If It’s Not Built for Students, Rebuild It

Transfer isn’t broken because people don’t care — it’s broken because processes go unexamined. In this episode of Transfer Tea, Loida sits down with Alex Aljets to talk about why institutions must continuously assess and map their processes if they truly want to serve students well. From transfer credit articulation to adult learner applications to onboarding communications, they explore how well-intentioned systems often create invisible barriers. If you believe student success requires more than good intentions, this episode is for you.

Host:

Dra. Loida González Utley
Director of Recruitment and Enrollment Services
Texas A&M University- Central Texas

Guest:

Alex Aljets
Process Improvement Strategist
Aljets Consulting, LLC
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexaljets/
Email: alex@aljetsconsulting.com

Join us at The Assembly this July! FMI: https://www.aacrao.org/events-training/meetings/the-assembly

Transcript

0:00

Hi, you're listening to Transferte, a podcast for the ACro community sponsored by ACR, the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. I am your host, Loida, and it's time for a new episode. Welcome back to Transfer T, where learning mobility meets practice, where transfer is more than a process, it's a promise, because learning doesn't stop and neither should opportunity. Today we're talking about something that makes people a little uncomfortable, process, not policy, not people, process, specifically process mapping. Because here's the truth, most institutions don't struggle because they lack care, they struggle because their systems were built for a different time, a different student, or a different set of assumptions. If we say we are student-centered, then our processes should reflect that, and that requires constant assessment, reflection, and sometimes rebuilding. Today I'm joined by Alex Alget to talk about why process mapping matters, why transfer exposes institutional friction like nothing else, and why continuous improvement isn't optional, it's ethical. Let's get into it. In higher education, when something isn't working, we often assume it's a people problem, but many times the issue isn't people, it's the process. Transfer is one of the places where this shows up the most. Students encounter multiple offices, multiple policies, and multiple steps that were often. Built at a different time and for very different purposes, and yet we still expect the experience to feel seamless. So today we're talking about why institutions must constantly assess their processes if they truly want to align with students. Here with me today is my special guest who will introduce herself. Hello, I'm Alex Algetz. I'm a process improvement strategist with Algetz Consulting. How are you doing today, Alex? Oh, I'm doing wonderful, thanks for asking. So Alex and I met through process mapping, I think summer we said of 2024, um, as, um, the institution I work for, um, wanted to take a look, take a deep, deeper dive into process mapping and kind of looking at the gaps. We found a whole bunch of information. Um, and we, we went through a lot of very uncomfortable moments of assessment. Um, so thank you for those uncomfortable moments, Alex. Um, but also we're gonna talk about those moments and, and why they're needed and meaningful. So before we dive into specific examples, let's start with the basics. What do we actually mean when we talk about process mapping in higher education? Yeah, wonderful, happy to share that. So process mapping, you might think of, uh, a flow chart, and it definitely involves some of those, but it's more than that. It's a way to examine how the people we serve experience our institutions. And so in this case, students and specifically transfer students. Um, so it's not just a flow chart, it's a way to understand how work actually happens. Uh, I'm a former academic advisor myself and was, uh, for years helping students navigate the complex processes at my institution. Uh, I, I learned about process improvement and realized this is what higher ed needs, uh, to be able to look at our processes. Uh, step back a little bit, assess our current state, see where there are issues, and use our understanding of those issues in order to improve our processes. So based on my experiences working with all types of campus processes, I've, I've distilled and kind of customized a process improvement methodology, uh, that's focused, uh, on higher education. And it actually is, is really simple that you map your Current state process, you analyze that process to uncover issues in the experience that are potential barriers for students or, or headaches for your staff, and then you use that understanding of those issues to make changes to improve your process. And uh when you do that collaboratively with a, a team, even a cross-campus team, you can really make real change in how students and others experience your institution. And do we have a lot of gaps, uh, and I, and those just come to life so boldly as, as you sit down and process map. That was my first process mapping experience, by the way. Initially, Alex, I'm not gonna lie, it was like, OK, here we are, another professional development session, and nothing is going to come out of this. We're just going to do the same thing over and over again, but I was wrong. Wrong, uh, I stand completely corrected, um, and so there are a few, uh, concepts that we are going to talk about today, um, the three P's. So policy, which is what the rules say, practice, which is what staff actually does, and process, which is the step that the students, the steps that the students must navigate, um, and so. In thinking of process mapping and um what it means and why it's necessary, I think um the most important part is to go back to the students, like how can we reduce friction for the students as students are trying to navigate. um, our systems and then the other part, uh, that is not does not start with a P is, uh, our assumptions, you know, the, the unfortunate assumptions that we make about students and, uh, before we even encounter them. Um, and so when you start looking at student success through a process lens, you begin to see how many barriers are built into the systems that were never intentionally designed for today's learners, and I don't think anybody in higher education that is passionate about serving students intentionally says, hey, I'm gonna put this roadblock here so that, you know, to make. Make this impossible. I think to the contrary, sometimes we unintentionally create those roadblocks because of the assumptions that we make, uh, assuming that this roadblock is going to make the experience better, um, or, you know, it it feel more seamless for the students, um, and then we realize that we're wrong. And that realization often leads to the work you do, um, now, Alex, with institutions mapping their processes, um, and sharing their stories and their pinch points. So I really want to take an opportunity to hear from you, to talk about some of those, uh, stories that you have experienced, um, and all the ways that they have changed the student experience. Yeah, I'm happy to share it. So I, and I'd agree with you. I've, uh, every process mapping session I've led, folks are surprised how many steps there are, cause you know, you're one little slice of, of a process, but you might not know what steps students are doing with, with your colleagues. So, for instance, uh, you know, take a, like new, the time period before, uh, orientation for a new student, transfer student, first-year student, either, either way, uh, that. You know, you're from one office, you know that you have to have students, you know, log into your portal and complete a step. Great. It's just one step, it's not a big barrier, it's required for a compliance reason, maybe, there's, there's good reasons you have these steps in your process. And multiply that type of task by 10 other offices that the students interacting with in the same time period. And once you, if you sat down with those colleagues and all of you mapped your steps during that onboarding process, you'd quickly see, wow, the student is navigating probably 10 different systems and all these different steps with different timelines, they're getting emails from every different department, and it quickly becomes a little unwieldy and, um, especially for students that, you know, have other things going on in their life, maybe, you know, uh That they have families, they have jobs, they have other experiences. Maybe they're the first in their family to come to college and they're questioning whether they fit in the first place, um, and, when they're getting a sporrage of emails. So, process mapping gives us a chance to, to look holistically at what is the student experience, what, uh, during specific key time periods, and transfer is a really important time, uh, in a student's journey. You mentioned communications. Um, I, uh, so this is, this is just a personal, a personal, um, sharing a personal story here. Um, we, we, um, we redid our communication plans about a year ago, and, um, it has been. Decided to submit an inquiry from graduate school without telling me, he just did it online because he was curious, and I guess he wanted to go through the RFI process, instead of asking his wife. So he did just that and then. Um, I saw the communications plan play out on top of other communications plans that I was not aware existed. Uh, when we receive, uh, that information, and so, um, I think that was an impactful lesson, you know, watching it play out. For example, one of the, one of the messages that came, that came out said, we're here to help you just reply to this chat, and it was on a Saturday morning while we were at a soccer game, which, you know, you don't think of those things, like, why are the timing, you know, of that communication, why are we sending it out at this time? Why don't we have parameters, you know, um. And so to your point, um, I think process mapping, especially in the communications, um, side and understanding, um, that the student is probably being bombarded, um, with a lot of communication through a lot of different methods, um, and sometimes we just don't take the time to understand those we, we focus solely on our goal which is traditionally a student. You mentioned NSOs and NSO we're trying to move them forward, um, to a lot of institutions, especially regional ones NSO is the deposit, so it's the, the sign, you know, the commitment that the student is coming to the institution and so. To your point, that is very critical and important, and those are, those are things that we don't generally think about because we are just so um Immersed in our own tasks and in our own goals and getting the student through the journey despite uh all the communication that is coming out, hm, I'll certainly. So, I think those themes came up for a recent, a university I was recently working with. They were a very large public university, and they had been working on mapping the onboarding journey for first-year students, and then they said, oh, we should look at this for transfer students too. And they discovered something really surprising that they were really just replicating their first-year student communication plan, and then like adding in all of the extra info for transfer students. And so, They had already been trying to work on this, the first year, um, communication plan and first year GNE because it was so complicated. So adding extra transfer info about prior credits and learning experiences and answering all those typical transfer questions on top of the regular first-year information, was even more overwhelming. And so we were able To use process mapping to help them get to the bottom of how they could improve their uh student experience in the onboarding period, um, and help those transfer students with those more complex needs. So we ended up mapping out their, all the different emails and texts that they were sending to students during the, that like onboarding time period during new student orientation, and there were 19 units that were sending communications and over 400 specific communications that a student might receive. And so, Uh, yeah, working with that team was really insightful. They had a similar experience to you where they're like, whoa, this is way more complicated than we thought, um, but we were able to, to work through it together and they identified some issues and opportunities, like places they could standardize communications between colleges, uh, and the central unit that was sending communications. They identified some places where people didn't know who was doing what, so everyone was doing it, or no one was doing it, and so, and then had more uh. clarified like some accountability of like, OK, you'd be in charge of this, I'll be in charge of that, this is where we'll collaborate and both do it together. So overall, they're able to reduce uh redundancy and uh standardize their communications more in this space. So I was really proud of that team and I got feedback from them that they kind of just got a new perspective on the student experience, um, holistically, not just their unit. It helped them with cross-campus collaboration that carried over into other things that those, uh, key student success professionals need to collaborate on. And led to a whole host, uh, kicked off a whole host of that really like tangible practical changes, like, we're gonna have a temp like a brand guideline, a template so that students know this is the set of orientation emails they need to pay attention to, standard um timeline, um, some standardized processes for how they were gonna handle students that changed their major during the orientation period before they were like set in their uh academic unit. So, um, it was, it was really neat to see that the process mapping led to a lot of practical changes. It's one reason I love this framework. And I think, I think a big key lesson is, or a learned lesson, um, is that transfer students are not first-time freshmen with credit, right, and they shouldn't be treated, um, like that. OK, the advocacy side in me is going to come out. I think one of the biggest mistakes, and, and maybe you've seen this time, um, and time again through process mapping is just that the assumption, the Assumption that it's still a, uh, first-time student, um, with just credits and that they don't need anything else other than a few extra pieces of communication. Yeah, certainly, yeah, there are a lot of assumptions sometimes built into, uh, our, our processes. Um, one thing I see a lot is that, you know, the student population changes over time. You build a process for Uh, a lot of, you know, 18 year old traditional students, and then years later, you look at your process and say, or, uh, you look at your campus and say, that's not who we're serving today. Uh, our campus population is way more diverse and that we need to have our processes adapt accordingly. So it's kind of a constant process of a constant iteration of looking at processes. Is this working for us today? Is it working for our students and and our staff and how we're organized. So, um, I'm curious to also see, uh, what your experience has been with adult learners. Um, that's a really big population, um, for us now. There are a lot of, um, adults, um, throughout the, throughout the state in Texas, but throughout the nation with some credit and no degree. Um, There are adult learners who have been stagnant at their, at their, um, current careers trying to figure out how to advance and their only option is attainment of a bachelor's degree. So for a lot of reasons, there are a lot of, um, millions, actually, of Americans with credit and no degree, and that's, um, that's a population that we're trying to focus. On as well we're not just trying to engage traditional transfers anymore, we're looking beyond traditional transfers into populations that might be interested or seeking, um, to advance their education. So I'm curious to see if you have had any experience process mapping um with those populations and what the outcomes are. Yes, yeah, that is an area I've, I've seen universities working on, uh, for the exact reasons you specified. So, one was, uh, working with an access-focused public university that had a, a big online program, uh, that was very appealing to, uh, adult learners that were returning to school, um, especially those that were working at the same time. And so, when we worked together, they were, had kind of identified this problem that they were seeing a lot of uh students start the admissions process and um we're really excited and interested and then they just kind of never, never came, uh, and like never finished the process. And that's actually one of the kind of signs that the process might not be working is people, people aren't completing it, it's breaking somewhere in there, um, or there's a big delay somewhere in there. Um, and so when Um, we examined it a little bit, uh, more closely. We saw that really adult learners were not fitting well in the, uh, application process that they were using. So they had kind of a one size fits all application model from the Office of Admissions. Everybody fills out that same admissions application. If they want to be a student, here's your application. Uh, and that application included submitting transcripts from everywhere you've been. And, and, uh, even if it was many, many years ago, and, um, test scores and some short essays, and they had the same kind of onboarding and advising process for all students. And the friction was showing up for adult learners because um they were seeing a growth in the number of students that wanted to return to school, not for full degrees, but just to take a few courses, take a series, get a skill. Um, they had a big, um, kind of a computer science program. A lot of people were wanting to scale up in that area, and, uh, they were getting stuck in that one size fits all application program. So, we did a process mapping exercise, that was like very student-focused, that incorporated some student interviews, and mapping revealed that adult learners were getting stuck in that admissions process. They were giving up, they were, um, or it's causing delays, so they'd be starting, um, a semester or two later than they planned. And when we interviewed uh adult learners that persisted through that process and become students, they were wondering, why did I need to do all that? I, you know, my past coursework was from years ago and it's not even relevant to this, you know, I just wanted to take this series of computer science courses for my current employer that want me to skill up in this area. Um, so we ended up recommending a more streamlined process for these, I guess, casual adult learners, um, and we used that, the process map that we made to recommend what were some minimum, minimum application process steps to have. Uh, at each, um, place in the journey cause you still want to be supporting those students. The admissions process was very well thought out and very supportive, but it was, it was too much, um, for this particular need. It was designed for everyone when we really needed to look more closely at what would meet the needs of the, uh, more unique adult learners. And that comes with all the assumptions, right, assuming that um that that those people are available during business hours because for some reason we are still operating on traditional business hours let me tell you. Nothing stresses me out more than knowing that something is open from 8 to 5 and that I have to go figure out how to get it done in between meetings and my lunch and, you know, traffic and because you just have to go in person. Uh, it also, by the way, it makes me wonder when people, when people say like, you have to do it in person, I'm like, what did you do during COVID? Because COVID forced us to go virtual, you know, and be more flexible with documentation, even, even official documentation of any sort. So my, that question always lingers in my mind, like when people say, oh no, you can't do it online, that has to be in person, OK, what did you do during COVID, because we could not see each other, um. And then I, I'm gonna assume that the assumptions were also in the language, right? And assuming that those people, um, adult learners, um, know our systems, uh, our systems have changed a lot since the last time that they were at school, uh, acquiring transcripts, uh, is also a big one. And then once the students are in like technology, like if you use uh Kemva or Blackboard. Or any LMS, um, to do stuff like NSO, it just seems like the task is so large. And one of the things that we say in my office is, you give one student an opportunity to, you know, one barrier, and they're going to use that opportunity to not come to school, they're just going to be completely turned off, um, and we lose them. And, and gosh, that could not be more true. I've seen it time and time again. Uh, so I feel like this is where process mapping, um, is important, right, and it reassures all of the, um, it emphasizes all of those things, um, process mapping then seems like it reveals how the system was, again, unintentionally working against that population, and I, I keep saying unintentionally because And I'll, I'll, I'll let you give me some feedback on this, Alex. We don't intentionally create challenges for students. I, I, I, I mean, we don't sit there and say I'm gonna add 20 holds on a student to make it completely impossible, you know, for them to, for them to, um, sign up for school or enroll or see an academic advisor, um. So I say unintentionally, but I think that it forces us to, to really, again, go into, to assessment, assess why we're doing it and who it's easier for. Sometimes the work is on us and it's more work and it's a heavier lift, but isn't that the purpose of our role to lift that burden off of a student? Yeah, I completely agree. So, you, you have to strike a balance. You don't want to have so much friction in your process that students can't make it through or that they, it's very frustrating for them to do so cause that's gonna really disadvantage students that Um, you know, have, have a lot going on in their lives or any other challenges that they're experiencing, but you do need some process friction, you know, we don't, uh, it would not be fair or kind to just let every person who walked through the door, sign up for, uh, a class without even, you know, asking for their information or, um, you know, you mentioned account holds, you know, the intention of account holds is, hey, let's just do a check-in, meet with your advisor, get some extra support cause we see that maybe you're heading off track, um, it's, it's, it's a good intention, um. So making sure to strike the balance between, um, having enough steps and check-ins to be supportive, uh, but not with so many that ends up becoming a barrier. And, yeah, through really assessing your current state, drawing it out with a process map is what can help you see whether you have too much, too little, or, or just enough, uh, kind of support and friction, um, in your process. And so, so my question to you is, why is it necessary uh to continue assessing ourselves? Yeah, so I think the, the only thing constant has changed that, uh, um, you know, quote that you hear, uh, quite frequently and that it's, it's very true in this context as well at our institutions, so processes change over time, um, our students change, technology changes, you get new systems, and, uh, new ways of working, uh, maybe discovered during COVID and we're doing everything remotely, um, policies change, but, uh, I often see that the processes stay frozen. That they aren't, uh, aren't, aren't updated, uh, in, in that. So, you know, we have online students, but paper forms, you know, what, what's going on there, um, and it creates intentional barriers. So your, um, process improvement is a continuous improvement. It's not, you know, I fixed it once, it's done, it's good for the next 50 years. Uh, you wanna look at your processes consistently, when, especially whenever there are big changes like technology. Systems or changes in your student population, um, and to look at it from that student perspective.-- But change-- is hard, Alec you uncomfortable. Uh, I know. I'm, I'm a naturally risk averse person. I don't like to change either, um, but I really love the process improvement as a framework because it kind of walks you through change and, um, walks your team through change. So you're, these exercises often look like getting a, a group of people together that represent the different areas that be affected by change, often like your Um, it's helpful to include your frontline staff that really know the student experience well or maybe some mid-level managers who are kind of doing that coordination across your organization, um, getting those people together and having them Together, map the process, together identify the issues, and together, come up with ideas to improve the process, uh, because involving them in that change helps everyone to be able to adapt to it and to see how, why the change is needed, and how, uh, come up with ideas of how they can do it better together, rather than having a change kind of thrust upon them, uh, by, by someone else. It also helps you with your like analytical skills, right? It, it just, just really exercising those, um, I know it was impactful for my team at that time, I only, when we did process mapping, I only had an assistant director. Now I have an associate director and assistant director, and I, and I wish that you would have had her back then to involve her, um, because it just gives them an opportunity to, I, I kind of take a step back now in some of those process mapping meetings and just gives, gives. An opportunity to vocalize their perspectives of what we do, right? And just saying that out loud and hearing yourself talk about your own process and where you see um gaps and where you see opportunities for improvement and how it intertwines with another, um, another officer division, I think is just absolutely fascinating, but also, um, it makes them more confident in being to articulate what we do and why we do it. Completely. I once worked with, uh, on a project with uh improving communication and collaboration between a financial aid office and the bursar's office, and that was so fascinating because to students, both have to do with money. They have to do with, uh, what I'm, uh, getting, you know, the money I'm getting, um, from, um, to pick my education and the money I'm paying to the institution. And students were getting bounced back and forth between those two offices a bunch. And so when we got the uh representatives of those two offices together in the room, and they like mapped their processes and saw how many different things um moved in between their two offices, and uh they really saw, wow, like, oh, we need to better coordinate, it's gonna solve headaches in both our offices if we're able to, uh, clarify who's doing what and how, where students should go for each thing and like work much better together. Um, so that's, that's why it's neat to see, and it's really what motivates me to keep doing this work, um, is seeing that light bulb moment of people realizing how interconnected their work is and how they can work together to improve the experience for students. You reminded me of like this self-assessment moment that we had in the office, um, regarding policy, and, and when we would talk about policy, like we started asking ourselves, is this policy meant To fulfill our need or to make the student's life easier and 75% of those policies were just to make our life easier, you know, to fulfill something that we needed immediately, um, and we made a whole bunch of assumptions on that. So it's funny because we that kind of stays with you when you have those moments and so now when we build policies, we're like, OK, does this make the students experience easier or am I. Applying this because it makes my job easier and that's, that's, it really changes, it's life changing and it's life changing, you know, for students too who experience the institution in a different way. I was reading something, um, not too long ago that, that, uh, I think it was about the Ps, the three P's that students experience an institution through policy processes and practice. You know, they don't see loida when they walk in. They see the institution and so there has to be some cohesion in all the things that we do, and it has to feel seamless and it has to feel light and encouraging, and there's definitely a disconnect if, if there, if you know, somebody falls out of place or some, or we're trying to duplicate work unintentionally, which seems to be the word for this podcast unintentionally, um. And so, um, so yeah, that is, that is really cool, Alex, um, student-centered institutions don't just care about students, I think they design systems that are intentionally, um, working for them and in their favor. Mhm, yeah, certainly. And you bring a good point. Sometimes there are required steps that you have to have, like, you know, that's something that's required legally or, or, you know, federal financial aid or things like that, but, uh, making sure there's a balance of, um, you know, having those steps, but having them be well supported and, you know, sometimes changing the process makes uh solves headaches for, um, some groups and it makes more work for others, and so making sure we're not Um, putting lots of new work, um, on someone without, uh, taking a close look and being intentional about, um, where it's, you know, where we do want to spend our effort in a process. So, um, yeah, cause it's really process mapping, you know, you're looking at the student experience, but it's also a way to be making sure, you know, your staff, um, resources and time is being spent, uh, on the things that you wanna be spending it on too, so. You know we talked about um this earlier but the student looks differently and building processes and and um. Practices that um are relevant to the current student population is important. Transfer is not just transfer anymore, it's changing, right? Uh, it's, we're talking about credit mobility, learning mobility, um, acquiring credits from traditional ways and non-traditional ways, experiential learning, um, you know, all sorts of things, and so. Considering how, um, how this population is no longer just limited to transfer, what are some practical takeaways or advice that you would offer to leaders? Yeah, that's welcome my person. That's something, uh, I incorporate into the process mapping framework. So after you've mapped, just to get practical in case anyone wants to try that, try it after our conversation, uh, is after you map your process, um, one way you can look at what types of issues are happening in your process is to think about. Uh, uh, a student, and maybe one of those students that is newer to your institution, like say it's a student with a ton of uh credit for prior learning from different experiences or, you know, the military transcript, and, and look at your current state process and say, how will this work for This student with this complex history and kind of walk it through it and be like, oh, at this point, they're not gonna know what to do with the military transcript or that, they're gonna need to get an exception to, to this, this rule here, and uh that helps you get really tangible of um how you can shift your process to be more inclusive of all the different types of learners that are coming through our virtual and in-person doors these days. But, uh, yeah, so yeah, getting practical, um, for leaders, I'd recommend train your staff in, in process improvement, um, and encourage them to, to question, why do we do it this way? Um, is there a better way that we can do it? Um, and if you, um, think that all of your processes are perfect and are working well, I'd recommend talking to your frontline staff and talking to your students cause they are gonna know where the problems are. So, and can, uh, you know, I've really found that, you know, approaching it in a, hey, I'd love some ideas of how we can improve kind of way is, is very welcome, um, usually, um, from your-- some people say-- that, Alex, it's cringy. Everything's fine. Everything is perfect. And the frontline staff are like in the meeting and they're like, Oh wow, no, it's not. Also, by the way, uh, we should have some level of connectedness to students, OK? They really do bring us down to earth and they remind us why we're here. So, uh, if you are a leader who hardly sees students, go downstairs once in a while. Take a, take a student, uh, meeting from one of your frontline staff. It's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be wonderful and it'll definitely remind you of what we need to continually, um, reassess, um, our processes. Um, Alex, what would you, um, recommend for teams? Yeah, um, really, as you're working with your colleagues, think about what problem was this step designed to solve, and is that still necessary or has the need changed? Um, that can be as simple as steps in your own workflow, um, individually or steps in your, um, specific office that you're asking students to do, or maybe things, uh, in your cross-campus collaborations. So I do recommend, as you start thinking this way, you know, start small, look at changes you can make in your individual work and things that are kind of within your scope of control, um, and then expand out from there. You can do this on a lot of different levels. Thank you so much, Alex, for what you do for higher education, for your very creative thinking that I've experienced myself, um, for encouraging us to map out our processes and to, um, continue assessing, um, the things that we have set in place and unintentionally, by the way, um, and thank you so much for being a transformative part of our system. Fantastic. Yes, I love to talk about this topic, so welcome follow-ups from folks that are finding this topic interesting. Um, you can reach me on LinkedIn. I write about process improvement in higher ed, including lots of tips for doing process mapping yourself. So, uh, yeah, welcome further conversations and thank you so much for your time today. We will link your LinkedIn profile because I personally enjoy reading, um, all of your posts, Alex. So, We will, we'll make sure everybody goes out there and looks for you. Thank you so much for your time. All right, have a great day. Bye, everyone. If this conversation made you pause and think, we've always done it this way, good, because student-centered institutions aren't built on tradition alone, they're built on reflection, revision, and courage. If you're leading teams, ask yourself, when was the last time we mapped this process, and did we map it from the students' perspective or from ours? This is Tran T, where learning mobility meets practice, where transfer is more than a process, it's a promise, because learning doesn't stop and neither should opportunity. I'll see you next time.