Mobility Without Wi-Fi: Rethinking Access in Prison Education Programs

As higher education expands its commitment to access, Prison Education Programs (PEPs) are playing an increasingly critical role in creating equitable pathways for learners. But what happens when education must function without Wi-Fi, laptops, student portals, or even consistent communication?

In this episode of Transfer Tea, we explore the operational, ethical, and mobility challenges institutions face when delivering academic programs inside correctional facilities. From academic integrity and FERPA compliance to transcript management and credit portability, we unpack what it truly means to uphold rigor and equity in paper-based environments.

If learning mobility is about continuity of opportunity, then it must include students whose movement is restricted. This conversation challenges higher education professionals to rethink infrastructure, policy, and design — and to ensure that opportunity does not stop at a prison wall.

Transcript

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Hi, you're listening to Transferte, a podcast for the ACro community sponsored by ACR, the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. I am your host, Loida, and it's time for a new episode. Higher education talks a lot about access. We talk a lot about equity, we talk a whole lot about student success, digital transformation, and seamless mobility, but what happens when access exists without the internet? What happens when learners cannot log into a portal, check a degree audit, download a transcript, or submit an assignment online? Today we're talking about prison education programs, also known as PEPs, and the real operational, ethical and academic questions institutions must wrestle with when serving students in correctional environments. Because behind the headlines about Pell Grant restoration and access expansion lies a deeper systems challenge. How do you uphold academic integrity? How do you manage records and compliance? How do you support learning mobility? When the tools we take for granted, Wi Fi, LMS, platforms, student portals simply do not exist. This episode is about designing education under constraint. It's about equity that requires infrastructure, and it's about what mobility really means when paper and pencils are the only technology available. Let's get to it. Hello there, Transportee listeners. We are back with another exciting episode and an equally exciting guest that, gosh, I, I'm just gonna let you introduce yourself cause I can't wait. Hi everyone, I'm Daniel O'Driscoll. I'm the associate vice president for academic affairs in the university registrar at Roger Williams University, which is located in Bristol, Rhode Island. And currently possibly under snow, slightly. We are about 3 ft under the snow. We just got through a blizzard that started on Sunday and ended on Tuesday, so we are still digging out. Oh no. No, but somehow the, the stars aligned, and we still got Dan on this episode. So that's really exciting because we have a topic that is not commonly discussed. So, for the listeners that that might not be familiar, myself included, by the way, um, Dan, how would you define a prison education program in today's higher education landscape? Sure, in just full disclosure. Probably 2 years ago, I didn't know what a prison education program was that much either, so, um, we're all in good company. So a prison education program is when we deliver our curriculum and our existing curriculum, what we call behind the walls to incarcerated individuals, um, in an effort to educate them and reintroduce them to society in meaningful and effective ways. So, why do you believe, I'm curious, we're gonna call them PEPS, so prison education programs, um, that why do you believe they're, they might be created not just as an access initiative, but also a learning mobility issue? Sure, so also full disclosure, I not only do I register in an institution that does this, but I also teach behind the walls, so I sort of see both sides of it, um. And you know, there's, there could be skepticism out there or just unawareness as I like to call it, um, but I think the important, one of the reasons that my institution does this is because there's students that don't have access to education, um, and it's an interesting population in that, you know, incarcerated individuals, you know, might not always be incarcerated, they might be going up for parole, they might be released, um. And so we want to reduce the rate of recidivism, right? So the, the rate at which Incarcerated folks are coming back to prison for um You know, other Crimes that they might commit. So, we think our our goal is to educate them and reintroduce them to society so that they can effectively get jobs and sort of just move on with their lives and help them to transition that way. And I think it's, it's beautiful, by the way that you teach as well. That must be like a truly rewarding experience to just just be a part of the, um, the procedural part, you know, getting access to them, but also actually educating them. That must be really nice. I will tell you, and, you know, my family can attest to this, that it's, it's been one of the most rewarding experiences that I've ever had. I, I wasn't really sure what to expect. I had to go through a plethora of training before I was able to do this. Um, and things are very, very different behind the walls, you know, we don't have access to the internet, um, you know, different. Institutions have different levels of internet access, um, and even no internet access or technology, and so everything is really, really old school. And so it was definitely a learning curve for me, but To see Really, my um course evaluations are what what really made me. Excited to see that that that truly I'm making a difference. What subject do you do you teach, by the way? I'm just curious. I teach public speaking ironically, so really, you wouldn't know it by all the ums I'm making, um, and there's another we don't pass judgment on the podcast. So, um, just to like get us warmed up to this topic a little bit more, what misconceptions do people in higher education often have about educating students inside correctional facilities? You know, I can only speak to my own biases and, you know, I, I can, I'm human, and so, and one of the things I teach is biases and stereotyping and perceptions, and so we talked about that a lot in my class, but I think it's Whether it's everyone in jail is just inherently bad or that some folks probably don't think the having the need to educate these folks, um. You know, I was told a long time ago that, that people, and this is my own personal opinion, it might not be accurate, but there are people are in jail for one of three reasons. One, They made a mistake. And now they're You know, I don't want to say pink. Now they're doing their time, right, as the law allows 2. Upbringing They might not have had a lot of resources or support, um, and so it led them down a path that ultimately led to them being incarcerated. In 3, some people, unfortunately, are just inherently At risk to do awful things. You know, we live in a society where terrible things happen, um, and prisons exist to keep us safe from those folks. So, um, my perception, you know, when I, I signed on to do this, I was a little bit skeptical, but And I was, I was also nervous cause I didn't know what to expect, um. But Seeing folks. That truly want to learn, you know, I, I've taught this course for 15 years and I taught to honor students and incoming freshmen and first year students, at-risk students. But this was a not only these adult learners, they're because of the nature of who they are, they're a captive audience and they have really nothing but time on their hands, and they, they want, I've never met a group of students who wanted to learn more, honestly, really, yeah, it's so interesting. Maybe because they don't take it for granted, right? Or,-- or maybe-- because And, you know, I, I signed papers and, you know, we It's, we're limited in what we can do because, you know, I always assigned sort of a research paper about the communication process, um. But they don't have, they have limited access to resources, um, you know, they can tap into sort of a, a public library, um, online, but they, they can't use the internet at all. They don't have devices, um. Some of them have devices. It depends on where you are, but So I had a really, really pivot to make it work and, and I had, when I say pivot, what, how I was delivering my course, but also what the outcomes were going to be because I, I could teach public speaking and communication, but I decided to include a resume building class because some of these people haven't. Had to build a resume and, you know, won't have use for one for 3 or 4 more years. But I thought interviewing would be a good way to segue into some of the communication topics we talked about. That's so awesome and meaningful, I'm sure for whenever, you know, they're, they transition out and come back, uh, at the end of the day, we truly just want to help this population reintegrate successfully into society. Yeah. Now, obviously, people like me may not know or have experienced ever what a facility looks like. So, can you paint that picture for us? What is the learning environment actually look like inside a correctional facility? So, there's, their actual, you know, it depends, uh, you know, cert certainly from um, Facility to facility, state to state, um, you know, even at one facility, there could be several different learning. Places we call them within the you know within that institution, um, I've been lucky enough to actually have a classroom. It's not a huge classroom, um, and we're limited on the number of students we can have and And by the way, just to clear the air, the students don't just opt into these classes. There's a significant program that they have to go through. You have to, um, there's a large point system. So they have to be, and, and they consider it to be good time, um, and so they're working their way towards parole and they can't have any sort of violations and they have to opt into the program, they have to be accepted into the program, um, and so there's actually a learning facility that we're allowed to use. Sweet. Um, uh, what are some of the biggest operational constraints institutions, uh, face, and you did mention like no Wi Fi, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around like how you educate somebody without the use of technology. Just today in one of my, uh, Virtual classes. I, you know, I use Kahoot and all of these other, uh, educational tools, menting meter, and so I'm just trying to wrap my mind around like what did, what did the operational constraints look like. Sure, so, you know, as an instructor. I, I always go to reach my cell phone or, you know, go to Google something, you know, even to watch a video on the fly, and I just don't have that. Ability. And so it, it's difficult and you have to really, really, really plan ahead and you have to be ready to pivot at any moment. From an operational perspective. You know, we're always telling students that email is our main form of communication with them, um. You know, go online and fill out this form, you know, if you want to put a directory block so that we don't release your information, just go online and fill out this form. You want to order your transcripts, go to this website. We don't have that luxury within the prison system. And so it's a lot of paper, um, and it's a lot of working with these folks, but also working with other institutions. For example, A lot of these folks um are eligible for Pell, which is significantly helpful. But in order to be Pell eligible, you have to show that you graduated from high school. And we have students who have graduated from other institutions or have transferred credit, but we still have to have that, you know, proof of high school graduation on file. And we were having trouble getting one from someone from another state. And this person got a GED. Which made it a little bit more difficult, and they wanted this person to have a notarized copy and to go online and pay for it. And as much as we tried to explain that that couldn't happen, they were really unwilling to work with us. And so we ended up calling the state education program and said, can you work with us? This is our situation. Um, and it took a couple of weeks, right? And so that delayed the student being able to take classes. And so it was, um, It's a little bit difficult, but those are some of the things that anytime you think of sending a student an email or, you know, they can't even look at their own grades online, um, course evaluations, we have to fill them out and have someone data enter them into our system after the fact. And so. You know, I think we often take for granted all the technology that we have as higher ed folks, um, And as much as I really don't like to print out a piece of paper, we have to, um, and actually ACR is putting together a resource for, um, enrollment managers and registrars to guide them through prison education programs, knowing that there is so much paper involved and that. You know, one of the things we do is we call them office hours, so we have trained individuals that go into or go behind the walls, um, regularly to meet with these students when they can, so that they can ask questions and, you know, they're reviewing transfer credit and trying to get the transcripts from the other colleges. So it's. It's really, really old school, but it's really, really necessary to make this all work. Yeah, it sounds like you've had to redesign a lot of things, the curriculum, the advising, the acquisition of credits, or the credit transcripts and records. Um, I, I can't imagine a world without QR codes and technology, you know, and the avail the avail availability to scan. I mean, we We learned that we picked that up post-COVID, right? It just seems like it progressed even more, um, so I'm just trying to imagine as you're speaking like what that actually looks like in practice, uh, because, you know, saying it is one thing, but actually doing it is looks different. Uh, I'm curious to, uh, to know what surprised you the most when you first started working there. That I was actually in a prison, I think, and that that's not saying I forgot where I was because of what I was doing. Um. You know, I, I really Transparently chose not to Google anyone in my class because I didn't want to know what why they were, where they were, um. But having open discussions and just, they come from all walks of life. You know, I have young adults to, you know, 60 odd year olds, um, You know, from all, all around, who have all these different experiences, but spoke to it in an academic way, and their interests, you know, I, I had folks that were really interested in history and really interested in engineering, and, you know, really wanted to hone their skill, um. You know, A lot, they also, they sometimes they, well, not, they have jobs, right? So they, they're given jobs within the facility, and so they were able to speak about fit like work issues that I have, you know, like you're dealing with a lot of different personalities, there's time crunches, um. And so it was, it was eye opening to Interact with these folks who really just wanted to learn, um. But then the surprising part was, you know, I said I, I sort of forgot that I was in a prison because we would get into these really great discussions and they were learning, and I was teaching and I was learning, um. And then they would make an announcement and I would head back, you know, to the facility and go through all the security, and they would go back to, you know, their dorms or, you know, where they're living and that. I had to remind myself that that's what was happening, right? Like they are all wearing the same thing. They all walked back to the same place and I was leaving and going to my car and probably gonna stop and get a coffee on my way to campus kind of thing. Um, it was, it was, it, it was a shock every week when I had to do it. Yeah. Yeah, the fact that you can be in there but you're not incarcerated in there, you know, you can, you can get to walk out and, and go back to technology and go back to your processes and, you know, work with, um, students who, who are, you know, sometimes we take those things for granted, I think, yeah, no, 100%. Um, I, I have questions now, um, revolving around academic integrity and like records and compliance, uh, just to get a little bit deeper, like, you know, these students don't have an LMS, so what does, um, upholding academic integrity look like for them? But also what does it look like for us in terms of identity verification? Like, I assume they don't have like licenses to say, hey, I'm John Doe, you know, and like FERPAA compliance and records. Like, what does that look for them and to them and what is, how does that look to you? So we work with. The prison to ID them, right? And so they have an ID through the prison, um, and so we work with, they actually have an assigned person that we work with that runs the education program on the inside and so we, it's a collaboration to ensure who the who are, um, you know, completing FASFAs is sometimes on paper, um, and so it's, it's tricky again, but it's Something that we have to do, and then. You know, FERPA is. It can be really difficult because, you know, and it works both ways, right? So they might not want their directory information, but they have to sign a FERPA release for some people to be able to look at their educational records that might not have the legitimate educational interest. You know, sort of a go-between person between university and the prison, um. We just make sure that we have all of our I's dotted and T's crossed, um. And we work with these students, sometimes individually, sometimes as a group, and are just constantly revisiting how we do things. But again, it's a lot of it's just on paper and requires, you know, someone going in with Sometimes they bring a suitcase because it's just easier um to have all the students complete what they need and I think one of the biggest hurdles that I see is that a lot of times these students can't be the recipients of mail, right? So what do we do with their diplomas? What do we do when they order a transcript? Who does it get sent to, um, and how are they ordering their transcripts from other institutions to be sent to ours when some institutions, you know, everyone should be taking the paper form, I would think. Given the situation, but it's hard to explain to, you know, universities that collected from a third party or have a processing center. Um, and so a lot of times it's, it's picking up the phone and working with those different institutions or Third party is to make sure that, you know, we can do as much as we can given the circumstances. I can only imagine the delay like uh you're, you're speaking and I can just, just everything going through our mind is delay and delay, delay because, because again, like, I don't know how long it's been, you know, that I last ordered a paper transcript for a student. Everything's like parchment, you know, uh. EDI just send it over, you know, bring in an official and we'll work it out and, you know, and you can generally electronically, you can track those things if they get lost, you find them, you know where they're going, you pick it up and you can do all the things in one day, um, but, but, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't thought about the depth of that, like mail getting lost, where does it go to, assuming, assuming that it needs to be paid, how does it get paid? You know, assuming that there's other barriers like maybe names not matching, which is, which is a commonality, right? People that are married or unmarried or divorced or whatever, or or their parents, you know, change their name, um, for whatever reason, like all those nuances of figuring out who a person is and matching them to the records to get the records, to get them in, and, uh, it just, it just seems so much more complex. At first glance, it's like, yeah, there's a delay. Um, but it just seems much more complex when you listen to how it actually plays out. Yeah, and the other thing that's interesting too is that as far as the university and the registrar's office is concerned, they're in our system like every other student, right? And so they are getting emails because, you know, we credentialed them when they come in and they're assigned an email address, um. And if they ever had internet access, they could utilize our systems, but we have to forget that, we have to remember that they're a different population and we don't, and we Don't identify them as such in the system so that if anyone was to come across them, they wouldn't know if they were, you know, a distance ed learner or someone on campus. Um, it would do that purposefully, but it's, you know, you have to remember these things when you go to order diplomas that we have to have them shipped back to the university because we can't have it shipped to the prison. So, in, um, in this season of Transportee, we are focusing on learning mobility, which I'm sure you've heard that, uh, you know, uh, term swirling since you are an ACCRA member, um, but when we talk about learning mobility or, or credit mobility, what does that mean for students who are currently incarcerated? So You know, I don't think it means. I, I see it from two different perspectives. One is that it really doesn't mean anything different for these folks because they're coming from institutions, they're looking to go to, you know, maybe complete work at our institution, maybe move on to a different program or um a different credential in some way, shape or form. There's just a couple more barriers up for them. Um. You know, again, like we try to work with them as much as we can, but it's, it's all the paper process in trying to get the transfer credit and some of these folks stopped out. You know, maybe in the 90s, and so it's hard to get, you know, the university, like any university, not everything is online at your university. We have archives and so it, it causes the delay and then When we go to show them their transcripts that they ordered. It doesn't always reflect what they thought it did, right, because they stopped out and then it's working with that institution and then, you know, there might not be someone who there that remembers and they only have to go on by what they have to go on and then it's explaining to the student, you didn't complete your degree like you thought you did, um, you know, and it's, it's, it's just adding levels of time in between how anything gets accomplished and so it's, it's difficult, but I think. You know, and sometimes they really, you know, and understandably they want answers right away and they want us to look into things, but Again, we can't communicate, like they can't send us emails, we can't send them emails, so we can't, you know, we have a once a week follow up with them if they can make it to the office hour, which sometimes they can't because there could be um Like students have missed my class because there was a mandatory flu clinic or um they had various doctors appointments or, you know, their public defender was in that day. And so these things just sort of add on to the whole paper process in the timeliness of it. So it's I think, and they're also. They're not taking a full load either, right? They're taking one, maybe two classes a semester, and so their rate of progress is slower than that of, um, you know, certainly some folks take time to earn their degrees, but they're really, they don't have the opportunity to take more classes. And so it's, you know, it's, it's a timeliness thing for them as well. And then, Sometimes you have folks that switch between different levels within the system. They might be moving from maximum to minimum, um, and so if that's happened during the middle of our, our regular semester, what do we do because now we can't deliver that class and so do we withdraw the student? Is it after the withdrawal period? How does that impact Pell, um, you know, it's, it's. Everything you would think of, but then add like 10 more steps and a lot more time to try to figure it out. Is there, is there flexibility on stuff like Pell? I mean, we, we know that the Big Beautiful bill was rolled out. There were changes, a lot of uh financial aid changes were included. Um, is there flexibility for these type of students in Pell? I'm just curious. Yeah, so there, the federal government says that um they're Pell eligible just based on. You know, their income, um, and the various other things that are calculated into Pell, so as of right now they're still eligible, um. You know, I don't know if anyone knows what's gonna happen tomorrow, let alone down the road, um, but, you know, they, right now, some of them are, not all of them, but some of them are eligible for PE, you know, based on their household income, their income, you know, their work, their status, all of those things. OK. So, students then, you know, um, they take some classes. What happens to those credits when the learner is released and wants to transfer. To their education and I'm gonna like have a have a second question for that. Do they, do they know like pathway? Do they know the pathway that they're going to, or are they, in, in your experience, are they taking credits because they're available because they want to acquire, you know, that education, um, because as you, as we both know, um, the applicability is gonna vary by state and so are those conversations that take place, preparation that takes place to, um, kind of set the expectation for them. I think it's both and, um, you know, we, we work with this population very, very closely. We have a couple of staff that really this is just their position is to work with these folks. And so, in, in full disclosure, some of these students, and, and I had students say this to me, they're never leaving prison, right? Um, and I don't want to say this is just something for them to do, but they're looking to grow their minds and to learn more and to Expand their horizons even though they'll never be leaving prison, and that's OK. Um, some folks, you know, might be released soon, they might be up for parole, their sentence might be over. Um, I've had folks leave, you know, right before my last class and were released, um, in a, you know, still pursuing their degree. So it's, I mean, it's, it's so different from, for every individual student. But again, you know, we try to make it work. The thing about my institution too is that we actually, we have a program that works with Inmates there, or I hate to use the word inmates, incarcerated folks, um, that are about to be released and react whether they're in this program or not, to reacclimate them to society, and so we work with the education system pretty closely within the walls. What, what role could we play as practitioners, as registrars and transfer professionals to strengthen the mobility of pathways for these students? You know, I think it's It's helping students and meeting them where they are, especially given their circumstances. So, you know, we're all very busy, you know, we all have, everyone's so stretched in these days, but, you know, like my, we couldn't get the GED, right? Normally we would put that back on the student and say, you know, this is what needs to be done. Let us know when it's done, um, but it's going the extra step knowing that someone doesn't just physically can't do it. And so I think it's. Like I said, meeting them where they are, but being understanding of their situation as well and knowing that. Some of the credits that are coming into your institution or leaving your institution, you know, it's It might not just be the typical undergrad or grad or distance education learner, um. But they're There's, and, and I said this before, but at the end of the day, they are still our students and we view them as regular university students. Yeah, yeah, and if and if mobility is about, uh, continuity of learning, uh, what breaks most often in the transition whenever they go from incarceration to campus or to online enrollment? You know, I can't say for sure because we, we, I don't know that we've had a lot of students do that, um, or we have, and I just don't know about it, which is OK too, right, because we don't identity students that way, um. I would, I think, probably, I would guess. Leaving the educational environment they're accustomed to within the walls and then going online, right, and, you know, using an LMS and being told to check your email, um, and to upload your paper, you know, I, I assigned unknowingly, well, I sort of knew, but Uh, a five-page paper and And I should have known this, but I, you know, I was new, um, and when I got them all, they were all handwritten because they don't have access to computers or to printers, um, so I think for that population it's, it's gonna be difficult to, I think technology, technology, even in the last 3 years, right, if we just think about AI, how far that's come, um, and they hear about these things, you know, they have access to TVs and the news and things like that. But working with it every day, I think, um, I think that would probably be the hurdle. And so that's what we're trying to do is, you know, to acclimate them to. The outside As far as society is concerned, but also in an educational way. That's beautiful, and so, so important. Um, now, Dan, as an academic, as a faculty, um, do you see PEPs treated as an integrated academic program or as a separate parallel system? You know, I think I see it as both because It is It, it, it has to be separate in some way, shape or form just because of the different modality that we deliver the education in, but at the same time, there are degree programs that already existed, there are classes that are in existence, um, you know, if it's A gen ed for, you know, and it's, there's 30 different sections we're using the syllabi from that department, um, and so it's just really the delivery and the location that is different, but it's, it is its own program in that it's specifically for these students. But if you were to pull our numbers, you would see, you know, this group of students in this program, but also, you know, 200 other students that are pursuing the same degree. Oh, nice. Um, what ethical considerations, if any, um, should institutions be thinking about beyond compliance? You know, this is gonna sound so high level and so basic, but I think I think they need to think about the stereotyping and um you know who these folks are and the stereotypes that that come with. Incarcerated folks, you know, and, and this is a conversation that I'm always having with my students, um. We're so used to what TV shows us and no offense, what podcasts, you know, you listen to a true crime podcast or you watch Dateline or if you're me, you watch old school episodes of Law and Order, um Law and Order, right? Oh, I, I'm like 1999 Law and Order. I still, I still DVR it, um. But It's just so different and to get that perspective. It's so very different, and all I, all I know about the students that I teach and the students that I work with from the registrar's perspective is that They're incarcerated, you know, and, and I don't. Really engage with them about why they're there or, and they don't, and they know how to engage with me, that's part of the program. Um, they have, you know, they have an advocate, they have resources within the walls, um, but I think it's and this is I see it differently as an academic, certainly, not everyone in society agrees that this should be happening, and I can, I understand that perspective too, and that's can be tied to legislative things and dollars, um, depending on your state, your municipality, um, all of those things, but we are seeing more and more PEP. Institutions and programs pop up, um. Which I think is great because again, And at the, the, the basic level is that Some of these folks will be reintroduced to society with this program or without this program. And so, I think as institutions and as academics, we want to offer them the best transition we can, so that, you know, the recidivism rate is low and that that they do something with their education and that it's helped them to transition back to society. I can understand how there's uh, a stigma, you know, there's a stigma about a lot of things from very simple, um, you know, not too long ago, transfer students were, there's a stigma involved. Now we've transformed that, you know, through learning mobility, and now we encompass all these other populations, um, so I, I could understand that. I, I used to call transfer, um, a multi-marginalized population because there were so many levels of, um. I won't say discrimination is a word, I think just them being overlooked. I, I was a transfer student, so I, and, and I felt that as an undergrad, and things have come a long way, believe me, um. But I, I know how it feels to, you know, sort of be stereotyped as that transfer student who came in and didn't know any of the upperclassmen and, you know, even though I was taking classes with them, um. But one of the things that continues to resonate with me is that When we say we're going to reintroduce these folks into society and we're talking about stereotyping, one of the first things that people see on a job application is, have you ever been convicted of a crime, right? And, and the They've told me, my class, my students that, and I can see this, a lot of people stopped at that line, right? You've been convicted of a crime, you're, you're, we're not gonna look at your application any further, you know, sometimes, you know, the common app asks that, so it's um. It's difficult and so I, I'm gonna get back to my, how, you know, what beyond ethics, what can we do? And it's, and I'm not asking anyone, you know. Everyone has to make their own decisions, but it's definitely Rewired my brain to how I think. Absolutely, I mean, you're immersed in it, you see, you see a side that some of us will, uh, probably never see, um, and, and so I think that, that your voice is important and your experience is also important. Do you think that, or, or where do you think higher education still has a blind spot, um,-- in this-- work? I think it differs from region to region, state to state. Um, You know, New England has one of the highest concentrations of universities and colleges and Educated folks just living in our states and so. I, I'm, I'm aware that that's not how Every state is and that the prison system differs from state to state, um. And so I think And I don't know, you know, how different systems are rolling this out, you know, a lot of state systems, we're starting to see some activity in a lot of private not for profit institutions, um. But I think it's, it's how do we make this equitable for, for everyone, regardless of who you are, where you are, and what you do. Because truly we all make mistakes. Uh, yes, right, I mean, some, some are, some are greater than others, but, but we are indeed, and you know, we appreciate, I think as humans a second chance, and, well, and these students are working at that, you know, like I said there, they don't just register for classes like our other students, you know, they have to opt in, they have to have so much good time in order to be eligible for this program, um. They want to get back into society and they want to do well in society and I think there's a stigma to someone who has been in prison and that's, it's still difficult for me to get over, um, but now I have that little thought in the back of my mind that says, could you have been a student in my class, you know, could you have earned your degree? Could you have done well, um, could you use the skills that you used or that you had to use working in the kitchen or in You know, The hair salon And pivot outside of the prison and be successful, you know, I, I try to ask myself those things, and it's hard. It's, it's not easy, we're humans. Yeah, I think, I think I've always imagined that my purpose in higher education is tied to changing society. If you want to change society, we educate them, right? We get people off the streets, we get them into, into jobs, we, that, that'll help them discover their purpose. And so I think as you're speaking, like it had never just dawned on me that um there is another population, you know, that in the same way needs our help to get out of, um, you know, what the situation that they're in. Um, and, and, and still, they still need that hope, right, that, that there's, that they have a purpose, that they can come back and maybe start again or recover, you know, the life that they have lost. Right? I always say that education is something that we give to others that we can't take away, and it's one of the only things that really has that impact. Yes, absolutely. So, so Dan, if an institution is considering launching a PEP what's the first, um, system-level question that they should ask themselves? I think you need to think about it operationally first, um, work with your registrar's office, work with the admissions folks if there's gonna be, you know, how the application portion of it works, are they gonna be eligible? I think you need a lot of people in the room, um, and I think you need to walk through scenarios, you know, who are these students, how are we gonna maintain their records, how are we're gonna collect all this data, um. It does come up with a lot of data entry and who's going to be doing that data entry. Yeah, it is, and you, you, like I said, my course evaluations all had to be entered because they go into the system like everybody else, and you know, we look at them holistically and from a high view and so it's really the operational piece in how you move forward and how you're collecting data, how you're communicating with these students, um. How you're communicating with the prison system itself, and so it's, I think that's the first step is just really thinking about how you're going to collect the information and how you're going to disperse the information and have your forms ready. If you have an old copy of a FERPA form or a transcript release form. Don't throw it away. utilize it. It will be very useful, um, yeah, um, what is one policy that institutions should review immediately if they're trying to implement, uh, PEPs? Um, You know, I think probably the awarding of credit in thinking about, you know, do you have time restrictions, you know, if you haven't transferred, if it's been over 10 years, um, you know, I think really across the board that that has impacts on mobility, but because these students move through their programs at such a slow rate, I think having those policies in place sometimes puts students at a disadvantage. Yeah, absolutely, understandable. Um, what role can associations like ACR play in supporting this work? I think that we continue to have the discussion and to pull these folks together, um, who are doing it because I think that there's an audience there and I think, and I know that we can learn from each other. Um, you know, I mentioned that ACR is going to be releasing a publication, sort of a, a guide to best practices. Um, I'm gonna plug my session at Acro for a minute, um, and we will be talking about this and it will be discussion based, but I think I think there's a community of academics who are doing this, and I think sharing and communicating is,-- is the best way to improve your-- programs. I'm so glad you put the plug, that seamless little plug of your annual meeting presentation. I was gonna do it if you didn't. I snuck it right in there. I figured you might, but you know. Absolutely, which, by the way, is a NOLA. So if you're listening to this and you're an institution that is interested in this conversation, Dan will be there. We will all be there. We'd love to meet you. We'd love to have a conversation, and you can just continue learning from Dan and all the knowledge that he shares with us. Um, one more question, just kind of to wrap things up and, and, um, Uh, I, out of curiosity, honestly, what gives you hope about the future of the prison education programs? I think doing the work that we're doing. And seeing it at the ground level. And seeing these students want to learn and want to do better and want to be successful. Truly, truly gives me hope that. Folks are released from prison every day, and as these programs grow, students are going to be leaving with an education and be ready to re-enter society. And Not Want to maybe or want to move forward with their lives and To be successful at what they're doing and to get jobs and to use their education to do that. Um. That gives me the most hope. When you frame it like that, it makes me feel like it's everybody's business, right, because they're coming back to our societies, our neighborhoods, and so, so, so we should take some personal responsibility too, um, in an access from an access lens to support and, um, you know, just, just be very present for this population. And I would say too that, you know, prison is, it's not just to lock people away, it's about rehabilitation. Um, you know, we consider these folks, you know, time served, right? You, you were sentenced to a, you committed a crime, you were sentenced, you know, you've done your time. This is just above and beyond that, um. I, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't think about the victims, right, and, um, the impacts that this has on them, um, but I, I, I come back to once someone serves their time, they're going to be released and how can we make them successful at that. Right, right. Well, Dan, thank you so much for the depth, for your heart and how much you care about this. It's, it's, I can feel it all the way to Texas. It's not transactional for you. It's very relational. It's very real and, and even transformative. And so, thank you for coming on and Transportation and sharing all of those thoughts and emotions with us. Thank you for having me and connecting again. So nice to see you. It's been such a long time. You know we'll have to meet up at the annual meeting. We sure will. See y'all in Nola. bye everyone. If learning mobility means anything, it must include learners whose movement has been restricted. Access cannot just be about admission letters, it has to be about infrastructure, it has to be about record systems, it has to be about credit portability, it has to be about designing institutions that function even when Wi Fi doesn't. Prison education programs challenge us to rethink our default assumptions about higher education. They ask us to ask better questions. Are we truly equitable or just digitally convenient? This is transferee, where learning mobility needs practice, where transfer is more than a process, it's a promise because learning doesn't have to stop and neither should opportunity, and in this case, opportunity shouldn't stop at a prison wall.