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your normal Saturday routine. So thank you for taking time to be here and those of you who are married, most of you are with your wives as well and your kids. And so thank you for the investment.

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I just pray the Lord will, you know, have something for you to take home that will be helpful. And from him, I don't, it's irrelevant that it's from me, you know, but it's from him. That's what matters from the Lord. So may that be the case. So in this session with you, I thought in particular about the role that fathers have in discipling their own children. And so the title for this one is, you get your sheet, you'll see, is Principles for Theologically Disciplesing Our Children and Youth. So I mean, this can be applied to Sunday school teachers and youth workers and that sort of thing as well, but it has a particular application, I think, to dads, whose responsibility, again, Ephesians 6, 4, fathers do not exasperate your children, but raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. So there is a particular focus from scripture that says to dads, the spiritual growth of your children needs to be a primary goal that you have as their father. And so you'll see as we work through this that there are just some categories that I want to think about with you. I'm not saying everything on any of these categories that could be said, but just some kind of sample ideas that would be helpful. So Roman numeral one, holistic approach to theological preparation for discipling our children, there is a principle at work that God intends the truth that He gives us to impact the whole of our lives. So the point there is simply this, that He doesn't want the truth that He gives us just to reside in our minds, but He wants that truth to impact our hearts and impact our hands. I'm going to talk much more about this in the Sunday school session tomorrow, but it's meant to be holistic in the sense that the lives of our children holistically, it's not just that they can spout memorized verses. I mean, that's great, but do those memorized verses become something that is precious and dear to them, that they own the truth of those, and they want to apply it in the way they live. So it's that holistic idea of what we want to try to bring about with our children. So as fathers, we must seek to be used by God in seeing every aspect of our children's spiritual lives cultivated and nourished so that they can grow to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord, and then grow to become more and more like Christ.

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Okay, so holistic discipling of our children, yes, we want their minds to know more of God's word and so on, but we want their hearts to embrace the beauty and the glory of that, and we want their wills to choose to act that out. And so how can we help with that? So these three categories that follow under Roman New Rules 2, 3, and 4, then follow kind of an order beginning with assisting the preparation of our children, the theological preparation, which really has much to do with the content of the Christian faith. What is that Christian faith that we want them to learn and to embrace? So some principles that relate to that, and then we'll look at assisting theological formation. So how do they grow in becoming the kinds of Christians who embrace and embody the truth of that Christian faith, and what does that look like in their own lives? So some principles that relate to that, and then how do they express that in their own lives to others?

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Principles, biblical principles that relate to the expression of that truth that has taken root in their own lives. Okay, so back to Roman New Rule 2, assisting theological preparation, the content of the Christian faith, three pairings of ideas that I want us to consider here that help with that. One is word and spirit. Word and spirit. That word and spirit always go together in the way God does His work, in that the word of God and the Spirit of God are in tandem. They go together in accomplishing the work in us that He wants to see done. So the word, I mean probably the strongest passage that emphasizes the power of the Word and the impact it could have on our lives and of course on our children is 2 Timothy 3 16 and 17, where Paul says that all scripture is God-breathed. You know that word in Greek uses theos, the word for God, and numa, the word for spirit, but it can also be translated as breath or wind, that term. And Paul makes a new term.

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I mean it's not used anywhere else in the New Testament or in extant literature, Greek literature. All scripture is theop-nustos, theos and numa brought together.

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And the way it's oftentimes translated is God-breathed. Well that's true. It is breathed out by God, but it also is the idea of the Spirit. The Spirit brings this truth to the writings of Scripture.

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The Spirit is the one who does it. Of course that fits exactly with what Peter says in 2 Peter 1.

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Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God, right? So indeed, Scripture is the result of the work of the Spirit in bringing about that word. So back to 2 Timothy 3, all scripture is God-breathed or breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching. Think of what it says here, for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training and righteousness, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for, are you ready for this? Every good work. Wow, wow, what a claim that is.

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So of all the books that there are that may be helpful to the good works that God calls us to do, this one trumps all of them, doesn't it, right? Because that all scripture is given to us from God, breathed out by God, by His Spirit, and is profitable for teaching, reproof, for correction, training and righteousness, that the man of God, our children as they grow, might be equipped for every good work that God has for us. So indeed, there is that sufficiency, isn't there, in scripture, and the power that there is in scripture. There is no other book like it.

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It is the only book that we know is the self-revelation of God and is perfect, inerrant, infallible, and fully authoritative. So we want our kids to have growing understanding of that word. This, just in terms of their preparation for living as Christians, the more we can help them know the Word of God, the better off they're going to be.

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Now, when they're little, I mean, you realize this is kind of an odd thing, isn't it? You're teaching a lot of the Word of God to unbelieving children. You think, well, you know, they're not believers yet. So here's the thing, though, is that as they come to faith, by God's grace, we pray that will take place. Then they have this reservoir of the Word that has been packed into their minds that they have access to. It's like setting aside books in a library, you know, and then when they become readers, look at all that's there that they can have access to.

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It's sort of like that. So you want to really work hard at cultivating their minds to know the Word of God. Bible memorization is one, of course, very important part of that, but also the truths of the Bible, you know, the book that I wrote that came out of my experience of teaching theology to my own two girls. Owen mentioned it last night, Big Truths for Young Hearts.

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I wrote just because I wanted to help dance. I mean, I know it's been used broader than that, but in terms of my target audience, as I wrote that, was dance. I want you to have the joy of walking your children through the most glorious truths of the Christian faith and help them grow in their understanding of that. So the Word of God is so important, but the Spirit as well.

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So 1 Corinthians 2, 14 and 15, Paul talks in that passage about the role of the Spirit in opening our minds to understand the truth that he's given. So verse 14, he says, a natural man that this is the NASB. So your translation makes us say something different in 1 Corinthians 2, 14.

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This is the person who does not have the Spirit, so he's an unsaved person, does not accept the things of the Spirit of God for their foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them because they're spiritually appraised, but he who is spiritual, that is, the person who has the Holy Spirit appraises all things, yet he himself is not appraised by anyone.

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So Paul's point is we all need the Spirit in order to see the truth and not be like the person in verse 14 who thinks it's foolish, who doesn't understand them, doesn't accept them, right?

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So instead of being like that person in verse 14, the person without the Spirit, as you come to Christ and the Spirit is given to you as a gift, among the many things the Spirit does enables you to begin understanding truth you could not comprehend before, or if you comprehended it, you thought it was ridiculous. You rejected it. And some of you probably have testimonies that would verify that, you know, that you came to Christ later in, you know, in at a time in life when you had questioned many, many things about the Christian faith, but then the Lord brought you, and now you see, boy, now you get it, but you didn't get it before. That's the work of the Spirit to do that. So Spirit and Word, the Word given, but the Spirit opening eyes to see the glory of that truth is so important. Now, we don't have control over when that happens in the lives of our children, but what we can do is teach them and prepare them for that by teaching the Word, even helping them understand that you won't see the beauty and the glory and feel the weight of these truths until the Spirit of God comes into your life and begins to unpack for you how glorious this is. Then you will begin to see it more. And so help them see that and anticipate that and long for it. So Word and Spirit needed for growth to become a Christian and then growth in the Christian life. Second thing, second thing in terms of preparing our children is to recognize the importance not only of presenting to them the truth, but also warning them about things that are not true. And the passage that I want to point to here is in the book of Titus. Now, this doesn't, it isn't applied to fathers in a direct way, but I think the implication is to fathers as well who are responsible for the training of their children, this is a passage that actually is one of the qualifications of an elder or an overseer in the church. And Titus says that they must be people. These are men. If they're qualified to be an elder or an overseer, they need to hold fast the faithful Word. So they need to be those who know that Word and are and have embraced it and are committed to it. They need to hold fast the faithful Word, which is in accordance with the teaching that I take it that's the teaching of the apostles.

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So that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

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You hear that? So really pastors owe it to their congregations to instructed sound doctrine. Yes, but also warned them about trends and movements and ideas and influences that come from the culture that are harmful to the Christian faith. Well, so I mean, I want you to know I understand this is this is a command given about elders, but I think it applies to fathers as well in the sense that we have that responsibility with our own kids kind of as pastoring our children.

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I think that's a legitimate way shepherding them as they grow up to be those who yes, who teach them the truth instruct them in the faith once for all given to the saints help them grow in that, but also warn them about things that are that are not right. So I think rather than especially as they are getting older rather than isolating them from things that are going on out there in the culture. Instead, you make them aware of some things some of those things that are going on carefully, you know, in ways that are appropriate age appropriate and the like, but then help them know God's response to that why that is a problem why that cannot be accepted. And so that when they you know leave the home and they're out there the word it's not like wow we had no idea that there were all these things out there that we're now facing faith have them face those things with you.

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So you can help them navigate you know how to respond to these things that are taking place.

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I mean all this stuff with a gender and sexuality I mean in one sense you just want to shield your kids from all of that don't you and there's something right about that certainly when they're little children, but as they get bigger you know boy it's important to talk with these things talk about these things with them so they they can learn how to deal with these realities you can't avoid in the culture that we're a part of and in other other things not just the gender sexuality type things but other aspects of the cultural worldview out there that is just hostile to the Christian faith. Acquaint them about these things and equip them for how to respond so truth and error teach them the truth but also teach them how to respond to the error that is present and influential in their cultural lives. And then third teaching and learning here's a another statement from the apostle Paul just a page or two back in your bible 2nd Timothy 2 2 the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. So I think there's a sense in which we should view our own children as the front line teachers you know of the next generation where we have learned we have taken to heart you know the things which you have heard from me so we have taken to heart what we have learned from the scriptures from our pastors from from from our own study and so on so we've been impacted by that but we then take it teach others also well top of the list for a father is going to be his own kids right that's our primary responsibility is our own children so teach others also that's our children that's got to be part of who the others are and we teach them so that they then can be equipped to take it to others you know so I I love stories when I hear stories of children who have learned from their parents and then go to school and share these things you know with their friends and classmates and the like so you see the process continuing and that's really such a great thing so that means we as as fathers need to be learners learning the faith we you know I don't know what your own lifestyle is like what your own practice is like but I would encourage you if you're not readers to grow in becoming readers because there is so much good that can instruct you and strengthen you and inspire you and and motivate you I mean some fair boy we live in a time with some really wonderful resources and your your church would know what those are you know you can talk to people who would know some very good things to to read to just so you can become somebody who has heard the things you know from others and you've learned yourself and that equips you better to be able to pass things on to your children so you be a learner as much as your child is a learner as you teach them so may god help us to be both learners and teachers in the process much more could be said I have no doubt about it but I want to move on to the next area here not only the content of the Christian faith preparing them in in their Christian life but now that their character as young people who come to know the Lord what what should their character look like how should it be formed and here are again some aspects that I think are part of that the character of a Christian and certainly what your children should grow into the first one is one that Owen has mentioned a number of times kind of wrap the conference around this theme of grace and truth and look at John 1 14 with me for just a moment if you wouldn't mind turning there it's very interesting that that when John talks about the coming of the eternal son you know in the beginning in the beginning was the word the word was with God the word was God verse 14 the word became flesh when he talks about the eternal son of the father the eternal word who takes on human nature one of the things he says about him is that he is full of grace and truth right so the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth and you you know that this isn't just a passing thought for John to just you know kind of pick randomly grace and truth he could have said you know joy and peace you know full of joy and peace it would have been just just as well no you know that there's something about grace and truth because he mentions it again so you keep reading you know and you come verse 16 for of the fullness of his fullness we have all received grace upon grace for the law was given through Moses grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ so there's something about this that is really significant and when you look back at the old remember what he said in verse 14 we saw his glory glory as of the only begotten of the father in other words he looked just like his dad that's a colloquial way of putting it right he was just like his father full of grace and truth well that begs the question does the old testament teach about God as full of grace and truth and indeed it does look back with me for just a moment at Exodus chapter 32 I'm sorry chapter 34 chapter 34 Moses is with the Lord on Mount Sinai and the Lord passed in front of him at verse 6 Exodus 34 verse 6 the Lord passed in front of Moses and proclaimed Yahweh Yahweh Elohim the Lord the Lord God compassionate and gracious slow to anger and full of abounding in steadfast love and truth it's chesed v'emet in Hebrew and guess what the Hebrew translation of John 14 is chesed v'emet so John 114 and this statement in Exodus 34 are parallel ways in Hebrew in Greek respectively of saying the same thing and that's repeated many times there there are oh I'm guessing 18 or 20 instances in the old testament where it says that God is full of steadfast love and truth and so here's the thing that is just really remarkable about Jesus being full of grace and truth is that it's really unusual to find a person who is full of grace and full of truth it's more common to find somebody full of grace I kind of have to put it in scare quotes because it's not really grace but they they don't really like truth a lot because they're compassionate and kind and gentle and accepting and and tolerant and so you know they're they're people who want to comfort you and be kind to you but but truth kind of actually gets in the way of it because you don't want to correct people you don't want to call out the sin in their lives because you love them right oh it gets perverted so badly the concept of love doesn't it you love them and you you know you you don't want them to be offended and and and so you you know you're full of grace but not truth and truth gets compromised in such a case but then there's also like kind of the other side of the spectrum the full of truth people you know wow we're gonna fight for the truth here and it becomes kind of a a club to hit people over the head and there just is not grace in it so here's Jesus full of grace and full of truth amazing and and you know I think part of the reason John mentioned that in in John 1 is he wants us to read the rest of the gospel and see Jesus in his interactions with others as full of grace and truth so think think for example Jesus with Nicodemus John 3 do you see it full of grace boy he you know he could have just hammered him but he was gracious full of grace and truth he didn't compromise the truth think of Jesus and the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4 full of grace and truth okay so here's the point my friends it is something that each one of us should endeavor by God's grace to to be more like Jesus so that we are full of grace and truth and help our children as they grow to get that balance to get it right you know so grace doesn't become compromising of the truth and truth doesn't become a bludgeon so so that there really is kind of this fullness of of grace and truth together so yes you want to proclaim the truth but you want to do it in love in care for the other wanting not first and foremost to win the argument wanting first and foremost to commend what is good and true and right and glorious and beautiful and life-giving if you will but see it and embrace it right so full of grace and truth so boy think of that with your own kids because I think we by kind of temperament are born into this world tilting one direction or the other you know more on the true side more on the grace side and so we just need to help our kids grow and have that blend of full of full of grace and truth as Jesus was here's a second one stewardship and faithfulness from first Corinthians 4 verse 2 it's one of my very favorite passages in the Bible really one that has impacted me in terms of understanding the nature of ministry about as much as any passage in the Bible Paul writes in verses 1 and 2 let a man regard us in this manner as servants of Christ and stewards of the mystery mysteries of God in this case moreover it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy or faithful right so again we talked about stewardship a moment ago so I just will remind you a steward is very different from an owner an owner can do with what he owns as he wants but a steward receives something from an owner someone else who is the owner of it but receives that and is to use it in a way that the owner approves okay so we are stewards of the mysteries of God and so we want to steward that well with our own children and we want them as they grow to realize the privilege it is for them to have the mysteries of God the gospel and the truths about God and Christ and and and salvation and so on to have these truths as their own and feel the stewardship of trading it rightly you know of being being faithful to what is there so that stewardship then you can see in Paul in verse 2 that stewardship then is manifest how do you know if you've been a good steward have you been trustworthy with it have you been faithful with it so I did I cannot tell you how deeply this has impacted me through most of my career as a theology teacher I have felt the weight of realizing I am a steward of these truths and I want to you know give an account before the Lord one day that I have endeavored by God's grace now I know I failed and he will correct me in that in that day but I have endeavored to be faithful to what that stewardship is and not think that I'm the one who's responsible to think this stuff up you know and that it's not ultimately for me it's not it's just not it's all from the Lord and from his word so help your children I mean help them see that that's your heart and that needs to be their heart as well that they they themselves embrace the stewardship of receiving the truths of God's word and then are faithful in believing and teaching and applying that word in their lives next point under this heading is diligence independence first Corinthians 15 10 we talked about this verse earlier when Paul says by the grace of God I am what I am is grace toward me did not prove vain I labored even more than all of them that is the other apostles yet not I but the grace of God with me and what you see in this and I think is really needs to be part of our children's character as they grow is this is this balance and combination of both diligence and dependence so I labored more than all of them dependence yet not I but the grace of God with me so again you model this for them so they they see in you you know dad boy you're working hard yeah I am but I just want you to know son daughter I want you to know that God is providing the strength that I have to do this and he receives the glory for for the good things that I do so you know model this for them but then help them grow in this sense of both the diligence so we want our kids to grow to be hard-working responsible children right now give them tasks to do my my dad I grew up in Spokane Washington it's part of what's called the Palouse country of eastern Washington wheat farms bean you know and so I worked on a farm for a couple summers during high school because my dad wanted me to find out what work was boy did I find out what work was wow I mean up at 430 every morning to change pipes you know these are irrigation pipes on the ground not the the mechanical kind you know but this is you know lift them up hold them run them up 60 feet come back and get the next one lift it up drain that pipe and you know it was just plain hard work during harvest it was you know 15 16 hours a day driving truck driving combine tractor you know so I that wasn't my life I was a city boy spoke well small city Spokane but you know you're so learning to to be responsible learning to work is such an important thing but again it is not I labored more than all of them period no it's I labor yet not I but the grace of God with me so the dependent side of it needs to be so thoroughly brought to their attention and help help them to understand this is so important that it's not ultimately what we do it's ultimately God's work in and through us that is of value to others and eternal value for the purposes of God so diligence and dependence in what we want our children to embrace and their character character to be marked by and then finally assisting theological expression the conduct of Christian youth some ways in which they should live before others first one of this is humility and boldness so look with me just for a moment at second Timothy chapter one beginning at verse eight and you see these themes in what the apostle Paul says he says in verse eight of second Timothy one therefore do not be ashamed of the test of the testimony of our Lord or of me his prisoner but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God who saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which he has granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus by abolishing death and brought to life it brought brought life and immortality to light through the gospel for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher for this reason I also suffer these things but I'm not ashamed for I know that I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day retain the standard of sound words which you have received from me in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus guard through the holy spirit who dwells within you the treasure that has been entrusted to you so what we want their conduct to be marked by is this boldness that you see with the apostle Paul don't be ashamed of the testimony of Christ or of me his prisoner but join me in suffering so the you know this sense of the of the embrace of the the meaning of what it means to declare to believe and declare the truth of God's word the boldness that is there but to do so in humility because you realize it's God's word not mine it's by his power not mine and so a humility before the Lord knowing that he's the one verse 12 I'm convinced that he is able to guard what I've entrusted to him until that day so God is the one who is able to keep you sustain you and and help you to flourish because of his work in you so you can be bold and be full of pride and that is not pleasing to the Lord you can have a kind of humility again kind of have to put scare quotes around it a kind of humility that will never be bold right you know just kind of a humble guy don't speak up don't say anything well that's not what this is either it's a humility that marks your dependence upon God but a boldness that trusts him and his word to be true so you proclaim it to others it's it's the the combination of the two together is what we want to see in the expression of our Christian lives and what we want our children to grow up with so promoting in them both a humility and a boldness secondly integrity and purity first Peter 1 13 to 19 if you want to turn there for just a moment first Peter 1 at verse 13 therefore prepare your minds for action keep sober in spirit fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ as obedient children do not be conformed to the former lust which were yours in your ignorance but like the holy one who called you be holy yourselves in all of your behavior because it is written you shall be holy for I am holy and if you address his father the one who impartially judges according to each one's work conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth knowing that you are not redeemed with perishable things like silver gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers but with precious blood as of the as of a lamb unblemished and spotless the blood of Christ so an integrity of person who is obedient to the Lord as obedient children conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth so having an integrity where your life exhibits the truth of what you have embraced as a believer and so there is a consistency now all of us fail you know I'm not calling for perfection because the Bible doesn't call for perfection but the Bible does call for growth in becoming more like this right the the growth in increased Christ likeness increased holiness the Bible clearly does call for that and so indeed an integrity a growing integrity that is in part in part marked by purity so back in verses 14 and 15 as obedient children do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance so yes you live that way of life but you didn't know the holy god you didn't know the holiness of god you didn't know his call upon our lives to live as men of purity you didn't know that but now you do so like the holy one who called you be holy yourselves in all your behavior so again this comes to us first before it comes to our kids I mean we want this to be true of our kids but boy we have to grow in this ourselves to be to be men of integrity so our word and works match and men of purity part of that life that we live is a life devoted to turning away from the things that marked us in our unsaved life and and in endeavoring by god's grace to live in greater purity and greater holiness of life as god enables us to do so integrity and purity and then finally last item is looking back and looking forward and here I'm just thinking of of uh are the lord supper as the institution in which we look back and we look forward and this really does mark so much of what our lives should look like as christians so in that passage in first Corinthians 11 Paul writes I receive from the lord that which I deliver to you that the lord Jesus in the night in which he is betrayed took bread when he given thanks he broke it and he said this is my body which is for you do this in remembrance look back at this right do this in remembrance of me in the same way he took the cup this cup is the new covenant my blood do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me look back at what happened at the cross but then verse 26 for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim future the lord's death until he comes so we we really are to have perspectives that are backward looking my goodness that's where our salvation was accomplished that's where christ you know gave himself for us and our whole identity is wrapped up in our union with christ who died and was raised and and our we find our new life to be connected with what christ has done we are in christ people but we also need to be people who are looking forward to what awaits us at the coming of christ you know one passage of scripture i just find so fascinating let me just show you this for a moment in ephesians chapter 2 turn there if you would just for a moment in ephesians 2 paul describes our salvation as you recall from our horrible destitute condition we were dead in our trespasses and sins and and we were living according to the lust of the flesh and we were children of wrath you know he describes all that in verses one to three but then verse four but god being rich in mercy because of his great love even when we were dead in our transgressions has made us alive together with christ now look at what he says in verses six and seven he's raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in christ jesus so that that that's a purpose clause that begins verse seven so that so here's the purpose of your salvation in the ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of his grace and kindness toward us in christ jesus guess what paul does here he skips over this life right now all together i mean isn't that amazing so that why has god saved you so that in the ages to come that's how important what awaits us in the future is i mean we we just really have no idea the glory the grandeur the beauty i mean look look at how paul labors to try to express that in verse seven in verse seven so that in the ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness toward us in christ jesus he's stumbling over himself to try to express how incredible this is well i think most of us give hardly any thought to what awaits us in the future and yet boy paul commends to us that we we think about that that we and we hope in that that we realize that the best is yet to come you know i use the analogy uh you guys will all get this i know of all the blessing we receive in this life this life here all of it is like the nibble in the kitchen on thanksgiving day you get it don't you you know oh you smell that turkey oh my goodness it smells so good so mom can i yeah she cuts off a tiny little piece and you oh that tastes so good that's that's the whole of the blessing of life now is the nibble in the kitchen and then comes the banquet that's in the ages to come so indeed i you know we just need need to help us and help our children embrace this looking back and looking forward so that we really understand who we are we know our identity we we know where we come from we know where we're going and it defines the whole of our lives well uh some thoughts you know on how to disciple our kids some key theological areas to cover with them think about with them in terms of the content of the christian faith their own character as a growing young christians and then the conduct that they are to live uh out as christian people so let me just pray close this off and then we'll move into a q and a time father thank you for the truth of your word i mean we've just touched on so many different things that that are helpful and instructive lord your word is indeed powerful and so able to direct us and guide us and we pray that you would grant all of us as as uh men uh a deepened desire to know your word better but also lord to have a desire and strategy increasingly lord to to see this word taught to our children and impact their lives and reshape them into the kind of people that you want them to be so lord do this good work in us and in them and we will give to you all the praise and the glory for every good and perfect gift is from your hand our father we pray these things in christ name amen well why don't we just move move into a q and a time we've got um really a half hour plus uh to do this and if there aren't questions if you don't want to talk about things we just can't leave here and be noisy because the women women are you know doing their thing but we we might have some things to talk about and i'll leave it to you to uh see how this unfolds so if anyone wants to be brave and start it off there you go there's brave man right there yes thank you yes yeah yeah yeah so um my mother i mean just to give you one kind of concrete example my mother had a talk with me when i was in a sophomore in high school and she said bruce of course we we hope the lord brings you a wife but we don't know if this is going to happen so you know what i don't want you to be one of those ugly bachelors out there that don't know how to do anything and so for the next two years at home you're going to do all your own stuff so you're you're going to wash your own clothes you're going to iron i'm going to teach you how to iron i love ironing to this day because my mom taught me so well she was a perfectionist my mom was and so you know so she she just taught me how to cook how i mean just basics not not anything elaborate but how to handle a kitchen how to handle the you know the everyday kinds of things uh and you know i i used that for seven or eight years before i got married but i think that was just kind of one example my dad in a similar way just wanted me to know of course we're praying that the lord will bring your wife but this may not be the case and so you've you've just got to be a faithful and and chaste man so he talked to me to me about those kinds of issues of human sexuality and and try to encourage me to be a faithful follower of christ in my single life as a you know young man so my folks did that kind of thing i which i think was really helpful for me to think and when god did bring jodi my way i was so grateful i am still am so grateful in fact more than ever that he's given that gift but you just don't know so prepare them for and then i think along with that something my folks didn't do but i think would be really helpful to do would be to help them think and just get it clear in their mind that if god chooses not to bring me a wife or husband that it's because his plan for me and for my good is the life of singleness in other words is god's plan not he failed me no this this is plan a not plan b because the first one didn't work so you can embrace that as something that is the good design of god for me that may change i mean who knows god could bring somebody along nancy lee damas you probably know that name i think she was how old when she got married you know she was down here in little rock a lot at family life recording her programs and stuff years ago but i think she was in her 50s when she got married so you know lord can change it but still be prepared help your kids be prepared for whichever way the lord takes you and know that whichever way it is it's his design and good yeah yes in the back yeah please ah well this is uh this is a difficult thing because are they still living at home yeah so i think part of the equation if they're at home is you know there's this kind of heavier hand that has to be exerted which you're in our home you follow our rules it's that simple and so there is there is a sense in which the authority side of it has to be there in regulating conduct in a certain way but boy just take to heart uh romance two is at verse five do you not know that it is the kindness of the lord that leads you to repentance the kindness of the lord leads you to repentance and so in every way you can i would encourage you or who you know whoever this may be to shower upon that son right could be a daughter who's going through a rebellion lavish love so that it will hit him at some point um i'd be a fool to turn away from a dad or a mom who loves me like this and that they even the rules that they have to obey they have they you know you're in our home you follow these rules there's no no argument about this no negotiating on this but even those rules are set up what for your good this is this isn't to diminish your happiness this is to expand it so it's the kindness of the lord that leads you to repentance i mean ultimately it is that it's it's the you know i have come that you might have life and have it abundantly says jesus so i think that's the tone i would say let me let me tell you this my own dad my sister who's four years older than me uh was dating this guy none of us liked him he was a real jerk and he was not a believer and um she goodness she was so close she was engaged to this guy and so close to to marrying him and who knows what it would have happened and my dad had had the stern talks with her many many times and he finally came to the realization what is the most likely thing that will win my daughter back to me is my love so after they had a particularly confrontive conversation about this guy my dad ordered two dozen yellow roses which was her favorite favorite flower two dozen yellow roses and had it sent to her dorm room at her college and she got those flowers with a loved dad and started weeping so it was that gesture that just reminded her of how much her dad loved her and what a fool she was and it it changed right then now you know so i'm not suggesting that there's a magic bullet out there for every situation i'm not but but it was this expression you know ultimately of love that pulled her back and so that that's what i would commend i don't know if others want to comment on that you know you've had experiences i'd be happy to for others of you to share if you want to but okay all right yes please thank you then we'll go over there next yes please so my kids are sick of divorce and i was wondering what advice you would have for young dad like me and young kids that uh they come to church with us you know they mix in a preaching we could say the devotion they sing with the god they memorize the scripture how would that make a picture of your daughter christian me and the young man to pray yes right so it's not behaviorism yeah right yes yeah could you hear the question in the back with younger children how because they're you know you've teach them to obey you teach them to behave you're there they're at church they're hearing these things and so that uh the christian life doesn't become then just behavior doing the right things that sort of thing you know oddly enough there is a view out there among some christians that to avoid the problem that you're addressing in your question you don't require of them obedience you just you so so that they their conversion will then be marked by necessarily moving away from a really rebellious sort of life and undisciplined and you know and i just think that is the most foolish thing in the world train up a child and he but but okay so you say well yeah the bible makes clear we we that's not the way to go let let kids do whatever they want that's what parenting is uh should be are you kidding but then you end up with your problem the problem you're addressing in this question that is what do you do with good kids and and help them know that just being good kids is not being a christian so i think part of the answer this is not all of it but part of the answer is the heart of the christian faith heart so two things number one is if they see in you and your wife if they see in the parents not only an intellectual sorry if they see in you not only an intellectual understanding of the christian faith and verses that you know and theology that you know and so on you can talk about that at the table but they see in you a heart embrace of these things that you love christ you're moved by his word you care about the things of god that these these are deeply genuine aspects of your inner life as a as a man of god if they see that in you they'll know it's more than just head knowledge and doing the right things right so part of it is by seeing in you uh the the heart embrace of the faith but then you could also i think the heart is a key thing in helping them understand they're not christians just because they're behaving the right way so i hope i can convey this clearly there were times when when our girls either one of them would obey mommy but do so okay and i never spanked them for begrudging obedience but i did talk with them and i take them aside and say you know what i'm glad you obeyed your mom and did that but the attitude indicates you're not doing this as a christian right you have an attitude so god loves a cheerful giver the cheer really matters right it's not just the giving he loves a cheer because a cheerful giver is someone who can give because you know god's going to take care of me i don't i don't need to worry about giving up this money uh for for the service of the lord because goodness god will not fail to take care of my needs and our family so i i can give generously and and and joyfully because i know he's got my back you know so there there is that that cheerfulness so so help them understand that just doing the right thing is not the christian life it's doing the right thing out of a heart of love and joy and and and a heart that longs to please the lord and it's one of the ways you can talk to them about the gospel because you the only way that that can change because because behavior modification can happen just because you insist upon it right hence your question but what you what you cannot do what they cannot do is change their hearts so for that you have to have the surgery of ezekiel 36 26 i will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh right that that requires the regenerative work of the spirit to remake them from the inside out and and then grow in beginning to have those attitudes and heart affections that are marked by the spirit at work in them so i mean that's not the whole of it but i think that's a significant part of it is the heart the heart issue yes please no i'm sorry i was going to go over here this gentleman next to them that'll come over yes please yeah yeah please yes oh right yeah well right and i i think um your your question just it really does highlight these two they're both they're both uh excessive and and ultimately mistaken ways of thinking about how to how to parent the law based of the grace because it really isn't grace and it isn't law as god instructs law to be that is um law law of your heart right so there there really is this this middle way where yes you want you want them to learn to obey you want them to learn to obey you because they need to learn to obey god and you know so all that we've talked about but you also want to see that you know and you want them to know that this is the the pathway to joy this is the only pathway to true life right um these commandments i've given to you that my this is in john 15 i think it's verse 10 i can't remember for sure but these commandments i've given to you that my joy may be in you and your joy may be made full so these commandments so there it is right so helping helping them see that the pathway god calls us to live is a pathway of unqualified obedience but an obedience that we know is designed to bring about human flourishing joy peace happiness fullness of life and uh so bring bring those together in the way in which you you parent so it isn't just it isn't the law side you know if you do if that's all it is kids oftentimes become resentful and and rebel you know against too too heavy of a hand where it doesn't come from at least they can't tell that it comes from a heart of love but then that other grace we have to put it in scare quotes because it isn't real grace but that grace side just you know let let kids do what they want to do and they'll come to christ someday and see see the change boy that that just fails to do what the bible instructs parents all the way through to do it's just wrong to go in that direction and and it can result in far greater harm to your kids i mean one of the advantages of being raised in a christian home is avoiding a bunch of the crud that you might get involved with if you're in a non-christian home not necessarily but often that is the case so yeah that middle way i think is the the pathway please yes yes right yes right yeah yeah i do think that's an important thing i don't know that i would necessarily talk with them about the tone issue every single time but there i would take times to do that where you would take them aside you know so accept the okay i'm sorry you accept that as the for the moment but then later talk with them and say you know i just do you really think that is a kind of apology that the lord would be pleased with sort of yeah i'm doing what i'm told to do but i don't really mean it is that is that what he's after so again use that as an occasion to help them see you know something in my heart just doesn't want to forgive my brother or my sister something in my heart just wants my own way and i don't want to acknowledge that i'm wrong and you know and so i need a new heart so help use that as an occasion to help them see they need the gospel they need transformation from the inside out and so that that i think is just such a critical part of helping your children see what the gospel is and what the gospel can do to change them because the heart the heart you can't touch that like you're saying in your question you can't you know change that but god can yeah thank you very good yes please yes yes so yes but i have a fear that there could be time where i know you probably could have handled this on your phone and has my son seen this as a i can disobey up to the point where you call dad and then my temptation is to okay when you're not handling mom and now i want to crank it up to 10 because i'm not there right yeah so i guess there's two things i don't want you to run rampant he needs to take my word what it is absolutely right away the happy mark but at the same time my wife knows i know you that we can wrestle yeah and you need me at the same time right right right yeah yeah well here's a thought because we i remember facing this very same thing with with our kids and being away from home when when certain things took place and so one thing is i as i encouraged you in one of the sessions already to do as dads and that is work hard at training your children to respect and obey their mother when you're not there right so that that if that's done thoroughly with them then you're going to have fewer of these problems aren't you because her word is ultimately your word through her to them and they need to know that and they they need to know they're going to hear from you but another thing is i what jody and i did and i think it worked pretty well is she didn't call me at the time that something took place oftentimes she couldn't get me anyway because i was teaching or whatever the case might be but she would tell the child um your your daddy's going to talk to you about this when he gets home so i'm i'm going to share with him what just took place and he's going to deal with you when he gets home now they had the whole day to think about that then you know this is a sobering thing because i would come home and jody would say we've got some things to talk about it of what happened i mean it didn't happen real often but it happened several times and um she would share with me and so i would then take the responsibility to deal with them and if spanking was involved to to do that but i had the advantage of having heard from her in a fuller way that you can probably carry on a conversation over the phone what took place just a better understanding of it so that the administration of discipline had the advantage of that fuller information so i think that might be a way to go with it and yes please yes uh-huh well so part of what you deal with with them is not just disciplining for the disobedience that took place but not not listening to their mother her word is just the same as my word right so help helping them learn that the only reason she called me is because uh because you're not obeying her this is not acceptable you have to obey your mother and respect her and speak respectfully to her and so on you know so all those things i mean i i had the advantage of growing up with a southern dad in spokane washington because he was discharged he grew up in fort valley georgia this dad of mine so he was a georgia you know southerner good good guy and uh but he was discharged from the army at air at fairchild air force base in spokane because of an injury they this was during world war ii and he was going to be part of the normandy invasion but had appendicitis and so they shipped him out uh and he met my mother in spokane and they settled there so but i grew up with his georgia dad who yes sir yes ma'am no sir no ma'am so you know i i had the advantage of kind of a southern benefit to the christian training that i got as a boy growing up and there's something so healthy about that the respect that used to be a part of kind of the southern christian culture had a lot to commend it now it can be just formalistic legalistic behavioristic you know that that's true but it also can be of a way of expressing true christian values you know in in so in any case i think helping helping your child at that point um learn the main problem here is not the disobedience per se but your mother has to be obeyed do you get that or you're going to be facing me regularly until you learn you need to obey her so anyway yeah good thank you yeah yeah yeah please yes she she would do something usually it was just verbal you know that this this is unacceptable but she knew it was something that was serious enough that it required more and so she would hand it over to me yeah right good other things um we we still have five minutes or so if you would like to yes please yes yes the same page yeah yes well so some an event like this sort of thing is helpful because it kind of helps pull people together on the same page to maybe at least a greater degree than would have been the case without it so this kind of thing is can be helpful but i know exactly what you're talking about our own family jody and i many times just kind of shook our heads over the fact that there were very few christian families in our church that we felt comfortable having our children with because the standards in so many other homes just were not our standards and and so we it's frustrating it's a very difficult part of of being of trying to be a proactive responsible parent because other people don't have those same same values so i think that is difficult and what you want to do is try to help others get it along the way so i mean i've done that over the years by just talking to dads if i see something and i'll ask if i have their permission because it's sensitive boy if there is hardly anything more sensitive even politics doesn't quite reach this level of talking to a mom and her dad about their kids i've had students come to me as a seminary professor say dr weyer please you know whatever anything you want to speak into my life that's the phrase right speaking to my life i i i'm an open book i just want what so we'll you know they'll invite us over to their home for dinner we'll be there and i see how things go with the kids and so the next time we meet i say would you mind if i mention a couple things about your relationship with your kids wall goes up right there don't you dare so i don't know what it is i i we we don't have a healthy church culture where we can deal with these things together remember my dad would tell me on my way to church sometimes he'd say now bruce remember there's 50 other dads in that church that i've given permission to spank you you know so okay i get it you know so i i just wish i wish there was more of a spirit of pulling together and working at common principles of parenting hence something like this can help but i think it it requires more than that it requires a really a sense of humility among our parents to try to learn from each other and learn a route to go with our kids that unites us more commonly together as parents doing this together yeah it's hard to get there though very hard to get there okay anything else yes please yes right i think when they're younger spanking is the form of discipline you know it just it just is i mean you obviously you talk with them first so you don't you don't jump to a spanking just immediately but you you do you do in terms of the impact of how they get it it's through a spanking but then as they get older there are things that they do and things that they have and and different kinds of activities and so on that can be the the tools of the discipline you know so not playing with the you know some things that they like to play with or whatever period of time because of something you've done or whatever the case might be i think it is helpful if the discipline number one is appropriate to the offense in terms of the the amount you do but also the discipline is something that they actually feel they they understand i mean it really does hit them because it is something that they you know like like a spanking does they feel the weight of it when it happens so but honestly i i really feel for our fellow christian parents in places like canada in england and scandinavia where spanking has been outlawed you know so i've i've spoken about parenting over in england and they edit out of the recording anything i say about spanking because they don't want the authorities to learn that they've talked about that in their church or their you know so wow what a shame because it is god ordained you know it's it's it's a very effective as long as it's done rightly and not an abusive way it's very effective but then there are other things i think that you can do that relate to things that mean a lot to the kids that they feel the weight of this when they can't do that or don't have this or whatever the case might be so all right we're we're probably right at the edge of the time here anything else anybody quickly well thank you so much those were excellent questions i'm so grateful and uh thank you for coming again just a joy to to do this with you men and with the women who were here before uh pray that the lord will use it to just help you know how we're we're at a stage of life now where we look back on it primarily but most of you are in the midst of it may god help you and know it's participatory remember that you're not alone on this the lord is working in and through you to do it and he will give you strength wisdom grace to do it so let's pray father thank you for this time we are just grateful lord that we belong to you our hope is in you and we pray that you'd help us to just be uh people men of integrity men of purity men of of devotion to you and through that lord a model for our children of what what it looks like to be a christian help us lord to grow in being more and more of that we pray and grant us grace and strength in the parenting role we have in jesus and we pray amen thank you so much.