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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 2 Episode 20: Reexamining Power and Society
Please welcome Patrick Jones, also known as Mr.JonesX. With his expertise in diversity, inclusion, and human rights advocacy, Patrick actively engages over 400,000 fans, including a significant LGBTQ+ community, through his thought-provoking content.
As a TikTok influencer and public speaker, Patrick addresses the same themes you've explored - the rise of hate, political divisiveness, and mental health challenges. His insights add a power layer to our conversations.
What if the educational system we've trusted for so long is actually stifling our children's potential? Patrick Jones, also known as Mr. Jones X on TikTok, joins us to illuminate his powerful journey from an aspiring pharmacist to a finance director and passionate social justice advocate. Through his recounting of a shocking kindergarten incident of racial discrimination, Patrick shares how his early experiences shaped his unyielding commitment to equality and his unique perspective on society, bolstered by his sociology studies and his ability to retain vast amounts of information.
Our discussion takes a poignant turn as we examine the systemic issues within law enforcement, spotlighting the tragic case of Sonia Massey and the broader implications of police responses to mental health crises. Patrick and I critique the glorification of toxic power dynamics and explore the disturbing parallels between law enforcement misconduct and military sexual assault. By interweaving local, state, and federal political engagement, we underscore the importance of informed voting and collective action to drive meaningful change. Wrapping up with a reflection on the role of comedy and social media in addressing societal issues, we challenge listeners to step out of their comfort zones and advocate for a just society.
Also remember that it is okay to take a break to care for yourself. Cora reminded me of this right after the episode ended.
Special Thank you to Cora Lee Kennedy for her fill in hosting. She has joined on as a volunteer research assistant and is 100% amazing.
90 state lawmakers accused of sexual misconduct since 2017 | AP News
Quick Facts on Sexual Abuse Offenses (ussc.gov)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/illinois-sheriffs-deputy-charged-with-murder-shot-black-woman-in-face-after-she-called-police-for-help. Melissa Perez Winder, Associated Press, Ed White, Associated Press, John O'Connor, Associated Press
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/body-cam-video-shows-illinois-deputy-fatally-shooting-sonya-massey
https://newschannel20.com/news/local/multiple-911-calls-made-before-sonya-massey-was-fatally-shot-by-deputy
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody, this is Matt, and welcome back to the United States of PTSD. Before we get started, I just have one quick announcement to make. So Julia is on vacation this week, so she is not going to be here with me, but she will be back next week. I do have Cora with me and, for those of you that have been following the podcast, cora was on the Alice episode. Cora had reached out to me and had volunteered to do some research on the side. So, cora, I'm super happy that you have agreed to do that.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy to help you.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's so wonderful. It really is. And today we have a guest speaker which I'm super excited about and I'm going to let him introduce himself. So if you would like to go ahead, that'd be great.
Speaker 3:Hi, my name is Patrick Jones. My TikTok moniker, or my stage name, as it were, is Mr Jones X.
Speaker 2:Can you give us a little bit just about your background, so we know?
Speaker 3:Sure, sure, sure. So, funny enough, I originally went to college to be a pharmacist oh really, that's awesome, yeah. So I worked in the pharmaceutical field for only a few years before I realized that it was the most monotonous job on the planet and it was just not for me. And so I left there and I went to work for the Department of Defense for a short period of time and then there from from there I went into the car industry and I was a finance director in one of the largest automobile chains in northern Virginia, the DC metro area, for 13 years and while I was working there and there's so much backstory behind that. But I got my master's degree in sociology. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:So we're kind of I mean you, you certainly are a jack of all trades. You've got a lot of like different things going on, so that it'll be interesting.
Speaker 3:You literally can build a house from the ground up. I can, I can fix almost anything car washer and dryer, I mean, you name it. I don't know why. Like I said, I always say and I don't know, you know this do necessarily be true, but I have to attribute it to something right. So I was like you know, I am on the autism spectrum and I retain, you know, wild amounts of information and I don't even know why. When I was a kid, I used to take toys apart and make them into new things and it would drive my parents nuts but it made me happy. I mean, I installed my own phone line in my room and this is back in the early 90s, when I was like 10 or 11 years old. So I don't know, I'm kind of the opposite of you.
Speaker 2:I look at something and it breaks, so that's, I don't know. I'm kind of the opposite of you. I look at something and it breaks, so truly, I'm not even kidding. I can't even tell you how many lawnmowers and snowblowers I went through in like a very short period of time. So I don't touch things.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Bad at that stuff, but it's. The other thing I've noticed just from watching your TikToks is you're also very much about social justice, right and like and fighting for inequality. You know, against inequality and all of that stuff. So how did you get like? Where did that start, was that?
Speaker 3:from being in sociology, like where'd that come from? You know it's, it's, it's great. So when I was a very young child, I went to a school in Alexandria, Virginia, northern Virginia, and you have to remember, like this is the 80s in Virginia, loving versus Virginia, where Virginia and you have to remember, like this is the eighties in Virginia, loving versus Virginia where you know that was the decision by the Supreme court where having a interracial marriage was made legal happened only a few years before I was born Wow, yeah, literally. And so when I was in kindergarten, there wasn't any other people that were multi-ethnic or biracial. I was the only person that was not white in my kindergarten class.
Speaker 3:I think there was one child that was Asian. If I recall correctly, looking back in my memory bank, that picture where everybody's lined up sitting in the chairs, I think that there was one child that was Asian, but I had very fair skin, light hair, bluish, bluish green eyes, and I don't think my my teacher actually knew what I was for sure, cause she had only ever met my mom. And then one day my dad came into school and the teacher said the following day, when we were going to go out to a recess, that N-Words can't play outside with the other kids. Her name was Mrs Hatch. She was probably in her eighties.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, yeah, and so and I had no idea I'd never heard that before.
Speaker 3:I didn't know what that meant. So I went home and I asked my parents. I was like what does this mean? And my mom was like where did you hear that? And then I tell her and we didn't stay in that school much longer. That was kind of the end of that. We actually moved out of the town. Yeah, we moved out of the town to a suburb of Northern Virginia that was more, you know, ethnically diverse. And then probably around fifth grade I'd spent a lot of time in the summer. I think I was on punishment, I probably was Reading books and stuff like that. And listen, I was a different kid, I'm not even going to pretend. I spent a lot of time reading books Malcolm X, james Baldwin, reading about Bayard Rustin and Martin Luther King and Fred Hampton, huey P Newton. And I go back to school in fifth grade and they said we need everybody to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and I was like no, I can't do that.
Speaker 3:And they're like what do you mean? And I was like listen, why am I pledging allegiance to an inanimate object, to a flag? I don't understand the purpose. And I said as far as I know, this country has never stood for me. Why should I stand for it? And that was really my position, and so I spent pretty much the entirety of my fifth grade year in what they call in-school suspension, where I did all of my homework in the library. I did all of my classwork in the library and wasn't able to be in the classroom with the other children Was that because you wouldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance that they actually gave you.
Speaker 2:That the whole time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because they said that I was. I was causing, you know, other children to rebel against authority. I mean, they essentially called me a menace to the, to the school. Oh my gosh. And so the structure, the structure of the curriculum, because I was known from, you know, the entirety of the time that I was, you know, in this elementary school. I was known, even in third grade. I would correct teachers. Elementary school, I was known even in third grade. I would correct teachers of grammar. I would correct them on aspects of history. They would say things about indigenous people and I'm like, well, that's actually not true. They would say, oh well, pocahontas was part of the Powhatan tribe and I was like, no, powhatan was her father, he was the chief. That's not the name of the tribe. The tribe was the Matapani people. So they just didn't like that. They didn't like me correcting the narrative, so to speak. So I think that I always had that nature about me.
Speaker 2:You know it's sad to say, but I, you know, I work part-time as an educator and I wish if I had a dime for every time I heard a student say to me something to the effect of I tell the professor what I think they want to hear, because I know that we're not allowed to think for ourselves, or or some various variations of that right and every time I hear it I just I get so pissed off, not not the students obviously right absolutely and and I'll tell them all the time I'm like I don't want you to be like replicas of me.
Speaker 2:I want you to be able to have critical thinking. So certainly, if you don't agree with something, please tell me that cora has, you know, of course, academy, so she knows that that's true, but I mean like literally. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say you mean, we're allowed to have an opinion, and it blows my mind well.
Speaker 3:here's the thing, though, and this is what I think a lot of people don't understand is that when you're going through K-12, right, when you're going through K-12, you are truly being indoctrinated. I mean, it is the essence of indoctrination. The school bells, you know, the measured timeframes, the standing for the Pledge of Allegiance, the standing for the National Anthem All of these things are training you, and they are telling you specifically what to think, and not how to think, and not how to do the research. And there's no critical thinking skills.
Speaker 3:And I blame a lot of it on the parents as well, because our parents in my age group you know, I'm in my, in my, my 40s, right would tell us you know, don't do X, Y, Z. And when we say why, they say because I said so and so you're robbing children of critical thinking skills. What I tell my children is hey, you know, you can if they're jumping on the sofa, hey, you can sit on your bottom or you can stand on the floor. And if they ask me why, I say, well, hey, to go to the hospital. And now I've given them the ability you know to process through these things. Oh, wow, no, I don't want to break my arm. I don't enough to have professors that showed me how to do the research and never told me what to think.
Speaker 2:That makes me happy. I'm glad that you had that experience, because that's really what your go to college for is to you know, to learn not to be told.
Speaker 3:Right, but I think that a lot of people come into college and that's their expectation, because that's what they know, that's what they've always known, and so they do try to go along, to get along, instead of reaching for further knowledge or, you know, seeking out the truth, as it were.
Speaker 2:You know what's interesting is I know we're getting off topic, but just to kind of finish this, I'm actually seeing a little bit of reversal of that now, where in core you're actually a student. So I'm just curious what your opinion is on this. But I'm seeing a reversal where now the students are telling the faculty kind of what to think and what to do in a way that's erroneous and entitled Completely and it's becoming really problematic.
Speaker 1:So I just want to say, like everything you're saying, jones, is so much of my experience in terms of like how I came into high school, how I came into the world, like a lot of good intentioned people but led like way astray and a lot of things.
Speaker 1:Like I've had to do so much unlearning in my life and I'm still completely working on it. There's so much I don't know because of the way I grew up, where I grew up, how I was taught and you know, I was a shy girl who didn't, you know, break rules, so it never occurred to me that I could break a rule or that I could. I should be asking those questions, and it really wasn't until I became an adult, sort of recently, that I was just like, oh my God, so much of this is so wrong. But, yeah, we are seeing a shift in the classroom that's kind of horrible, like just very entitled students who are not doing the work. Unfortunately, you know and I don't want to speak for everybody, but I've just seen a lot of questioning teachers about grades and things that don't matter and losing focus of what actually matters.
Speaker 3:Yeah, unlearning is something that you know. Some, in some instances, is a lifelong practice. Things that go against your core value, your core knowledge, those are some. Those are things that we develop at a fairly young age and sometimes those things can be programmed later in life, but it's through repetition. It's through repetition.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:That's what makes Donald Trump so effective saying the same things. At every single rally, at every single presser, at every single you know event that is held, he says the same things over and, over and over again. Joseph Goebbels, who was the minister of propaganda for Adolf Hitler, specifically said like if you tell, you know, if you say the same thing enough times, the lie becomes the truth.
Speaker 3:And I say that to say that when things go against those core values or your core understanding of how the world works, it elicits an amygdala response. Your fight, flight freeze, fall in response.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so your first instinct is to fight it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and not only to fight it but to feel like very deeply ashamed and to question your own core values and go further, to question your family's core values is painful. But I can honestly say like I was taught many, many things that were very wrong and I don't believe that anymore, thank goodness. You know like I feel really grateful for the people I've met that have changed my opinion.
Speaker 2:Right, right, you know what I'd actually be curious about both your opinions on this, because what I've been seeing more to and Cora, you know, particularly with everything that's happening in Gaza right now, like I have learned so much that I never knew ever existed, because I mean, obviously we've never taught any of this at school.
Speaker 1:Right, we're giving all this propaganda classic conditioning now unconditioning yourself is when you start to kind of see all these things as a lone woman, because not a lot of other people see it. That is where you will understand who your real friends are. You know, like the people that you're struggling with, who are really like doing the work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Well, the other thing that I always tell people is you're never going to grow in a space that is comfortable. And so in those uncomfortable spaces that you change, that you grow. You know that change you. I always say that people don't necessarily change experience, change people. And so like, like you know, if you have a near death experience or you lose everything, that's the catalyst for change. But if there's no reason, right, if you become complacent or comfortable in your space, there's no reason for you to change. Uh, so like people don't change experiences, change people yeah, so let's.
Speaker 2:Um, I know the original topic was that we wanted to talk about everything that happened with sonia massey recently. Yeah, didn't find out about it until a couple of days after it happened. I don't know Cora, when you found out about it. That's problem one, and I bet there's people right now listening that don't even know who it is. So, jones, do you want to talk a little bit about the case itself?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Sonia Massey had called the police, I think Sagamon County Sheriff's Department, which is in Illinois. She had called them because she was having, you know, she needed help. Essentially she was looking for help. I think that she may have been having a mental health episode.
Speaker 2:Because she did have a. She did have schizophrenia, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So as far as you know I can tell from all of the information available she was having a mental health episode. You know, the details of what was going on in that moment are kind of unclear because she was talking about how she was like trying to get away from a neighbor or something of that nature. And so the police, you know, came into the, into the apartment, into the apartment. It's very strange how it played out this idea that the officer, the sheriff, feared for his life Because when watching the body camera footage that came out, he allowed her to dig through a bag to try to find her identification multiple times, search throughout the home, in her living room area, and at no point while she was digging through bags did he ever seem like he was worried that she may pull out a weapon or anything of that nature. They instructed her to go into the kitchen and turn off the pot of water.
Speaker 2:To not start a fire. And I don't know about you, but I mean, I've boiled water many times in my life and it's never been a risk.
Speaker 3:You could burn it all the way down until it evaporates and heat the pot up, and it's really not going to start a fire, right, exactly, so that was just a load of crap right there. And then she takes the pot over to the sink and is emptying it out, and then she said to the officer I rebuke you essentially. And he said you better not, I'll shoot you in the face. I don't know how that elicits such a response.
Speaker 2:I don't either. I mean it was so out of, I mean it was so exaggerated of a response, right, and you know, and he also added in a couple of you know, my God also added in a couple of explicit you know, explics, my god.
Speaker 2:he added in a couple vulgar words yeah, you know what I'm trying to say and um, you know, watching it? I mean I didn't. I couldn't bring myself to actually watch the video, so I just listened to it. And the level of anger and hate and animosity when he says that is off the hook absolutely um.
Speaker 3:And then, uh, the, the other sheriff that was with him, uh said I'm gonna go get my med bag and he said, no need, it was a head shot, she's done even though she was, still, didn't they say that she actually still was alive at that point? Yes, she was. I don't know that there was anything that could have been done to save her in that instance. I also know that when, after she said I rebuke you and he said that I would shoot you in her face, she released the pot and raised her hands.
Speaker 2:She literally and she apologized too, didn't she?
Speaker 3:Yeah, she said said I'm sorry and uh, and you know he, uh, he did it anyway shot her three times cracked in the face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, now I I, when I first started doing social work, I did home visits, right, and obviously I worked with um. Well, maybe not obviously, but, but I know you don't know me, but my specialty was addiction. So I walked into a lot of houses where families had histories of addictions and drug use. And there was actually one house I walked into that a drug deal took place in front of me and I didn't even realize it because of how well they had covered it up. But despite that and there were obviously a couple of situations that did escalate I never felt like I should pull out a gun and shoot somebody.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Like that never crossed my mind. There were so many other options about like leaving, de-escalating, like all sorts of stuff Right, especially if somebody is having a mental health crisis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and this is not the first time that somebody was experiencing a mental health crisis, has been, you know, shot by police officers.
Speaker 3:You know, this isn't the first time that people who are in need called the police and were killed by the police that showed up, you know, to help them. These things have to happen, and I know the critics will always say, well, the percentages are so low, but there shouldn't be any percentages at all. I think that the real issue here is one our Supreme Court has determined that police officers in the United States of America do not have, are not required to serve and protect the people. They don't have the duty, it's not incumbent upon them to serve and protect the people of the United States, and that in and of itself, is an issue, especially because our taxpayers fund their salaries, fund their pensions, and there's simple ways that we could prevent these types of incidents from happening. But I think that, like you know, right wing, like conservative politicians and community members, even you know other citizens, they glorify and idolize these people behind a badge as if they're not human beings just like us.
Speaker 1:Did you see the Trump interview with the? It was the Conference of Black Journalists.
Speaker 3:So that the National Association of Black Journalists that yeah, the NABP.
Speaker 1:Um. So when they specifically asked about this event and he kind of said, oh well, and then said I don't really know the specifics about this.
Speaker 3:But 80%, and I don't think enough people know this. But 80% of communication is body language and if you watch Trump when he's saying these things? He puts his hands up like this, as if to insinuate that she was throwing the pot of water at the officer.
Speaker 3:Go back and watch that clip and you'll see precisely that, that he goes like that. He's like, oh, that you know, like this, and yeah, because it's all. And he's listen, not a very bright man, actually. He, actually he, he, he can't even read, to be honest with you, right? However, he is a master manipulator and always has been, and so the things that he does are cold and calculated, and so it's all about mental manipulation, it's all about you know how can I play to my base? And, like the very first question that he was asked, he made it seem as if he was being attacked. It had nothing to do with that journalist. I need you guys to understand. It had nothing to do with that journalist and had everything to do with painting black women, specifically because of Kamala Harris, as being aggressive and attacking. And if you watch, if they do ever debate, you'll see the same tactic played out in the debates as if she's being aggressive and, you know, attacking him.
Speaker 2:You know what I found interesting to go with what you were just saying, because I think we, you know, we all know that our country is fundamentally both racist and sexist. And it drives me up the wall when people are like, oh, it's 2024. That doesn't happen anymore, because the year doesn't determine it. I mean, in some ways we're still in 1950. So I mean, that doesn't make a difference. But somebody pointed this out the other day and I never really noticed it, but that all of the female politicians are called by their first names and all of the male politicians are called by their last names, and I never really noticed that until it was pointed out. And that's just another way we undermine the qualifications of people.
Speaker 3:Well, for Kamala specifically, she branded herself under her first name and she is proud of it and so like, even like, her Instagram is Kamala HQ. Sure, I mean, her TikTok is Kamala HQ, like. She branded herself in that manner, and so I will respect how she's branded herself. But you do have a point. It is a thing. But, going back to what we were just talking about, if we looked at this through an intersectional lens, it plays back into this interaction that happened with Sonia Massey and the sheriff, because, as you were just saying, this country is both misogynistic and racist. And so, if we look at the cross sections right of misogyny and racism, then you have what is known as misogynoir, which is this demonization of black women that they're angry, that they're loud, that they're boisterous, that they're aggressive, you know, and so on and so forth, and like these, portraying them in this manner dehumanizes them to the point that them losing their life has no effect on society at large. They don't even see it as an issue. When a Black woman goes missing, nobody goes looking.
Speaker 2:Oh go ahead, no go ahead, Cora.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was just going to add that you add that one extra layer of mental illness and it's-.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And now you've crossed three intersections. And yeah, and ableism is a huge issue within our society, people do have little to no respect for mental health care, unless, unless, unless it is a young white man that goes into a you know a school and commits a mass, you know a mass shooting, or you know any type of atrocity, goes into a church or a movie theater and then all of a sudden, oh, he was troubled, you know he needed, he needed mental health care, and so on and so forth. So I mean, that's the only time where you see these things even recognized, and it's only for an instant and then the thought is gone, it's you know, even the way they talk about them are different to the way they talk.
Speaker 2:So we see it right now with everything, like with everything going on in Gaza. You know, when they're talking about Palestinians being murdered, the language is very different than when they're talking about Israel and like the moral army in the world, but it's a very different narrative, absolutely. You know, we do that with race, we do it with homophobia, we do it with sex. We, you know, we do it with ableism, we do it with everything. And I just I think the average person really, like you said earlier, is so indoctrinated that I mean, if you talk about all the systems that indoctrinate people's schools, churches, like they're all kind of indoctrinating people into this like don't think, don't think, like you're inherently evil, you're stupid, like you just got to do what you're told and people believe that because that's how their brains are formed around that thought process.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I mean, I say it's the three C's, it's Christianity, colonization and capitalism, and all of those things are inextricably connected and one really cannot operate without you know the, the, you know foundation, foundational principles of the other. You know, if we look back in the history of this country, right, we see that capitalism essentially was the motive to establish this country, as it were. But they used Christianity as the vehicle, you know, and before you could capitalize right on the land, you had to colonize it, right. And so one of the ways and how they were able to get African tribes and things of that nature to literally give up other people on the continent was by stealing people from the continent. And then, when they fought back, they were like, hey, listen, if you accept our Jesus, then you can't be enslaved, but we still need the slaves, so you're just gonna have to bring us other people. And if you don't bring us other people, then we'll take your people, putting them in a precarious situation, right, like, do I lose my son and my daughter and my wife or my husband, or do I find somebody else who I have no you know real connection to and give them as tribute? And then they take these people, you know, over to the lands.
Speaker 3:And all of this has to be cleared through the church, right? And so the way they clear it through the church is they say well, they don't look like us, they don't pray like us, they don't walk like us, they don't talk like us. You know, they don't know our God, they don't. They're not civilized, they're barely human. And so, you know, they use this idea of dehumanizing Black, brown and other people of color. You know indigenous cultures across the globe. Well, they're less than human and we're going to give them our God to make them just a little bit more human, and then we're going to capitalize off of all of the resources that they possess or have access to and their labor.
Speaker 2:What's interesting is we're going to give them our very violent, war-hungry God to show them.
Speaker 3:I believe that.
Speaker 2:Like at the level of cognitive dissonance, right. So I actually I didn't know where the expression the money is the root of all evil came from. So I looked it up it's from the Bible, yeah.
Speaker 3:The love of money. Yeah, the love of money is inherently evil.
Speaker 2:But all of these people practicing capitalism and all these wealthy people are also claiming to be Christian, when the only God they worship is the buck.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those dead presidents on those bills? Absolutely. It's funny because the very same Bible that they read from, there's a verse where they're asking Jesus if they should pay taxes. And all of these people think, right, like all of these Christians think that Jesus is telling them to pay taxes, and that's not what the verse is about at all. Jesus says may I see the coin? And then he said, well, who is this on the coin? And they're like, oh well, that's Caesar. And then he said, well, give, render unto Caesar. What is Caesar's Not saying to pay him the taxes? They're like give that man his money back, like he has his face on it. It was all about idolatry. It was all about, well, he put his face on it, give it back to him. Like everything that you need, god will provide. Paying taxes, which just I mean. I want to say that this is like simply an American issue, but I don't know, this might be a global thing.
Speaker 2:This might be what they teach through the church in order to get people to play into this idea of capitalism, because if you actually read Red Letter, jesus Roe was a whole communist literally I'm actually reading a book right now, and I don't remember the author is, but it's called goddess lost and it's about removal of um pagan goddesses throughout history and the patriarch coming in and what they did to take away women's power.
Speaker 2:And you know it's phenomenal that goddess statues appear on every continent in the world, not because of missionaries, not because people were like forcing it down people's throats, because that's what everybody was believing at the time. And some of the stuff that they did to these women to get rid of their power is real fault. It's just horrifying. But what I wanted to ask you for your opinion about, particularly with the Sonia Massey case, we know that there's obviously a disproportionate number of crimes committed against people of color by law enforcement and people with mental health issues, and that's very well documented. This particular guy and I'll say this is my opinion because I obviously don't know him sounds like an absolute sociopath.
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. The deputy that killed Sonia Massey worked for six different agencies over the span of four years. So what we're seeing here is a history, a pattern of violent behavior, of escalation of abuse of power. We see a history of that, and that's one of the fatal flaws of, you know, our criminal justice system, specifically our police departments. You can commit an atrocity, you can, you know, abuse your power and to avoid reprimand, you can simply just leave the department and go be hired somewhere else. And it's that brotherhood.
Speaker 3:When people say that ACAB, all cops are bastardized, what they're talking about is the bastardization of the system. How, if there is good cops, why aren't they speaking out against the bad cops? Why aren't they collectively? They should be the loudest voices in the room, they should be out there constantly speaking out against these bad apples, right, but they don't, because it's more important to protect the brotherhood and the sanctity of the image of police than it is to actually clean up police departments. And it doesn't help that we hyper-militarize them. It doesn't help that it takes longer to get a barber's license than it does to become a police officer.
Speaker 3:You know people who literally by all measures for the vast majority of American history or the history of the police department, have had carte blanche, can be, you know, judge, jury and executioner sans accountability.
Speaker 1:And that's a question that keeps coming up with this case in terms of the sheriff, so the person who is overseeing the deputy who committed the fatal shot. So Sonia Massey's family has asked for the sheriff who hired the deputy to step down. And I will say I'm not for the deputy or the sheriff in any mean, but I will say that when we look at this case sheriff in any mean, but I will say that when we look at this case, a lot of the things that don't usually happen are happening with the system. Like the sheriff actually came out and made a public apology not enough, not enough at all, but at like the smallest amount that that should always happen, right. And he, this police officer who was so egregious and did this horrible thing, was charged almost immediately was charged pretty quickly, you know his partner also didn't support him right like his partner was quite delayed.
Speaker 1:Turn on me like this guy's like crazy and like yeah. So you know, by checks and measures, like something is happening sort of right with all of this, but it doesn.
Speaker 3:It was because the video evidence was so compelling that there was no way to for them, you know, to try to to to, you know, skew the narrative in any real fashion, and so I think that, in this instance, they had to. They have. They had to know what, bro, this is way too messy, we're just going to have to wash our hands of it. I don't want that to be true, but there's a good case for that being the case.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:If we look historically at these types of incidents. But there's just really no way that you can skew or obscure the narrative here.
Speaker 1:Even that check is working Right. Like the partner used his body cam.
Speaker 3:Oh, he turned the camera off.
Speaker 1:yes, the deputy turned it off right, so at least someone knew this situation wasn't going great to begin with, which only tells me that he had nefarious intentions to begin with.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yep. So do you think in this particular case, because this guy was also thrown out of the well, he was honorably discharged for the, no other other than honorably?
Speaker 3:oh, other than other than honorably discharged? As far as I, as far as I know, I believe he was other than honorably discharged from the military so do you think this is a case of this?
Speaker 2:guy would have just shot anybody Like. Do you think it was just because he does sound like a raging?
Speaker 3:sociopath. I guess the DOD policies prevent them from releasing information relating to the misconduct of low level employees or characterization of service at discharge. But I want to say, from what I know, he was other than honorably discharged, but don't quote me on that, but I do believe that that was the case. I do believe that information was released at some point. Thinking back about it, but yeah, I do think that there is a. There's enough that it makes a difference. There's enough police officers in our police departments who are simply looking to be, to have that type of power, to possess the type of power in which they can take somebody's life if they so choose or, if you know, if they wanted to, so that they can, you know, be abusive. I mean, all we have to look at is the domestic violence rates among police officers. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's just the reported, you know. So we're looking at the domestic violence rates of, you know, amongst police officers there. It tells, it tells a dramatic tale, Sure.
Speaker 2:Which we also see in the military too. Right so I you know, one of the problems is that our country or our culture, I should say rewards depravity. So, if you look at, I rewards depravity. So if you look at I just looked at the numbers the other day right so, the military convicts less than 10% of people who are accused of sexual assault. That's by the DOJ and the US Sentencing Commission. In 2021, 8.5% were convicted in trial, as opposed to 1.6% of federal offenders. But then, if you compare that to the amount of politicians that have been accused of sexual abuse or sexual assault, it was like 70 in one year. So not only do we not hold them accountable, we put them in public office, we put them in positions of power. And you know, look at all the people supporting Trump, like the guys that convicted you.
Speaker 2:Look at all the things he's been convicted of sexual assault and you've got big signs that say women for trump and I'm like what is going on, like we just reward this like toxic behavior so our society does not value women, uh, in any real fashion, and it's a, it's a historic, you know uh issue.
Speaker 3:it's a issue. Women are seen in this country a helpmate, as a maid, as a vessel to carry children for this romanticized idea of legacy. But I always argue that your legacy is not in how many children you have or what you're able to pass on to them in terms of monetary resources and things of that nature, even though you want to be able to make sure that your children are taken care of. Your legacy is how people remember you and how your children remember who you were as a human being. I think that those things are what is really important at the end of the day. How will, how will history remember you? I think is more important than you know how much money you had when you died. But they simply just see women, you know, as a means to an end, as a discardable tool, something that I can throw away once it served its purpose. I mean, we hear these red pill podcasters talk about how, once they're 35, even Donald Trump has been heard to say this on the Howard Stern show you know, after the 35 years old, you know they're washed up there. They're, you know, worthless. They're all demographics Black men, white men, so on and so forth support a man like Donald Trump is one. They want that type of power and influence. They don't want to feel mediocre. Two women are educated now in some demographics, more educated than the men you know. They make up large percentages of homeowners. They make up large percentages of head of household, college graduates, postgraduate degrees. A lot of women aren't looking to men as the as their future any longer. They're looking at their own future, and that's a threat to them, because now they're looking at themselves. And this is a problem with putting yourself arbitrarily at the top of a social hierarchy. Right, when you put yourself arbitrarily at the top of the social hierarchy and you don't succeed, you're not successful. You don't get the things that you believe that you're entitled to. You have to find somebody to blame. Oh well, it's women. Oh well, it's immigrants. Oh well, it's. You know it's. It's it's black people. Oh, it's, it's queers. You know, it's the queer community, it's all of these other people. It can't be me, because I'm entitled to this, because I'm a man and don't be a white man, because then I'm a white man. That's why we see suicide rates so high, especially, you know, in men and in white men, because when you arbitrarily place yourself in this position and you're not the part, you don't get the things that you believe you're entitled to right. It does something to you mentally, and so that's why we see these rollbacks of women's rights.
Speaker 3:People think that affirmative action was overturned. You know, for Black people it wasn't. It wasn't. That was the front, as I like to call it, but it was more because it benefited white women more than any other demographic. They don't want white women, you know, achieving these higher education degrees and going into the workforce and replacing men as CEOs or C-level positions. They want them in home. Overturning of Roe v Wade an attack on white women yet again. They, you know the Republican Party is pushing to end no-fault divorce Another attack on, you know, another attack on white women, specifically because they want them home and you know, having children that they don't necessarily want and raising families.
Speaker 2:Although I do think my stance on the whole Roe v Wade thing is. I think it's multifaceted because birth rates in this country have been going down and it seems like globally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the replacement theory yeah the great replacement theory, and they need bodies to feed the machine, and the best way to do that is to make it so that you can't have an abortion. I mean, I think that that's also part of what's happening too right, because it's very profitable. They pay taxes, you know, and unwanted children, we know they end up in like profit prisons, they end up in the drug world, they end up in the military and that's all the places we want them to be, so of course we're going to force people to have kids.
Speaker 2:You know it's awful.
Speaker 3:You would think they would just let you know more immigrants come to the country. You think that that would be you know what I'm saying like solve the problem right, and that's why I always thought that it was odd, because even Reagan understood that. Reagan understood that. You know, if you allow, he granted amnesty to over 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States and he advocated for opening the border both ways, because he understood that they come here for the first five years they can't receive any federal benefits of any kind, even if they're here for legal, under legal status. So they were paying into the system and getting essentially nothing in return, and so it was a net. It was a net positive, but now it's because the population of white people, specifically, is dwindling, and so the more brown people that are here, the less of a foothold they have on that social hierarchy that I was talking about.
Speaker 2:You want to hear an interesting thing. That happened to me. So in one of the classes that I teach there, we cover all like different topics racism, homophobia, sexism, ableism and I did not design the syllabus, so I want to say that right up front. But there's one exercise for homophobia where there's a couple of them that they can pick from. But one of them is that you can go to a public place, like a mall, with somebody of the same sex, hold hands and then kind of observe people's reactions to what happened.
Speaker 2:And I thought what was fascinating was I had two women in the class do it. So the first woman was white, the second one was a woman of color and they both went to the mall with another woman and they both held hands and they both had, you know, did the same thing. But their papers were really interesting and different. Because the woman who was white talked about how people were giving her dirty looks because she was in a same-sex relationship or they assumed she was in a same-sex relationship in a same-sex, or they assumed she was in a same-sex relationship. Nobody ever said anything to her, but that was her perception. The woman of color wrote a paper saying that she thought people were looking at her because she was in an interracial relationship and and not in a same-sex relationship. The the real interesting thing is nobody said anything to either one of, so it was all basically their own perspective how, how they you know how they kind of perceived things.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And you know that ties into a deeper issue in our country is that we know that we're always under the microscope of public perception. You know, we know that there's these social norms that you're just supposed to adhere to, but nobody, nobody, ever stops to ask themselves why, why do I adhere to these social norms, why do I believe these things? Why do I feel the way that I feel about? You know, x, y, z and much of my platform is specifically about that Asking the why. Why do you feel this way? Why do you believe this? You know, do you know the history of this specific thing? You know, do you know the history of this specific thing? You know, do you know the history of your culture specifically?
Speaker 2:Do you find most people don't care, though, like when you start to, because one of the things I've noticed a significant amount of is statements like I don't have time to deal with, that, I have too much on my plate. I can't. You know, I can't worry about everything. It's not something I have to deal with.
Speaker 3:I would say that people that are more right-leaning or haven't yet, you know, started their unlearning journey. Yeah, I would say that, you know they're more apprehensive about receiving new information, and it's that amygdala response that you know we had discussed earlier. So, yeah, I would say I would say so. I would say some people just are uninterested in hearing anything new or saying anything that goes against you know what they've been indoctrinated to believe. However, I will tell you that I mean, I can't even tell you how many people have sent me emails or direct messages.
Speaker 3:Or you know, I've joined my discord, or some people I've talked to in person that said I've changed, you know, the entirety of their worldview, and it's those instances that make me, you know that keep me going, so to speak, that make me feel like, ok, this is actually working, I'm actually making a difference. And, to be honest with you and I know this sounds selfish, but I've said this often on my platform publicly I don't do it for the people that follow me. Never was about them. It still isn't. I want my children to be able to look back 10, 15, 20 years from now and say well, that's who my dad was, that's what my dad believed in.
Speaker 2:I think your kids are very lucky to have you as a dad. I've seen your lives and I think you're an incredible person. I mean, you certainly have a lot of insight and I think I wish more people were like that, but I, you know it's. I don't know, maybe I'm just seeing a different side of it. Where did you ever see the show top chef?
Speaker 2:I'm going to use a reference from that yeah, yeah, I've seen so in one of the maybe I think like season three or season four they had all the kids. They had these kids come in and they showed them what chicken nuggets were made from.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you saw this yeah, yeah, yeah, so do you remember this, and they were like it's like you know all the leftovers and it's gross, it's nasty. And the kids were like, ew, nasty, gross. So then the the um. The goal was that they had to make healthier versions of chicken nuggets that would taste better. So the chefs all make them and the kids eat them and they're like what do you like better? And they're like the chicken nuggets. So they go back to the gross chicken nuggets Because, even though they know they're gross, they know what's in them, it's comfortable and they like it. And I think that is just an analogy for what, like a lot of people do, they're just comfortable.
Speaker 3:I've had, I've had those instances happen where, like people follow me for, you know, for weeks, if not months, and, you know, take in the information and then the moment that they're pressed, there's a misstep, because there's always going to be regression, because you're going from something that you've always known right to new information, and so there's going to be some regression. And when they're met with these obstacles, a lot of times they're like you know what? This is too hard. You know, I throw in the towel. I'm just going to go back to being who I was, because that's where I'm comfortable.
Speaker 3:And then, tying it back to the Sonia Massey thing, we've seen these things happen so many times within our society that people have essentially become desensitized to it. We'll talk about it for a couple of weeks. It's thoughts and prayers, there'll be some marches, so on and so forth. We'll see another school shooting, we'll see another mass shooting at a grocery store and then a month later, it's almost like it never happened. But the people who lost a loved one and lost a you know a family member, or lost a community member or what have you, you know they're forever left with that hole. But the rest of society moves on and, and it's it's very. You know, these, these, these things are very similar. Right, it's easier for me to just, you know, turn a blind eye to these things and essentially pretend like it never happened oh, that's terrible, I'm so sorry that happened and then go on with my life as if it never happened. And it's because we're so desensitized to it, it's because there's no real action taken and there's no movement that these things continue to happen.
Speaker 1:You're absolutely right, but I also have hope that when we're having these conversations, maybe we need to start teaching people how to be interrupters, the social skills that you need to get through that hard moment. That seems like really important, absolutely, and it goes back to what I was saying earlier.
Speaker 3:You're not going to grow in a place of comfortability, right, when you, when you stand stagnant. Even water dies when it's stagnant. You know what I mean. And so it's those stagnant places that people find themselves in where society dies. And so when people say, well, I'm a conservative, I always ask them where's conservatism ever been beneficial in the history of the world to any society? You romanticize these days of yesteryear, but we moved on from it for a reason because it was bad for somebody. Because it was bad for somebody. And so you know, we do have to keep having these conversations and having these progressive movements and somebody has to be a disruptor. But people are so fearful of the ostracization that comes with that right, they're so fearful of being an outcast within society. And I always tell people hey, listen, it's okay to let people go. You're arbitrarily born into a family, literally Like you were arbitrarily born into your family.
Speaker 3:If I have a family member and I do if I have a family member that's a Trump supporter, I'm gonna give them the opportunity right to sit down and, hey, let's try to unpack this, where is this coming from? But if you're insistent on supporting something that is going to harm other people in your family it may be even including yourself then you know I'm going to have to move on. I'm going to have to protect me.
Speaker 1:And I also think that shows like the Daily Show, that tape and your TikTok, some of the things I've seen that use humor to kind of break things up a little bit, but then you're still talking about really serious things Like I'm really interested in the different aspects of society we can use to really get that information out and change people's opinions.
Speaker 3:I think comedy has always been a great vehicle. Growing up, I used to watch a ton of comedians Richard Pryor, eddie Murphy and things of that nature and very often they talked about very real things that were going on in society.
Speaker 1:They were uncomfortable, so uncomfortable, super uncomfortable, exactly.
Speaker 3:That was super uncomfortable and sometimes I even had secondhand, not even necessarily embarrassment, but it just made me uncomfortable hearing the things I eat. You know, but it's, but it's so real. Now, I'm no comedian by any stretch, you know, but I think that that's a good vehicle. I think that music is a wonderful, amazing vehicle, you know, to to for, for change, and to relay messages. And then, you know, now we have. Now we have social media, which is a performance art in and of itself.
Speaker 2:Which also has a very dark side to it too. Well, absolutely Very dark side to it. Yeah, I mean, I've been spotted.
Speaker 3:I've had a SWAT team sent to my house. Seriously, oh, absolutely yeah, in 2022, like very shortly after I had been on TikTok for maybe about a year. I had to move. It was so bad.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:That's awful.
Speaker 2:I mean, from what I've seen, the stuff that I've watched, that you've done, I mean nothing would even remotely elicit that type of a response.
Speaker 3:And the content that I make has always been relatively the same, and the content that I make has always been relatively the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, oh God, that's terrible. From being a therapist and like listening to people and listening to people's stories, one of the things I've become acutely aware over the past couple of years, especially since Trump's been in office the first time, is that people are fundamentally running on fear. Absolutely Everybody is afraid of something.
Speaker 2:Right like no matter where you fall on the political spectrum, no matter what your demographic group is, everybody is just in this chronic state of like my rights are going to get taken away, something's going to be taken away from me, which is why I started this podcast, because I really do think we have created a culture of ptsd in this country and instead of people recognizing that I know and and I do not blame people for this, I really don't we are finding ways to make people at fault right Like so, instead of you know, saying like you know, it's like living in a house with a rapist right Like you can't work on the trauma until you get out of the house that the rapist is in.
Speaker 2:But the problem is the country is the rapist right, so the country continues to rape everybody over and over and over again. And I think one thing we know from history is that governments are evil Fundamentally. History has proved this time and time again. I don't care what country it is, governments are evil and not the people. The people aren't, but the people become vehicles and like pawns for the government, and a lot of us are just. We've fallen into that. Some of us are kind of getting out of it.
Speaker 3:I might have to push back on that a little bit, a little bit.
Speaker 3:And that's the reason I say that right, we act as if this, as if the government is some autonomous being that you know we're like a man behind a curtain, the Wizard of Oz of somebody we don't know, but it's the thing is we don't, as a citizenry, we don't actively participate in the government. We're not going and voting in the local elections, we're not going and voting in the midterms as a collective unit. As a matter of fact, in the United States of America, we have the lowest participation rate in terms of voting of any other industrialized nation, and that's a lot of. The reason why the government has been able to exert an exact so much power over the citizenry is because we've relinquished our power to the government. That's totally fair. People in place that we wouldn't have these, you know, these same social outcomes that we're experiencing have these, you know, these same social outcomes that we're experiencing.
Speaker 2:I think that's totally fair. I just wonder if it's a case of learned helplessness, where people have just been beaten down so much that they, you know, like one of the things I see all the time right now, particularly with this election, is with, like Jill Stein, for example. Right so Jill Stein is the only candidate who isn't fully backed by AIPAC and isn't, you know, funding this kind of ongoing thing. But the message is don't vote for her. Your vote's a wasted vote. She's never going to win. Stop voting for her. You've got to vote for this one or that one, and that's it. There's no other option. And they're pushing that themselves, but they're not on ballots. They're trying to get them off the ballots.
Speaker 3:Here's an issue with Jill Stein. She shows up every four years and runs and says, hey, you know, I can fix these things. You don't have to vote for these other parties, so on and so forth. But here's the problem, right, why isn't there any Green Party members in the local seats or in, you know, state level seats or in federal level seats? And that's the problem. If she were to be elected president, she has no allies within the established government and that leaves her on an island. How can you possibly get legislation passed, how can you possibly push forward your agenda without people on all of the other levels of government? And so if they truly wanted, you know, a seat at the table, so to speak, then you're trying to get things done, and that's, that's been the, the ultimate failure of Jill Stein and all these other third party candidates, the Green Party and so on and so forth, the Workers Party, unicorn Parties, and so on and so on and so forth. These people don't have, you know, an established base within the rest of our, you know, rest of our government. That's a great point, that's a really I can't argue with that. That's a great point, and so. But I, and I don't think, I don't think that people take it's more like a popularity contest or, you know, rooting for your, your favorite sports team.
Speaker 3:At this point, I don't think that people are taking this political landscape seriously enough. I don't think that they're really aware of the dangers that exist, and I know it sounds like fear mongering, but fascism is a real possibility. We see it taking place with Viktor Orban. We see it taking place in Italy. Right, they quite literally elected a fascist leader, you know, a vocally and outwardly fascist leader. You know we have Trump saying that he's going to grant full amnesty, or immunity, which is essentially amnesty, but full immunity to police. So the things like this that would just happen with Sonia Massey would just be, you know, a Tuesday, and that person would be able to move on and potentially, you know, cause the same harm to another family, and so I think, I think that you know this election 2016 should have been the wake up call.
Speaker 3:Should have been, but this election should be the wake up call. It should be the wake up call that, hey, if you want change, you're going to have to put in the work. If you want change in the police departments, if you want change, you know, in the schools. If you want change in health, in the health care system, if you want change in your pay and, you know, in the affordable housing, if you want change, you're going to have to put in the work. And if you're not willing to put in the work then I mean you really don't have space to complain.
Speaker 2:So what would you tell the average person to do?
Speaker 3:that Like when you're saying, like, put in work, like what would the average person do the average person should be making sure that they know who's running for local offices. Who's running for sheriff? Is there judges? Do we vote for judges in my municipality? Who's on my school board? Who is on the zoning commission right? Who is running for all of these local offices? What are their stances? Have they held an office before? If so, what legislation did they pass? What good have they done for the community? You know, do their values align with me? How are they going to help me and the people that I love and care about, the people I share community with?
Speaker 3:And then, once you've established, you know your local municipality, right now you have a field by which you can farm to put somebody on the state level seats right. And then, once you have a field by which you can farm, to put somebody on the state level seats Right. And then, once you have your state level established, then you have a field by which you can put people in the federal level seats. You know your House of Representatives and your Senate and now we have a president that we can put into. You know, into office that serves the people and not major corporations. You know into office that serves the people and not major corporations, you know, and not just the wealthy, not just the upper 1% or the upper quintile of society, and that's what I would advocate for.
Speaker 3:It's not about, you know, democrat and Republican. It's not about conservative and liberal. It's about who is going to serve your best interest and the people that you love and you know in the community in which you exist. And so, yeah, I mean that would be the advice that I would give you. It's got to start, if you want. The Republican Party has been working on this for 50 plus years Changing voting districts, stripping our constitution of rights, the Shelby versus Holder, which removed section four and section five of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. What made a huge difference? Over 1,000 polling locations closed across America day one, all in minority communities. If voting voting didn't matter, why would they go to such lengths to prevent people from doing so? You know these voter id laws and everything you're saying.
Speaker 2:I agree with everything and I think it's fundamentally important for that to happen. I just wish people could come together to do it as a, as a group right, like as a. So I mean, I don't know about every state I grew, grew up in Rhode Island and Cork and tell you this like Rhode Island, in terms of the political atmosphere is there's almost never a choice. It's just like you're getting the same person every year. Sheldon Whitehouse tried to pass, or he put forth a bill to try to make term limits for Supreme Court justices, which I think is a great idea, but he's been in office for 22 years and nobody ever runs against him, right? So like it's, it's you know, and I think again particularly, yeah, that's the other thing.
Speaker 3:People aren't again not not participating in the political process. Why aren't we encouraging people who do have great ideas, you know, who are respected members of the community, to run uh for political office? And putting our energy and our time and our resources behind these people.
Speaker 1:So I grew up in Rhode Island, moved to Philadelphia, lived in Philly for about 20 years and have just recently come back to Rhode Island and in the small town that I live in, everybody accepts that there's so much political corruption in the town. It's just accepted. And there was one um, female, uh, person of color who I just adored and she was like I hate to say this, but she was the token person on the city council, but she was so smart and, just, you know, showed up at events and really cared about people and they squashed her and she ended up resigning because she felt so targeted by the people on city council and it was so disheartening to see that happen to such a good person Like. Those are the people that I want to see running in politics and that and again, particularly this, you know rhode island is.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've ever been there, but rhode island is really passing through, but I've been. You probably blinked your eye and you were through it, right, like everybody knows each other, right, so like it is probably I mean they joke that's the most corrupt state in the country and I actually would 100% believe this but there have been really great people who have run, that have been threatened, harassed, attacked and they give up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's you know. We see that happen and I wish there was a way to fix that.
Speaker 3:Again, it's going to take enough people causing good trouble. It's going to have to be a group of people willing to be disruptors. Here's the truth of the matter, and it's going to sound harsh, but it is the truth. Whatever it is that you believe in, you have to be willing to die for it in order to do it. You have to be willing to die for it in order to do it. It's a harsh reality, but it is absolutely the truth, and I don't think that enough people are willing to martyr themselves in order to affect real change in society or in the country. But I mean, that is the absolute truth. Whatever it is, that you have to be willing to die for that thing.
Speaker 2:Well, that makes me think of Aaron Bushnell, right, like, I mean, with what. You know what he did and you know how effective was that, right, right, which is a shame because obviously he clearly had a very good moral structure. If you know he was saying like I can't do this anymore and this is like horrible, but on some level that was a waste of life. Right, right, right, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2:And and he died for what he believed in, you know so I I get what you're saying, but I also think people need to be to stay alive, to like keep fighting right, so right right, and I'm not suggesting that anybody martyred, oh I know, I know, yeah, but but I mean, that's like the harsh reality.
Speaker 3:You have to find enough people that are fed up, enough, right, and here's the problem, here's the thing that I worry about the most. I think that something catastrophic is going to have have to happen, right, remember I said earlier, people don't change experiences. Events change people. 9-11 is a perfect example of that. You know, america kind of came together and I use that term very loosely because unfortunately it came together against right, a demographic of people, essentially, in a lot of cases, but America came together for just a moment Because they felt like the sanctity of America and our safety had been had been.
Speaker 2:You know, the veil had been pierced. Right, you are right, there was. It was a twofold thing because, although America did come together, crimes against and hate crimes against Muslim Americans went up 400 percent against Muslim Americans went up 400% Absolutely, because they need a target. There's always going to be a target group that suffers versus the real enemy, which is the people making these choices. Right?
Speaker 3:The sad thing is I was watching a video earlier today and it was on Adult Swim. It's called Soft.
Speaker 2:God, I haven't seen that in years.
Speaker 3:What is the name of it? Hold on, I have to look it up now because I want to know what it's called. But again, they're having, they're having these young men go that are gamers Soft Focus is what it's called Adult swim soft focus. They're having these, these, these men and I say young men they're probably not all that young, but they're gamers and they're having them watch, you know, use these VR goggles to see this man being sexually perverted to a woman who's coming in for an interview, and in the VR goggles they're the woman. It's like you know, pov or whatever. They're the woman who's come in for the interview and they're seeing this man be, I mean, you know, disgusting beyond measure. And then they start asking him questions afterwards about the experience.
Speaker 3:And they asked one of the young men do you think that men that behave in that manner, you know that abuse their power, who are you know, who sexually harass women and things of that nature? Do you think they should be in positions of power? And the young man said absolutely not. And then a light bulb went off and he's like but I support Trump and it had absolutely nothing to do with Donald Trump, nothing. The experiment had nothing to do with it. And he was like are you trying to, you know, you guys trying to figure out, you know if Trump supporters blah, blah, blah, or you know, would lean this way? Or find you know if Trump supporters blah, blah, blah, or you know would, would lean this way, or find you know, said thing disturbing, and so on and so forth. And she was like not at all, you like, you just did that on your own.
Speaker 2:But did it? Did it change their perception, their perspective?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Unfortunately no, and that's cognitive dissonance. Right, right, yep, that's the cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 2:Particularly with thoughts, because, because you know, the death of a thought is incredibly traumatic, because it makes them reevaluate their whole, you know, versus like a relationship. I mean obviously when someone dies but when your whole basis of belief is gone, it's shattering. So people are willing to go as far as they can to push that envelope, to believe what they believe, until it gets to a breaking point. Some people don't have you know, but some people do, and that's the scary part.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like that's the truly terrifying thing, because I mean, I'm sure you know this there's people on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and X and Reddit defending what happened to Sonia Massey.
Speaker 2:I've seen them and they're disgusting, actually defending it absolutely disgusting.
Speaker 3:It's indefensible and it's the fact that they believe this stuff is and it's all, and it's the fact that they believe this stuff is and it's, and it's all demographics. It's black people, it's white people, it's Latin people. You know, it's all demographics. That is the, and I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to lean back into Joseph Goebbels again. You know, ministry of propaganda for Adolf. He said that the rank and file citizen, your average citizen, is relatively unintelligent, right, and so your messaging has to be short and simple and repetitive. Lock her up, you know. Make America great again.
Speaker 2:It's brainwashing tactics, it's 100% brainwashing. There was I wish I could remember the name of it. There was a documentary I saw on Amazon Prime about the Holocaust and I forgot what particular camp it was. But when the allied forces came in there was a town right next door, so I wish I could remember the name of it. So they brought all the people in from the town to show them what was happening in the camps and it's on film.
Speaker 2:So you know, you see them kind of walking in and it's like these women in fur coats and these guys all dressed up and you know they're smiling and laughing and happy. And then they get into the camp and they see what's going on and within seconds they're vomiting and like crying and it's like you knew this was happening. You just pretended you didn't know it was happening, but when you see it in front of your face, you obviously you can't, you can't deny it and I think that's again, that's what the large majority of people do. They're just trying to blind eye to it until they decide, I'm on yeah, until they can't, and then it, you know, it's like this.
Speaker 2:Well, how did I, how did I not know what you didn't know?
Speaker 3:lord floyd was an awakening was an awakening because it was in 4k. It was an awakening for a, you know, a massive amount of uh, white american citizens who, in their mind, had believed, because they didn't see any burning crosses in front of anybody's home and that the triple K wasn't marching down the middle of town where they live, that racism was no longer an issue. And then they watched George Floyd happen and it did awaken a lot of people. And, plus, we were captive in the moment right. Most people were home because of covid and so there was nowhere for you to go and it was on the, you know the 24 hour news cycle. So it's so, it's all you saw, um. The problem with that is right is that the counter narratives, um are equally as strong as what you saw, what they saw visually, because it's what they want to believe.
Speaker 2:Like, when you want to believe something, you're going to believe anything if it matches that narrative.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so even in that moment if you were horrified, mortified even right by what you saw and like man, that's so wrong. I can't believe he would do something like that. And then you get the counter narrative from Fox News, from Newsmax, from OAN, and they're telling you oh well, you know, he was arrested for X, y, z 20 years ago. You know he was, you know he was on drugs. He was, you know he was on drugs, he was a bad person. It doesn't matter if he died, as if that gives justification for a police officer to take a life.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Did you hear?
Speaker 3:about speaking of that. Did you hear about that person, that Palestinian person that was raped to death?
Speaker 2:I don't believe that I hear in the United States. No, no, and I don't know that he was raped to death with a metal rod. I believe it was, and I think the crime was that he threw a stone at a tank and the people there was multiple IDF soldiers that participated in this and they were arrested. But then the protesters were like they didn't do anything wrong, let them out. So they let them out, and now they're justifying it, saying that they had a reason to rape him and that it was completely justified because they have a right to defend themselves. When I tell you that people are believing this, it is I just like I have no words for it. To be honest with you.
Speaker 3:So I'm often asked this question Well, can you say anything positive about Donald Trump? Can you say anything? You know that he did that was good and I said absolutely, absolutely, I can't. He lifted the curtain.
Speaker 2:Right, oh yes, absolutely, Absolutely.
Speaker 3:I can. He lifted the curtain Right. Oh, yes, absolutely, yep, he lifted the curtain. He exposed who we truly are as a nation. He, like he, let us know that racism and xenophobia and homophobia and transphobia and misogyny are alive and well and that these are real issues at the core of who we are as a society. You know, he lifted the curtain, he showed. You know, not only us, but the rest of the world. You know who America, what America truly is, that it's not this, you know. You know bastion of morality, you know, and ethics, but that there's a disturbing and dark underbelly that exists and needs to be addressed or it's going to be the death of us.
Speaker 2:Jones, I could talk to you all night, but unfortunately we do have to wrap up. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:I just looked at the time and I was like, oh my God, we're going at 90 minutes. So thank you so much. I really appreciate that you reached out to me on the podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to meet you and work with you. And again, thank you so much. And Cora also thank you for the research and being here in Julia's absence. And if people have any questions, do you want me to put your TikTok Because they're right up for the show? Do you want me to put your TikTok handle?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Jonesx is my TikTok handle and you can find all my links to everything else through there Instagram, youtube, twitch and the like. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:And again for all of those people listening. If there's any topics you want us to talk about, just shoot me an email. Thank you so much. Have a great week, everybody, and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
