159. MyMaine Birth: Pitocin Overuse, Uterine Rupture, and the Critical Need for Informed Consent with Katie Spinks

In today's episode we hold space for Katie Spinks as she shares the traumatic birth of her daughter Jolene, including a Pitocin induction that ends in uterine rupture, delayed care, and a devastating HIE diagnosis. 

From there, we zoom out to the bigger questions: what informed consent should actually sound like in hospital birth, why birth plans can be used against mothers, and how hospital policy gets treated like law. We also explore how trauma can push families toward home birth or free birth, and where a search for autonomy can slide into rigid ideology. 

Katie is blunt about what she wishes she’d known before agreeing to the Pitocin induction, and why asking “what are the risks, benefits, and alternatives?” is not being difficult, it’s basic safety.

We close with Jolene’s ongoing journey, including intensive therapy and experimental stem cell treatments in Mexico, and what progress can look like when you’re fighting for every gain.  

If this conversation changes how you prepare, how you consent, or how you advocate, please subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more families can find it.

You can connect with Katie Spinks on Facebook HERE

You can connect with Katie Spinks on Instagram HERE 

Additional Resources:

MyMaineBirth.com

Closing song by Kate Sutherland.  You can find Kate's community songs and deep nature connection work online at KateSutherland.ca

The Guardian Article - Title: Infludencer's made millions pushing 'wild' births - now the free birth society is linked to baby deaths around the world

The Guardian Article - Title: She was like a deer in the headlights': How unskilled radical birthkeepers took hold in Canada

The Guardian Article - Title: Five Key Findings from our investigation into the Free Birth Society 

The Guardian Article - Title: Friday Briefing: How the free birth society's philosophy contributed to a preventable death 

Interview - Exposed: the business linked to baby deaths around the world

The Guardian Podcast - the BirthKeepers

Transcript

Welcome And Content Warning

Angela 0:00

I'm Angela, and I'm a certified birth photographer, experienced doula, childbirth educator, and your host here on the My Main Birth Podcast. This is a space where we share the real life stories of families and their unique birth experiences in the beautiful state of Maine. From our state's biggest hospitals to birth center births and home births, every birth story deserves to be heard and celebrated. Whether you're a soon-to-be mom, a seasoned mother, or simply interested in the world of birth, these episodes are for you. Hey everyone, welcome to episode 159 of My Main Birth. This week I've been exploring the difference between the idea of rebirth and the ideology that can easily develop around it, especially after a previous traumatic experience. Before we begin, I want to offer a content warning. Today's episode contains a detailed discussion of a very traumatic birth. So if you're pregnant or not in a place to hear this kind of story right now, please skip this episode. Today's conversation is a powerful and very important one. My guest is Katie Spinks, a childbirth educator and doula who's lived through a very traumatic birth experience. During her daughter Jolene's birth, excessive pitocin led to a uterine rupture. Katie was in extreme pain while her concerns were dismissed by the medical team. What unfolded that day changed her life forever. Julian suffered a severe brain injury called HIE, which stands for hypoxic, ischemic encephalopathy, which also led to cerebral. Katie has been fiercely advocating for her and has started pursuing expensive experimental treatments, including stem cell therapies in Mexico, along with her ongoing intensive therapies. While Katie's story is particularly severe, birth trauma happens every day on so many different levels and in so many different ways. In this conversation, Katie bravely shares the story of Jolene's traumatic birth, the uterine rupture, and the lasting impact it has on her family. We talk about the bigger questions many women face after difficult hospital experiences and where the line sits between healthy autonomy after trauma and ideology that can sometimes go too far. Check out the show notes for all of the links to connect with Katie, especially if you feel called to donate to her journey of exploring some very interesting experimental treatments for Jolene. You can find Katie on Instagram at Katie underscore spinks underscore or on Facebook just as Katie Spinks. And again, I have all of her information linked in the show notes. So please go give her a follow and show her and Jolene some love. Alright.

Meet Katie And Her Family

Angela 2:59

Hi Katie, welcome to my main birth. To get started, would you share a little bit about you and your family?

Katie Spinks 3:07

So my name is Katie. I'm 37 and I live in Virginia. I have six children altogether. Two of them are deceased, and my youngest is six. Yeah. No, yeah, Jolene is six. I'm like, hold up. She was born in 2020. Um she was my fourth pregnancy and fourth birth. And then the two babies after her passed due to preterm delivery. They just, they were too young. They couldn't be resuscitated. So um they didn't make it. Um, yeah, I don't really, there's nothing a lot to say about me. You know, like my life is pretty much revolved around my kids, especially taking care of Jolene since she requires total care. Um, but yeah.

A First Induction That Felt Supported

Angela 3:53

Now, would you share a little bit about your first pregnancy in birth?

Katie Spinks 3:57

Yeah, my first pregnancy, I was pretty young. I would think I was 19 or 20 years old. Uh, pregnancy was totally fine, uncomplicated. Birth was also fine and uncomplicated. I was 40 and a half weeks. I'm pretty sure if I remember correctly, it's been a long time. It I was 40 weeks and five days when I had her. I was induced. Um, it went literally perfectly fine. Like I couldn't have, if there was anything I could change, I wouldn't have changed anything. It went really, really well. There were absolutely zero issues. Same with like healing and postpartum and everything. I I had absolutely no issues at all.

Angela 4:36

Yeah. So would you share a little bit more just about that experience with that first induction for you and the doctor that supported you?

unknown 4:45

Yeah.

Katie Spinks 4:46

So I lived in a different state when this happened. And, you know, that was 16 years ago too. Um, the induction, like everything was was was great. I know that when I did go in there, I was already pretty dilated because I remember them saying, like, oh wow, you know, like you're this is your first baby. You're so young. This is great. Like, I do remember them being excited that I was already fairly dilated. I want to say it was like four, four, maybe five centimeters dilated already. The doctor, she was really supportive. I remember having a nurse, sometimes two nurses in there all the time. You know, like they they moved me a lot. They were very attentive. They made sure I was okay. The doctor was in and out throughout the whole process. Um, she just everybody was great. I have absolutely nothing bad to say. They were so kind, they were attentive. Um, I never once had to feel like any pain or feel like I wasn't being heard or anything. It really was such like a beautiful experience. Like I couldn't have asked for a better experience.

Angela 5:46

What do you remember around how they used Pitocin during that birth?

Katie Spinks 5:50

I don't remember much of anything, but for what I know from Pitocin now and using it many more times, I don't feel like my dose was really high because I don't remember feeling excruciating pain. Like I waited for a little while to get the epidural because I was really afraid to get the epidural because I was so young. But I just don't remember being like in excruciating pain. I remember feeling like it was a really intense period cramp. So I don't feel like they had my dose very high. And I do remember them shutting it off before the doctor came in to help me push.

Angela 6:28

How was your postpartum then with her?

Katie Spinks 6:30

It was great. Like, obviously, postpartum is is not fun, like healing and stuff. I did have a tear, so I was healing more than just like birth and all that. I think I went back to school when she was like two weeks old. So it really wasn't bad. Like, I have I have no complaints. It was it was really it was nice. And I had a doctor, like I said, like she was great. Like she had me come in, I think like once a week for the first couple weeks because I did have those stitches. And I guess I was young, like a young mom, and I was doing it alone. So she just like she was very attentive. So it was it was really nice. It was, I don't want to say like it sucks having that as my first experience, because then it kind of like set me up for next experiences, but it was nice that that was my first experience, and the first one wasn't super traumatic. But then I, you know, held that those standards with the rest of my births because I was like, well, this was great, and everybody was great, and everybody was so kind and and so attentive, and and they all cared, everybody should be like that. You know, just it definitely wasn't like that.

When Inductions Start Feeling Scary

Angela 7:34

Now, would you share a little bit about your second pregnancy and birth?

Katie Spinks 7:38

For my second one, my son. The birth I did go into preterm labor quite a few times in my third trimester. I think I was on bed rest from 34, 35 weeks on because I just like I kept going into preterm labor. But I was also like, I was working a lot, I was like really stressed out. I had another child to care for. Um, it was just it was a lot. So pregnancy was rough, but he was healthy, you know, like nothing ever happened to him throughout the whole pregnancy. It was just a lot because of everything that I had going on. And for his birth, he was also an induction. And I remember that one being like a little bit, well, a lot more traumatic than my first one because everything, like all the patos and stuff, just kept making his heart rate drop. So they were constantly like flipping me, putting the bed upside down, like fixing me here, do like it was just a lot of movement. And I remember maybe I was it was before the doctor came in to push. So maybe I was like eight, nine centimeters. Like I was just like panicking, like I was panicking a whole lot. They had to give me some medicine to calm me down because I was just freaking out because they were just in there, like they were attentive, which is good. And I'm very like thankful that they didn't just be like, oh, whatever. Like they just it was very scary constantly having people rush in and being like, okay, you have to stay in this position. Like, we have to do this, we have to do that. And so it was it was a little bit more, but he was real small. So once the doctor came in and had me push, I think I pushed for like five minutes, maybe, and he was out. He was real, real tiny. So that was that was like a little bit more traumatic, obviously, than than my first one. And healing with him was fine. Like I didn't have any stitches with him or anything. I was back to driving like two days after he was born. I felt like physically totally fine. It was just like in those moments when his heart rate was decreasing and everybody was panicking and it made me panic.

Angela 9:33

Yeah. Yeah. And for that birth, did they start you on the Petocin just to start the induction?

Katie Spinks 9:39

Yeah. So, you know, you arrive and you get all set up, get your room set up, they do the labs, they do everything they need to do, and then it just went right to Petocin. I do think with him, I was also fairly dilated as well. For my both of my inductions for my first two, I was in there like from start to finish for less than 12 hours. Yeah, I do remember him. Yeah, yeah, for less than 12 hours.

Angela 10:03

Now, how about your third birth?

Katie Spinks 10:06

The third was also an induction with her. Let's see, for Amelia, I was 39 weeks even with her. I can't remember if I was as dilated with her as I was with the other two. The pregnancy was totally fine. I worked all through my pregnancy. I worked up until like two days before I was induced. Um, never had any issues with her pregnancy. For the induction, I think the only reason why like it was, I guess, like not traumatic, but it was hard is because I had an epidural and it just did not work. And they tried to redo it two more times and it just did not work. And pitocin contractions are just God, I don't know if you felt them without an epidural, but they are they are so painful. So once I got further along, like I was able to control the pain and like handle everything until like I was transitioning and then it just got really, really rough. Like I was just puking violently and sweating, and it was just it was so, so, so painful. And because I was in so much pain, it was really exhausting. So when I was pushing her, she was a really big baby. I was struggling. So I do know the doctor did have to use the vacuum to pull her out. But like I had my husband and his family, like everybody was super encouraging, and like everybody, even the nurses, they were so sweet. Like, I remember this one nurse was like by me and just like let me cling onto her as I was like freaking out because I do know that they were saying, like, okay, it looks like the baby's starting to struggle a little bit right before they hooked up the vacuum. So everybody was like, You, you know, you have to get her out now, or things could go south. So I did that with one like push and with the vacuum, they were able to guide her out. But I did get like a fourth degree tear, which was really painful. It took me a long time to heal from her birth. I think, oh my God, it took me like eight, nine weeks to heal from her birth. It was, it was rough. But still, over in all, I would take that experience over what happened with Jolene any day, you know. Like I look back and I think, like, oh my God, like the births with my second and third, like they were traumatic. Like, you know, my son's heart rate was decreasing, and then with my daughter, the epidural didn't work and I was in excruciating pain. But still, like I would take that any day over what happened with Jolene any day.

Angela 12:25

So at this point after your third birth, was there anything, maybe even stories from other friends that you were hearing at this point that were maybe making you think that the level of pain that you were experiencing with the contractions during the birth when you had the pitocin, that was maybe more than like it should have been.

Katie Spinks 12:43

At this point, no, I still was completely clueless. Like, I wasn't on social media at this point. Like, I just like had a Facebook for like just friends and all that. We didn't really talk about stuff like that or anything. So I still wasn't able to connect the dots. I just thought this is just how it's supposed to go, you know. Like I trusted what all the doctors said and in everything that they did and said, so I never questioned anything. I was like, it I guess this is just just how it is, and it is what it is. It wasn't until Jolene was like a year old, maybe maybe a year and a half, closer to two years, that I like really joined on social media and I started, you know, looking around and digging and reading and figured out like, oh, so this this was not normal. This was not how things were supposed to be. None of this should have happened in the first place. Things could have gone way different had I known all these things then that I know now.

Angela 13:37

Yeah, which is why we're here talking about it.

Katie Spinks 13:40

Yeah, yeah. I agree.

Jolene’s Pregnancy And A Bad Feeling

Angela 13:43

So now would you tell me about how you found out you were pregnant with Jolene and like what your thoughts were on choosing your care?

Katie Spinks 13:49

So, like I said, at this point with her, when I was still pregnant with her, I just just trusted the doctors, you know, like I didn't question anything. I did choose a doctor that was based in the hospital where I gave birth to my second and my third child. So the doctor I'd had, I think was a different hospital. And I didn't know much about the hospital, and I was like, I just want to stay at the hospital that I've been at. So I chose a different doctor because of where the hospital location was. That was it. But no, like Jolene's pregnancy was literally beautiful. I'm like, if every woman could experience a pregnancy like I did with Jolene, this world would be so overpopulated. Like it was just such a beautiful pregnancy. I loved it. Like I worked out up until the day before I delivered. Like I just felt amazing. Like her pregnancy, I couldn't have asked for a better pregnancy, honestly. It was great. It was so wonderful.

Angela 14:36

Now, would you tell me about some of your like appointments towards the end of your pregnancy leading up to your induction with her?

Katie Spinks 14:43

Yeah, they were just like your typical come in, you know, vitals, weight, checking for dilation. And I think that we scheduled an induction at like 37, 37-week appointment for a 39-week induction. You know, they're just your typical go in, check, like in and out in five minutes type of thing. I don't think I ever spent more than like five minutes in there.

Angela 15:09

So, what did that conversation look like? Do you remember? Obviously, very short.

Katie Spinks 15:13

Yeah, I don't remember a lot. It was very short. It was just like, you know, he's like, okay, like if you want to be induced, like these are the dates that we have open. You're allowed to pick from here to here, you know, you're gonna be going the schedule, they're gonna call you the night before, tell you when to come in, you're gonna go in, be induced, and then you're gonna leave. Like it was very cutthroat straightforward, and and that was it. Like, there were no, do you have any questions? Do you want to do nothing? It was just here's your date, they're gonna call you. Don't eat or drink after midnight. See you then. Like that that was it.

Angela 15:48

Yeah. So did you think about any of that? Or you just kind of in the mindset where you're just like, oh, that's what they say to do. So that's that's what I'm gonna do.

Katie Spinks 15:57

Yeah, like I just thought that this was how it's supposed to be. You know, like I had had other kids, so I was like, oh great, I'll just schedule it that way. I can get a babysitter for for my other kids, and I know like when we're gonna be there. Everybody can take off work for that day. I thought I was going to go in, have her, and then leave like 24 hours later, and that was gonna be it. Like I had no clue. I should have asked questions, I should have done anything. I just he was just like, you know, we do these every day, all day. Everybody gets induced. So we'll see you later.

Angela 16:29

So, how are you feeling emotionally leading up to that birth?

Katie Spinks 16:33

I was feeling really good for a while, and then I don't know, just out of nowhere, I want to say probably more towards my last few weeks, maybe like 32 plus weeks. I just like got really anxious and nervous. Like it was very weird. It's so hard to explain. It's kind of like like an impending doom feeling. Like I just kept feeling like something bad was gonna happen. Like it was just so strange on Thanksgiving before I had her. I had her January 1st. So that Thanksgiving before I had her, I was like writing out a will in my friend's kitchen, and it was just so weird. I was like, I don't know why. I just feel like I just need to have this stuff on paper because if something ever happens to me, like I just I need people to know like these specific things. Um, it was just weird. I kept feeling like like something bad was gonna happen. I didn't know what, obviously. But it was just so strange. Like I just can't explain it. It was just like very dark feelings, like lots of anxiety. And everybody just kept saying, Oh, it's because you're gonna have four kids. You know, like that's a lot of kids to handle. Four kids is a lot, and you've still got two little ones, so you're just you're just anxious and nervous. And I was like, Yeah, you know, I just I don't know, that's just not how I feel. I don't feel nervous. I feel like I've got a lot of support. I just don't feel nervous. I just I just don't feel right. It was so hard to explain. This went on for weeks, like literally until the day we had her, and even the day we had her, like we woke up late. I was like, I don't even feel like getting ready. Whereas before I would have gotten up, done makeup, and like taking pictures with all my kids and everything. This time I was like, I just I don't know, it just doesn't feel like like a day that I should have a baby. It was just it's very hard to explain, but it just didn't feel right.

Angela 18:11

And how is your husband feeling?

Katie Spinks 18:13

Oh, he felt the same way. He'd we were both talking about it in the car, and before it went silent, he was like, it just something just doesn't feel right. Feels like something bad's gonna happen. But of course, we're not thinking like, oh, this is our intuition telling us that we need to just turn around and go home. It was just everybody kept saying, You're nervous for having four kids, you're nervous for having four kids. And I'm just like, um, yeah, I don't know. But it was, it was definitely tall tale signs. Like we definitely should have listened to those those signs.

Induction Day And Birth Plan Pushback

Angela 18:42

So you were induced on New Year's Day, is that right? Would you walk me through that morning?

Katie Spinks 18:49

Yeah, we got there early. There wasn't a whole lot like going on in there, you know, like it was New Year's Day. Uh, it was it was dark out because I think that it had snowed a little bit prior. Well I got like the labs done. They had me take a urine test. Like we did all the walk-ups before you actually like start the induction. We did all that. I do remember like giving the nurse my birth plan. It was the same one that I used for my second and my third child. It wasn't like anything crazy. I was just like a couple of things on there. I wanted to keep my placenta. I didn't want the baby to be vaccinated. I wanted the cord to be, I wanted delayed cord clamping for at least 90 seconds. Um, I didn't want the baby to leave the room, obviously, unless emergencies happened. And I said that I didn't want to be offered a C-section for prolonged labor unless a C-section were medically necessary or, you know, things went downhill fast. Then obviously, you know, it's like you guys can do whatever you need. Um, but it was just like little simple things like that, that a lot of women can choose what they do and don't want to do. And the nurse was just like, she was very weird about it. She was like, You used this birth plan last time. I remember her being like kind of catty about it. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, that nobody questioned me last time. Like they were totally cool with it. You know, like I remember the nurse at my my third birth, like she loved the placenta thing. She like held it up for my other kids and she was like, and this is where your baby sister was, like, and your mom's gonna take it home. She's gonna, you know, she's gonna do what she's gonna do with it, and it's gonna help her. And like she was like super, they were all super cool about it. And this time they were just like, Oh, that's just so weird. We've never heard of that. I have to ask if if I can if we can do that. And I'm just like, okay, whatever. Um, so yeah, and then they did hook up the plu the Pitocin. Um, I do remember with Jolene, I was not very dilated at all. I think that I was about a centimeter dilated with her. So my body was was not ready. Um, and they did just go straight to Pitocin. And I had a different nurse to start with. And I started early. Maybe it was like closer to eight or nine in the morning. And things were like things were totally fine, you know, like there I really had no issues. I used the peanut ball early on because I liked how it helped last time. Like it helped, like, you know, take kind of like takes the pressure off. So I used that pretty early on. I was using IV narcotics like every four hours. I think I had like two doses before everything went south. Because I was like, well, if the epidural is not didn't work last time and it only worked with my son, it only worked on half my body. I was like, I'm not gonna take the risk this time and go through the pain. I'm getting one for it to just not work. So yeah, I was like perfectly fine. Like I was able to handle the pain and I wasn't breathing through it. We were watching TV and all that. And then the nurse's change shift.

Uterine Rupture And Dismissed Pain

Katie Spinks 21:35

I think it was around 6:30 when the new nurse came in. And it was like very shortly after that, is when everything started going downhill. So when my rupture happened, it was really like small and localized, but but I could feel it. Like it felt like an explosion in my admin. That's like the only way to describe it. It literally feels like like a firecracker going off in you. And my new nurse was like just not as attached. As my other nurse. She was very, I don't know. It just didn't seem like she was all the way there. Maybe she was new, maybe she didn't want to be there. I don't know, but she was just like, you know, you, you should just give nepidural. You need more pain medicine. You're fine. Like your body's probably picking up. Let's check you. And so, of course, I was like, okay, you know, like at first it was really painful, but I was still able to like, you know, handle it. I have a pretty high pain tolerance. So I was okay. Not okay, but I wasn't like screaming at this point. So she did check me. And I do remember I was like getting pretty far along. It was like almost to the transition stage. And she just kept saying, like, we'll get you another, we'll get you an epidural, we'll get you more pain meds. And I was like, I don't really don't want all that. Like something, I don't know, something, something's really, really hurting. So she did give me more pain meds and then she walked out and she was like, you know, let's just see if this works. Let's just see what happens in like 15 minutes. Well, you know, 15 minutes goes by, nothing is getting better. It's still super painful, but because Jolene was able to hold a steady heart rate, they were like, this is just contraction pain. Like, like we don't know what you want us to do. Like, she was very, how do you even describe it? Like, she was very standoffish, like she was very ignorant. She kept saying that like I was being dramatic. She kept saying that I should be used to the pain because I had three kids prior. She kept saying, Well, if you would just get the epidural and relax, you'd be fine. Like, she wasn't doing anything to really assess and like try and figure out what was going on. Cause I I was handling the contractions while like, you know, obviously I was, you know, it was hurts, but it wasn't that insane, like agonizing pain. And as time progresses, like that, it's getting worse and worse. And at some point, like I start screaming and I'm like, I can't handle this anymore. Like, this is unbearable. Like, I'm telling you, like I'm pleading with her. I'm like, I need a C-section. I am telling you something is going wrong. There is something isn't right. This is not right. Like, I don't feel right. This is not contraction pain. And she just would not listen. Like, she just wouldn't listen. And I, it was right as transitioning was happening. I remember her like crouching in a corner and she started like bawling her eyes out. She's like, I don't know what to do. There's no doctor here. Because the doctor was in another emergency C-section. So yeah, they I so I didn't even have anybody. So she's like, crying, I don't know how to deliver a baby. I've never delivered a baby before. And my husband's like sitting there screaming at her. He's like, Well, if you don't know how to deliver a baby, then why are you in here? Like, go get somebody else who knows what they're doing. Like, this is not right. This has never happened before. Like, that this is not right. So I guess at some point she walks out and she does eventually call the on-call doctor. And about like 25, 30 minutes later, the on-call doctor comes in. And this bitch, the only thing she cares about, she too, is holding the birth plan. And the first thing she says when she walks in is, oh, not hi, I'm so and so a doctor you've never met. What's going on? It's I see you want to take your placenta home. That's disgusting, illegal, and I won't let you do it. You will get an infection and kill your baby. Like she was adamant that I'd not take the placenta home. And I remember like just saying to her, I don't give a fuck about the placenta right now. Like something is wrong. Like, you guys need to help me. Like, I need a C-section. Like, I am begging you to give me a C-section. Like, I do not care what that birth plan says. And she's just like, you just need to push. You just need to push your baby out and you'll feel better. And obviously at this point, like I still have no clue what's going on. I didn't even know this could be a thing. I didn't even know a uterus could rupture. I didn't know any of these things could go wrong. So I'm in my head just thinking, maybe this really is just birth pain. But something in me felt like this is not birth pain. And it took like the first push, and I felt it go from like a small spot to like all the way across. And at that point, I was like, I am literally dying. Like I'm telling you guys right now, if you do not take me for a C-section, I'm telling you, I'm going to die. And they they like they just didn't care. So after that first push, and it when it ripped all the way, obviously like she got cut from oxygen like at that point. So her heart rate started to decline a little bit. And so they hooked up the vacuum. And each time I would push and they would pull, it would pop off her head, and then I would pass out because I started losing so much blood. And so they did that about three times. And on the third time, when it popped off and I passed out, her heart rate was like 40 at this point. But I and I didn't wake back up. They were putting the smelling salts in my nose and like doing the chest rubs and oxygen and all this stuff. But like I've lost so much blood at this point. I just would not wake back up. So at that point, then they finally decided to do the c-section. But my husband said they had like no urgency, they weren't like throwing things on the bed and running, that they were just like walking back there. They had him put on the bunny suit. Like they were prepping like this was a normal C-section. Meanwhile, I'm passed out, not even awake. And they're just treating this like such an inconvenience. I guess it wasn't until that they realized that my vitals were like really tanking, and she was at like 20 at this point, that this was not going to be a normal C-section anymore. He said that he was walking in and two nurses came from like each side of him and took him right back out. And then they like blocked off the doors because that I guess they knew at that point they really fucked up and things were not about to go normal. I don't remember any of that though. Like when it popped off the third time, like that was the last thing I remember. It was, it was just, it was like a nightmare, like a literal nightmare. He said that the whole time he was sitting out there, like try like waiting to come in. They wouldn't tell him anything. They were just like, oh, the anesthesiologist needs more time. Like they're trying to set up, you know, like all that. And he was like, I knew they were bullshitting me. I knew the whole time they were bullshitting me. He said it was like an hour later a nurse came back out and said, um, God, what did he say? They said something, but it was like, I can't remember what it was. But he said that it like he knew at that point something was wrong. They came out and said, like, there's doctors working on both of them. Like, do you want us to call somebody to come sit with you? And he said that at that point, like, like he just knew that he he just walked out, walked away. He was like, I couldn't sit there and look at them and their faces anymore. Cause when they came out and said that they're working on both of them, he said, I knew that they fucked up and I just couldn't be there anymore. Like, I don't blame you. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't either. Oh yeah, that's the story with Jolene.

Angela 28:32

Wow, Katie, I'm so sorry. What was the next remember?

Emergency Surgery And HIE Aftermath

Katie Spinks 28:38

So I guess at this point it took them longer to work on me than it did to work on Jolene because by the time they were waking me up, they were wheeling me back into the room. They already had her in the transport cart, like the team was already there, like waiting to take her. So they were just like waking me up like vigorously, rubbing me there, like you, you know, your baby has to go to another hospital. Like you have to wake up so you can just say goodbye. You know, now I'm just sitting there like, I don't know what the fuck is happening. You wake up from an almost four-hour surgery, you're groggy, you're in so much pain, you don't know what's going on. I just wake up and see like a hundred people in my room, and I see like this whole team of like transport nurses, and I see Jelene in a cart. Sorry, that's hard. Um it was just it was a lot. It was a lot. I just remember like being in a lot of pain and I didn't know what was going on. So I think like I saw her, I touched her foot, and then like I was in so much pain, I just like started like screaming. I was like, I can't I can't do this. Like I am in agonizing pain. And they like put something in my IB and then I passed back out until like the next night. Um, I guess they had me on a lot of like fentanyl and morphine, a lot of like narcotics, because it was just it was so painful. It was I was in a lot of pain. And so they transported her. And I so I was in the one hospital and she was in another. And once I was like stabilized, my husband left me because I told him, you know, like like I'm I'm fine at this point. I'm just in a lot of pain. Like, I'm gonna live. So you need to just like go be with her. And so he got up there. I want to say it was probably about 24 hours after she was born. Um, and they had started cooling her. Like they had already started cooling her before we left they left the hospital, but they like did it more in a professional way at the other hospital and and doing all that. And so the first time I saw her, really like saw her was over FaceTime. Uh, and the doctors were like, we don't know much about her or anything that's going on. Like, we we don't know a lot. We just do know that she has what's called HIE, and that's a brain injury. That was the first time I'd ever heard of that. Like, I was like, I don't even know what that is, to be quite honest. Um, so it was just like it was just it was just a lot to take in, you know, like after you go through something like that, and then you're learning this diagnosis and learning that your baby might not even live. Meanwhile, you're in a hospital, you can't you can't leave because if you leave, you won't make it either. It was just, it was a lot. Like, I would never wish that, even on my worst enemy. Uh, I did leave, I think she was like five, five days old. I was able to like finally get up and go to the bathroom. They took McCatheter out and all that. So I was like, I feel like at this point, if I can get up and somebody can help me get to the bathroom, like I just want to leave. So I just I just left. I told them, you can just give me the AMA papers, but I just I can't be here anymore. I gotta I gotta get out of here. So I did. I left um and just went and just stayed with her. I've never seen a baby like that in my life. That was really rough.

Angela 31:48

Would you walk me through like kind of what happened with Jolene in those first moments and and what the doctor at that first hospital did before like her transport?

Katie Spinks 31:58

So I just know what was in the papers and what he told us. So I guess when she was born, obviously she was she had no effort to breathe, she had no pulse, she had nothing. So he had to resuscitate her, I think five, five different times, maybe. Five or six, five, like five or six different times he resuscitated her, you know, and gave her like happy. He did umbilical lines. Once he got a pulse on her, he just, you know, he said he knew we needed to cool her. He's like, the only way this this kid is gonna live is if we cool her and and shut her body down so it doesn't keep spreading. So in like what he did, like literally saved her life. If he had never started cooling her, she would not be here because it was just it was so bad. So he he did, he definitely took extra measures. He put like ice underneath blankets, like he just took things that he could find that were there because this was not a hospital with a NICU. It was there was no nursery, even. It was just like the lowest of the low hospital. So he did, he just like took blankets and ice and ice packs and fans and just started cooling her that way. Um, I don't know if they brought something with the transport cart. I don't know how that worked in transport, but I do know that he was very adamant that they keep her cold while she was being transported. And the doctors at the hospital with the NICU, they said that like everything he did was like above and beyond that most hospitals would have never done that because it's not in their protocols. It's not, it's just not what they do. So they said that because of what he did, he he literally saved her. Obviously, like they did more stuff to save her, but he was like, Because of him, you know, we were able to help her further. Without that, she wouldn't have made it because the cutoff time is six. So I think it's like six hours for cooling from time of injury to cooling. You have that window where if you go past that window, it's just you're looking at like a real rocky road. So she was like right at that, right at that mark. So we're just I'm very, very thankful for him. Because if it weren't for him, she would not be here.

Angela 34:04

Yeah, and he was on one of the only ones that came and talked to you afterwards about like what kind of actually happened to you,

Blame Shifting And Falsified Records

Angela 34:12

right? Because from what I understand from listening to your podcast, you had thought that some of the things were your fault, like the way they had spun it when you left that first hospital. Would you share a little more about like how they made you feel and then how you came to understand like what was actually going on?

Katie Spinks 34:29

Yeah, so he didn't tell me too much. He wasn't there. So, you know, he was like, I can only speak on like what I know and what I saw. He said that she definitely went a significant amount of time without oxygen. There's no way she had just lost it. He's like, she she had been, she had been without a pulse for quite some time by the time he got to her. But so the doctor and the nurse that were with me came back in the day after I woke up. And the nurse like sat on my bed and she was like giggly. She was like, Oh, you know, these things just happen. It just happens. Some women's bodies just aren't made for birth. I do, I do think it's I do this this part pissed me off. So when she sat on my bed, she was like, I should have recognized that you had a rupture because I teach about ruptures at the local college. And I'm thinking in my head, like, if you teach nurses about this, our county is in trouble because you couldn't recognize what you teach about. Like, that is a problem. That is a huge problem. And she was like giggly about it. And I was just like, none of this is funny to me. You you completely ignored and dismissed my concerns. And it led to essentially two people dying on your watch because you didn't know what you were doing. Like, I don't think it's funny. I had nothing else to say to her. And then when the doctor came in, she was like the same thing. She was like, Oh, you know, these things just happen, just like what nurse Amy said. Some women's bodies, they're just not meant for to carry babies. Maybe it's because you had so many pregnancies before. We don't, we don't know. And I'm thinking in my head, like, you guys couldn't be any colder if you tried. You could not be any colder. And they did, so they like spun it on me because they had that birth plan that said, don't offer me a c-section for pro-long labor. Like they used it, they used it against me. Oh, the mom had a signed birth plan saying that she didn't want a c-section. Meanwhile, I literally was like verbalizing to them, like, I don't give a fuck about this birth plan. Like, do what you have to do. If you have to cut me right here on this bed while I am alive and awake, like, do what you have to do. They just they did not care. They used everything they could against me. The fact, oh, look, the mom wants a more natural birth plan. The mom doesn't want vaccines on her baby, the mom doesn't want her cord to be cut, like she didn't want any of this. She didn't even want an epidural. And I'm just like, you got that. That's just that's so wrong. That's just just wrong.

Angela 36:45

Yeah, I heard you share that in another podcast, and I've been thinking about it. And I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts on birth plans? Well, now, as you're Adula and childbirth educator, like, what are your thoughts on birth plans being used against women? Like, your birth plan said you didn't want to be offered a C-section for exhaustion, and then in your records, it said they had to do the cesarean because you passed out due to exhaustion. Yeah. Essentially saying they didn't offer you one sooner because they're honoring your birth plan. Like, I've seen this often where moms I've worked with with have had things go askew in their births, and doctors just bring it back to, but your birth plan said this and that, essentially using it against them. And falsifying medical records is not rare, unfortunately. It happens to a lot of people. And I'm starting to think birth plans give doctors and nurses like an out when things go wrong.

Katie Spinks 37:35

I, and you know, that's exactly how I feel at this point. Like, on one hand, I love birth plans. Like, I love that somebody can vocalize what they want and be able to make choices for themselves. And then on the other hand, I'm like, if you actually give a copy to the doctor and a nurse and something goes wrong, they're gonna use this against you. And then they're gonna use that as their out and they're gonna pin the blame on you. So it's like, I like what my thing is now, like I like birth plans. If I'm going to a birth with somebody and I'm like, give me the plan because uh no, I I'm your I'm just your advocate. Like I'm here to just make sure you get what you want and get what you need. Like you verbalize to them what you want, but you give to me in writing what you want. Because if they're if something goes south and they're doing something to you and you don't want, I'm gonna tell your partner, your husband, your wife, your whatever, hey, she put this in her birth plane and she said that she doesn't want this, or she said that she does want this. Like, but you need to speak up for her. Like, obviously, I will too, but like it's just a way so that way they can't use it against them. Because if the doctor puts in the notes, oh, well, Mrs. Smith told me she wanted, whereas it's compared to, oh, well, I have a letter from Mrs. Smith. It's it's a little bit different. So I'm like, it sucks because obviously it's so nice for them to have that birth plan, but at this point, you're just gonna have to verbalize it with them. Well, I'll do it with you, you know, but do not give them a written birth plan because they're gonna use it against you. It's hard, it shouldn't be that way. Mom shouldn't be terrified to go into the hospital and be like, Am I gonna leave alive? Are we both gonna leave alive? If I say something, are they gonna use it against me? It's like, you know, no wonder they don't want anybody recording anything in the birthroom because that's evidence in itself. It's just it all like it all clicks, it all makes sense now why so many things are the way they are. And it's it's wrong. It only protects them, but hurts women and babies.

Angela 39:27

Yeah, it is so wrong. And I completely agree with you everything you just said in the last few births that I've been to that have been at the hospitals. I've told the moms like the same thing, like, don't give them a written birth plan. Like, yeah.

Katie Spinks 39:39

Yeah, they're just gonna use it against you. Why why bother? It's it's hard enough going through something traumatic, but then turning around and feeling like it's your fault when you're already grieving and you're already like depressed and dealing with all those emotions to then sit there and feel like, man, I caused this, like I'm the reason this happened is just that's terrible. No woman should ever feel that way, even though like logically you're like, Well, I didn't I screamed and pleaded for my life. Like, you know, it's it's hard. Like your mind fights with reality and trying to not accept what you're told. If a doctor tells you it's your fault, well, like what else are you supposed to think? You know, even though your logical mind is like, no, that's not my fault. I I was trying to get you to listen. It's it's so hard. So it just it is it sucks, but things they shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't. It's scary.

Birth Plans And Patient Rights

Angela 40:30

How did you come to finding out like what was really going on, like your truth in that whole situation as Jolene's NICU journey went on?

Katie Spinks 40:42

Honestly, I didn't find out really a lot of the truth until she was like, like I said, like two years old. And and I enjoyed the internet world and I had talked to more professionals, midwives, OBs, doctors, NICI doctors, nurses, you know, talking to the nurses at the hospital that took care of her, the doctors who took care of her. It was like everybody, what everything was saying, everything I read, like it all just it all aligned. Like I did leave the Nikki when she was discharged, knowing that it wasn't my fault because the even the doctors and the nurses, they were like, This was not your fault. You did not delay your care. They delayed your care. They're like, this was not some accident. You didn't just get in a car accident and this happened. They were like, This, this kid went a significant amount of time without oxygen. Like there were tall tail signs. You were hooked up to the monitor, they were charting, like you were hooked up and they should have known. They should have, they should have moved faster and they didn't. They're like, that this is not your fault. So, like when they put that in my head, and they're the ones who told us, like, go talk to a lawyer, just go talk to one, see what you can find out. Um, that I started, like, you know, slowly piecing all the puzzle pieces together. Um, but when I find out, found out that my medical records were falsified, that just gave me like more of a push to want to find out even more. So she was probably like two years old, and I found out like, this is this is scary. This is and this is not rare. I am not like the doctor and the nurse were like, this is so rare. You're never gonna find anybody like you. Like, oh yeah, I definitely, definitely did. I found a lot more people like me. It's not rare. And it's 99.99% of the time because doctors and nurses just don't listen. We're always just pushed off. You know, it's like what they say in women's health care. They make everything seem like we're just anxious, like when really like women don't get hurt until they're literally dying. And even then, women will die and they'll be like, Oh, you should have gotten care sooner. And it's like, should I? Like, try, try to, nobody would listen.

Angela 42:49

Yeah, so after Jolene's birth, did you what it did you think you could get pregnant again?

Katie Spinks 42:56

No, they told me that there was no way I could get pregnant again. They said that there was just so much scar tissue, so much damage. They're like, there's just no way you could get pregnant again. I don't even know why I trust them, trusted them at this point. I think maybe I was still like delusional, like disassociated, and like thinking at this point I could still fully trust them because I shouldn't have trusted them. I shouldn't have listened to them at all. But I did. I did get pregnant like the very first time. We weren't even trying, but I was like, okay, like I just had a baby, I'm still pumping. Um, because before, like when I had my other kids, I was able to use like pumping and all that as a way to keep from getting pregnant. Uh this time, uh, I felt like I was far more fertile this time, which is crazy. And I did get pregnant, and I lost that baby about halfway into the pregnancy. And, you know, the I had a different doctor at this point. And he was like, I know, I don't know. I can't explain it. Your pathology, everything looks totally normal. We're just gonna we we don't know. We don't have an explanation for you. He was like, you know, but clearly you can get pregnant. So you do with that information what you want to do. But at this point, um, you know, like we really wanted another baby. We wanted like a lot of kids. And so we I got pregnant again after I healed from that loss. And the same exact thing happened again. Like I lost her halfway in. The doctor was finally like, all right, you, if you keep getting pregnant, this is clearly just gonna keep happening. He's like, I can't tell you 100%. He's like, but I I feel like there's just a lot of scar tissue that maybe we can't see on an ultrasound. Like, there's obviously something going on with your uterus. Your body just can't handle being pregnant anymore. Because when I got to that halfway point, you know, like your body starts stretching more. He was like, So if your body is expelling pregnancies, when you're getting to that point, then obviously you just, you should not have any more, any more kids. He's like, if I were you or you were my wife, I would just tell you to to just get sterilized. Because if you have another baby or you get pregnant again, you could risk not only you dying, but the baby dying as well. He's like, this is just, this is too dangerous. So like I did listen to him. I was like, I'm not, I don't want to play with with fire like that. I think like after I healed from that loss, I did go and have a partial hysterectomy. Um, and that doctor who did the hysterectomy, he said, I just do not understand why they didn't take your uterus out when you had the C-section. He was like, Your uterus was probably the most trashiest uterus I've ever seen in my career. He was like, it looked like shredded cheese stitched back together. He's like, I don't, I don't know why they did that to you. He's like, something could have happened down the road in when you were having your period or get into a car, something could have happened to you and you could have like bled out and died because they kept they put that uterus back in you. He's like, they should have just taken it out. I was like, Well, I guess that's nice to know. I mean, I'm not surprised they they fucked everything else up, you know. Why not mess that up too? Um, so yeah, I think I had that done in like 2021. Yeah, 2021. But it's like the issues from all this just never went away. Like I had the most horrific like scar pain for the longest time. Like I had so many adhesions on my pelvis. It's just like people think like, oh, you're you got surgery, you got healed up, like you're fine. It's like, no, the issues never stopped. And then because of all the scar tissue from all that, I had a torsed ovary that made me go septic this past August. It's like it just, it just doesn't ever stop. Like, I feel like this is just this is a nightmare. And who knows? I'm like, I only have one ovary left because I'm trying to cling on to it because I'm only 37, you know, like I really don't want to go through menopause right now. Uh, but it's like they just they, you know, like it sucks because they get to move on from what they did. Meanwhile, here we are six years later, and we will deal with the consequences of the lack of their actions for the rest of our lives, between the the all the scar pain and stuff from my surgery, and then obviously Jolene's brain injury. Like it's just it never ends for us. Meanwhile, them they just they just get to live their lives, and there's no no like repercussions for them. And it's like it's like you said, it's not rare that it happens to to a lot of women. Like, there's a lot of families like mine out there living with the same pain that we do. Meanwhile, their doctors are still practicing, like still doing what they do. It's not fair.

Angela 47:32

It's definitely not fair.

Katie Spinks 47:34

Not at all. It's hard. It's hard to like see. Like one time her Facebook, the doctor's Facebook, popped up on my like people you may know thing. And I'm like, here's her and her family at Disney World with all her kids, you know, and I'm like, must be nice. We'll never be able to do that with our family because we have a child like Jolene. Meanwhile, you guys get to go do stuff like that because nobody did that stuff to you. You're just living your life. It's just like it's such a like a like a slap in the face.

Angela 48:00

Do you care to name her?

Katie Spinks 48:02

Oh, absolutely. Her name is Elizabeth Lavery.

Angela 48:06

And this is in Virginia. So yeah. What do you wish more women understood about their legal and ethical human rights versus hospital policy?

Katie Spinks 48:16

I wish they knew they had them. I feel like way too many women think that policy is law and it's not. If a hospital policy is there, it's to protect the workers, not to protect the patient. Like you do not have to follow the policy. If you want to do something off policy, do it. You do you don't have to do what they want you to do. And if they don't like it, request somebody else. Like there's somebody in that hospital that will provide you adequate care, care, no matter what you want. You know, to an extent, obviously you can't be there like chugging booze in labor. But if you want to get up and walk around or use the birthing tub or take the monitor off because you're just in there having natural contractions, like, you know, do what you want to do. It's it's your birth. If you're making an informed choice, do it.

Angela 49:05

Yeah. I tell moms to like just use the hospital room as like a hotel room, just like go in, use it as like your room. Like it's your consumer. Right.

Katie Spinks 49:14

I say the same thing. I'm like, if your insurance is gonna pay for it, I mean, why not? You don't, they don't have to do things to you and they can't kick you out. They can't be like, oh, we have to leave because you don't want an IV. Like, that's not their place to say. If you don't want one, if you're a low-risk mom and you're not like with a blood pressure of 250 over, you know, 180, there then there's nothing wrong with that. Do do what you want to do.

Angela 49:36

Yeah, definitely. So, from your perspective, as a mom who's been through what you've been through and also as a doula and childbirth educator, how does a traumatic hospital birth change a woman's relationship with the medical system?

Trauma, Trust, And Autonomy After Harm

Katie Spinks 49:51

Oh man, that's it's hard. It changes like everything about it. For the first couple years of Jolene's life, I didn't trust any doctors. None of them didn't trust doctors, nurses. If you had a letter behind your name, I did not trust you whatsoever. It didn't matter how nice you were. I questioned everything you said. But now that we're like six years in, obviously Jolene still, she needs a medical team. She needs a team full of specialists, she needs therapists, she needs to have stability, she needs medical stability, she needs people who know what her baseline looked like. It like forces you to like let go of that discomfort. And I wouldn't say that I just trust doctors, you know. I feel like I go into it not like with my walls up, but smarter. Um, like she does have a couple doctors I do trust. Like I love them. If they recommend we do something, I'm like, okay, can you give me a couple minutes while I just look this stuff up? And they're really good with me. Like I explained to them, like, you guys have to understand why I question everything you say. And they absolutely do. They don't fight me at all. They're great. Like we are very, I am very thankful to have a team like that, but I definitely question everybody, whereas I used to just distrust them. There was just an automatic distrust. Now I just, I just question it and I don't just listen. Where if they're like, when she was, um, we went to Mexico a couple months ago and she needed to go to the hospital, and they're like, oh, she needs these labs, she needs this, she needs that. And I'm like, you know, I don't feel like she does. If you can give me like a sound medical reason why she needs this and what you're gonna do with this and how it's gonna make your treatment better, then we'll do it. But if you're doing it just to do it, I don't feel comfortable doing that. Where like now I'm like not afraid to stand up for myself or for her, and I'm just like not afraid to be vocal rather than just being like, okay, sure, you want to do that, do it. Just go ahead. I just don't do that anymore.

Angela 51:52

Which is essentially like developing autonomy, you know, of just like having that confidence to say, like, you know, get all the information and say like what you think about it, really. I just feel like that's I wish more women would would work on that too, like in preparation, right?

Katie Spinks 52:08

Right. So like you just you have the information at your hand to say yes or no rather than to be like, oh, well, I told them they could, but I didn't know why. I didn't question it. For now, like I asked all the questions. And if it makes me look crazy, crazy, it makes me look crazy, but at least I will have the information. So if something does go wrong, I can be like, all right, you know what? I'm the one that chose this based off of this. So, like, you know, I will take responsibility rather than just be like, oh, well, they they said it, and then I get blamed for it anyway. So it's just, I would just much rather make all of the informed choices and have the information to make informed choices than to just be like, okay, do what you gotta do, or be like, no, no, don't do that, don't do that. Because then, you know, that can cause a whole lot of other issues. It's just nice to be able to still have a relationship while not being like submissive.

Angela 53:00

Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. How do you see traumatic hospital birth experiences directly fueling the desire for some women to free birth? I see, I feel like I see that a lot now.

Katie Spinks 53:15

Um, not even just free birth. Like some women are like, I just want to stay home, I just want a midwife at my house, like I just want somebody there for backup just in case, okay, which I get, I get you want somebody there for backup, you know, do what you want to do at your birth. Um I I mean, I could definitely see it. I would be scared shitless to go back into a hospital and have another baby. Like, even being in a hospital six years later, doesn't matter what hospital it is, it like triggers the PTSD and anxiety, like the smell of alcohol swabs, the look of a hospital bed, like the color of a hospital. It's very triggering. So I can definitely see where, like, you know, like birth is hard enough in itself. It's hard, it's it can be triggering for some women. It just it's it can be a really hard experience. So you don't want to add that trauma and anxiety and all those feelings onto it because then you know, like once you get into like you're fully anxious, you're panicking and all that, you could either just submit to whatever they want to do and things could go south again, or you could just say no when you actually need something. It just like it clouds your judgment when you're panicking and you don't know what to say or what to do. Um, and you can't make informed choices. So I could, I mean, I could definitely understand why so many women are like, I cannot go back into a hospital. I can't do it. I I I completely see where they're coming from. You just you don't understand it unless you've been through it. Like the PTSD and the way the little things can trigger you into a full-blown like panic that can last for days and days. It's it's exhausting and painful.

Angela 54:55

Are you familiar with the Free Birth Society? Have you heard much about them or not that much?

Katie Spinks 54:59

A little bit. I know a friend on Facebook who is a free birther and she talks like a lot about it. Like I've learned a lot of free birthing through her, and then she has like friends at free birth too. So like I just look at their conversations a lot. I don't like read anything from the society. I've heard of it, but I don't know like a whole lot about it. I just know, like, I guess, about what free birth is and why women choose it and and about it through through women who've done it.

Angela 55:25

So the whole reason I'm doing this whole series is because the leaders of the free birth society were kind of feeding on all of the women who've had birth trauma and just telling them that just go on free birth. There's nothing ever goes wrong in a free birth. And then there's been a lot of women who have had obviously like birth is birth. Sometimes things happen, and just getting that information where there's nothing ever goes wrong was really harmful for some women. So I just am trying to balance out their stories with obviously there's also a lot of harm happening in the hospitals. Yeah. So that's why I'm including your story in these series that I'm doing. There's actually a six-part podcast from The Guardian that just did a year-long investigation on them. If you're curious, like I definitely point you towards their podcast, like kind of explains it all.

Katie Spinks 56:12

So ever say that to somebody that's like telling parents, oh, don't buckle your kids in a car seat because there was a kid in 1993 who got strangled in their car seat. Like, things can go wrong anywhere. Things can go wrong eating dinner. Okay, like things can go wrong any time of the day, no matter what you're doing. The difference is, is do you have the information to make proper choices and stuff like that? Not just do god, that's so dangerous. Oh my god, did people die? Did women die? Women, babies, yeah. Oh my god, that's so sad. That is so sad, so sad. And I'm sure the people who were like super like into hospital births and stuff are like, see, that's why everybody needs to birth in a hospital.

Angela 56:54

I feel like it is, like you just said, like this story, it's a story about information, is and so it's a story about just informed consent and it's about each person's relationship with safety. And that looks like everybody, you know, like you said, like you can die eating dinner, but do we go and eat our dinners at hospitals just in case we choke on our steak, you know?

Katie Spinks 57:13

No, you learn how to properly do it, like driving a car. You can die driving in a car, but you learn how to safely do it so that way you can do it in a safe manner and get back home. It's like that's what I tell people about birth all the time. Like, you can safely do it, but there's also an unsafe way to do it. And going in blind, having absolutely no information and some being submissive to the hospital. Yeah, you're you're probably gonna end in a C-section. You go in there, your cervix is zero, you are completely like zero percent effaced. Like you're you do not need Pitocin. You need to go in there with information, make informed choices, like do what's best for you and your baby. And if you decide after getting all the information, you still want to hop in the potosin train, by all means, do it. Just know what to look out for. Like, there's like just it's crazy the way people think that birth is literally one way or the other. Like it can go bad for anybody. Like, just know what you're doing, and your chances of it going right are way higher. Even if you're high risk and you do need an induction, like do the induction properly and you will end in a vaginal birth. Do it improperly, you're gonna end in a C-section. Like, come on now. It's just the way so many women are like manipulated and coerced into thinking every woman's body needs an induction and every baby dies after like 39 weeks. I swear that whoever started that just needs to be like in prison because maybe someone just die after 39 weeks. Like, this is not how it works. It's crazy.

Angela 58:39

After everything you've been through, how has your understanding of informed consent changed?

Katie Spinks 58:45

Um, well,

Pitocin Risks And The Informed Consent Gap

Katie Spinks 58:46

I now know what it is. I don't think I really knew what it was before. Like, you know, like I told you before, I really just trusted anybody that had a letter behind their name. I'm like, well, they went to school. Surely they know what they're doing. They wouldn't tell me to do this if it wasn't safe or if it wasn't best. I just didn't ask any questions. And now I ask all the questions. Like, even if I walk in with a list this long, I'm gonna ask all of them. I want to make sure I have all of the information and I'm agreeing to something or declining something because I've read all about it and I feel like it's the best choice. Whereas before I just I didn't, I just did whatever they said. So I just I didn't know what informed consent really was until afterwards.

Angela 59:28

Yeah, I feel like that's the case with a lot of moms. I know in my first birth, I didn't know really.

Katie Spinks 59:33

Like you don't really know it's nothing. Yeah, a lot of women do that, especially like when you're younger or first-time mom, you just you just do what they what they say. You don't really know there's a whole nother world until something goes wrong, and you're like, I can't possibly be the only one. And then you find you are not possibly the only one, you are one of thousands, maybe even millions, who knows?

unknown 59:55

Yeah.

Angela 59:56

What do you wish you'd known about Petocin before going into labor with Jolene?

Katie Spinks 1:00:03

Everything.

Angela 1:00:04

I wish I'd known everything.

Katie Spinks 1:00:06

If somebody, but if we're being real, one thing, if somebody had sat down and told me the risks, like sat down, like you and I are talking and just been like, here, I want you to know that these are the risks. If you agree to have this drug, all of these things can happen to you. All of these things can happen to your baby. I want you to know that there's a such and such chance you could end in a C-section. I want you to know all of these things so that way we can make a proper plan, not just this is what you're getting. Adios, you know, like a conversation. I know that so many women are like, oh, you sign a piece of paper saying that you know, but that's not the same thing as an informed conversation. Like, and when an anesthesiologist comes in, they sit down, they don't even get your signature until they've had you look them in the eye and have a whole conversation about anesthesia and what the risks are, and all of you know, a whole informed conversation, and then you sign the piece of paper. So, like, why can't obscure doctors do like why? It makes no sense if other doctors can do it before they're giving you a risky procedure or a risky drug. Surely NOB can do it too. Like, surely, or even the nurse do it, somebody do it. So many women like me, I can't just read a piece of paper and understand something. I'm more of like, I need you to tell me verbally, like face to face about something, because I can't just read it and understand. I understand better by having a conversation. And I know like so many other women are like that. Plus, you know, when you go in for an induction or you go in to have your baby, you're not sitting down thinking, thinking straight. You're you're already nervous, you know, you're anxious. So reading a piece of paper, you're not going to be like, oh yeah, I understand this. I understand this. So many women don't even know what a uterine rupture is. They don't know what a tacky uterus is. So reading it on a piece of paper, just that's just confusing. So just I just wish somebody would have sat down and just explained it to me, like what the risks are and like made a plan rather than just doing it all without me involved. I just wanted to be involved.

Angela 1:02:11

Yeah, absolutely. Like that's should be expected of for everybody. Yeah. From your perspective, why do you think informed consent is so often overlooked or bypassed in hospital birth settings? Because, in my experience, it's very common for care providers to present these interventions as the only option rather than offering the true informed choice, which leads very directly to many women experiencing births that they're describing as traumatic, even when on the outside looking in, they're healthy and their baby's healthy. But really, it comes back to they didn't have informed consent and they were not in charge of making their own decisions. So, why do you think these conversations that are crucial to have so that people don't have birth trauma are not happening?

Katie Spinks 1:02:55

I think it's because honestly, if we're being real, it's just easier for the doctor. It's just easier for the doctor to come in and be like, okay, we're starting you on pitocin. The nurse is gonna do, she's gonna check you every hour, and we'll see how you progress in five hours. Like it's just easier for them to come in, say what they're doing, and walk out rather than being like, okay, let me pull up a chair and talk to you. We're gonna go over the risks, we're gonna go over the possible outcomes, we're gonna go over a plan. We're gonna do like that. Just takes too much of their time. They don't want to waste 30, 30 minutes to an hour in a room with a woman who's already nervous, whereas that hour could be spent with them already starting the drug and already getting things moving and all that. It's just like, it's like a race. You ever see like the way sometimes hospitals run, like sometimes when I go into them and I see the birthing ward, it's like everybody is like so fast-paced, they're like, do, do, do, do, do. And I'm just like, you like settle down. This this isn't a race. If that woman is in that room for six days because that's what's safest for her and her baby, so be it. Like, if you have to have her here for monitoring for 24 hours and then send her home and then have her come back, so be it. It just everybody is in so much of a rush. And I feel like the biggest thing is if women really know the risks of these interventions and drugs, they're gonna say no. They're gonna say, you know what? I'm actually gonna go home. Um, and my baby isn't in danger and I'm not in danger, I don't, I don't want to do this anymore. And then that wastes not only their time, that also makes like their schedule. They're not gonna know what's gonna happen. Like they like the fact that they can schedule things and they know where they're gonna be at what time, rather than just being like on call, like, oh, 11:30 p.m., somebody's having a baby, and then they got to come in. Like, they don't like that. They like things to go on time, on their schedule, as they know, rather than it just being like, we don't know, we don't know. And then, you know, more women denying intervention. I'm sorry, I don't care what anybody says. The more intervention that they give, the more money they make. Because if you look at your hospital bills and your like all the itemized receipts, everything costs money. And the physician in hospital get paid a portion of that. So if you take all those interventions away, that's a whole list of like money that's not going towards them. Like that's just how I feel. Um, I don't know if you follow Dr. Bill Chan too, but he talks a lot about it, how they do make more money for more things. And it just makes sense. Like it makes sense. The more you do, the more you get. So the less you do, the less you get. And why would they want that? You know, like why would they want that? That's just it's obviously it's messed up, but that's just how it is. They they want to go fast, they don't want their schedule to not be pristine and scheduled during the day, and they need an income. So it's just they're not gonna sit down and tell one of these things. And they, I've seen it too where doctors don't like when a woman comes in informed. They they do not like it at all. Some nurses too, they get very like catty and rude and stuff. And it's like, how are you gonna be mad at somebody for choosing what to do with their body? How? I don't understand that. It's crazy.

Angela 1:06:04

It is absolutely crazy. And I just hope that more doctors and nurses know. I know a lot of doctors and nurses do listen to this podcast. And if you're a doctor or nurse and are listening, like these are women's peak life events that you're facilitating. Just respect it as that. You know, it's a peak life event. It's so important. Like you're always going to remember like the day you gave birth, no matter how it goes. So like be kind, please. Inform your patients. Maybe even be a little bit like your Jolene's NICU doctor that broke policy and outside the box because it was the right thing to do.

Katie Spinks 1:06:42

Absolutely. And like you said, like it's we're going to remember it forever. You when you have a baby, even if you go home and your baby goes home, it doesn't matter. You don't just have the happy baby or that healthy baby, healthy mom thing is so it's so wrong because it's just, it's not true. Like your experience still matters. And if you have trauma from having birth, that trauma follows you for the rest of your life. You don't just, it doesn't just go away. You know, it takes years to sometimes finally even sit down and be able to come to terms with it. Like it took me five years to sit down and like accept what happened. And then that's just like that, that's a lot, you know, that's a lot. And it really does interfere with a lot of other things. People don't realize that. When you go home from your birth, it doesn't stay in the hospital, it follows you for the rest of your life. And like just being a good doctor and a good nurse really can make or break an experience, even if my rupture was completely random and it just happened even with apitocin or even with pitocin. If my nurse had just shown me compassion, if she had just cared enough to check, if the doctor had just cared to check, like we would we just wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. Like it just things happen. Obviously, things happen, but it's about how you handle it. And if you handle it crappy and cold, you're gonna you're just gonna ruin somebody's life. You're gonna ruin somebody's life. And it's gonna be really hard to come back from that.

Angela 1:08:10

Would you

Stem Cells And Intensive Therapy Progress

Angela 1:08:11

tell me about some of the treatments you've been pursuing for Jolene? That I I know I've been following you on Instagram and like you've been noticing some improvements. So let's see.

Katie Spinks 1:08:22

Last year she went for a treatment called Cytotron in Mexico. That was a 28-day treatment. It was supposed to like build new pathways in the brain. And she definitely showed a lot of improvements after that. Like before we went there, she would vomit all the time, every day, like five to ten times a day, every day. She couldn't gain weight. Like it was just, it was exhausting how much she would vomit and how much we struggled to get her to gain weight. I want to say, like a week after we were home, she's vomited maybe one, maybe two times in the last year. So she's been able to gain weight, which helps her, you know, in therapies and to progress and all that. So she had a lot of improvements from that. And then she's had umbilical cord stem cells and cord blood, which really helped with her vision and cognitive skills. Then she went for a new treatment called Muse cells. It's a type of stem cell, which she has shown like amazing improvements for that. And then she's also done a round of intensive therapy. So, like usually for physical therapy for kids like her, they go once a week for like an hour a day. And that's it. So intensive therapy, it's five days a week, anywhere from like two to four hours a day, depending on what is best for the child. For Jolene, it's two hours. So she'll go for two hours a day, every day for three weeks. And it just really helps like muscle memory with kids like her, because repetition is so important. Like it is crucial for kids like her. So when you pair those kind of therapies, like the stem cell therapy and the physical therapy, they work together. And the improvements when you like do them right are just they're amazing. So she's had a whole lot of treatment in the last year. Cause I know when kids turn like seven, like the neuroplasticity starts to settle in their brains. So obviously they can still improve, you know, like she could still continue going, still improving. It just wouldn't be as much as it is now. Like her brain is like a sponge now. You could easily manipulate it and she can heal much better now. But when she turns seven, it just kind of settles down some. So what she will have when she's like seven and further is probably what she's gonna have for the rest of her life. Obviously, she can still improve here and there, but the improvement she's made over the last year is like night and day. I don't know if you followed us like a year or two ago, but um, it was just, it was a lot. She was always seizing. She couldn't hold herself up. She had absolutely no arm strength, like her head would drop a lot. She couldn't sit up straight. She had a hard time being on her legs. It just, she was very, very, very weak. You know, she could sit up and she could roll, but she wasn't very interactive either. She wasn't using both of her hands together. Like she's just doing so much more now than she was like two years ago, even this time last year, because we didn't leave until June last year. Um, so all these treatments, they're just they're so amazing. I hate that they are not covered. And I hate that we don't know about them until we find out through like word of mouth. Because I feel like if we had done these treatments years ago, she could probably be like walking with a walker right now because she tries so hard, even crawling. You could tell she her body wants to do it. It's the brain and the body that's not connecting. So she wants to, but her body's just not cooperating. So I feel like if we had started years ago, she would just be doing so much more now. But I'm just, you know, I'm thankful that we found it that we're doing it now. And hopefully, with everything I can pack into like the next six months, it'll really help her. Cause I'm like nervous. I'm like, once she hits seven, I know it's not gonna cut off obviously like that day, you know, but I'm like, how much more can she really do after that? So we'll see. We'll see. But we're gonna definitely keep keep doing stuff for her because it's it's definitely helping. It's definitely helping.

Angela 1:12:14

So,

What Real Maternity Care Change Takes

Angela 1:12:15

as a final question, what do you think it will take to see some changes in maternity care?

Katie Spinks 1:12:20

A system rebuild. Somebody is gonna have to care enough to want to put their foot down and be like, our system needs to change. Because I feel like honestly, our system is going backwards little by little by little. Women are convinced that their babies die after 39 weeks. There are women who truly think their placentas also die after 39 weeks. There are women who who say, Oh, I'm scheduled for my elective induction at 37 weeks because my baby's full term. And it's just like, who is telling you these things? Who is telling you guys these things? And it's just until the mortality rate and the C-section rate gets well over 50. I just don't think anybody's gonna care. People are looking at it like, oh, it's only at almost 40%. Like that's not that bad. And it's like, are you kidding me? We are in 2026. We're supposed to be like a developed country, and we have like the worst statistics of all the first world countries. So how I don't understand how nobody's standing up yet. I feel like it's really gonna take more deaths, more injuries. Like you're gonna need to see a lot more horrible things happen for somebody to be like, okay, maybe we do need to do something. Until then, it's just gonna keep getting worse and worse. Like, I know that I feel like in the last year, HIE has really skyrocketed. Like there are people coming out left and right. Like, I constantly get messages to my inboxes. It's it's at least weekly. At least. Um, well, I just had my baby, you know, like I was induced and my doctor didn't listen. Now my baby has HIE or my baby just died. It's just, it's just constant. It's constant. Whereas I want to say, like two years ago, or even when I first started posting, it wasn't a whole lot. Like it was women who had already been through it. So, you know, it wasn't people like it just happened, it just happened, but it's just happening more and more and more. And until things get worse and worse and worse, nobody, nobody's gonna do anything. They're gonna wait till it gets really bad. But then at that point, it's like dude, you've already done all the damage. The damage is done. You somebody needs to do something now to prevent it from happening. Um same with like I know this is probably off topic, but like I asked my daughter's teacher. She does school and home. So her teacher comes to our house. She's homebound, and she was telling me that she's like exhausted, she's overworked, you know, she's older, she wants to retire, but she can't. She's like, we don't have enough help. We have so many kids. She said that in one day, it was like two weeks ago, they had interviews for eight kids in just the morning, brand new kids coming into like aging into the school system. And I was like, I know you don't have to tell me. You don't have to tell me like anything you're not allowed to. Why are these kids disabled? Like, what happened? Are these genetic disorders? Like, what's going on? She's like birth. They're they're all from birth. Everything is from birth. I'm like, I knew it. I I knew it. Every time I talk to somebody, it's always birth related. Always. It's like, how many more kids do these people really want to see suffer until they do something? Like, how many women are struggling with just wanting to not be here? How many moms do kill themselves because the pain, not only physically but mentally, of uh living a life like this or even dealing with trauma like that? It just is too much sometimes. Like it's just too much. It's just I feel like they want things to get that bad before they actually do something, but that's what it's gonna take. It's just gonna take for things to get significantly worse before somebody does something. We need a new system. We need one badly. You know what else we need? We need doctors and nurses to stop going online and telling women that inductions don't carry risks. Like, I am so sick of seeing doctors. Oh, it's fine. We do inductions every day, they end in vaginal birth, it's perfectly fine. But does the mom leave traumatized? Is the mom traumatized? Like it ended in a vaginal birth. Is she okay? Like what happened, you know? Stop telling women that they're gonna be fine because you don't know that. You don't know that.

Angela 1:16:21

Yeah, that part's not talked about. It's just like another Tuesday. We just do this, you know, every day. It's you know, no big deal, just another day for them.

Katie Spinks 1:16:28

We've already done 15 this morning. What's another one? It's like you were you're pumping a mom's body full of drugs, hooking her up to monitors and having her lay on her back like dead cattle. What do you mean? Like that's not okay. Not okay. The whole system is the system is just crazy. It's just crazy.

Angela 1:16:47

Yeah, the system is it's almost like the system is designed that way, I feel like, for a reason. And it's actually the way it was designed, it's working just fine. But unf of course, inside of that, there are plenty of good doctors and nurses, you know. Like you said, obviously we came across some that were not good. And and it's hard even for the doctors and nurses that truly do care, like to be in this system in these situations. And yeah, I really think that, you know, when women start standing up for their births, you know, as the consumers of this business model of healthcare, you know, when they stop going in and doing whatever the doctors want them to do and they start saying, I'll take this, but not that, or whatever they actually want, like from an informed place with all of the information. Like, that's just, you know, it's it's on the women, you know, the consumers to say, Hey, tell me more about this, or I'll do this and not that, you know, like not just have like a one-size-fits-all birth.

Katie Spinks 1:17:41

I agree. They have to stand up for themselves. It just sucks because like you're either gonna get a doctor who's like cold. I'm all for that. If you're doing that because you've researched it, or a doctor that's gonna be like, your choice is gonna kill your baby. Your baby's gonna die. You're gonna die. Everybody's gonna die. It's like, well, obviously, if you're gonna tell a mom that she's gonna be, she's gonna be co-erced into changing her mind. So it's like the system, like you said, it's it's doing what it was designed to do. People need to stand up against the system, and somebody needs to also somebody bigger with like more power needs to stand up against the system, too, because the system is garbage. It's absolute garbage.

Angela 1:18:16

Well,

Why Katie Keeps Sharing Publicly

Angela 1:18:17

Katie, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and just for doing everything that you're doing with you know, sharing so much awareness about this topic, like online. I I know it's can't be easy to talk about, but just really appreciate you so much for just spreading so much awareness about this topic because more moms need to know about this.

Katie Spinks 1:18:37

I agree. That's why I do it because like it's it's so important. It just takes that one person to be like, your story really changed my life before you. I was gonna go in for a 39-week induction. Instead, I waited for spontaneous labor. I had a baby, and we both left not only alive, but happy, and and I loved my birth. And it's like, that's why I share. Like, it's so important. Or for a mom to be like, Well, I saw your story, and I also was told I was alone. There was nobody else like me, and you made me feel more seen. It's like it's just it's so important that the people who've been through it have somebody who can resonate, and then the people, the women who might not have had a baby get access to information because knowledge, knowledge is just powerful. You can do a lot with it rather than going in blind.

Kate Sutherland 1:19:27

Follow

Closing Song by Kate Sutherland

Kate Sutherland 1:19:28

the walk of the wild ones into the woods and the darkness. Rebirth the ways of the ancient ones whose tracks were washed away in blood. It falls to us now to open up and taste beyond what we've been fed. Take up the feed, expire, cleansing, change to light the path and said, Follow the walk of the wild ones, into the woods and the darkness. Rebirth the ways of the ancient ones, whose tracks were washed away. It falls to us now to open up and taste beyond what we pretend. Take up the feet, expire cleansing, change to like the path to set. Step by step through the unknown, I'll be on like a new line. In darkness, let love like the way to feed the soil of changing times. Step by step through the unknown, I'll be on like a new mind. In darkness, let love like the way to feed the soil of changing times. Follow the walk of the wild ones, into the woods and the darkness, rebirth the ways of the ancient ones, whose tracks were washed away in blood. It was to us now to open up and chase beyond what we pretend. Take us the feet, inspire cleansing, change to light the path. Step by step through the unknown, I'll be online and you'll be mine. In darkness, let love light the way to feed the soil of changing times. Step by step through the unknown, I'll be online and you'll be mine. In darkness, let love light the way to feed the soil of changing times.