Are We the Partner We Expect Them to Be?

In this episode of Transfer Tea, Loida sits down with Ashley to unpack a critical question emerging from research and practice: Are universities truly being the partners they expect community colleges to be? Drawing on insights from Loida’s dissertation, the conversation explores gaps in communication, policy clarity, and shared responsibility that impact transfer students. Together, they challenge traditional assumptions about the transfer pipeline and reframe partnership as a mutual, ongoing commitment. This episode calls on institutions to move beyond expectations—and toward action that better supports students on their transfer journey.

Host:

Dra. Loida González Utley

Director of Recruitment and Enrollment Services

Texas A&M University- Central Texas

Guest:

Ashley Lattimore, MBA

Director of Advising

Lone Star College

Transcript

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Hi, you're listening to Transferte, a podcast for the Agro community sponsored by ACR, the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. I am your host, Loida, and today we've got a freshly brewed episode just for you. There's something I've been with both as a practitioner and through my dissertation work. We've talked a lot in higher education about partnerships. We say we want strong relationships with our community colleges. We say we want them to send students our way and we expect that of them. But here's the question I keep coming back to. Are we actually being the partners that we expect them to be? In my research, I heard from community college professionals across Texas, people who are deeply committed to their students and to transfer, and that came through over and over again. It was this, there are gaps, gaps in communication, gaps in clarity, gaps in shared responsibility. So today's conversation is about flipping the lens. Not what community colleges need to do better, but what can we as universities need to examine in ourselves. And I just couldn't think of a better person to have this conversation with than Ashley. Hello, beautiful people. My name is Ashley Lattimore and I proudly serve as the director of advising for Lone Star College and it is such a delight to be here and be with you all today. Now, to give y'all some background context, Ashley and I have known each other but not known each other. So we, we don't know each other on a personal basis. But we know enough about each other. So I think when we did the math, I've probably seen Ashley for about 6 years of my 10-year career, uh, as a recruiter for transfer going into the community colleges. She was a coordinator back then and would ensure that universities came to her community colleges to, um, To inform students, right? Or to present them with options, and so, um, these past few years, we've watched each other grow professionally into now directors, so this is a director to director conversation. And I think we've learned a whole lot along the way, uh, you right, about like, what are, what are partnerships, what do they look like, and then how do we steer our staff to ensure that we, um, cultivate those partnerships, right, from the community college side and from the university side. Um, and so we often talk about partnerships a lot. And we have partnerships. Our university, like all universities, has a lot of partnerships with community colleges and community colleges have a lot of partnerships with the universities. But what does that actually look like in practice, Ashley? Oh, that's a broad question. Because I think what has taken place is that the first step is to get the students to go to school. So of course, we have a lot of students who serve as first generation students, so they don't have the surroundings of knowing this is the proper way, this is the proper step. So just as community as a whole, whether it's university or at the community level, we all have. To stand out differently. And when I say that, that means how can I make you feel like this is where you belong. So of course, providing those resources, providing opportunity and surrounding them with like-mind-minded students to understand this is the community that can help me along the way and guide me with the right tools and help me not only identify what goal and career. Or educational pathway I want to do as well as identifying their own identity as who I am as an individual. So that starts at the basis first and then once we get to the transition of getting them acclimated into a routine of learning and just enjoying the community services of what the colleges have to offer, then we can start the Branch of connecting with the university to say, hey, your role doesn't stop here, it continues forward and I think that's the transition we're trying to develop now. Yeah, and there's a play in expectation versus reality though, so right, that you, you talked about a very linear, very perfect scenario, but then there are gaps in between that we should We should fail, but we expect community colleges to, uh, fail. So community colleges are doing awesome things like early advising and like early, early advising, right Ashley, do y'all, do y'all do like dual credit students? Yes, we do. Yeah, so like early, early advising, early, early seed planting. Nowadays we're talking to students about early college high school and dual enrollment in middle school because they have to make decisions by the time they come to high school. So seed planting, and then they do cool things like the ones that Ashley, uh, continues to do have transfer workshops, but I, I feel like there's still, there's still gaps, like there's still some. Pieces of clarity that um need to come to fruition. So, for example, how do you know what student is good for what institution? Well, it also depends, it depends on what they want to pursue. I know every school is known for certain things, for example, like Sam Houston. Everybody knows they're known for criminal justice. So you know that's a targeted area that a lot of students identify with if they were wanting to pursue that. Of course, nursing being Prairie View A&M University or University of Houston, so some of those are common schools that they want to go to. But then when we have the individuals that come to campus like you all that can kind of shares, this is what we have to offer. It opens up a light to say, hey, I didn't know that I could go beyond just the spectrum of just being in the Houston local area. It's other areas that I can pursue and identify with as well. But I feel like that's not only the gap that we're having with that. I feel that we are missing the nutrients. When I say nutrients, that is just feeding into the students whether it is actual food because we do have communities of students that are lacking in the food category and they need that or even transportation. We don't have many students that are off of the bus line. They need that, that is their resource to get around the area. So it's like, OK, how can I get to and from a school because Some students don't have the opportunity to live on campus if they're not receiving the full ride. So of course, what's the next thing, the transportation. So we have to get them there and in order to do that, how can we do that? Is universities partnering with the bus line that we do have here or connecting the students with uh uh passes that help them to get the transportation? Are we connecting with like Uber and Lyft, different things like that. That give the students a discount to get to the location. Do the universities have a branch center that is closer to them that they can get to to take some of the classes that they need to have, or are they partnering, partnering with even like Lone Star College? We have multiple partnerships with universities where the students can take the university classes at a local Lone Star campus, and that is beneficial as well and. The reason why I know that is because I am actually a student who did the same. So, and I'll give an example. It was called joint enrollment. At the time, I was attending the University of Houston downtown and I transitioned from graduating from Lone Star College to University of Houston downtown, but at night, it was hard to get downtown, leaving from work, trying to work at 9 to 5, beating Houston traffic, and if anyone knows, it's An hour to get to Houston from Houston because there's so much traffic here, but of course you're trying to get downtown, but when they opened the door for saying, hey, you can take some university classes at your local Lone Star campus, that was a lifesaver for me and that was so flexible for me to be able to do that, including for the professors. I know that may have been easier for them because they may have lived closer to a Lone Star campus. versus the university campus. So it worked on both sides for everyone and I still got to experience a university feel because I was surrounded by like-minded students in my class who was trying to achieve the same goal and we had the university resources. Regardless if we were at the Lone Star campus, they still provided us the access we needed to make sure that we were remain remaining successful. Yeah, you bring up, uh, like you're speaking to my heart, you bring up some really good points here, like, uh, you know, community colleges don't just need universities to go slap some brochures at their tables, right? And, and the nice cute swag that we get, uh, for you all and we take it to you, you need to know how we are fulfilling students' needs in every way. Um, and, and those are some valid, uh, questions, um, whenever, uh, in, in doing a lot of reading about, uh, you know, student financial assistance, for example, um, when students say I don't know if I can afford school, they generally don't mean the cost of tuition, they mean I don't understand. How the current schedule that you're presenting me with is going to financially fit into my budget or familial responsibilities. And there are some sacrifices in between that have to take place so that a student can complete with the available course. right? And so, so that boils down to finances and not necessarily tuition finances, but the, the entirety, a holistic approach of what is my financial, uh, situation looks like. And, and, you know, and there's other components like the one you mentioned was, was genius transport transportation. We don't. I know like at regional institutions, um, because we tend to live in smaller cities, that's not usually a, a conversation or a point that we bring up to uh the community colleges, but it's fair. How are students going to get to campus? Is this an online program? Is this a hybrid program? Is this an evening program? Um, all of those pieces seem to be the gaps that we need to share with you. And if you've never been to our campus, so you're a UFH student. You see, you know a lot of stuff about UFH, but you, I can't expect you to know stuff about A&M Central Texas or A&M whatever or UT whatever because you've never been there. And so unless I bring that to you, how else are you supposed to know? How is your staff supposed to know? Correct. And of course that starts off with conducting the information sessions. So first things first, you have to establish that collaboration, talking with the advisors because the advisors are the first point of contact the students encounter with. So once we do that connection and say, hey, this is something that we have to offer from our university that you can showcase and share with your students. Once that is done, then we'll be able to identify the programs or cer certifications, and certificates that the students can pursue with you all. Once that transpires, then we will have what is called a preview day where it allows you guys to come physically on the campus and when we do that, it's not just the brochures on a table, it's setting up multiple departments of education or business or medical or anything like that that allows the students to talk one on one with that representative to say, hey, I'm interested in this college of business and how can I get more information in depth on my next steps on what to pursue. Giving the breakdown, sharing that with our students, and of course, Giving scholarships. Who does not love free money? Every student loves free money, but of course, we wanna make sure they graduate to pursue that as well cause we want them to be core complete here with Lone Star and transition forward. So of course, uh, giving them those privileges to say, hey, what you did was commendable and we want to reward you for that by assisting you with continuing your education. And we're doing so, we get those scholarships and even then prior to the scholarship, offering the campus tours, come and pick us up so we can come on over there to come see your location and like you've shared, a lot of students don't know because they've never seen and of course if they come there, they can just open a floodgate of opportunities for them to connect with various people, connect with. Different departments, networking, just giving, establishing that communication and that community early on to say when I do transition, I already know where I want to go and then collaborating with our career and transfer department who does excellent work by making sure those students are taking some of the classes that may be required for the university level and they're taking them here as. Star and satisfying their requirements for our degree as well. So it's a lot of moving tracks that takes place, but it all blends together and I think that's where if we finalize that piece of just setting up the outline to break it down easier for our students, we can say your role doesn't stop here. This is how we do the next steps. I think what you're saying is like it takes more than a pathway, right? Like a true pathway is not coursework listed, it's answering all the questions that students have. Um, I want to kind of touch a little bit on inconsistent policy interpretation. Is that something I know, but you know, keeping track of what the, what the admission requirements are for every institution, what the exceptions are for every institution, when they should commit, um, what, what rules do they have? Some have essays, um, some have limited transfer, transfer seats. So how do you, um, handle all of that and help to align or clear up the policy interpretation. So we have to identify everyone's opening date to apply. That's a lot in itself because everyone is different. Every university is different on the date of acceptance. So we have to make sure we align with those. And of course, luckily our university representatives that we are partnered with now currently, they do keep us abreast to say this is the date. And then of course understanding the opening date and the deadline because Between the two, like you shared, there are protocols that the students need to complete in order to make sure they beat the deadline to submitting their applications, such as, like you said, the letters that they need to complete or any other additional applications or even the coursework that might need to be uh completed because they may have missed that one class that they need to enroll in. So being able to identify that, that starts off at the beginning. Of just identifying, OK, when are the opening dates, let's do this first, and sharing that with our students and we try to do that very early on. We have a calendar that we kind of pass out to the students to say, these are some of the common schools that we have around here to let you know, OK, this is the deadline going, going around and then social media is our best friend and why not use it, use it to the best of your ability because that showcase, we see our students like this all day. Exactly. They're home, so of course, meet them where they stand. Go go to them because sometimes they're not gonna come to us unless they just absolutely need us, but we go to them by just having it ready for them to say this is what's going on, this is who is connecting, and then learning the scholarships because those are deadlines as well, and we need to make sure that we have that opportunity for our students to have choices rather than saying this is what you need to do. No, I want you to explore all options so you can identify where you want to go or who you need to connect with early on. And we don't wanna do that the last semester of school. Better yet, we wanna do it your very first semester of school because that's where it begins to know in order for me to set up my pathway, I need to know what is my true end goal, and it's OK if they change their minds, but at least we can set you up with a foundation to begin with. That's awesome, and yes, 100% true. Um, now in terms of partnerships because we keep saying partnership, partnership, partnership, there is a partnership tension that is happening. Uh, universities often have this expectation, right? We want community colleges to have clean transcripts, and we want them to be fast, and we want to be precise, and we want you to confer quickly so that way we can, uh, you know, uh, articulate quickly. We want, we have an expectation of transfer ready students, so we, uh, expect that you prepare and you identify when the student is ready for transfer. Um, we have this expectation, um, that the intent should be clear, that students should know exactly where they fit, and, um, what institution they fit best in and when and how, and that they should have their major already selected because that's what community college advisors are supposed to do. And we have this expectation that community colleges should assist students with completed applications. That, that those are some of the expectations that universities have, but community colleges have needs to fulfill those expectations. They need clear program pathways. They need consistent policy interpretation. Um, they need early engagement at, like you said, we can't just show up and expect application. We need to nurture the students' knowledge, uh, in the university, and we need access to people, not just websites. Because we do websites a lot, so I wanted to ask, where do you think universities unintentionally, because again, I've said this before in the podcast, nobody in education wants people to fail. We don't want students to fail. We don't want each other to fail, but there are some unintentional barriers with these expectations with this partnership tension. So where do you think universities unintentionally create barriers? Well, one, we know a lot of degrees change between 2 to 5 years. With that. It's important to connect with the people that you already know as far as as far as community level, say, hey, this is the changes that have taken place. Even within Lone Star, we have our own transitions of what we do with our degrees and stuff, so we have to conduct information sessions to update the catalog or share what new degree is coming out or different things like that. So I feel that that's where we're having the downfall is updating. Needing our connectors to say this is what is transitioning because if a student was looking at an old catalog that you guys no longer offer that can actually be a stumbling block for them and they could have taken a class that they no longer needed for the new catalog that they're looking at and it can just create a chaos or they may have to do another uh semester because additional classes were added. And they were not made aware of that. So that's the first thing. It's just connecting with us to tell us this is what the updates have occurred within our college or within our department to make sure we're abreast to share correct information. And then of course updating the website like you said, sometimes those websites are not always accurate and when I say that, meaning yes with the catalog and degree plan. But also with who to connect with. We understand people grow, people transition, but of course that information needs to be updated as well. Now I will say I have observed on some universities is that it is no point of contact when we're looking at a department to communicate with, and it's like, OK, so who do we refer our students to talk to if they're looking at the College of Business and the College of Businesses only gives You the information about the degree, but if I need to talk to someone to know a little bit more in-depth, who is that point of contact, it's not listed, it's not a directive for it to go. Sometimes, yes, there is a general department email and that helps sometimes, it does, but I do feel that that needs to be a transition to happen to say we have this coordinator or this director of the department or dean or whoever to Help the students connect with the right person or the right advisor on the university level. So I do feel that could be a barrier with who is the next person they should communicate with in regards to transition because yes, the recruiter does their job with talking to us and sharing all the information, but then when it goes to it being in depth with the college, that's the next transition we need to identify is who is that next person in command. And, and nothing can replace a person. Like no level of technology or artificial intelligence will ever be able to fulfill the just personalized need to connect with somebody. Also, those connections make us better at reading students' barriers and getting into their comfort level so that we can continue to assist them. So I really appreciate that. Um, in your opinion, what are we asking of community colleges that we're not reciprocating? You're asking us to send you students, but you're not asking, you're not giving us opportunities to give you students. That's the issue at hand. We hear you want us, you want us, you want us. Great. But what are you giving in return to say, this is the layout of the land, this is the red carpet we have to give, and I understand the carpet may not always be red, it might be pink someday because depending on what it is for the students, but we have to be able to give something that is not already offered here. And when I say here at Lone Star, we offer over 200 programs and certifications. We also are offering bachelor's degree. And are transitioning now to offer another degree in the fall. So it's like, OK, we have these opportunities here on our side of the house that's opening the doors for the students. What makes the university so different to say this is the way you need to go if you're not already receiving it in your local community itself. So that's another broadcast to say, get it out, get your name out, get your word out, establish a connection with our students. Yes, a lot of people, they hide behind the computer a lot. Guess what? You need to be in the forefront to talk with them, walk with them, go by, check on them. Hey, I remember you at that transfer affair. Did you ever connect with that advisor that I gave you the information about? No problem. Here's my card, give me a call and we can talk it through. Establishing those connections, that's what the issue is. It's, yes, we're surrounded by social media and technology, but the students need. Someone to connect with in person or just even having that go to person because guess what, they may not remember who you are as far as your name, they may not remember the exact thing that they last talked about you, but they remember how you treated them and how they received and the energy was done and they'll say, hey, when I went to this college there or when I went to this, uh, college tour, they showed me this, I felt welcome. I felt I love, they shared this information with me, they gave me this resources here and then they showed me this is my next steps on what I can do to help better my, my pathway. So just connecting that establishment right there can just open so many doors for not only us as the community college but for you guys as well. So I feel like we gotta bridge that gap just with us first. We can't give to our students if we don't know what to give. You hit that. It was like a target, like a dart. I'm sorry. No, this is great. Like, like this is great because, because my next question asks, uh, asks something very important. We talk philosophically about what partners should look like, right? We do this cool thing where we sign MOUs and MOAs and we do this press release that says how students are just gonna seamlessly come from one institution to another. We do all these great things philosophically. Um, in theory, we are generally good at creating MOUs and getting them signed. But what do those actually look like operationally? So, in your point of view, what is a true partnership? If you could design a true partnership where a community college was receiving what they need and a university was doing what they needed to do, uh, to, to keep that connection with the community college so that students could truly seamlessly transfer, what would that look like? I would say having a university representative housed at a campus. That's the first step. We can do that. You can have a rotating schedule. We get it like for your location. They may not be able to be here all day every day, but maybe Tuesdays and Thursdays is the day that they are housed on the campus to be and we can have one of our advising officers ready and available or in our transfer center for them to come and talk with our students, lay out any and everything that they need. Complete such as like an application or even identifying a scholarship that aligns with the degree that they can uh do. Starting from that point there, just starting coming to us and be planted here, plant your seed in the area where you want to grow. You can't do that if you're far away. Be present, be local, and of course we know. That many people, they go around and they just do the table recruiting. No table recruiting, be assert, stand up and be at that location to say on this day, I'm here for this time to this time and we can work out and plan your schedule. We can do your applications, we can do anything that helps you transition from Lone Star to the University of your choice. I have 2 more questions and I think they're gonna be a little bit scandalous, but so here we go. If a university wanted to do better starting tomorrow. What is step one? Like if somebody just said, hey Ashley, we want more transfer students from you, we are gonna do whatever it takes to get more students from your campus. So I would say it would be a question. And the first question would be, what can you offer our students that we don't already offer? That's a loaded question, and you mean that academically and in and in terms of service everywhere, academically, financially, even with the resources, even with the food, even with the transportation, everything, because if we currently offer it here, what makes your university so better to say that that's what you need to do. How do you stand out to be different from any other university as well, but let alone how do you, how are you different from Lone Star College that makes a difference in a student's in, in life? Because we're trying to move from impression to impact and that's currently what Lone Star is doing now. They're building bridges with our students now. So how is the university gonna continue that bridge with our students from transitioning here? So that would be my first thing is asking you what can you do to make it be different from what they're already receiving now. You know, my thought goes to maybe the question, the real question is How are you aligned as a continuation of of Lone Star College because-- that-- is going to be my second thing because if you are offering, you know, these connections, these resources, this, this support, emotional support, financial support, you know, if you are excelling, and by the way, go follow Lone Star College on LinkedIn, they are doing some incredible stuff in the Houston area and beyond. Um, there's so much momentum. Like you're definitely aligning. So maybe the question is, how can you as a university be a continuation of the environment that the students are accustomed to at Lone Star College. What's going to be my next one is that how can you continue what they've already established and developed here and continue that on forward so you hit it on the nail for me as well. I just look, we're in sync. I was just like I know where she's going with this, and we, we have like a string attached to each other's heart professionally, uh, because I mean we, we're chasing the same thing. Um, what is, what is, what is one thing that you wish we understood? How our students process things. And when I say that because we think that every student right when they graduate college, they are university-ready, and they're not. A lot of students need variations of things and this is new. It is very new to the students. So all of them are not grad-ready. And we have to transition them. We have to give them breaks. So I wish that that could be established, giving breaks to them and yeah, we may have to hold their hand a little while longer because that, like I shared before, a lot of them are first-generation students, so they just don't know which way to go because in high school, they had the counselors and the teachers to kind of do everything for them and prepare them and prep, but then once they Graduate, it's like you're in a world and it's bigger than what you can consume. So how can we help you just navigate through it? And I feel like that's where we're falling off with our students on the university side to say, hey, it's OK, we can hold your hand a little while longer rather than saying we know you already have it, you already got it, let's get to it because we don't want them to be in a position where they sink or swim and we don't want to fail them early. On with transitioning into college, even at Lone Star, we have to hold their hand just a little while longer to say, hey, this is the way that you should go. This is the resources that you have. And yes, eventually they will grow and they will blossom, but we have to get them to that point first. So I feel that if we can do that, you guys can do that as well. So just giving them grace and have mercy for them to say we understand because some like. Myself, I didn't have the opportunity to be at a university and live the college dream of staying in a dorm and living the life, you know, I had to do it through my friends, but I had the real-life reality of working the 9 to 5, taking some classes online, taking some classes at night

from 6:00 p.m. to 10: 32:14

00 p.m. and then still having to come home to do homework, you know, those things, that's real-life examples for our students. So I feel like if the Universities can meet them where they stand with that by providing some things even in the evening. We know a lot of times we do stuff in the morning or in the daytime because that's the hours of operations, but we have more online students and it's growing rapidly. So how can you provide those resources to be that online class or representation of a college to say that we have this and this is something that you can really be successful in what you are doing. You are so right. I just had a conversation with my husband yesterday. He's an adult learner, and he, he said, hey, there's somebody in my class, in my eight week class. They're an adult learner, and they're about to drop out because they don't understand the LMS. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, like, you know, and it's an, it's an 8 week class, it's going so fast, it's online, it's flexible for the adult learner, but it's, it's so fast, and those are some of the just one example of the many, many small gaps that exist that are real to students. I mean, I, I, I've, I've heard often adult learners in my own classroom and, and, and students we serve at community colleges say, hey, technology is killing me. Just like trying to understand Blackboard is a reason enough for me to drop out of school cause I don't remember this type of learning. And so I think we need to just kind of take a step back and be cognizant that those things are happening. They are real barriers, and they are not barriers that you're gonna see on your enrollment funnel. It's not gonna be that they didn't get an academic advising appointment or that they didn't complete new student orientation or that they didn't accept their aid. It's gonna be those underlying barriers that unfortunately. Comprehending the process. I know we speak and articulate ourselves on an educational level, but sometimes we have to break it down and just do simple communication because that's why you hear a lot of students don't wanna do an email. They want to pick up the phone to talk to somebody to truly understand what is it that I need to do because the website can have lengthy information and all they need is just some bullets. Points to get them to the next steps of what they need to identify with. And just like we shared, having that personable connection with the students, talking with them through it and just guiding them along the way, it makes a big difference. We've transitioned from the COVID world of doing things online. People are now getting back to doing personal things and having that one on one connection again. Yeah. Yep. OK. So damn, we talked a whole lot, right? So, In a nutshell, transfer is not a handoff. It's a shared journey, right? We're doing this together. Um, a partnership should never be transactional, that actually doesn't even go together. A partnership is relational, highly relational, um, and continuous, so it doesn't have an end. Um, and truthfully, if we're being honest, um, It should be co-owned. This is a, this is a transfer experience, and it should not be that the community college owns it or that universities own it. We should see this as, which is the definition of a true partnership, we should co-own this entire experience. And if we, if we all have a stake in it and some shared responsibility, I think we'll be able to see what gaps are missing and be able to fill those together. Yeah, 100% agree. Ashley, any last thoughts? I would just say universities, if you are listening, connect with your people now while you have the opportunity and don't wait till the end when you're trying to get them to be gra grad ready. Do it in the beginning. Connect with us early on. Showcase how you can say we're starting from the bottom, now we're here and we wanna continue it to grow together. Let's do it together. Begin that in, what's the word, entanglement. Start entanglement. Yes, let's get into an entanglement together. Yes, let's start it early and start them at the beginning when they first begin because we know that students have the first year experience class where they start to identify some things. So start with them early on. Continue to give grace. Connect with your partners and university levels as far as the community. Know your community of students where you're trying to target, and we know that that's. All students, but if you're going to do that, be a vessel in all categories to make sure you're giving grace and you're being an impressionable team to move from impression to impacting lives, to continue what they have already started. That's correct. Thank you so much, Ashley, for your wisdom, for your energy, for all your thoughts, and we are actually gonna put this into play. So Ashley and I will be seeing each other. Uh, next month because it is important that her team knows my team and that we show up for each other. So don't just think we're just blabbering on this podcast. We're actually going to do this, what we say. So thank you, Ashley, for being on the podcast and for the opportunity to come see you. It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me. This conversation is a reminder that transfer isn't just about movement, it's about alignment, alignment in expectations, alignment in communication, and most importantly, alignment in responsibility. If we want stronger transfer outcomes, we can't just ask our partners to do more, we have to show up differently too. This is transferee where learning mobility meets practice, where transfer is more than a process, it's a promise because learning doesn't stop and neither should opportunity.