change, which is brilliant. 

[00:30:10]

CHRISTOPHER   Thank you. But I think we’re doing it anyway, we’re doing it anyway. It’s about connection, it’s about community, it’s about the owning up and taking, stepping in and leading in the work. You know like people say, oh how do you do what you do and I say, “Well it’s not just me. It’s not just me. It’s a community, it’s a group of people. And different projects I need different people.” And each person that I work with they are as much in the work as I am even though maybe I’m drawing or I’m- They influence the work itself. Their fingerprint, their voice, it’s all part of it. And we are humans you know, I think so long as we have Remember that, that we remember that something that may not affect you or affect someone you find dear, that you love, you know, the people that you value. Or it may affect you down the line, you know. I know personally I try to be as generous with people as possible because I know not everyone has the same lived experience. So I afford them the grace of not being aware of something that I’m aware of, you know, so- 

MICHÈLE:           Yeah. Yeah. 

CHRISTOPHER   And vice versa. You know as people, I think sometimes it takes something difficult to affect us to kind of realise actually this, I wasn’t aware of this before. That’s the sad reality but that doesn’t mean that they are bad people. 

MICHÈLE:           Absolutely. 

CHRISTOPHER   It just means-

MICHÈLE:           Absolutely, it’s not polarising is it. 

CHRISTOPHER   No. 

MICHÈLE:           It’s not that much of a dichotomy. 

CHRISTOPHER   No. 

MICHÈLE:           Chris I’m aware of the time. I could sit and listen to you for hours and hours genuinely. What’s exciting you in your work at the moment? 

CHRISTOPHER   You ask really big questions. 

MICHÈLE:           It is a big question. 

CHRISTOPHER   I think what’s exciting me right now, so currently I am a Clore Fellow. So I’m exploring what leadership means for me. And I have realised actually I love being an artist, I love doing  the other stuff, the consultation work I do. And what excites me is continuing to tell the stories that need to be told but also opening the doors and bringing through the next generation of people who I feel have so much to offer as well. And that really excites me, those are making art, I’ve got a few things that I’m working on, which I can’t say yet. [unclear 00:33:43] I can  tell you something that I’m doing at the moment, it is developing a piece of work for a project called Cripping Breath. It’s a project about being ventilated and what that means and so on. And being ventilated or using a ventilator. So that’s exciting, I’ve not explored that area of my life yet, developing that is exciting. 

MICHÈLE:           I love how you hold in balance the need to tell stories and open the doors for other people to tell stories along with, well art for art’s sake, making things that are beautiful, making things that are just lovely things to look at. I love that balance. And again I think that reflects what we’re about within performing arts which is about good theatre for the sake of good theatre. But also telling stories that provoke and fill all those gaps. 

CHRISTOPHER   Yeah. I think that’s needed because we’re talking about all difficult stuff and we’re not enjoying, just for the sake of [unclear 00:35:04] that’s not a way to live. And that’s not the human experience. So, yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           There’s got to be a bit of joy in there. 

CHRISTOPHER   Exactly. There has to be. Has to be. 

MICHÈLE:           Brilliant. Chris where can people find your work, find out more about you? Where can they find out? 

CHRISTOPHER   So I have a website which is christophersamuel.co.uk. Recent projects is always going to be on there. You can follow me on Instagram. It’s christophersamuel_ And yeah you can just connect if you want to reach out. I am receptive so yeah. 

MICHÈLE:           Fantastic. Thank you so much for-

CHRISTOPHER   No thank you. 

MICHÈLE:           Sharing your experience and your stories and what excites you with us. I really, really appreciate it. 

CHRISTOPHER   And it’s been a pleasure. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you. 

MICHÈLE:           Thanks for listening to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe and to let us know what you think. Thanks to Podtalk our podcast production company. Technical production and editing by Mark Mason, executive production by Zanna Hornby.