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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 2 E 22 Social Media Pressure on Modern Mothers
Picture yourself in the quiet, rural expanse of Connecticut when an unexpected visitor arrives, stirring up a series of chilling events. In our latest episode of United States of PTSD, Matt takes us through his harrowing encounter with a mysterious car in his driveway, a cryptic note, and a police investigation that uncovered connections to an alleged kidnapping. The plot thickens as the police revisit Matt with startling news, tying the incident to his own last name. Feel the anxiety and suspense as we navigate through the layers of this unsettling story, offering a stark reminder of the hidden dangers lurking in seemingly safe, quiet corners of America.
Shifting gears, we dive into the world of momfluencers with our insightful guest Cora. These social media mavens have turned motherhood into a profitable brand, but at what cost? We explore the often unrealistic ideals they promote, the blurred line between genuine advice and paid promotions, and the broader implications for society. As Cora shares her personal experiences, we touch on the rise of "wine mom" culture and how momfluencers have evolved from early bloggers to Instagram stars. This segment sheds light on the pressures they create and the potential harm their curated lives can inflict on everyday mothers.
Our conversation takes a serious turn as we discuss the exploitation of children in entertainment and on social media. From the protections afforded by the Coogan Law to the stark lack of regulations for children featured in online content, we address the critical need for legal safeguards. Hear about high-profile cases of abuse and neglect, such as Ruby Frankie's "Eight Passengers" YouTube channel, where the facade of a perfect family hid severe mistreatment. This episode underscores the importance of protecting children's rights and the ethical concerns of commodifying their lives, urging listeners to reconsider the impact of their digital footprints.
How do predators find children online? - Beau Biden Foundation
What you need to know about “sharenting” | UNICEF Parenting
15 Top Mom Influencers to Follow in 2024 (taggbox.com)
15 Mom Influencers to Follow (newmodernmom.com)
17 Black Motherhood Bloggers to Follow on Instagram (parents.com)
What are “momfluencers” and what do they say about American motherhood? | Vox
Sounds Like A Cult Podcast Series - Apple Podcasts
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody, this is Matt and welcome back to the United States of PTSD, joining Julie and I today. We have Cora back with us today for this episode.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone, and today you want me to introduce Matt, or you want to introduce so before I do want to tell this really funny story, right, that happens yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, I think it is so out there and bizarre that it's just worthy of sharing. So, as you both know, I live in the middle of nowhere right Connecticut, and my, my driveway is like an eighth of a mile from the main road about give or take, so you can't even see my house from the road. And I came home from work at eight o'clock at night and it was just that morning my dad was giving me a lecture about not locking my doors. So I get home and there's a car in my driveway and the lights in my house are on. Yeah, that's exactly so. I'm like, oh my God, what is going on? So then at first I'm thinking it's my dad. I'm like no, it's not my daddy, but he called me. And then I see there's a note sticking in the door. So I get out of the car and I look at the note and the note says in a pen that was running out of ink, sorry, car broke down. And right then. And there I was like, okay, this didn't happen because, again, like I said, my driver is really far from the road and it's all. It's uphill, so nobody would have ever broken down like in my driveway or close to it.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh God, what do I do? Cause you know, I just I haven't been here long. I know we don't have a police department, so I call the state police. They come out and they have me wait at the bottom of the driveway and I think they were great. They were here in like less than five minutes and there was three of them and they asked me if I had a camera and I was like, oh my god, I forgot I do have cameras because I just wasn't thinking. So I give them the camera footage and they're looking at the camera footage and, uh, they're like they walk away because obviously they were calling a different department. They come back and they said, okay, the people on your video are wanted and they didn't know what they were wanted for. So they had to clear my property, you know, and I have, you know, guns out through like the house, the yard, the barn, like all sorts of stuff. I think they even went through the woods and then the the local police were it actually did happen when they were wanted, came out, and at this point I don't know why they're wanted.
Speaker 2:And you know, of course, the whole process took like I don't know like three or four hours for, like, everything to be done. They towed the car, um, they took, they took, they took the note. And then, you know, I said, well, I touched the note and actually started one of the state troopers. So they said you know, we may need you to come down to fingerprint, you to do like elimination fingerprints. I mean like seriously, this is why I moved out of the city, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So then the next morning I wake up and I go onto the website for the local town because I want to just put like hey, this is what happened. And the first thing that popped up on the website was alleged kidnapping victim found. And then I read the whole article and it's the car that's on my property and the description of the people matched the description of the people on the camera. So I was like I cannot believe this just happened to me. And then today, to make it even worse, this happened today, the police showed up at my door again and they're like Are you sure you don't recognize her? I'm like no, they're like you don't recognize him. I'm like no, not at all. And then they say well, the she has the same last name, you do. So are you sure you're not related to her and I'm like oh my God, of course I'm not related to her.
Speaker 3:But like what are the chances as well?
Speaker 2:What are the chances? This is my life. This is like an average day in my life, by the way, so I'm not even kidding. So hopefully, hopefully, it's all set now. I mean, they did say that they arrested him, um for domestic violence charges, because the article said that there were two men that assaulted a woman and like, threw her in the car and they got into a high-speed chase and then the police stopped chasing them because they went through a school zone, the car had damage to it and, of course, that was the car that was on my property.
Speaker 3:It's's just wild, wild, wild so were they like inside your house at all?
Speaker 2:Oh, good question. So no, I think what happened was I left the lights on Um, cause they were. They were pretty confident they didn't go in my house and it did happen to be in the room that I was working in, so I probably did leave the lights on, but they were on my property for a good 40 minutes and another car picks them up. So they certainly, certainly they had called somebody to come and pick them up, but just oh and then and then and then. For those of you that live in the middle of nowhere, you'll appreciate this, uh, it'll certainly raise your anxiety. One of the state troopers said to me although, because apparently this corner of connecticut has the highest crime in all of the state, which I would have never guessed, not my town but like, more of like, the partner Rhode Island. They said, properties like yours are ideal for place for criminals to drop off cars and bodies. And I was like, oh, cool, thanks, I won't be anxious about that at all just something else to add to the list to freak out about.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh crazy.
Speaker 2:So I just I had to share that because it was just so wild and over the top thank goodness, though, that you have cameras on your property.
Speaker 3:I know and you know seriously.
Speaker 2:My brother said to me you have really bad luck. And I said or I have really good luck because imagine if I was home. I mean I probably would have went outside, or if they rang the doorbell, and god only knows if they were violent or if they had weapons on them.
Speaker 3:You know that's just wild, but damn I know when you were first telling this story, matt, all like literally, my mind was like how are the cats? Are the cats? Okay? Were the cats harmed at all?
Speaker 2:no, the cats were fine, everything was fine oh my gosh everything was fine and the police honest to god, the police were super great. I ended up giving them thank you cards and everything. I went down to the police station. They were just, they were really great. I mean, it was such a stressful scenario, you know.
Speaker 3:I'm blown away, I'm speechless. Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine you're saying this and I'm like I don't even know how I would react.
Speaker 2:I would be freaking out story for the week, all right so funny and slightly terrifying and just for the listeners. I didn't tell either one of them because I wanted their real like. I wanted their authentic reaction when I told the story because it's just, it's so wild like I if I didn't have it on video and if I wasn't there I wouldn't believe it myself yeah but anyway. So, julia, you wanted to talk about mom influencers today, or toxic moms, and you're running the show today, you and Cora.
Speaker 3:Oh, so much pressure, so much pressure. Yes, I wanted to talk today about mom influencers. I had brought up this topic because I am on social media and, as a woman, started to get all this, these videos about moms starting a family, being domesticated as a woman, those fun things I felt like it was an appropriate topic to talk about. Just as momfluencers, as the coin is termed they are really presented and curated. They curate themselves in a way that are showing an ideal life and ideal parenting and stuff like that, when in actuality that's not the reality of it and I would argue it's extremely damaging. To start off, I just wanted to start with the definition of a momfluencer. So if any of our listeners are unsure of what that means I've never heard of that before and stuff like that they can. Cora, do you mind just explaining what like a momfluencer would be?
Speaker 1:So I liked the definition by Sarah Peterson. She's a writer who wrote the book Momfluencer. She says someone who has monetized their maternal identity on social media, and then it also goes on to say it's a social construct by marketers, by tech companies and moms to sell products via links, codes and advertising, while promoting an ideal about motherhood, parenting and perfection. Biggest surprise when I started doing the research for this episode was just that they are really making money, or people are making money off of these things. Making money or people are making money off of these things.
Speaker 3:they are really like creating characters of themselves and content yeah, I think, with the new age of technology, that's really become prevalent within the last like 10 to 15 years so like early 2010s to now, in the year of 2024, there's really been this uptick of things being what I'm called sponsored content, meaning that the videos that they post, or the Instagram things that they post, or the Facebook posts that they create, they are paid by those companies to promote those products and say that they use these products in their everyday life.
Speaker 3:Or this herbal medication is, like really beneficial for my kids and they never get sick if I use this. So there's really this gray area. As a consumer of social media, or mom influencers or anything of you're really unsure if the products that they're talking about they're really selling to you and are they actually using these things. Or, when the camera shuts down and their internet personality is turned off, are they actually using these products or are they doing the complete opposite of what they preach? That thought process, though, takes a little bit of critical thinking on our end to realize that influencers mom influencers, specifically, specifically other influencers are really only showing you part of their life and curating themselves to look a certain way and to be a brand essentially a brand, yeah, you could argue, Julia, because you know, as I'm listening to you, this is really.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously we are talking about mom influencers, but I agree with you. I think it steps outside of that realm to like all influencers, all influencers, because we were just talking about another influencer who was publicly shown to be funded by a certain campaign that was not disclosing that. And I've seen other influencers selling products that it's it's clearly snake oil and it doesn't. Whatever they're selling Certainly doesn't. There's no proof at all that the product works, and I've reported those numerous times for false information, because you can do that and they just keep coming back up. Yeah, they don't even.
Speaker 3:I don't even think they take it seriously when I think of that, it's really popular within the beauty industry. I personally don't wear a lot of makeup, but I love watching videos of other people doing makeup, but there's really this popularity specifically within the beauty industry. But again, as we mentioned, like, it really expands to all kinds of influencers, not only on TikTok, not only on Instagram, but like every kind of social media of like. You're really unsure of like how much they're getting paid for this. Are they being truthful in their like review or them using the product, or are they using the product, not even using the product, and then tossing it once they're done with the video, and getting thousands of dollars for them to create a 30 second video of it?
Speaker 2:that's the, that's the world of marketing. I think even before social media was prevalent, there's a. There was a video floating around of some show where one of the hosts was like eating something that they made on the show and they said, oh, this is really great. And then the camera cut off and he spits it out and says that's the worst garbage I've ever tasted in my life. That type of stuff, I think, has been going on well before social media. Just the prevalence of it now and the accessibility is so high that it's the market is getting bigger for stuff like that. Yeah, cora, I think I'm curious. Cora, as a, as a mom, what's your exposure to like? How did you find out about the kind of mom influencers and what's your take on it?
Speaker 1:I'm actually an older mom. So I'm 42 now, my kids are 10 and 12 and I really have never gone down the rabbit hole of TikTok. I'm 42 now, my kids are 10 and 12. And I really have never gone down the rabbit hole of TikTok. I'm always curious, but I just haven't. I'm not a user, so and this is going to make me sound really old, but I think the only thing I really do is Facebook. So when I started doing the research for this episode was really the first time I heard about momfluencers. But that doing the research kind of led me down into the world of wine mom culture, which we can talk a little bit about, and that's something that I think happened about 10 or 15 years ago and that was certainly prevalent when my kids were little. So the wine mom culture is kind of it started out as a meme.
Speaker 2:Is that really?
Speaker 1:how it started out was a meme. Yeah well, one marketing exec posted oh no, he made a website called wine mom and it got so many hits like right away that people just got really excited about it. And that's kind of when memes of, with the wine mom hashtag and things all about like parenting is so hard that you deserve a drink at the end of the day, or parenting is so hard that it's okay to have a drink with your friends at the playground, or, you know, it's okay to go meet your friends at the bar for a drink with the kids. So when my kids were born in 2012, I lived in Philadelphia and I had been like a bar goer before that. But I think two things happened Smoking inside bars had been banned for a good like five years at that point.
Speaker 1:And then the wine mom culture kind of like caught on and as I, as I, was like parenting my newborn baby, I remember friends being like oh, come to the bar with the baby, it's so cute, you know. And all of a sudden like going to a bar with the baby in the pad, in the little carrier, seeing other children at the bar, and then all of a sudden, like the bars kind of opened up more, like even now you see it with breweries, like they have lunchtime specials for the family. You know, like it's okay to bring young people, young kids, I think it's dangerous, you know. I think it's like it's dangerous on a couple of different levels, but I remember just as a young mom being like, is this okay, is this not okay? And I would only have like a couple of sips of something and then feel like I don't want to be here anymore.
Speaker 3:You know so many thoughts that, as being someone who my mom was really in like was a mom to me and my younger brothers when the wine mom thing was happening, I remember when you had first started talking about it, I remember she had gotten this plaque as a gift from like one of her other friends or like as a teacher's gift. As my mom's a teacher, she had gotten like a classroom gift and it was like, oh my God, my kids are going to make me drink, or something like that.
Speaker 3:And it was like funny at the time, ha ha ha ha ha. But like looking back at it and I remember my mom was like really weird that she had gotten that gift and she was like, I don't like this, like it makes me feel kind of icky and at the age I mean, I was only like well 15 at the time, so like I didn't really think much of it. But like looking back I'm like, oh my gosh, totally not Okay. And then when you had started talking about like going to the bar with your like baby and stuff like that, I automatically thought of breweries. You go to any brewery. Now it's families, there's kids running around everywhere and it's just so normalized and it's turned into this thing of like oh yeah. Well, this is where the family hangout is now, specifically for moms.
Speaker 3:Having a newborn child is so polarizing and you feel a sense I mean I'm speaking as someone who hasn't had a child yet, but like from working with clients who are new parents and talking to friends who have had children, there seems to be this sense of isolation after having a newborn child and really creating a community quote unquote wine moms or like wine mom culture or something like that that gives new moms a sense of community, which they are like wanting and really needing at that moment, but not also discussing the negatives of drinking every day and drinking excessively every day, and how you can really form a dependence on alcohol for doing that for an extended period of time. But as women, women are not seen as alcoholics. When you picture an alcoholic in your mind, you're not thinking of a woman, you're not thinking of a new mom, so they really fall on hidden eyes. Matt, do you have any thoughts about this? Because you work specifically with substance use?
Speaker 2:Well, and with my mom and with pregnant postpartum women. I think what's everything you said is true, the one, the one thing I would add to it is that women are also. Women experience organ damage and body damage quicker than men do. From the same amount of drinking.
Speaker 2:That's really important. Something I would tell clients all the time when they would ask about drinking during pregnancy is that I mean, obviously there's lots of women who drink before they even know they're pregnant. They might, you know, they'll find out they're six, seven weeks pregnant, but they may have been drinking for the past couple of weeks, is I will say, well, you know, there are people who have, and I've seen this. There are people who have drank throughout their entire pregnancy and their child did not end up with fetal alcohol syndrome or any issues. But then there were other people who drank a few times throughout their pregnancy, did end up with children that had either fetal alcohol syndrome or or other issues. The reality is, according to the, the FDA the last time I checked I mean, sorry, the CDC the last time I checked there's no safe amount of alcohol to be consumed during pregnancy. And the reality is is if you don't drink at all during pregnancy, there's a 0% chance your child is going to have fetal alcohol syndrome. So that's you know what I always tell people like, if you, there are certainly people who could drink and and kind of like, get away with it, but if you know, do you really want to take that risk.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, the podcast that you had sent Julia, I forgot the name of it. It was about wine moms. What's the name of the podcast?
Speaker 3:It's called sounds like a cult and it is by the author, amanda Montel. She has written two books that I have read. I highly recommend her as an author and I have recently started listening to the podcast, like within the last month, and I love it.
Speaker 2:So I'll back up what Julia said. What I thought was really fascinating was the discussion about how, again once we care more about the child when it's in utero than we do once the child's born. So you know, here we are trying to control what a pregnant woman takes into her body, but the minute the baby is born, I think, as she said on the podcast, people are giving moms in the hospital champagne, wine like bottles, right. And I remember, you know, hearing women talking about how to drink while nursing, so you know they would drink in a particular time frame so they could not have the alcohol go through the breast milk. The amount of the importance that we place on alcohol as a society is kind of horrifying actually.
Speaker 3:That's exactly what I was going to say, matt. It's like the fact that thinking about this because our relationship with alcohol in general is a societal issue and how we view alcohol is really a societal issue but like the fact that if you, as a new mom, we're like to turn down wine or a drink or something like that, there's no, it's very rare for someone to just leave it and move on. It's usually well, why aren't you drinking? There's usually there has to be something wrong in others minds of like if you turn down a drink, or if you turn down a drink one week and then the next week you're like I'll have one, it's all of a sudden like what's changed. It's really the shaming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and interestingly enough, especially if you're a woman and somebody asks you if you want to drink and you say no, the first question most people will ask is are you pregnant? Because for some reason, that is the only valid reason to not drink.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everything else becomes a pressure point. Why don't you want to drink? And they'll continue asking questions.
Speaker 3:Now when.
Speaker 2:I hear somebody say that that's just my. You know my background. If I hear somebody say they're not going to drink, my first thought is are they in recovery? That's literally my first thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I want to be cognizant of that too.
Speaker 3:But I think it's so interesting because we don't, as a culture, we don't do that with any other kind of drug. If you were to offer someone like marijuana, for example, or like a cigarette or a nicotine, and if they're to turn that down, it's not like well, what's wrong? It's just automatically assumed. Okay, they don't participate in that and it is what it is. But, like with alcohol, there really is this assumption of like if you are not consuming, there's something wrong, or you're trying to have a baby or whatever else.
Speaker 1:Well, I would say that that's kind of how it used to be with nicotine and, just in terms of like, when I used to be around my family members who were a lot older than I was, if you said no to a cigarette that was like taboo, you know, and I think maybe the generation before, especially with men. So I think that that's an area where we can like look at how the culture shifted in the early eighties, late seventies, like cigarette smoking was still so huge, but it's like one of those things that people didn't think bars would ever ban smoking, and then they did.
Speaker 2:So as a as a former smoker myself, I can tell you I certainly did not think, when they banned smoking out of all those places, that they would ever ban it. I do I. When you talk about that, cora, I still think cigarettes are the same way, or at least with e-cigarettes. I can give you an example. When I quit smoking, I was working in a treatment center and there was one day where I was having a craving and I said to one of the case managers that works there, wow, I'm really having a craving to smoke. And she said to me now the case managers that works there, wow, I'm really having a craving to smoke. And she said to me now again, remember, this is a treatment center. She said to me we'll just go have one, it shouldn't be that bad.
Speaker 2:And I looked at her and I said I cannot believe. You just told me to do that. And she's like well, it's just, it's not a big deal. I'm like it is a big deal. So I would argue it still happens in terms of both cigarettes. And well, probably not so much cigarettes anymore but e-cigarettes, because it's very trendy and a lot of younger people are smoking, but they're like marijuana. We talked about that on another episode. They're all becoming incredibly profitable and I don't necessarily know that, with the taxes that are on them, that there is any true desire for the country to get people to quit because of the revenue that's generated by keeping people addicted.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's. That's extremely fair. Talking about the generational difference, looking at substance use, going back to mom influencers and how really mom influencers and how that developed just within America specifically. I'm sure that it is a bit like it's very similar for other countries, but in America specifically, cora did some amazing research on like, where momfluencers developed and started, and everything Seems that the start of it was in the early 2000s, like around 2005,.
Speaker 3:That area, where momfluencers were mainly blogging there wasn't really any social blogging was the first form of social media that became available on the internet. There was no photos, but it was also very real and unfiltered for those moms and it was mainly used as like complaining about how difficult new motherhood is, which I would argue is a benefit because it provides the sense of community for new mothers who may be feeling really isolated because they are home taking care of a newborn child. It really provided this sense of community for them. But so that was early 2000s to like. 2010 was really when that started. Cora, do you mind talking about the change from blogging to more of like, instagram and other forms of social media?
Speaker 1:The one thing I will say about the blogging. It's interesting that that was like the first part of this because when you think about it, this was like people who exposed for the first possibly for the first time just how awful and hard those first few months of parenting can be, or postpartum like. That was one of the first times in public people started talking about postpartum depression. So I really do give those people credit for coming out and putting publishing those blogs. I think it was really important and I think overall it was positive in terms of it got us to talk about things that we don't usually talk about and it really was helping moms to connect to other people. So after the bloggers, we start to see these like really polished, almost like magazine type pictures being posted of people with their family. So it's almost always women. They're almost always cis, white, very thin, multiple children who are adorable and in these like perfect homes, and we had that for a long time.
Speaker 2:And Cora. I just have to jump in for one, one quick second because, as you're telling the story, the first thing that pops into my mind is Laura Lauren Bobert with her you know like her kids and the shotguns and like the pictures oh, yeah, yeah I know she's, I know she's not a mom fluencer, but yeah but it's that same type of kind of ridiculousness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So around that time, we, like people, started using Instagram a lot more and it was just this like, focus on like we have this happy family, why don't you? And this is what you should be striving for. So then that was in about 2015 ish people really started asking for money for the content they were creating. I'd argue, maybe a little bit before that time. It was like celebrities families. It became it kind of like morphs into from the celebrity and their family to like like wives of famous TV people or personalities, and so we start getting much more money and product promotion, and I love this line. Advertisers love the mom market, because moms buy everything couches to diapers, makeup, parenting books anything is possible and we know that like-.
Speaker 2:Where was that from?
Speaker 1:I kind of pulled that together from a bunch of different. Oh, you did, Okay yeah yeah, so because overall, moms make the most purchasing decisions for the household, for marketers to really see us as like the people who buy things. I never looked at it. I never thought about it that way. Honestly, it totally makes sense, but I never thought about it that way. Honestly, it totally makes sense, but I never thought about it that way. When I started thinking about it that way, it made me feel really vulnerable actually.
Speaker 2:On the flip side of that, though, wouldn't that also give moms a lot of power to make change?
Speaker 1:Yes, I do think that's possible. Maybe that's where more I don't know like ecological climate, people who are more concerned with that kind of stuff could target moms, and it would be really great. You know, yeah, but that's. I guess that's not what we were really looking at when we looked at the momfluencers.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say with the other aspect of that, which I would love to talk a little bit later in the episode, is that the individuals who are the mom and momfluencers and that are promoting this product.
Speaker 3:The majority of them are within the coin term trad, trad wife or trad mom. They follow very traditional family quote unquote traditional family values of the mother is the homemaker, the mother is domestic partner in this relationship and the husband is the one that goes out and makes the money and stuff like that. So if you have individuals that are promoting this, they're not going to be promoting it in an empowering way. They're just promoting oh, you can buy this Swiffer, it's going to clean your ground, like your floor, and everything like that. For lack of a better example mom empowerment, it's more just done in a way of like, hey, you need to buy something to clean your ground because you are the homemaker, you are the domestic partner. This is what you should buy to clean your floors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think Sarah Peterson again makes a really good point about the trad mom. She called it an escapist fantasy for moms who are working really hard and holding it together. So you know, I think there's so much anxiety as a mom about like time and effort and where you're, how you're spending those two things, and it makes sense that you would, you know, turn on your TikTok and look at pictures of families that are actually like holding it together. Quote, unquote.
Speaker 3:know the perception that they're holding it together anyway right yeah, to kind of dive out, delve into the trad wife or the trad family slightly, a little bit more. Sarah peterson also discusses that, these viewerships and like they became more popular around the time of covet 19, like around like around 2020, 2021 and stuff like that. It was actually. She was interviewed in a podcast that I listened to.
Speaker 3:The cult of mom influencers, which I had met, go is going to attach to the resources and everything, but she really discusses the fact of like we were struggling as a country, as a society, a lot of moms who were stuck home with their children and were having to do school at home.
Speaker 3:We're needing that escapism. We're needing that picture perfect. If you can watch someone make everything from scratch and their house is pristinely clean and they have such a calming voice and all their kids look perfect. There's really this sense of escapism, of like why I really want this to be my life, like how do I make this picture perfect brand? Because it's a brand, it's not reality. This picture perfect brand, how do I make this brand into my life? And I think that the specific issue that changes from a regular influencer to a mom fluencer which and why mom fluencers? I wanted to focus specifically on mom fluencers is that quote-unquote brand is their kids. It's not themselves, it's their children, who are underage and might not, probably aren't consenting to their entire personality brand like themselves being a brand and making money off of their underage child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that, like some of these pictures need to come with a little footnote that says you know, like this mom had four assistants, two makeup artists and a photographer.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3:I agree with you on that, but I think it's. I can't imagine the difficulty of that, of being a new mom and feeling isolated and feeling just discouraged. And because new motherhood isn't motherhood in general, parenting in general is not easy. So feeling that isolation and being able to view someone else who is really doing that, perfect, like it's understandable that they are such a vulnerable population and we've figured out a way how to target them Right.
Speaker 2:When you're. When you're talking about that, julia, two things came to my mind. One was the whole reward yourself for being a mom by having a glass of wine. But the other thing that also comes to mind is things like oh, your kids are your kids are really too hyperactive. Take mama's little help. Or Ritalin or Adderall Right. So there's all these different ways that moms, particularly, are being marketed.
Speaker 2:Different substances, whether it's like by prescription, whether it's over the counter, whether it's drugs, whether it's whatever it is, to one increase profits, because I do think that's what it's about to be addicting. So you're now creating lifetime consumers, or likely to create lifetime consumer consumers of a product while marketing that it's going to make their lives better. When I mean, come on, at the end of the day, we know alcohol is a poison, period, I don't care how you spin it, it's a poison. So it would be just as great as saying like hey, let me go drink a little bit of drano because it's going to make me feel so much better today. No, right, because we know it's poison and it's going to kill you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's dangerous to be inebriated around children, you know.
Speaker 2:Especially if there's an emergency like if, like you know, you're at home, you have like one or two glasses of wine because you don't plan on going anywhere, and then all of a sudden there's like some sort of medical emergency and you have to throw your child in the car and drive to the emergency room. I mean, imagine how dangerous that is if you don't get pulled over for DUI. But if you're frantic, to begin with you're under the influence of something, you have a sick child in the car. That's just a disaster waiting to happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was talking earlier about children being branded and the brand of the momfluencer. I just wanted to point out, just so everyone is aware, just the dangerous something like that. So there's no and TV, there's this new, the Coogan law, which was just like established like a few years ago or pretty recently.
Speaker 2:What is that? I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3:The Coogan law determines like so if a child star, the child TV star, child movie star, the parents have to put up put a percentage of their earnings into an account that is under the child's name. So it prevents the parents have to put up put a percentage of their earnings into an account that is under the child's name. So it prevents the parents from taking all the money and like profiting or pretty much having the child be the main employee of the family and taking care of the rest of the family, because that's just totally unfair. Common cases of this um, pretty recently, jeanette McCurdy, who was in I iCarly she plays Sam in iCarly and I'm only noting this because I grew up watching iCarly and everything, so it's definitely my generation um, her mom like took all of her earnings and she was the primary like caretaker of the family and didn't even know because she wasn't allowed like any look into finances.
Speaker 3:So the Coogan law now prevents that. So the parents have to I don't remember the exact percentages, I want to say it's like 70 or something like that they have to put a percentage of their earnings into an account under the child's name. The law hasn't caught up to social media on that end. There's no laws relating to kids who are the face of a brand or the face of a social media account kids who are the face of a brand or the face of a social media account. There's no laws pertaining to the parents putting a percentage of that into a savings for the child. The parents can do whatever they want with that money.
Speaker 2:So it really turns into this concern of is the child the primary breadwinner of this household and they're not even aware, they're not consenting to this and they're going to be left with no money when they turn 18 I'm curious you may or may not, because I obviously I didn't even know about that until I asked you about that, so you may or may not know the answer to this but how is that different from parents who use their kids in like beauty pageants and other ways to make money, in that, in that regard, does the law protect those kids as well?
Speaker 3:I don't know. And now that you ask that I'm like automatically thinking of like toddlers and tiaras, I I don't know. That's a good question. I honestly, like I had mentioned earlier, the only reason I really knew about the googolaw was because of jeanette mccurdy and she had come out with um, like a biography, like an autobiography about like her experience and everything, but that was really the first time I had heard of it. So I don't know if it's expanded to like beauty pageants or like talent shows or stuff like that, or if it's just solely in like tv and entertainment. It.
Speaker 2:It's, it's, it's just fascinating. That's another way to skirt around the law. So we have child labor laws. You can't have a child working at I don't know McDonald's or like anything like that, because it violates child labor laws, but then you can have them working in beauty pageants and as as models and as actors and all this other stuff. And I think of that, corey, maybe you remember. This is this and I'm probably gonna screw the details up on this because it was so long ago, but there was that movie, the Twilight Zone, the movie, do you remember that, with the kids? I think there were two kids that were working on set and they were violating all sorts of labor laws and there was an explosion on set with the helicopter and like both the kids were killed and like the actor was killed and and I think that did make some changes, if I remember correctly, to the to the labor laws within, like Hollywood. But still, it's just, I don't know, it's just, it feels yucky.
Speaker 1:It does feel yucky, and I think the word that Julia said that I really want to grab onto is consent. You know kids can't give consent, even if they agree to be in a movie. Or you know it's OK to take my picture, mommy. That's totally different than selling that or marketing it. So that's something I really struggle with and I have a problem with.
Speaker 2:Although I just want to throw this in there because I think this is kind of a big deal and we certainly don't have to talk about it now but the term consent with kids seems to change depending on what topic we're talking about which. I think is incredibly concerning If you're saying kids can't consent to certain things, but then they consent to other things.
Speaker 1:it creates a very confusing set of standards for what kids are capable of doing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I guess I'm wondering from your perspective, do you believe kids can consent? I don't know. I mean, I think back to. I think we can all think back to childhood, right, and regardless of how old anybody is listening to this right now, at some point we were all children. If you were to ask me if I could consent to any of the things that we're talking about, or any of the topics that come up, when I was like five, six, seven years old, I think the answer would be no.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I certainly. I think. I mean we know the brain doesn't even truly stop developing until you're in your early twenties. We know that developmentally there's all these different things that change based on whether or not you've been exposed to trauma or you know how you, how you've grown up, and we don't think through consequences long-term as a child. Developmentally you just don't do it. So I mean, when I was five or six years old, there were certainly things that I may have wanted to have done, with zero regard or understanding for what that would have meant long-term in terms of consequences.
Speaker 2:You know, you think about these child actors who you know they may be thinking, oh it's going to be great to be in the movies, but we know from history that child actors have a huge likelihood of abusing drugs and alcohol on top of other things. We know that. I mean it's been well documented. There's countless celebrities it's happened to. But those kids who are becoming child celebrities, they don't get that. They can't possibly understand the gravity of that right now, yeah, I agree with that totally I agree with sorry, cora, I was gonna say I agree with that as well.
Speaker 3:I think that also would be thought of, like taking out the entertainment, the tv, the movie thing, of thinking of social media and not understanding the gravity of it. No child is going to understand the digital footprint that comes with getting everything posted, your entire life posted on social media. Even if those videos are deleted, they are still active and still being able to be accessible somewhere most adults don't even understand I was, was going to say I mean, it's true, they don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how do you expect a five, six-year-old, never mind like a two-year-old, newborn, whatever to understand the gravity? Like they can't?
Speaker 1:Right, although I do want to encourage at this as like a learning point, right, that parents have these conversations with their kids. If you are going to post pictures of your children online, you know, like the first day of school, all my friends are posting these adorable pictures and I'm just loving it because it's like kids I haven't seen in a long time and I was going to like post my family's and I asked my daughters and they were like no, and I said okay, like if you guys don't want that, that's okay with me, like it's not for my. You know, it's as a mom, I feel proud and excited to share a picture of them, but maybe I do it privately, to only a couple of people that they do care about, you know, maybe it's just their grandparents and that's okay, like I'm following their lead. So I think there's an opportunity here for parents.
Speaker 1:Maybe kids who are younger than, say, 10 can't make those decisions. Maybe, as a parent, you have to make those decisions, whether or not you're posting content online. Um, not, you're posting content online and hopefully you're doing your best to make it okay content, you know. But I think it's. It is a good opportunity to start having that conversation with your kids. And that leads to the next conversation, which is what are you posting on your account when you make one, when you're 15 or 16 or 17 or whenever that comes, you know?
Speaker 3:But, cora, I think that you do something amazing when you ask your kids for permission before posting, that You're treating them like an individual. You're treating them like a human being and showing that their opinion matters, but also showing safe internet behavior, being like, hey, you don't want that posted, okay, your boundary is respected and I won't post it, and that's really amazing and such a healthy relationship to have with your kids where I don't. I don't know how popular that route would be if parents would think to ask their kids before posting or being like, oh well, all my friends are posting, so I'm going to post as well.
Speaker 2:So I can think of two things off the top of my head and I know we're a little bit deviating from the topic, although it although it is related because mom influencers, or any influencers, are certainly pushing the narrative of putting more stuff on social media than they probably have to. But I can think of a time when my niece who got into a lot of trouble online I might add all sorts of trouble when she was younger took a picture and posted it on Tik TOK in front of the house, in front of the house's address. So you know, these are things that kids don't certainly think about. And, cora, you had brought up the consent, which I think is a great idea as to whether or not you know kids are consenting to having their pictures online. Again, though, I think it brings up a bigger issue.
Speaker 2:There are studies out there and I was actually trying to find one really quickly about predators and how many pictures they need to find of kids online to locate the actual child. I don't think it's that many. I was trying to find it. I can't find it, but off the top of my head I remember it being something like three or four. All they needed was like three or four pictures to locate, with all the other information that was on a profile, where those children are located. So is it safe to be posting pictures of kids online anyway in general, with or without consent.
Speaker 1:Right, no, that's a really good point, matt. Yeah, I don't know. You know, the other thing that came up when I was researching was about fake images and how, like a lot of different countries, like people in other countries, are stealing images and then making it look a certain way, which is certainly not something kids think about at all, and I don't think many parents think about that either. But certainly we have to think about safety and again, like, what are the ways we keep our kids safe? Maybe we keep our profile on private, maybe we don't share information, like. I'm just trying to think of like little tiny things that we can be doing if you are going to post, but you're totally right, I don't. I don't know that it is safe to do that anymore.
Speaker 3:When I think of like safe. Sorry, matt.
Speaker 2:So I just looked up. I was able to find something. It's not exactly what I was looking for, but it's from the Bo Biden Foundation for the Protection of Children and it says that 46% of children give away information about themselves online for perfect tools for predators to use to identify victims, build trust, establish relationships around shared interests. So I mean that's practically 50%, wow, which is why I would argue that I don't know if it's a good idea for anybody to be posting pictures of their kids online, and it does look like the most common kids that are victimized are more like the preteen to like midteen age range, but still like it's not. I don't know. I have a lot of mixed feelings about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when Cora was explaining, like talking, asking if they're in, matt, you're asking like is there a safe way to post kids? The first thing I'm thinking of is that six months to a year ago, where everyone was like, hey, these pictures can actually go to not safe or not legal places and these images of these kids can get altered and are used in predatory ways, there was really this big push of some influencers taking down the videos of their kids or had started covering the faces of their children or stuff like that. I think of that. I think of other, which I don't know if it's necessarily better or not, but I'm just thinking of ways that people are trying to combat but still have their children somewhat present on their online, which I don't know if that's the right answer.
Speaker 3:I think of other. There's some other individuals and I can't think of any names right now, of course, but there's like YouTube videos where the parent, specifically the mom or the dad, is posting a video and if their kids come into video, the kids, like you see their feet or like you see you don't see any identifying factors, but you see their arm, their hand or something like that. You don't really see their face, their whole body. Another thing I wanted to bring up, which is a little it goes back to the mom mom influencers, is that a lot of the moms that are popular specifically on tiktok instagram, things like that are mormon and really it's not really.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think of two off the top of my head.
Speaker 2:Wait okay hold on, I'm like baffled by this. Oh wait, okay, wait okay, no, never mind. I was thinking of um the amish. Okay, because I was like, what are they doing on social media? Okay, never mind no, the mormons.
Speaker 3:The mormons really infiltrate every, every avenue they can, because mormons are also really popular within, like mlm movements and stuff like that as well, which I don't't realize.
Speaker 2:But the two months, that I. But we don't, to be fair, we don't want to generalize an entire population of people, not generalizing an entire population.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I have to take that back. I'm not stereotyping.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's a disproportionate amount of people who are. Mormon that engage in that type of behavior.
Speaker 3:Thank you for the question.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I get really worked up about the mormon stuff. I don't trust me, I get it.
Speaker 3:I get worked up about all religion, but I know I get it. The two momfluencers that stick out to me that are mormon and have been have confirmed that they are mormon is a woman. Her profile is called ballerina farm. Uh, she is a mormon mom who has I believe she has eight children and she posts like videos that she's making everything from scratch. They live on a farm. Her husband is the heir to jet blue, but that is not discussed at all in the profile, but there's a lot of posts.
Speaker 3:She's making everything from scratch. All her kids are around her 24 7, everything is clean, everything is perfect, and she is this blonde, skinny, white woman that one. The other one I think of is ruby frank, which I know, cora, you did a little research on in this kind of like worst case scenario of what can be true with some of these momfluencers. She had a YouTube page called A Passengers and she's also has been confirmed as Mormon. Cora, do you want to talk a little bit about? I can do it. Okay, perfect, ruby Frank.
Speaker 3:Now this is according to ABC News 2020, ruby Frankie, from mom influencer to felon. Again, these are kind of worst case scenarios. We're not saying that all mom influencers are like this or this is kind of the general. This is the general. This is just kind of worst case scenario of what can be happening behind closed doors that you, as consuming the content, aren't even realizing. So I'm just going to read the excerpt that's on here and then kind of see if I need to add anything else. But Ruby's Frankie's YouTube channel Eight Passengers was a portrait of social media success. For years, the wife and mother of six amassed nearly nine and a half million sorry, two and a half million followers documenting the daily life of her children. However, the images of the perfect family began to crack when her controversial videos displayed her strict parenting. In August of 2023, one of Ruby's children, malnourished and duct tape, with duct tape and wounds on his wrists and ankles, escaped the home of Frankie's friend and business partner, jody Hildebrandt, and asked a neighbor for help.
Speaker 3:I remember this now that you're talking about this, a new 2020, with recording from Nightline co-anchor Juju Chang unravels the unimaginable abuse at the hands of Ruby and Jodi through never-before-seen body camera video, recorded calls and Ruby's own journal detailing their horrific abuse. So she was a momfluencer on YouTube and had two and a half million subscribers watching her videos. She had caught controversy in years prior prior to 2023, when her six-year-old daughter forgot her lunch at school and she had actually recorded herself getting a call from the teacher saying that her daughter had forgotten her lunch and asked her to bring it in. She had then refused to bring her daughter lunch because her six-year-old should learn that she shouldn't have forgotten her lunch, so refused to bring it in. She had gotten a little controversy for that, but a lot of people continued following her, her and her business partner, jody hildebrandt, who, jody, was a therapist. I don't know what her licensor was, but she was a licensed therapist.
Speaker 3:Um, they created kind of this. They had started to sell like parenting books and parenting classes and like how to properly parent your children, while they're engaging in this really horrific abuse to Ruby's own children. So, again, little dark, depressing, again worst case scenario. Not all mom influencers are going to that extent and I don't want that to be the message, but really showing you like what you see on social media, what you are consuming, really reminding yourself that's a brand, that is a curated. They have curated what you are watching. They have picked and chosen what you see versus what you don't see. So, taking the videos with a grain of salt if you do consume them, grain of salt if you do consume them.
Speaker 2:I almost wonder you know, as you're talking about this, and this is not the first influencer we have heard doing terrible things, whether it's a mom influencer or any influencer the expression I forgot, who said it absolute power corrupts absolutely, and I just I can't help but wonder if that's part of what happens. Maybe not in this particular case, because I think somebody who does stuff like that obviously has other issues going on that are more severe. But money power status is so addicting that I do think when people get to a certain point, they start sacrificing their moral compass, they start sacrificing things around them because it becomes this high of like how much do I make, how much more do I make? And I I don't think we are. As long as that continues to trend and I see it trending for a while, I think things might get worse. Yeah, for for our society in general, core is something I would be interested in asking you before we run out of time is on that again. What was the name of that podcast, Julie? I forgot already.
Speaker 3:Sounds Like a Cult.
Speaker 2:Sounds Like a Cult. One of the things that the host was talking about was when moms drinking or like wine moms, that when attention is brought to that, the response is don't shame me, and that there's a little bit of a cult mentality behind behind the whole, like don't shame me. And we see, we see that in all sorts of different communities and groups where you you bring up some really poor behavior that I think most people would classify as poor, and then it turns into this like don't shame me. So what are your thoughts on that as a as a mom?
Speaker 1:um, I think it. It's hard because, um, I think parenting is one of those things that until you're in it, you don't realize necessarily like what, what it truly feels like. I certainly feel like I had my kids and was like totally thrown into it. It wasn't anything like what I thought it was going to be like and I'm not sure if that's because of the culture we live in, the society we live in. Like I'm not sure where I got those ideas from, but I think it's inherent, right, it's just out there in the air. A lot of people make it look like parenting is easy, but it's not. So, yeah, I'm not sure. Like, I think you don't. I don't want to, I would never want to shame anybody. Number one and number two like I do think sometimes parents need a break, but not about, like these bigger issues.
Speaker 2:You know what I was more getting to is how, when we hear because I mean, there's certainly times when you truly are shaming somebody, that's, I think, one thing, but there's another it's almost becoming a buzzword to shoot things down when somebody may not actually be attempting to shame anybody, it's just pointing out a natural consequence. So, for example, if somebody has 10 beers and they get into a car accident, they get a DUI and you say, well, you know, you probably shouldn't have been drinking and driving. And the response is don't shame me. That is not shaming somebody, it's pointing out cause and effect.
Speaker 1:But I worry what we're doing with pretty much every topic that we talk about as a society is defaulting to you're shaming me, stop talking about it or you're shaming me or it's part of cancel culture, right, like people are so afraid of being told like they did something wrong and and now like they're done. I think that level of like black and white is really difficult and I think it's harmful to people and it's just causing even more diversiveness in our country, in our country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with you. I think there are times when there are times when canceling something is really appropriate and then there are times when there's not, and I would argue there's actually more times that there's not than there is, because it takes away from the validity of things that are truly bad. It's like when anything gets thrown around, right. So certainly I can attest to homophobia being gay and there are certainly times when I've heard people throw the term homophobia around, when I'm like, yeah, it's really not homophobia, you're just kind of throwing that around to to get a reaction. And the problem is, is that then that minimizes all the times that it's truly a problem? And the term shame is becoming one of those things where it's almost like a protective shield the minute somebody says it, you can no longer talk about anything that they're talking about. I don't know, but I'm not a mom, so I'm just. I'm asking you, like what you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that's true and I think that that gets you to the second level right, where, as a culture, we're not talking about things like when you put that like shield up, then we stopped and it's just like one more way that we just shut down the conversation. But really it's important to have these conversations. You know, like I didn't know moms were out there doing this stuff. Like I think it's really kind of gross, you know, I would like to end on a positive note.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, of course, we're all about that this is a little bit from research and also just my own life. I do want to say that, moms, if you're out there, if you're listening and you want to stay connected or just find some new friends, these are some things that I think are a little bit better than turning on TikTok and listening to momfluencers. One idea is, if you're going to go online, to be specific with your searches and to look for people who don't advertise. Try to find a local person or an online group. Breastfeeding and postpartum groups are awesome. They're so great, great. I cannot say enough about um in-person groups.
Speaker 2:Just love them I can a hundred percent support that because, as I've said before, I ran a postpartum mom support group for a very long time. Most of the moms in the group their kids were like six or seven but they were not postpartum anymore. But they continue to stay and even during COVID they we continue to meet outside because it was so important for them to have that physical connection to other people to normalize things. And you know there are not a lot of them. I think at the time that I was running the group there was only one other group in all of Rhode Island that was doing postpartum support group In Philadelphia.
Speaker 1:That was such a big thing. So when I was living in the city, like every hospital had at least one or two that were running all the time and I will say, like if you're a mom looking for that, like check out your local hospital, check out your pediatrician, and even like the local library is such a good place for moms to meet other people or to see things posted, you got to get out there, you got to put yourself out there a little bit, but I think that's a really nice way to stay connected with people this is equally important is when you're putting yourself out there.
Speaker 2:It's really make sure you set boundaries too. So, like, if you meet people, whether it's at the library, whether it's at a support group, and they're doing behavior that is in the realm of the stuff that we're talking about, you don't have to join in. You can just keep looking until you find other people that fit what you want right right so, wow, we went from kidnapping to like it's a mom fluencers to alcohol we certainly did.
Speaker 2:We certainly did. So we're going to be, uh, the next thing that we're going to be talking about. So, um, I don't know, should I say, should I leave it as a surprise, or should I tell people what the next one's about? What do you think?
Speaker 3:I think that's up to you, Matt.
Speaker 2:Let's do it as a surprise. Let's just say we'll be interviewing somebody very interesting that I've known for a little while. We'll be talking about the criminal justice system, recidivism rates and you know what that looks like, especially for people who have drug-related crimes.
Speaker 3:So that'll be the next episode coming out soon Super exciting. I think this was super informative.
Speaker 2:But biasly. I feel like it was a very informative episode.
Speaker 1:Well, that naturally.
Speaker 2:Hey Cora, thank you again.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry, Matt.
Speaker 2:I know I was just saying Cora. Thank you again. We're going to. I think I mentioned on the last episode about. I talked about your placement, so you're going to be on quite a quite a few more episodes over the next year or so.
Speaker 3:Thank you for all the research that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Of course, thank you Of course. All right, everybody, until next week.
Speaker 3:All right, bye.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy.
Speaker 3:Thank, you again.
