Why Advocate Anyway?

In this episode, we’re joined by a fellow higher education professional who walked the halls of Capitol Hill alongside us during Hill Day. Together, we reflect on why advocacy matters—even when the outcomes aren’t immediate, the process is complex, and our calendars are already full. What keeps us showing up, asking questions, and telling our students’ stories? Let’s unpack it.

Host:

Loida González Utley

Director, Recruitment and Enrollment Services

Texas A&M University–Central Texas

Guest:

Justin Schilke

Deputy Registrar

Rice University

Links:

AACRAO Advocacy: https://www.aacrao.org/advocacy

AACRAO Hill Day: https://www.aacrao.org/events-training/meetings/aacrao-leadership/leadership-group/hill-day

Transcript

0:10

Welcome back to Transfer T. I am your host, Loida Gonzalez Utley. This is a podcast where we serve up real conversations about higher education, policy, and the people behind the work. Today we're diving into a question many of us wrestle with. Why advocate anyway? Even when the process feels complicated, the timelines are long and our calendars are overflowing, we still show up. But why? Because our students' stories deserve to be heard. In this episode, we'll reflect on what it was like walking the halls of Capitol Hill during Hill Day, what we learned and why advocacy belongs to all of us. So grab your tea, coffee, or whatever keeps you fueled, and let's talk about why advocacy matters. So, there is this thing called advocacy and we hear it a lot, we see it a lot on LinkedIn, um, people that we know use it, but like, why advocate anyway? To help me unpack some of this is somebody who I just met a few months ago. We actually had the opportunity to participate in Hill Day together. I was not solo this year. Uh, and it was a great opportunity to get to know him better. So, I will give him a few minutes to introduce himself and talk about what he does, why he decided to, uh, participate in Hill Day, and we will go from there. OK, yeah, so I, I'm Justin Schulke from Rice University in Houston, Texas. I'm the deputy registrar. I've been at Rice for 11 years. Previously I was at Texas A&M and then Western Kentucky University before that, um, and I saw an opportunity for Hill Day and I applied for it and I got an email saying, hey, you're selected and signed up to come. I, I will say I was sweating a little bit though because you almost didn't make it. Um, and I was very nervous that you weren't gonna come because I was already nervous and then-- you weren't there on that-- remember that I was stuck in Chicago. Delays. But just so you know, before I met you, Justin, before I even knew who you were, I was like, I know that I have to make it to DC because I've been solo at Hill Day and it's, it's fun, but it's not as fun as having somebody experience Hill Day with you. So I was committed to getting there one way or another, and I think I ended up changing my flight three times, uh, flew into, uh, Baltimore and then took a train, and then ta da, made it to Hill Day finally. Yeah, we were doing the prep sessions and you still weren't there and I looked over and then all of a sudden you were magically just across the aisle, so it was,-- it was really-- really cool. Um, I was so excited to, to, to do Hill Day with somebody because I had been doing it previously, um, by myself for a, for a few times. Um, so I'm curious to know what was it like? Yeah, so I got in on Sunday afternoon and to kind of prepare myself, I actually took a walk. I went down to the Capitol, so I've been to DC before, but never actually walked around. And so I walked for probably about an hour, 1 hour and a half from the hotel, you know, you walk from the hotel down to the White House and the National Mall, and I walked up to the Capitol, walked around, got the lay of the land to see what we, where we'd be for on Tuesday, and then, yeah, so it. I was a little nervous just walking around being like, oh, this is where I'm going to be. I hope everything's going to be OK. I hope I know my stuff. And on Monday, ACR actually worked and prepared us for all that, and that was, that was comforting. So we talked to a journalist, came, talked about the major issues facing higher ed and one especially related to admissions and registrar officials or officers. We talked to some former legisative former legislative staffers and some lobbyists came in and talked to us. And I went through ACR's core issues and went over what, what we could um propose and, and talk about well, um, and then went through some mock meetings which um was interesting, um, and so as, as they're going through the mock meetings, and they're getting more and more nervous like the other first-timers there, thinking this is what it's gonna be like, um, and so they're like, don't worry, you're professionals, you know, everything's gonna be OK when you go in. Um, and then You know, you leave there and you're like, OK, maybe I can do this. And then after dinner, it sets in, you have to go to sleep and then wake up the next day and you're gonna be on the hill talking to folks. Um, so that night I actually took all the actor's talking points, dropped them into Notebook LM to create a podcast, so I can listen to the podcast about 50 times that night. And then also in the morning when I woke up, um, listen to that as I walked back down, I took a walk to the National Mall again, um, and listened to it about 50 times then. Um, but yeah, so on Tuesday then we, I met, met you in the lobby of the hotel and we took a cramped Uber ride to one of the Senate office buildings, um, waited in line, got through security, and then, then the reality really hits sitting in front of Senator Cornyn's office that we were actually going to meet folks, um, and there was also the aspect of there's a lot of other people here who are doing the same thing. And it kind of goes back to your question of like why advocate anyway. There's all these people, they're meeting all these people and you, you're just 15 minutes on their calendar. So, um, I'm going through all this is going through my mind while we're sitting in Senator Cornyn's office, and while we're doing that, um, you just stand up, walk over to the the, the, the front desk staffer, and use what you called, I think, strategic communication to get, yeah, um, and managed to get us, uh, gallery passes and then also an intern to take us on the subway underneath, um, to the, the Capitol Hill. Um, the, the Capitol Building. And as I'm watching this happen, I'm also watching the guy sitting on the couch on the other side of the room who's also waiting to talk to someone, and his jaw just drops because he's watching this admissions recruiter expert just smooth talk the front desk and she just handed out everything. Um, and so yeah, so that's, that was the initial kind of lead up and then we met with um our, our first staffer. And yeah, you took the lead on that one, and it was just, it was, it was nice watching that kind of go down, um, and so we met with 5, 5 officers, yeah, so we met with 5 throughout the day, um, and it, they all went really well. They after the first one, my nerves calmed down quite a bit because what ACR was telling us really was true that we were the professionals who knew about. The topics. And if you can talk to your peers about this, you can talk to the person sitting across the table because they're not an expert, um, but you're trying to, um, bring them up to speed on what's, what's going on. Um, so yeah, after, after all our meetings, we ended up going down to back, back to the hotel to meet with ACR, um, staff and debrief them. And then I left. I don't know if you stayed a little bit longer, but, but I had to catch a flight back. Um, so yeah, that was,-- that was the quick rundown of the I-- was afraid you were gonna say that story, but that my favorite part is the underground tunnels, and I think it's always like a challenge when people say like, Uh, Nobody can get down there. You have to really talk to somebody and talk them into getting you down there. And I was, you know, I consider that a challenge. I was like, OK, I'm going to take my friend Justin, my new friend Justin, who has never been to the tunnels. We're just gonna go, we're going to go down there. And we did. It was so much fun. Um, also, and kudos to Faith, Mike, and Hill for always being so strategic about, um, the prep day. That's really the most important part because no matter how many times you've done Hill Day, like, legislation changes, the, uh, political atmosphere changes. You really don't, um, and, and I hope you do it again, Justin, but you'll, you'll realize that no matter how many times that you go. In there and do it. Like you don't know what environment you're going to step into. And so being prepared and um being pumped up and energized and going through all of those um mock meetings, they're always so important. So kudos to the team for doing a really good job at prepping us um for these meetings and then scheduling and all of the logistics in between. So we're so thankful for that. Um, Justin, you know, one of the things that I, that I appreciated the most was that you come from a private institution. And I didn't, it didn't quite register, um, how, how important and how diverse. Our conversations were going to be, how rich even, because I come from a public, uh, university system and you come from a private institution. And until you went into the meetings to speak on that, um, it, it just hadn't registered how impactful that scenario and our shared experiences were. So I want to, like, I really wanna talk about that, like, How, how do they differ? Our advocacy needs, we talked about a lot of, of topics. We talked about reverse transfer, we talked about Pell Grant. How do, how are they differ? And, and we talked, and, and we shared some of this, but I want you to share with our listeners, like, how are they the same? How are they differ? Yeah, so, um, another aspect related to this is you're on the admissions side, I'm on the registrar side, and so we, we had the full gamut of private, public registrar admissions, and I think it worked really well. So ACR's genius of putting us together, I think, kudos to them. Yeah, so we, we covered Pell Grant funding, budget cuts to the Department of Ed and their workforce and how it affects, affects us as institutions. The impact on international students, just the value of higher education institutions to the local economies and the support for the reverse transfer. Um, it's when you start thinking about how those affect, you know, public and private institutions, um, you can pull out individual items, but just like in general, I think private institutions have certain challenges. Um, one might be something like protecting institutional autonomy. Um, so we don't always have the same oversight requirements that public schools do, um, and we, um, kind of champion that and we, we enjoy that, that creates its own challenges, its own political kind of internal challenges sometimes. Um, Another, another item is federal financial aid is important to, to privates. and so while we're not dependent on state appropriations. Private institutions can heavily rely on federal student aid, whether it be Pell grants or loans. Um, and then, uh, 11 thing that affects Rice and some of the other, um, private schools, especially is managing endowment and tax status. And so with the change in the endowment tax that that has affected like a number of our peers and it has affected us as well. I think when you, when you switch to the public side, you think about things like securing state funding, so it might not be a federal issue, but it's definitely like a state issue. And when you have also performance-based funding on schools, things like reverse transfer come into play because Um, then, then the community colleges can start if we reverse transfer credit back to the community colleges start getting more credentials awarded, right? So that might increase their funding. Um, you also have the issue of navigating political ideologies. So when we think about, um, you know, uh, who, who's running the, the state government at the time might also then affect the policies you will have to deal with, um, on a day to day basis or long-term strategy wise. Um, and just tuition affordability and accessibility, you know, so one of the main public school kind of aims is to be accessible and affordable to the citizens of that area, um, and so. Ensuring we have things like Pell grants or subsidized or unsubsidized loans available to those individuals. And then another thing that public schools have to deal with that I'm kind of glad privates don't have as much to deal with is the the open records laws and you know like those types of things. So you have a different set of accountability and transparency that you have to provide to the public, but I think, you know, we definitely overlap is trying to Make college more accessible to those who want to come and helping them succeed while they're there, and there are certain policies that that can enable that and there are certain policies that will hinder that, whether that be direct items or indirect items in which Uh, it affects Our work. So we think about increased reporting requirements, whether either at the public or the private institutions, that then takes away from resources we can provide for student success initiatives, right? Um, and so, Just think about those items, um, it's important with advocacy.-- Some-- of like I had never heard of before, Justin, or I had never, like I didn't have an understanding. So you talked about endowment tax and that that was when you would speak about it and you spoke about it so passionately, I like I like a light bulb went off in my head because, of course, I've never worked at a private institution, so I only know the limitations of how Um, the legislation affects a private university, right, a state university, um, and so you started talking about those things, um, the way financial, the impact of financial aid, I think there are a lot of misconceptions that, um, private institutions have enough money to, you know, cover everybody and like nobody needs, um, the Pell Grants, for example, um, but you've made it a point to bring that up as well, um, and then. I think, for me, the most memorable, uh, conversations were in reverse transfer. Uh, and I, that just comes, that just comes from my, my heart is for transfers, and you, you probably picked that up, you probably know that everybody on this, that listens to this podcast probably knows that already. But, you know, the importance of reverse transfer, especially now in Texas with the House Bill 8, launching last January. It's important to support our community colleges, right? And, and we all are working towards the same, you know, we're rowing in the same direction. I say we all want, like you mentioned, accessible education we want people to be successful and a lot of our students in Texas start at community colleges and so there is, um, a really important, um, aspect of reverse transfer for the student for the benefit of the student, but also for the benefit of the community colleges. Um, what conversation like stood out for you the most or what experience? So I already mentioned the um. The situation in Corn's office where you smooth talked to everyone, so I'll skip that, but that,-- that-- strategic communication, strategic communication, yes, um, that, that stood out like number one. second, uh, I think we had the moment when, uh, when we were in, um, Representative PR's office, um, when he came in, and that was really neat because we weren't, I don't, I wasn't expecting that. I don't think the look on your face was you were not expecting him to walk in the door. And then we were both, when he started talking to us, there was both a pause, like, how do we respond at the time. So for, for those of you who don't know, um, typically when you go in, you'll talk to a legislative staffer who then will present the issues to the representative or the senator and Um, you don't typically talk to the, the congressperson, um, and so he came in and we were able to briefly talk to him and he was like, what's the big ask? And you were right on it. You were like, this item, this item, this item, and then, then he kept on walking and then we talked a little more to the legislative staffer and you're like, do you think we can get a picture? Um, and he's like, yeah, let me see. And so he disappeared and he's like, can you wait 10 minutes? And Acro had set up our schedule in such a way we had a big gap. We had like 2 hours for our next one and so we're like, yeah, yeah, we can wait. So we waited and then we actually talked to him for about 5 minutes, I think, in, in, in his office and got a picture taken with him, so. It was that, that I won't forget that. Um, yeah, I think we were, uh, we were waiting. So I'm, I'm normally in the recruitment, I'm a recruitment person, I'm a recruiter. So normally I, I, I'm not speechless. Normally I, I, I'm ready and prepared to chat and speak and. Answer, but you're right, I, I'm recalling that experience now that we were sitting down and we were just not expecting for him to come in. By the way, there was an active House and the Senate was active at different times. And so I am always hopeful that we will run into people, but we didn't know if we were going to run into people at that particular time. And um they had just finished telling us that Doctor Cuer, by the way, is the most educated person in Congress. He has the most degrees or the highest level of degrees, and so we were just hanging out. I think the aide was telling us how passionate he feels about education, which I think we picked up because I was that he came in and he was like, what are your asks for education? And. Justin, I was so nervous. I don't even remember what I said. I know I said something good, but I don't remember what I said. Yeah, and it was only our 2nd meeting and so I was still kind of a little like trying to figure out how this works and then he walks in. I'm like, uh, and I looked to you and you're like, uh, and then you said, you said something and it sounded great. I was like, yes, yes, starstruck for like seconds. Like I felt like I was frozen, honestly, and then. Um, you know, strategic communication. I, I feel like we have to take pictures if we're there and, you know, we see a congressman or a congresswoman. I feel like the most appropriate thing is to get a photo and we did. That was really cool too. I had, I could have completely forgotten about that. I don't know why. Um. You know, a, a lot of people, um, we share, um, we share the post about advocacy and we talk about advocacy and, um, I think that the thing that gets me the most, um, when the applications open for Hill Day is that, um, we are all, especially people in education, we're all very vocal, like we're unafraid to speak, we're unafraid to share ideas, to really vocalize and speak for the students and Um, I think if you, if you don't apply, you're missing an opportunity to do that. Um, you know, and, and I think for me it's always, it always feels like it's my responsibility. Like, if I have a platform and if I've earned my My seat at this table, then I should use it, uh, for the benefit of the students that we serve, um, and the students who aspire to, um, succeed in life and, and, you know, may not know how to get there, how to pay, you know, uh, there's no pathway and so, um, I feel like super passionate about that. So I wanted to get, um, kind of your feedback too on that, um. What motivates you to, to advocate, to advocate, especially knowing that we were going into this with a very tense, in a very tense scenario, um, in Congress. I think that there was breaking news that they had passed, the Supreme Court had passed something while we were there, um, There was a lot of changes. I mean, they ended up changing the presentation, I think, like 1 or 2 days because it was still very fluid about the topics that we were gonna talk about um at Hill Day. And so I just wanted to kind of get your perspective, like what motivates you to advocate and to show up despite the complexities and the political environment that we were in. Yeah, so at one point in my younger years, I wanted to, I, I thought I wanted to go into politics, um, and as I got older, I was like, no, no, don't want to do that. Um, and so I think I've always been interested in politics in some way and how, how it works, and I think when we were sitting in the, the galleries, um, you had mentioned how, you know, that was one of your passions too, and just walking through the halls of where, you know, a lot of stuff. That you see on TV happens or, you know, bills are made and and passed, which is really interesting to actually see that in person. I think, I think for me, um, like one of the reasons I love my job, back to that, is that um I help people figure out how to get things done and I really, really enjoy that. Um, and when we think about advocacy, there's a lot of things in higher ed that are difficult for folks to figure out. We're professionals, so we understand how reverse transfer works, but Um, just as an example, but someone who is a first generation low-income student probably might, may not, and because it's actually kind of complicated, right? You, you need to know that this thing out there exists in order to say, hey, um, for your institution, send my transcript back to this other school and let me get my community college, um, associate's degree, you know, um. And so I, I think back to my time in college and I was also, um, you know, the first in my family to go to college. Um, I was a lower income student. I went to a private top 20 school, um, and it was hard to figure things out on my own. Um, I remember before I went when we were trying to figure out the financial aid aspect of it, like we, we, we hired someone to fill out the financial aid forms because we didn't really understand how they worked, um, and Can we, you know, advocate for easier ways to apply for financial aid, for example, right? Um, if, if that can help someone do that, then, then I'm all for that. Um, kind of going back to the reverse transfer route, you know, what if, you know, you go to, no one transfers normally to a 4-year, not expecting to finish. But life happens, whether it be a personal thing, um, what if you get deployed and when you come back, you just don't, you know, know about it, but you might need a degree to apply for a job and that allows that to happen rather seamlessly and, and so it's really about like how, how can I make people's lives better to help us do what we enjoy doing. And taking, if we can take administrative burdens off of folks, which I realize laws typically add administrative burden, but there are things that like lessen the administrative burden as well. Um, so reverse transfer, going to that, um, getting, um, the written consent portion to reverse transfer the stuff back, um, without having the written consent on the front end, um, that could help streamline that process. Um, when we talk about. Uh, Pell grants, increasing the Pell, um, you know, that's, that's maybe one less loan a student has to apply for and then figure out on the back end how to pay for. Um, and then they could focus on their career or, you know, activities at school rather than having to work for it, um, to pay the tuition, and that will hopefully help them get a job or enjoy life. What would you say to like professionals that might say, well, no, Justin, this is not my lane, like this is not, I don't do politics. I just, I'm, I, I want nothing to do with it. Yeah, I would ask them kind of why they don't think it's their lane, um, and talk about their concerns. So, Um, Well, you know, then maybe after that talk about all the state and federal regulations that make their jobs more difficult, um, because if I, you can make your job more easier, like why wouldn't you try to do that, um, and I'd also ask why, why are you working in higher ed if you don't want the success of our students, um, and so. Um, I think everyone can find something they care about, um, even if it's very small, and it doesn't have to be at the federal level. It can be at your state level or even at the, in your local government, um, in your city or your county. There is something that affects us in in some way, shape or form, um, and surely you can find something that you're passionate about in those areas. And how do you, how does advocacy in from your perspective tie to student success and equity? Yeah, so I, I think advocacy is a critical driver of students' success and equity, um, especially in higher ed, because it directly influences those policies and resources that can shape a student's abilities to succeed, afford, and thrive in college. Um, so, you know, thinking back to what my time in college, um, I came from a lower income household and There weren't as many resources that were available to me and I had to, I, I worked my way through college. Um, and so I didn't, I didn't focus, couldn't focus as much on my studies because I was working 2025, 30 hours a week, um, to get through, um, to be able to live, um, and afford, afford life, but also, um, pay part of the tuition that it wasn't covered by financial aid or whatever, um, and then also work on my studies because I'm there to study and I want to graduate. And so, um, I think that was a. You know, a good example of how advocacy can, when, when you want to change things that that might have changed my experience if certain things were in place earlier. Um, you, you said first generation student. I was a first generation student too, and I think that one of the, one of my biggest drivers for advocacy is just That, you know, like, I was, I'm a, I'm a first-generation immigrant, so here we come to another country, we don't even understand the educational structure, right? And so, navigating that alone, I, I can tell you I made some mistakes. I wish I would have had. I wish I would have had more people to tell me, don't max out your loans, you know, go to a community college, be mindful of, if, you know, there was a program, uh, that, um, That if you finished in 4 years, that they would forgive a certain part, I think, of your tuition. And so all of those, all of those things could have helped me, and they, I didn't know about them. And when you're 1st gen, I mean, to your point, you don't. to ask those things because you don't know that they're an option and that they exist, right? And so I think that one thing that fuels my advocacy is, I recall all those experiences as a first-timer doing financial aid, first-timer doing an application, first time we're trying to figure things out. And it excites me to serve first-generation students, low income, low socioeconomic, marginalized. It excites me, um, to the core because I feel like we're making a difference in their life. Um, but it also always brings me, like, back to this place of how much more can we do? How much more can we do? Why haven't, it, it's almost like frustration. Why haven't we moved the needle? Why haven't we done this before? Why hasn't this changed? And Although we only had 15 minutes with our representatives, I think that you could agree. We had very deep, meaningful conversations and they listened, they heard, uh, and they asked questions. There were, there was one office in particular where the staffer gave us their cell phone number and said, hey, call me, text me, I want to know more. And so, um, I think, I think that's, that's what they need more of, right? They, they're not higher ed people. They don't work at institutions. They don't see our students and what they go through and what they need. And so, every time, um, I know I got excited when he was like, call me if you need anything, and we were like, yeah, call us if you need anything. Call us if you want to learn more. Like we can sit here and talk about higher ed and higher ed issues all the time. Um, so I, I, I'm very thankful for your perspective. I just want you to know that I know I've been saying that to you since we met, but I learned so much about private institutions, and I think one of the feedback, uh, points that we gave to ACR was that idea, right? Like, hey, maybe pairing a private institution with the public, uh, for your institution is a really good idea because you can bounce off of each other and you can prove a point that Regardless of where the student lands and where they're gonna attend school, the necessities and the struggles are the exact same. Mhm, yeah, and thinking back to some of the conversations we had with the staffers, um, we had, we had one that was brand new to the education area and so we, we actually spent more than that, I think we got 25 minutes with her, um, or so, and it was a full like deep dive into not only what we had talked about, but a little more about. Our institutions and, and how these policies may affect them. Um, and then every, everyone we visited also, there was at least one issue we talked about in which they had no knowledge of. Um, and so that was nice to be able to bring at least something to every single one of them, um, and even afterward we, we, um, followed up with them via email and I got a few email responses back, um, from folks and, you know, sent them off to Acro, but, um, Yeah, it was just nice and they actually want to hear from you and I think that's one of the things we can provide to our um You know, elected officials as being the experts and the professionals they can rely on so that they don't need to go do that research themselves and then also we're able to to filter what's important and what's not, so they don't get bogged down in the. I think, I think another thing about Hill Day that I can say that I love and appreciate is that, you know, this experience is bipartisan. No matter where you are, no matter what side you sit on, we, when we are all in that room, we are all one united voice. Advocating for the same things that keep students from all different states, from all different types of institutions from attending or barriers that could that could potentially, uh, decrease enrollment or student success. And so I love that's, that's one of my favorite parts honestly about participating in HLA just we sit there in one room and there is, there is no. Color, there is no party. There is just one voice, one united voice. We're gonna go in there, we're gonna talk about this, we're gonna, you know, hopefully get through, um, some of these talking points and then, um, leave them with information with our contacts so that hopefully that can be impactful when it comes down to voting, which was happening that day too. Mhm. Yeah. I, I think that was one of the biggest things I learned too. So I had, I think I had some preconceived notions about how it was gonna go based on the issues, um, and who we were gonna speak with, and then that part didn't really turn out that way, um, and it was, it was just interesting because I was expecting it to, some of the conversations go completely different, um, but I think people are more willing to listen than We may, we may initially, yeah, I think when you sit down and, and you say, hey, we all want students to succeed, I don't, I don't know of anybody that would disagree with that, you know. Yeah, I think, and one thing I, if I could go back and redo pieces of this, I would probably see if we can incorporate more stories, right? So we, we had, we had a few stories to be able to tell, but if we had more stories for each, each one of our items, I think that would have been more, maybe more impactful, but Um, when we did go into the stories, I think that's where they made the, the bigger connection. So I guess if you're out there listening to and thinking about how you can advocate for folks, um, like bring a story or two, about how it directly impacts folks so it can tie back to real life, um, issues. Exactly. Um, what was one thing that you, um, learned, um, overall, maybe from legislation or maybe from Capitol Hill that you didn't know? So we, we'll go with a fun thing and then um something, something directly related to day. So I knew nothing about the, the bells system and the light system when we're in there. Um, so if you're not familiar, um, there's, there's different lights and sound system kind of in the, the. The offices that will indicate what they're doing and whether they're voting or like what what's happening. And so I didn't know about that and so here we're walking through the halls and I'm googling on my phone, like, what are these, what are these noises in the lights mean? Um, so it was interesting to get that done. So that was, so I, I learned about that. Um, but the other thing I learned is Advocacy is not really as scary as it initially seems. so every first timer in that room, I can almost guarantee you, we were all sweating through our shirts on Monday thinking this is, this is gonna be just like awful and miserable, and we're gonna be nervous the whole time. And really after going through that first meeting, it really was not scary. It wasn't as bad as it initially seemed, and I think that was a takeaway from a lot of first timers, at least those I've spoken with about it. And that we were very nervous going in, but after we started talking about it, we realized we do this every day in your exactly your campuses. You literally advocate. That's really, that's literally what we do. Um, hey, I'm, I'm wondering, were you nervous because you thought it was gonna go sideways? So I think, I think that was part of it, um, the other part of it was, it was just a little awe inspiring in a, in a way, right? So, um, just being there and doing that and you don't wanna, you don't wanna screw up, you don't wanna say something wrong and get fact checked like on the spot, uh, uh, and so you're thinking about those things, um. And So yeah, I am It was just, it was very awe inspiring, but at the same time, you know, it won't do anything wrong, um, and-- We took-- a whole ton of selfies. So if y'all follow Justin on LinkedIn, we, he shared some pictures. We took a lot of pictures, we had a lot of fun. I think we even got an intern to take a picture with us in the hidden, uh, high-security underground tunnels of Capitol Hill, which I enjoy. I'm actually spoiled because I think we tried getting to the other side through the top one, at one point and they were like, no, no, you already came out, you can't go back in. You tried very hard too, like you, you, it was a good like 3 or 4 minutes and I'm like, oh my gosh, we're gonna get arrested because, because she's like really pushing hard and I'm, I'm ready to get like full-on searched by the canines, um, and you're, you're still trying to get us through and I'm like, OK, it's like one of those issues where you're like, Mom, you're embarrassing me. I was like, I, I was really, I was, I was getting nervous, uh, and um. And finally, when you relented, I was like, OK,-- we just ended up walking-- a little bit and that's OK. I just, I just, I had, I had never left and not been able to come in before and I got spoiled because it was really hot. So it was really, really hot. Um, but otherwise, we had a ton of fun. I think, um. If you are somebody that wants to get involved, um, applications open in the spring. Acro shares them all the time. I'll share them, Justin will share them. Anybody who's done it will share them. We definitely need more voices. Um, we had a lot of meetings this year. We've had successful, um, Hill Day in the past few years, um, but I think that there are still stories out there to share, and there are experiences to be shared and And, you know, you have a powerful voice. If you are listening to this and you are on the edge and you, you don't know how to make a change or you want to make a change in higher education, do it through advocacy. You will not regret it. It is a great experience. You might even get to take pictures with congressional, um, congressional congressmen or women. You may even get to go in the underground tunnel and score some. Uh, Senate gallery tickets, uh, you know, it's just an experience all the way around. Yeah, and I, I think even if you don't do Hill Day, there are things you can do to, to advocate, right? So, you know, I think the first thing we work on college campuses, almost every college has a government relations team in office, like get in touch with them. So mine was very helpful before I left. We, we talked about kind of what it might look like and the issues at both at the state and federal levels, um, and I think a few of the meetings we were in, um, they were like, oh yeah, I know so and so from, and that was on Rice's government relations folks, so. They're, they're highly in tune to what's going on and so they can help you get involved. I think, you know, another thing is being the expert for your local representatives at the state level or, you know, your county judges or your, you know, people in the, you know, your mayor's office. Um, I also think we don't think about our digital advocacy as much as we could, so, you know, you mentioned LinkedIn, um, you know, you have X, you've got Instagram, um, that you can, you know, it's quick, it's efficient, you don't. It doesn't take too much work. And then last, I know I'm involved in TCR and SACR and ACR and so almost all of those, your state, regional, and international organizations, they'll have some kind of public policy committee you can be a part of. Um, so, you know, joining one of those is a nice, easy way to get involved and, and a lot of those organizations also have webinars or, you know, town halls you can join. And so I know ACRA has a few every now and then talking about the federal issues going on, but Um, if you don't have those at your state or regional level, you can, you can ask to, you know, ask for them from your executive committees or offer to do them yourself. Um, and if You know, you do it yourself. Um, people, people don't know, um, if you're doing well or not, um, if you're, it's the first time your, your state or regional has done that. So go out and go and do that. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's you, you, that's really good, Justin. You don't have to, we want you to go to Hill Day. But if you're, if you want to start small, then do so locally. Um, go to the regional offices. I know that Accraro, for example, has, um, some materials on the website where You can send letters to, to, um, to Congress, to your representative, and it's easy to do some advocacy through there. Um, I mean there's so many ways. I think the most important part is use your voice. Um, um, we have a lot of work to do. um, we have a lot of things that we could do better for students, um, and you know, a lot of people making decisions are not people that work in higher ed, and so they definitely need to hear from us. Thank you so much, Justin, for joining me on Transfer T and at Hill Day and putting up with me. I know I'm a chatterbox. Uh, so thank you so much for hanging out. It was a great time. I hope we do that again. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Advocacy isn't just about one day on the hill, it's about building relationships, sharing stories, and reminding policymakers that higher education is about people, not just policy. A big thank you to my colleague for joining me in today's conversation and for all of you for listening. If you're wondering how to get started, remember you don't need a plane ticket to Washington. Start small, learn who your representatives are, pay attention to the issues that affect your students, and don't be afraid to use your voice. If you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a colleague who might need a little advocacy inspiration. You can always reach us at transferte@acro.org with your thoughts, questions, stories. Until next time, keep showing up, keep telling your students stories, and that's the tea.