Institutional Policies, Student Realities

In this episode of Transfer Tea, we explore the tension between student responsibility and institutional responsibility when it comes to navigating policies and processes. Inspired by a institutional policy  workshop from Student Ready Strategies, we discuss reactions, lessons learned, and how institutions can rethink policy design to be more student-ready. Tune in as we unpack practical takeaways and challenge ourselves to reflect on who we expect to adapt—students or our systems.

Host:
Loida González Utley
Director, Recruitment and Enrollment Services
Texas A&M University–Central Texas

Guests:
Cassandra Heath
University Registrar
Biola Uiversity

Diana Fyar
Associate Registrar of Transfer and Degree Audit
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
 

Links:

Student Ready Strategies: https://www.studentready.org/

AACRAO: www.aacrao.org

Email us at transfertea@aacrao.org!

Transcript

0:13

Welcome back to Transfer Tea, where we sip, spill, and serve up real conversations about transfer student success. I am your host, Loida, and in today's episode, we're tackling an important question. Who holds the responsibility for ensuring students are informed about the policies and processes that affect their journey? Is it the students themselves, or do our institutions need to take a stronger role in creating a student-ready culture? We'll dive into some powerful insights sparked by a workshop from student-ready strategies on institutional policy, and we will explore what it really means to design policies that are student-centered, clear and accessible. So grab your tea, coffee, or whatever keeps you fueled, and let's talk about creating student-ready strategies. Hi, my name is Cassandra Heath. I am the university registrar at Viola University in La Mirrada, California. I've been in higher ed for about 17 years now. I started in the admissions area, um, working with transfer admissions students, transfer incoming students, and then moved to the registrar's office about 10.5 years ago. And fun fact, Cassandra and I just met like, I don't know,-- 48-- hours, 48 hours ago. We were in this really cool session that we just wanted to talk about because it really left an impression on me. I don't know if it did for you, but we want students, but are we ready for students? Are we truly student ready for them? And I think that Um, those are questions like we should be asking ourselves that we don't ask ourselves enough, right? And I don't know, maybe, maybe you think it's like the fast paced environment that we live in. I don't know. I think it's a fast paced environment we live in as well as we have so many, especially in the registrar's office, we have so many federal things that we're complying with. Sometimes I think it's easy to ignore what students need and how do we serve students well. Yeah. And like and enrollment management too, like we're trying to make numbers. We're trying to get applications and yield and stuff, and we don't truly always stop to ask these questions, but I think it was an eye opening experience, this workshop we went to, which kudos to ACR for offering this workshop for us on being student ready and then the policies behind, you know, being student ready. So I'm curious to know. Like your afterthoughts of this, of this session. Yeah, so, as I've reflected, you know, one of my, one of the things in my heart as a registrar, as well as a former admissions person is that we want to take care of students. There are federal regulations we have to comply with. There are rules of policies at each university that we have to comply with, and there's reasons for that. But more often than not, I don't think we stop and think about. What do those policies, how do they impact students? How do they impact, especially first generation students? I was a first gen student myself, and I had no idea about this college structure. So coming into all of these policies, you can take this course when you need to take this many courses to receive financial aid. It's confusing. And then when policies aren't written well, or written with jargon that students may or may not be aware of. It, it can confuse students and cause them to become anxious, um, and so I think for me it was an important moment to stop, um, to stop and start looking at how we develop policy, um, and how we implement policy to make sure that we're taking care of the students who choose to come to our institutions. For, for the listeners that were not in that session, we were in this really cool policy, I don't know, policy making, policy revisiting session. And it was truly eye opening because they gave examples of real life policies that exist even at our own institutions right now, um, but we were challenged to look at it from different perspectives and I think that that was the most eye opening part, right? We got to be students in that way, so we felt as we were reading through the policies how the policy was aimed at benefiting the institution and their goals which were fiscal, right, financially driven. Um, goals, but very disconnected from the reality of students, right? And I'm trying to remember what policy it was. It was a bizarre one. Yes, yeah. So it was about, you know, paying before you enroll, right? And then it dropped. And then being dropped. And, you know, a lot of schools have that policy. We have a policy that's not quite as harsh as that one was. But I was starting to think about it. When we put ourselves in the roles of students, I was thinking about the students that end up sitting in my office when they're dropped. And, you know, usually they're dropped for, for a multitude of reasons. And, You know, payment is one of those, and I think it was, it was eye opening to me, the feelings, because I don't know that I've ever put myself in the, the emotions that the students have. Yeah, and transactionally, we are an operation, right? So transactionally it makes sense, like pay or get dropped. But then we dove a little bit deeper at how the student must feel, and I know you worked in transfer, so in our session prior to our session, we had this whole transfer. Conversation right with Diana who will also be joining later um but um you know transfer students they have so many barriers and obstacles that you just give them one little challenge and they will not come back like they will use that as an excuse to say, you know what I'm gonna give up on this whole system like I don't understand it it's overwhelming. I'm not gonna come and so and so we know that because we practice in the world of transfer but. I, I think this was like an opportunity to say, OK, I know that, but what am I doing to help my institution understand that these policies that we have or are implemented um are not student-centered. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's interesting to transfer students because they're coming from one college that has one set of how you do things, and I think so many times we take, we take for granted the fact that, oh, they already know the system, they've been in college before, they'll easily adapt. Into our system and our policies, that's not always the case. Sometimes they're used to what they knew and it's so drastically different. Um, sometimes it's, it's different enough and they're stressed about the transition. They have anxiety about stepping into a new institution. And I think we as policy creators and policy, those who revise policy, I think we need to think about that when we set policy. How do we set these policies so to give students grace in times that they need grace as they're transitioning, but Also, what is, what does it look like to be student centric and really care for these students as they step into this new world? Because, yes, once they get into the rhythm, they will probably be fine. But I don't think we take enough time to think about it. We just assume. This is, that won't be better for them. They've done this before. They've enrolled before at another institution. It's all the same, but it's truly not all the same. And we all do it differently. So while your institution might not drop students until, I don't know, 2 weeks before census day, my, my, my institution might drop them 2 weeks before the first day of class, right? And so then there's a timeliness to it because I think um one of our The perspectives that we shared was, um, when students get dropped, will professors still accept them or will they be behind and will they be comfortable coming into a class late? And then, of course, will they be successful? That's the other question. Yeah, well, I think about schools too is as budgets have tightened, um, less, less course offerings are coming about, um. You know, and so we're thinking, so waitlists, like at our institution, waitlists are much higher than they've ever been. And so, I think about these students who may register for a class on time, coming into the system for the first time, and then they get dropped, and then they have to go into the waitlist. They're not sure. They can get their class. They're probably on a tight timeline because as we know, transfers want to graduate as quickly as possible because they've probably already spent a little bit more time than they originally thought, um, to get to that 4 year degree completion. And so entering the system and your first exposure with your faculty member is talking to them about getting into the-- class when the waitlist-- is full freaking wild. Yeah, it's so wild. And I think that that particular policy. You know what, I've read that policy before. I know that I've worked somewhere where that policy exists because it felt way too common, like for me, um, but as I was reading it from the student perspective, and I know we shared this at our table was, um. You tell the student you're gonna be dropped for nonpayment. You're gonna drop at this time, right? You need to ensure that your bill is, um, is looked at if you have questions, right? You need, there's a financial statement that they had to fill out and everything was like it's your responsibility to do it. And nowhere, not once in that policy did they say it's our job to. Inform you or you know what, we live in the, the technology, right? There are no QR codes or links. Let's say your financial statement is here, your FAFSA is here, your contact is here, and I think that those are the small changes that while you can't, it's very very situational, right? So why you can't disclose everybody's individualized financial stuff or. Situation and a policy. Could we be more proactive at handing them the information? Yeah. And that's one of the things I was thinking in like looking at our own institution, because this has been a topic of conversation. I had a meeting with our faculty right before I left about this very thing of, OK, is this in the students' best interest? Is this in faculty's best interests? And we talked about all those various stakeholders as we kind of examine the policy. And that's been something I've been thinking about a lot is what are we doing to inform them and how do we display that in the policy? How do we display what the school's responsibility is, um, because again, they're entering into the system. If they don't know where to find their bill, they probably don't. They probably have not interacted with your systems unless you happen to go from a school that's on the same type of system. Um, which we know is not always the most common. Um, it just is important, I think that we look at policy as a way to inform too. We give students, the guys we all know as registrars and those who work in admissions, students are not going to read the catalog all the time. And I mean, do we even read the catalog? I mean, the faculty read the catalog? I don't know.-- I was gonna say-- I want to meet somebody that has read the catalog, right? If you are listening to this and you have read your entire catalog, please send me an email. I will give you a personal life. Shout out on this podcast, right? You know, and I think about, I mean, as registrar, I have read the catalog, um, but we just went through a reorganization of our catalog to, to pull out policies and actually have like policy links because one of the things I was, I was finding students couldn't find our policies and so we would talk about something soon, and I shared this, um, I shared this when we met, um, but one of my jobs is to oversee appeals. And so when students are not happy with the policy, guess who they talk to and guess who they appeal to? That would be me at my institution. And what I was finding is that students couldn't find our policies. So not even it was they weren't aware, it's just they couldn't find them in the mess of our catalog. And so we, we wanted to make it more student-centric, so we created kind of this like custom links to it. And I think that we as an institution need to think, we as higher ed institutions need to think about this a little bit more of how do we make sure students are aware of our policies and, and what our responsibility is in this. Yeah, and you brought up. Good point. Um, there was, um, we also had a discussion about, uh, making professional determinations, right, and how there's no guidance. So I had never thought about this before, but now I wonder how many inconsistencies there are when we leave that opportunity so open to interpretation, um, and how many people are we discriminating against or being inequitable to. Um, because we don't have a set rubric that says you're gonna appeal, and you know more about this more than I do, but you're gonna appeal, and this is what we're looking for, and this is how we're going to come up with a determination. I've never seen a rubric like that, so now I'm wondering, like, whenever, you know, and I've had to appeal in my life before. I had to appeal my financial aid at one point in my undergrad career, and I was 1st gen, didn't know what it was, what it means like. I don't even know how I did it or what it was for, but I, it never crossed my mind like how did they make up. You know, with this determination. Yeah, that's a question I, I often ask myself as I'm making these decisions. How do I make ensure equitability across the board, that every situation is nuanced, and so you cannot always make the same decision for every situation because as we know, students are not numbers on a page. They're real life people that are experiencing this. And so you want to review every situation like that. However, I keep careful documentation of how I make every decision to ensure that way I can look back when I'm making a similar decision to it. What did I look at? Why did I make this decision? Is there something else that's nuanced so that my, my decisions stay consistent and that way students can expect consistency. of, OK, we know, you know, not one of those situations where, oh, my friend got this approved, so I got this approved, and it was like, oh, you caught whoever was making the appeal decision on-- the right day or the wrong day because-- can-- you-- imagine dependent on emotion. Oh my goodness, it would be, it's, it's exhausting and I think the common misconception when it comes to appeals sometimes is that, you know, we, we don't want the best for students, whereas I would say that's the opposite. That's the opposite of why I do my role. I want the best for students. I want, I want things to, to work in their favor. And when I say no, it has more to do with, I need to uphold the standards of the institution, so your degree means something, um, but trying to communicate. That in those moments that you're disappointed is, is the hardest, and I think that's where for me this workshop was so it, it confirmed something I had already felt that we really need to look at our policies, not only at my institution, but across higher ed to make sure that we are creating policies that one, do align with federal regulations because we all want to stay open and receive federal financial aid. We all want to be employed, yes, but 2. That serve students and are clear and that are kind. I would go, you know, I'm going to quote Brene Brown, she's one of my favorites, um, but she says often clear is kind. And I think sometimes we have nuanced our policies so much that they're not clear, and therefore not kind. Well, then we can't portray to be professionals that are for accessibility, right, and equitability in the front end, the recruitment admissions register part, and then look into the policy and in the back end, be so constrained and not student centered. Like that's so contradictory, right? And I don't even know if like, We take the time to just think this out. Another thing we mentioned too is that policies involve other departments and divisions. So maybe it's our responsibility or it needs to be our responsibility to be advocates for the students, stronger advocates for students, and ensure that that everything that we can have a say so in is student centered. Yeah, and I'd be curious, you know, how other institutions create policy. I know one of The things that I brought about at my institution, um, started before I got there, but then we've really kind of tried to grow is other voices in the policy process. So we have a policy advisory group. I have a student on that, um, because I'm like, one of the things that's important to me is I want to make sure students have a voice in it. And more often than not, there's not a lot for the students there. They're like, OK, I get that. But I always ask, I always make sure like in those meetings to bring the student voice forward. Because I'm like, I wanna, I want to understand how students are gonna see this, and I think more institutions, this is the first institution I've ever been at that we've done something like that, and it, it's something that I'm, I'm thankful for, and I hope, you know, if I, I'm not planning to leave my institution, but, you know, I hope more institutions do that and look at across campus, how does this policy effect, get stakeholders in the room to talk about this because as we saw in that session, You know, we all role played as different, you know, faculty, the bursar's office, you know, administration, adult learners, adult learners, a whole other population. So I think it's, it's important to look at how does policy impact every stakeholder because for the bursar's office, that policy was important. They need, they have a bottom. Line and a goal they need to meet and that and you don't want to take that importance out of it, right? But you also want to make sure that you're honoring students in the middle of that. Absolutely. That is so wonderful. I am so thankful that I met you because we had some really good conversation and I'm so glad that you came on transfer team. Thank you for stopping by. Thank you. So I met another friend at this SRS policy um pre-conference meeting, and her name is Diana, and she is here um to also have a follow-up conversation on that. So Diana, yeah, thanks. So I'm Diana Fryer. Um, I'm the associate registrar of degree of transfer and degree audit at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Um, so I've been in higher education for 12 years, just about, and, um, yeah, I've been in the registrar's office the whole time, but just really been over, um, worked my way up and really been passionate about transfer students and um how to get them a clear path to degree completion. And I feel like transfer people just gravitate towards each other. Like you can detain when I was like, transfer, or you said transfer, and I was like, Oh, I know. And then I was like, yes, tell me everything, you know,-- it's freeing the-- corn. Yes, that is so much fun, um, and so talking about, um, I think, I think we mentioned this too, like transfers in marginalized population of students, and so, um, that is in our nature to do, to advocate, right. And to do those things and to find um student-centered solutions for the populations that we serve, but I think this session dug a little bit deeper um and it was moments of self-reflection and um really ana an analysis of everything that we must align. Yeah, I think one thing that really stood out to me too is like as we got to talking about what was a student ready. Policy and student forward policy and how that applies to transfer students is that a lot of transfer students are first gen, are um minority students, and are, um, you know, doing things for themselves are lower um lower income, low lower socioeconomical students and so they don't have the same opportunities that. Um, quote unquote traditional students are gonna have. So if we've written policies focused towards traditional students, what on earth are we expecting? And they're not good policies to start with, right? How on earth are we expecting these not good policies to work for transfer students? Yeah, and I think that that was an eye-opening experience, right, looking at those policies, which, by the way, um, when Hello. When we were in um the. When we were in these sessions and we were reading through some of those policies, and were very familiar and I was like, OK, these are student-centered policies, but wait, no, they're not, uh, and understanding like the different perspectives, I think, um, was really important and, um, critical. Was it surprising to you? Oh yeah, definitely like when they talked about like it should start with a purpose. I can't tell you when I've read a A policy that had the purpose in it for a student, and I went and read several policies at my institution after that and was like, none of them tell me what the purpose is. If I was a student, I wouldn't know why the heck I was being forced to do this. Like that was mind blowing to me that like, oh yeah, we should tell students why we do the things we do, like basics. We shouldn't just expect them to understand how higher education works and why we're doing the things we do. And it also doesn't mean we have to tell them everything, right? They don't need to know the jargon of higher education or how. Higher education is funded and why would they need to pay their bill, but I think it doesn't have to be that complex. It can just be as simple as, let me show you how to understand your bill and what resources are available so that you can get that handled so that you don't have to be dropped. This is to help you keep your classes and progress towards graduation. Yeah, it's not, it doesn't have to be overly. Overly complicated, which we tend to make it also, yeah, and uh in your particular space where you work, um, do you oversee any policies of the creation of policies, um, not oversee I assist in them, um, particularly around anything with academic history so I oversee and help with the, um, like we just redid our repeat policy, um, and then, um, academic continuation and standards we've been working on that one. Um, anything of anything kind of around that, um, transfer like what transfers,-- international-- transfer credit, yeah, international transfers, um, stuff like that has been, um, really that's really within my space, and we are, um, I, we've worked on those policies a lot, but even going back and through and looking at them, even though we just redid them, I still wouldn't say that they're student ready. Yeah, and, and so it gets tricky because you have, you wanna be fair and equitable, but the populations differ, so you, you touched international, so I have to mention international now because that's the other, the other love, my other love is international, um. We can be intentional and we can be student centered and still ensure that things get done and that we follow policy and that we follow legislation or whatever um is done, but um it gets really challenging when you deal with the subpopulations of transfer so I'm interested to know if there are any policies that you are particularly interested in maybe modifying in the international transfer space. Oh yeah, good question. Um, so one of our policies that we have been working on is The type of documentation that we have to have for students and what's what's written down and what's there um it's been kind of a long standing. Assumption that we had to have the original transcript on top of the third party evaluation from a student to be able to give them credit, and the third party evaluation has to have the original transcript exactly, yes, yes, so why are we going to make them jump through hoops to get that second transcript um when they already validated that they had that. Um, so I think documenting that and explaining why we don't need that as an institution is a policy that I really won't reform. That's really, that's really good. And, and you know, I think sometimes we're also under the assumption that students request transcript the same way we do in America and that we get it instantly. It's so-- far-- cost $10 and exactly costs hundreds, yeah, there's institutions, um, so I, I used to work a lot with. Um, Indian students, so there's institutions in India that only have one graduation per year and so they only confer one time. So if you don't confer what that one year, um, you're gonna have to wait a whole year to convert and there are some regulations about them being the ones to pick up the transcripts. So if there are students that are already here or they can't return to their country for X Y Z reason. Um, they can't just have mom and dad go pick them up. They have to go show up and, and pick up transcripts. And so that creates a burden on the student, which is what we were talking about, yeah,-- with-- policies, yeah. And then they just feel like, well, this is, I'm already paying so much to be here, to come to your country to participate in your program. They've chosen our program over all other international programs. Like, why are we gonna add one more small, very. Small barrier when you think about it, um, to hinder them to get access to their credit. It almost feels like, and so this is where we, where we toggle back and forth and we could do better. Come to us, but here are some barriers, you know. So let me make you feel welcome, you know, come, we'll recruit you, we'll admit you, but when you're here, these are a list of things that you're gonna have to get to.-- On your own sometimes because we're not-- we don't-- have-- the resources to-- help you with-- that or maybe we're not good at articulating them, um, and so like letting them fend for themselves and then you know and then we get upset when our attention rates drop or you know our graduation rates are low and and then fail to look at all of those things gosh I could talk about international forever um but um. Yeah, that is, that is really interesting that you oversee that too because it's a merge of both, right? It really is. I mean they go hand in hand, that's right, the policies, I think if you're and especially if you're looking at being equitable, like you have to give space to treating your international students in the same vein because these students are. Um, accredited, they're taking accredited courses at accredited institutions. They're just accredited from a different body, but we have to treat them with the same equitability that we would other institutions in the United States. Um, another another thing that Cassandra and I talked about, um, earlier was, um, that we always leave some room for for professional decision making, right? And how until this very session I was very pro. Yes, there are some professional decisions that are very situational that that the institution should be empowered to conduct, um, but I feel differently now after this session, uh, because it does leave the room open for inequality, um, and. Definitely, I don't know a gray area where the student might not know what they need to fulfill, right, to get to whatever appeals completed. That's such a good point. Um, I talked with Cassandra a lot about how we have a faculty committee that reviews appeals, um, as particularly they review other types of petitions too, but, um, appeals as well. Students don't know what the qualifications are that they need. Do you know? I do because I'm an ad hoc on that committee so I know what they're looking for, but the committee also changes every year so that's what they're looking for changes every year, um. So how is that fair? And if we're not telling them you need to provide X, Y, Z, if, if one student, to be fair, the committee is very good about being when they set their standard, they adhere to it, but no one's telling the student what the standard is, so they could write a really long essay but not provide the documentation. Well, that's not gonna get them anywhere, right? So, but no one told them that, um, and so how is that student ready? We just we'll, we'll put it towards the committee and then if you don't like the decision then you can appeal to the chancellor, which takes another 5 to 7 days um so it's just how, how on earth do we be more upfront with students to let them know. Here are the expectations of you going into that committee, even if there is going to be a committee that's bad, that's fair, that's valid, um. But they should know what's expected of them going into that before. So yeah, and even then beyond that, if it's going to one person or you know it's gonna be left to professional decision. OK, what's their standard for review? Like there has to be some, there has to be some standard. There has to be some bar, right? And you know you feel that day. No, no, and that's, and I hadn't thought of that till then, um. I, I also feel like, like those standards might change with trends and student types, um, and they'll fluctuate based on the committee, but they should not be. New every time they review, right, there should be some commonality. Yes, is it OK to admit more people then, right? There should be some commonalities, and, and I guess that's one of the things, like one of the takeaways was we need to be better at communicating those things to our student, um, and when they read our policies or look over, um. Um, look over our policies, um, that should be an opportunity, um, for us to modify, you know, those things. Um, Take away from that. From the session as a whole, oh man. I think I took away that. Policies are not removed from students, um, and I think that we have done a really good job of saying we are, we are student thinking, we are student forward, but policies live in their own world of how do we use policies to meet regulations, to meet accreditation standards, to meet institutional standards, um, but not thinking about how they. Impact the day to day life of the student, um, and instead we should put the student first forward in the policy decision before even the role of regulation we're trying to write for, um, and I don't think that we've done a good job and shoot I mean my master's degree was in higher education administration. Did two classes on policies and understanding them and we never even talked about how they impacted the student. Oh wow, I mean that's just it was all about how they relate to the rules and the regulations and the, yeah, the trends, the changes like, but, but we don't talk about how they're. Ever impacting the daily, the, the John Smith on your campus, yeah, the perceptions, yeah, what about you? No, I, I feel the same way. I, I left wanting to understand how I could be a better advocate, um, because, you know, and where I, I oversee a team, I'm director level, so I oversee a team, and I have some input, you know, and leadership, um, within my division, but I don't have full. Um, I don't have a voice at every table where policy is discussed beyond my own division, and so it just makes me wonder, like, of course, opportunity for collaboration, right, on in every way, but like how do you earn a seat at that table and kind of shed some light as policies? I, I will never look at policies the same way after the session, um, that's for sure. Like how do we. I feel like that's deeper. It's a culture change, right? It's getting people, people to buy into the idea that or to the reminder that we are a student-centered institution, um, and I think I just left yearning to make a greater change because that's what we're here for, right? That's what we invest in ourselves in professional development and knowledge, and that's what ACR is for. Um, but more than that, like, how do I take this back and present it and practice it, you know, and, and, um, disseminate it to other people so that way we can collectively align. Like, I can align my own policies, and I'm, I'm, my colleagues and About management, I mean, they're wonderful. We could align our policies all day. I know that, um, but how do we get-- buy-in and action beyond our own divisions-- and how do we like when we're interacting with students, right, when our staff are interacting with students, when we're interacting with our staff, how do we teach them to. OK, and when you're trying to interpret this policy, how do you see it as a student? How can you help a student better understand that? How can you help make a change in that? Like, I think that's, that's a goal too, right? Because if we're ultimately. Wanting to change higher ed, it starts with how we train our staff and how we interact with them. So that's a great point because I mean we're only as good as the people we're bringing up behind us, yeah, and, and it's in those daily interactions. I mean, you're right, it's petitions, it's in, um, appeals for admission, um, it's in, in Texas we have conduct disclosure, right? They have to disclose if they've ever, um, committed a felony and stuff like that, um, and those are all different processes that are greatly. Implemented because of legislation or some sort of some sort of law um and so both ways right how do you inform and train your staff and then how do you inform and advocate um beyond yep at those tables so I think it's really interesting. I enjoyed it and I enjoyed our conversations in between and having you on the team sharing student being the student-- playing the student-- that was a lot of fun, um, and so I. I don't know. I look forward to maybe we we need a follow up episode and just, I know, I would love that, yeah, and just, you know, make sure we get back in the real world, yeah, like what are we doing six months from now?-- Like-- how do we change a policy and when we talk about policy change, it doesn't mean we're changing the entire policy. Are we making a verbiage, a verbiage, honestly, that's what I did. I like went back and I was like, we need to put some definitions in here. Like we need to. Yeah, like, we, I mean, I started working on the academic suspension dismissal policy, and I was like we didn't even put the definition of probation. We just said when students go on probation, what do you mean?-- What does it mean-- exactly? Yeah, and, and what are the concepts and what does it affect? Yeah, so yeah, probation. OK, cool, but it, it affects you financially. It affects your GPA, you know, and all these other things, so. I don't know. Maybe we did follow-up episode and kind of talk about some of the policies that maybe we helped influence and change and see where that goes. But, um, I am definitely not the same person after this policy workshop. Worth it. Absolutely worth it.-- It-- was really cool to meet you and Cassandra at the same time and then have those. We had a great table, meaningful conversations and discussions. Yeah, thank you for having me. It was awesome. Thank you for coming to Transportation anytime. Thank you for joining us for today's conversations on student ready strategies and institutional policies. Remember, transfer success doesn't happen by chance, it happens by design. If you enjoyed this discussion, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next cup of transfer tea. And we'd love to hear your thoughts. Email us at transferte@Aacro.org. Until next time, and that's the tea.