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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S2 E 24 Veterinary Medicine and Mental Health Challenges
Join us for a profound conversation with our special guest, Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel, who enlightens us about the intricate intersections between veterinary medicine, mental health, and advocacy for marginalized communities. Discover their heartfelt dedication to inclusivity within veterinary clinics, as they shed light on the challenges LGBTQIA and racially diverse professionals face in a predominantly white industry. We journey through Dr. Hendel's impactful work with organizations such as Pride VMC and the Multicultural Veterinary Medical Association, as well as the somber realities of suicide and pet loss, with initiatives like the VIN Foundation standing at the forefront of mental health support for vets.
The episode further unveils the pressing issue of mental health struggles in the veterinary profession, spotlighted by the efforts of Not One More Vet. This nonprofit, born from tragedy, is reshaping mental health resources for veterinarians through education and support initiatives. We explore how the solitary nature of veterinary work, especially in rural areas, contributes to mental health risks and the critical importance of community support. Matt also shares his personal endeavors to facilitate mental health services for first responders and veterinarians, while delving into potential collaborations with the International Association of Veterinary Social Workers to tailor resources for this unique field.
Finally, we address the emotional complexities faced by veterinarians, from the challenges of cyber harassment to the ethics of euthanasia. Discover strategies for managing online negativity and the profound human-animal connections that make end-of-life decisions so poignant. Through personal insights and professional stories, we highlight the necessity of compassionate communication and the emerging role of veterinary social work. This episode is a heartfelt call to foster change and bolster support within the veterinary community.
CattleDog Publishing
Vets4Vets - VIN Foundation
About The International Association of Veterinary Social Work - International Association of Veterinary Social Work
Home | Not One More Vet
Work-related stressors and suicidal ideation: The mediating role of burnout: Journal of Workplace Behavioral Health: Vol 36, No 2
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody. This is Matt, and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I have both Julia and Cora with me today and a very special guest, Erica, and I will let Erica introduce themselves in a minute. We do want to give a little bit of a trigger warning ahead of time, and actually first I want to apologize for my voice. I just came back from Italy and I'm sick, so you're going to have to bear with the terrible voice today. But we do want to do a little bit of a trigger warning because we are going to be talking about a couple of things, including suicide and pet deaths, and those can be really tough topics for a lot of people. Those of you that have listened know that Julie and I have recently had pet deaths of our own in our lives and how tough that is, and suicide is certainly a really tough topic for a lot of people. So, Erica, I'm going to let you introduce yourself now if you would like.
Speaker 3:Hi, my name is Erica Lynn Hendel. I'm a veterinarian, so Dr Erica Lynn Hendel my pronouns are they, them, theirs. I do relief work, so that basically means that I help doctors get a break, and I work in Arizona and I do companion animal medicine. I've been in other areas of veterinary medicine too. I've done some work in SWI. I worked with pigs for four and a half years in the Midwest and then I shifted back to companion animal medicine and my heart is with access to care, sheltering, humanitarian response and also transmitting clinic culture and solutions across clinics. I have a group that I work with, western Veterinary Partners that allows me to play around with that. And then I do a lot of work in the industry with affinity organizations. I've helped out with some things with Pride VMC, who has been around for 30 years supporting LGBTQIA veterinary professionals. We have the Gender Identity Bill of Rights. That is a really important piece of work. They are currently working on things with what's going on with the upcoming election and concerns about our community there.
Speaker 3:I used to be a board member at the Multicultural Veterinary Medical Association. It's an organization that really strives to end the impact of racial and ethnic discrimination in our field, because veterinary medicine is one of the whitest professions around care, care industry and let's see, and also not one more vet. I'm an active board member where I also do work for students. I really care about neurodiversity, so I basically like I've got a lot of marginalized identities that kind of combine with what I'm doing in veterinary medicine, which is like very meaningful work. But it's definitely you know, if you, if you have a veterinarian, know that the veterinary team, the whole veterinary team in that hospital, works really hard to do the best they can to keep you and your pets healthy and happy with that human animal bond. So I'm really glad to be having this conversation here and hopefully bring some veterinary professionals to listen to your podcast. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be listening from start to finish from the topics that I saw and it just is really meaningful.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate that and, my God, erica, you do a lot listening to all the stuff that you do. So, first of all, thank you for everything that you do, because, I mean, you're obviously bringing a lot of awareness to many, many different topics that need to be talked about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really appreciate it. I, when I was a student, you know, veterinary medicine is like kind of a bit of like what made me like existing possible right, like being able to tend to like existing possible right, like being able to tend to the well-being of living things, right. It's just like very much important as part of like my cultural heritage and it was like in some ways, a gift, right. This has been a very big gift for me, for me, and I want I want the parts that made me question that, which are unnecessary, to not be part of what the younger generation questions. So I'm like we're still. We're still in that cycle, right, healthcare education has cycles that are around hierarchical toxicity and our students are impacted by that. So I think that there's change right.
Speaker 3:I believe that veterinary medicine that has changed so much like from establishment of cooperative care, dr Sophia Yin, who really spearheaded that, who hurt her suicide in 2014.
Speaker 3:And that tragic loss was what resulted in us having a serious conversation about suicide and veterinary medicine. So the VIN Foundation, some of her legacy. They have a program that's for vets as a support program. So we have a lot of organizations working on this to kind of change that nature at pretty much every veterinary professional has lost someone or know someone. So it's something that we're trying to make a move on and you know, I'm really proud to see how this area of activism in the field continues to grow. You know, not One More Vet and Vet for Vet and all of these other programs, all of the you know organizations that are taking things seriously. We have increases in employee EAP programs to increase access. We're decreasing stigma. We're working with so now there's a specialty social workers, for veterinary social workers. It's so tremendous to see those changes and how so many individuals are involved, or like little little pebbles that ripple outwards and I agree.
Speaker 2:You said a lot that I want to comment on, so of course I want to throw out a positive story. So I just recently came back, as you heard, from italy and italy. They have feral cat colonies everywhere, right, so like, and they very much value. Cats like you're not allowed to like, you have to feed them. You obviously can't hurt them. If you do, you get fined. And I mean when I tell you there was cats at every museum, like um place we went, like there were cats at the parthenon, there were cats in greece, there were cats at um the coliseum. There are cats like literally everywhere. And of course I have to pet every cat I see.
Speaker 2:So naturally but they also had dogs and like they just you know they all seem like so happy, so that that's an excellent positive spin.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you had brought up EAP benefits, which I think is great. My experience with EAP benefits and I don't know, cora or Julia, if you've had this experience is companies will often pay for EAP, which is employee assistance programs for those people who don't know that and for them to, for the employees to go into counseling, but they pay for like four visits or five visits right and they expect everything to be kind of wrapped up in a neat little package and then, what ends up happening is, then usually it's not covered.
Speaker 2:So then if they want to continue with counseling, it's like a ridiculously high copay or like they have a large deductible. So it's almost like getting somebody started and then kicking them out the door, which I almost think is more detrimental.
Speaker 3:Oh, you know what. I'm so excited that this was your response to that, because I would say that that's exactly the critique that I have had about these. So what we are working on also. For example, namv has a program called Clear Blueprint right, and that is a program that helps us work with a clinic for creating tools on training people around mentally healthy practices. So, like I think access to mental health care is really important. It has taken me a really long time to finally find the type of therapy that I need for therapy to be a fully safe place. So I finally have. My therapist is a Black woman who has worked with autistic and neurodiverse people for like maybe 20 years and who also is like a disruptor or changer in her fields as well. So, like now, when I'm talking about trying to make change or try and push back, to be like, yes, eap, great, four sessions isn't going to do it.
Speaker 2:It's equivalent to you know, when we talk about grief, when you have a family member or a pet or somebody that's important that passes away and your job gives you three to four days of bereavement, like max, because again you're supposed to be like over it. Yes, right, so it's all like the same, the same thing, and there's a there's a big push to not take insurance too right because of like how many. I just had a situation happen I was telling Cora and Julie about, before we started, where I had a client who had a her. The insurance that she had was actually her secondary insurance, but I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:She didn't tell me it didn't show up so now here it is October, and the insurance I had been billing had said oops, she had a different insurance. So now they're recouping all of the money for the whole year that I saw her and there's nothing I can do about it because of course it took them that long to figure it out right. So like it's circumstances like that that make us not want to take insurance because it's just a it's.
Speaker 3:It's such a scam so, uh, you, you are in a position. So we're all impacted by these things like access to care right and what is covered, what is not, how much we can get people to undergo a therapeutic treatment, that is the ascribed time that it needs to be right, I have. We call this moral injury right. We call this moral injury right and it's actually one of the core component of veterinary professional distress is that when we cannot do the things that we need to do, when we cannot intervene due to lack of resources, yeah, especially for pets too, because the pets are it's expensive.
Speaker 3:It's I mean, pet care is incredibly expensive, and well, yeah, all of the costs of when we also when we don't have it. So this is for insurance currently for pet owners doesn't work the same way that insurance works in human medicine. It's hopefully we will able to keep it from going that way, but I have a quick story about that.
Speaker 2:So I have true pionion. My vet highly recommended true pionion.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 2:I, I, so I've had it on the two newest cats that I won't, that I have cause. I've had them since they were kittens and one of them needed dental. At two years old she needed to have some teeth extracted. And when I tell you, it was just as bad dealing with true panion as it was dealing with insurance companies for mental health, I could not believe it. They kept asking for things that they wanted her like original records, and I said she's a stray. The only records I have is the records from the adoption agency that I adopted her from and they're like well, we need the records before that. And I was like there are no records before that and it just it kept going back and forth. It took me like seven months to get paid.
Speaker 3:I'm so sorry. So it's kind of the same thing, right, right, yeah, and like the thing. So the face that I'm making, which your audience cannot see right now. My eyes are narrowed, I am like cuddling my coffee cup. I love the visual. Yeah, like it's one of the and like kind of squinting. Right, there are people with I'm. I like paperwork is like.
Speaker 3:I have been like building up the emotional gumption to go through every single pet insurance policy. There are people in my industry who have done that. Sometimes they talk about like so I'm I, you know, like we need to have some more collaborative discussions. Like access to care is a big problem, right, we also have to be able to have all of our veterinary team have a livable wage. Have all of our veterinary team have a livable wage with good benefits, right, so we're all trying to do that when, with the way things like our, our health care that we provide to pets is still incredibly affordable in comparison to what the actual medical bill that people receive. You know, and the care that we provide sometimes we say is arguably, depending on the situation, a little bit more timely or something, right, like I get my clients get very upset with me if I am running more than like 25 minutes behind, right. So, um, I, you know, I I think that we have things like prop 129 in Colorado that, like veterinary professionals are terrified about. That creates a mid-level practitioner that potentially undermines our credentialed veterinary technicians Also our veterinary I I am probably one of the more radical people in my field where I'm like this is end stage capitalism and then we have other you know I have other friends that are working on unionizing but like all we can do is kind of work together for the best that we can, right.
Speaker 3:So I think that you know, know that the veterinary professional teams are advocating everywhere that we can, when we have power, to try and keep things affordable, while also, you know transport costs, like everything is increasing in price prices and drugs barriers. You know the economics of it are incredibly complex and you know we just have to continue to have those conversations, right. I regularly have to have conversations about what is realistic and having those conversations where you know a pet parent is coming in, being like oh, I just want to do like a regular checkup or seemed a little bit off the last, like day or two, and I'm like your dog has a giant, like your dog, has a giant mass in its abdomen. That is a ticking time bomb and I know that, like you, weren't expecting to hear this today, but you basically have to make the decision of surgery, which is unlikely to do anything, and letting go now, today, because I don't know what's going to happen if you, or how long we're going to be okay Once you leave the building. Right, that?
Speaker 2:sucks it does, suck it's. It sounds like it's one more system that's designed to fail, like every other system we have Cora.
Speaker 1:I think you had a question you wanted to ask have Cora, I think you had a question you wanted to ask. I just wanted to kind of go back to what you're saying and for our listeners you know that's our people and as I was looking at Not One More Vet website you guys do a really good job of outlining a lot of the different hardships that veterinarians and veterinarian professionals experience. Answered one of my questions, but I mean, could you paint that picture a little bit for us, like some of those things that people are dealing with that make I wonder, though, before we get to that, if we can just talk about what one, not one more vet is right.
Speaker 2:So those people. I became aware of it because I work with somebody who's a vet, and that's how I found out that suicide rates among vets were like really high, and I was shocked by it, because it's not something that's public knowledge. So can you talk a little bit about what that website is?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Not One More Vet is a nonprofit organization, 501c3, um was founded in 2014 after dr sophia yin's um death to suicide, which, like, completely rocked the industry. Right, she was um instrumental. So now we have like fear free, right? I don't know if you've heard fear free certification or anything like. So fear free, it's like low stress handling in veterinary medicine to kind of um make and things like cooperative care also exist in like zoos and stuff where they train the animals to like hold out their paw and get yummies while they get their blood pulled right. It just makes it so we can work together rather than any sort of like combative restraint right To the best of our ability. So that was like she spearheaded that. So she was Asian American as well. So, like, for me as an Asian American veterinarian, it was also like a big deal. There was another veterinarian of color that had died by suicide only a couple months ahead of time. That was priming, kind of priming the situation. So then we we started talking about it.
Speaker 3:Right, a group of veterinarians put together a Facebook group for veterinarians to like talk about problems that they were going through, because sometimes, you know, in rural settings, the veterinarian might be the only veterinarian in the area area, right, we might have like one veterinary team in a larger area. So sometimes it can be a little bit of a solitary like existence. So that's why social media was a really great place and then it grew from there. So its mission is to oh gosh, I'm not going to get read it off right but, like it's, to transform the mental health status of the industry through education, resources and support, right? So we have a bunch of different programs and, in addition to that, like there are lots of you know, like I said, vets for Vets, veterinary mental health services that recently joined NAMVI, that runs support groups, and you know there are lots of there are social workers and mental health professionals that have decided to specifically serve veterinary professionals.
Speaker 2:You know I want to add to that too. I have also tried to. I did that with first responders as well, because first responders have, like, really high rates of suicide. And we have made multiple attempts to reach out to first responders and offer them free counseling services through the use of student interns, because right now CORE is an intern of mine and I have another fantastic intern Julia used to be an intern of mine, now she works for me. So the benefit to doing it that way is that they're free, right, so you could go see a student intern that's supervised by a licensed person and it's free, but with first responders. When I tell you there was no interest whatsoever, and I can't even tell you how many times I tried it, I also tried it with vets and the same thing happened.
Speaker 3:It kind of fell flat, you just gotta, I'm trying.
Speaker 2:So if you have any, if you have any pointers, let me know.
Speaker 3:Oh, I mean, hey, like I'll get you in touch with our executive director and you know, like I think that like there's also the international association of veterinary social workers, they're also a great organization to connect with.
Speaker 2:That's good to know. Can you also send me that information as well, because then I can read all of that stuff. Yeah, absolutely One of the things when you had mentioned Dr Yin, was it? I can't remember the name. Sophia.
Speaker 3:Yin Sophia Yin.
Speaker 2:What I was surprised by and, corey, you have the numbers for this was.
Speaker 3:It looks like suicide rates among female vets were higher, which is, oh, it's not. That wasn't the case core.
Speaker 2:I thought it was. Oh it's. Yes, it it is, I believe. I think core core has the actual numbers. She looked it up. I just for some reason I thought it was. What is it core?
Speaker 1:one in six veterinarians consider suicide at one point during their career. Male veterinarians have 1.6 times increased risk for death by suicide. Female veterinarians have a 2.4 times increased risk.
Speaker 2:So that means they are at more risk, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which surprises me, because usually it's men that are higher risk. So what do you think? Well, first of all, oh, go ahead, cora, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:All technicians have a five times increased risk.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so our technical staff, so our certified veterinary technicians. We also have hospital assistants. We have other type of. We have non non-licensed, non-licensed veterinary um uh assistance and our um, our uh CSRs. Our customer service representatives also have and, like we haven't studied every cohort yet, right, we also have to look at office managers too. It's across the board, right.
Speaker 1:Which is what I love about? Not One Vet.
Speaker 4:Not.
Speaker 1:One Vet. It's everybody and we want to talk about students as well Like it's everybody in the profession.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everybody, and it's also animal welfare.
Speaker 3:Oh yep, right. So, actually, like, animal welfare is. So that's still within animal care, right. So, like I am, and you know what I would guarantee you, if you looked at like wildlife ecologists, right, like, and anyone involved in animal care, in care, is having a hard time. Um, it's like, it's a it's, it's rough, right, and I think and I I've spent a lot of time thinking about it because, um, like, every, every veterinary GP has ER moments, like, I have codes, I have cases that are gut wrenching, that make it into our clinic. I have cases that I have to manage that are like I am pulling all resources together and picking an animal between the emergency team and my team because I can't get them in to be seen by an internist because we don't have enough and they can't be seen for like a month and the issue is critical now, right.
Speaker 3:So I usually think that, for me at least, personally, what I've observed and this is kind of anecdotal like we're still understanding dimensions of mental health in our profession, right, we don't, we, we did uh, uh, there was a research paper looking, trying to look at intersectionality. Um, I have a hard time interacting with it because it's a little traumatizing in general. So I'm like, uh, because I think it was like they didn't quite have enough people to ask questions of and that's like. You know, like I, I struggle with that every day, like because we don't, we don't have. I want the mental health survey that we do in our field to look like the topics that you are covering in your podcast. That's the survey I want. Hasn't been done yet.
Speaker 2:Well, if I can do, if we can do anything to help, let me know, erica, one of the things that you just mentioned, which I think when you were talking about how you wanted to read it, but it was triggering to you. I've actually heard the same thing about the Facebook page for Not Another Vet is that?
Speaker 3:because I think they post a lot when, when vets commit suicide, right, or there's like notifications of when vets commit suicide. Yeah, that's gosh. We have, we have always kind of navigated that process is very delicate, right, so, like, first and foremost, the, the needs and the wishes of the family need to be what is centered and honored, right. So, um, in any circumstance, um, we, sometimes we hear about it, just because we are a space that people go to, um, and usually people would be like did, did anyone find out or did anyone hear about blah, blah, blah, right, and we kind of there's different ways. So, just, basically, we wait to be contacted because, you know, sometimes, as an organization we're, although we are very like mental health, like centered, there's still that component of, of of suicide, right, that's our. So, our, our, our, like, you know, our, um, uh, president Emeritus, uh, yeah, uh, Dr Kerry.
Speaker 3:Journey, those like our. Our very presence, you know, implies something. So we usually have to be very delicate on our initial approaches and it really is about holding space, for if someone wants the support we have you know, mental health care professionals, that or we, we, we search for the mental health care professionals in the area, um, local resources, um, we have like grieving resources, um, we try and be present for the community as they want, um and um. You know, as far as like the face, but like social media is like challenge, right?
Speaker 2:well, that's the truth, right, it's always a mixed bag um and so like.
Speaker 3:Personally, I don't really interact with social media. I really try and engage with like direct action work because that's like my personal preference of like working with people to get them connected to like professional mental health support if that's what they want, or just like books or whatever like, or just a friend, right like you, just like hang out. There's a thing that I came across. I still have to do the research deep dive, but it was like eight minutes on the phone with a friend when you're in distress can help re-regulate your nervous system a bit.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:You know, but like, if that's the case, like that's powerful Of course, there was a fact I wanted to put out, and then core, because I know you've done a lot of research, so I want to make sure you get a chance to ask questions with the research. In terms of suicide, survivors of suicide are More likely they have a higher risk commit suicide themselves. Right so, if in its exponential. So if you have a family member who commit suicide themselves, right so if it's exponential. So if you have a family member who commits suicide, you're two times more likely to commit suicide. And if you have another person who commits suicide, you're four times more likely to commit suicide.
Speaker 2:And of all of the ways somebody can die, whether it's, you know, murder, like natural disaster or natural causes or whatever suicide is the one that people never recover from, ever, because they just don't. They don't have the answers. It's always what did I miss? Should I have done this, should I have done that? Like, could I have stopped it, etc. Like even random people who have very brief contact with that person will have those feelings of like what did I miss? How did I? And you know it's, it's, it's just such a tragedy, it's awful. What was there anything from the research that you wanted to ask?
Speaker 1:Well, so I guess, to get back, I want to ask two things. Like some of the things that impact a vet's daily life in terms of stressors, like some of the things I was reading on the website were really interesting because I'd never heard them before.
Speaker 3:So like yeah, being something, um, oh something dropped that, dropped the audio for the first thing that you said.
Speaker 1:So could you repeat that cyber bullying was something I had never considered. Um student debt, um constraints, that that one seemed a little obvious but still kind of what you were saying. Um, as listeners, as just people who interact with veterinarians, if we could talk a little bit about like what your day looks like, and then as people, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:Um, it's different for every veterinarian. I mean, every place is a little different, right? So it depends on whether or not the place takes drop-offs, walk-ins, scheduled appointments, how, like, how densely my appointments are scheduled, how staffed well-staffed, I am right. So sometimes we fall behind because, like, sometimes you need three people to interact with an animal to get a blood sample. Yep, this is just the reality of the situation. You need one person restraining for safety of everyone involved, right, these are the people that keep me alive and keep me from having a mauled face, which is totally something that happens, right? So that person is really important and that person needs to focus on that job and they can't do more than one thing, right. Then you have the person that's pulling the sample. They're working with a sharp needle, they're doing a thing that might get a reaction and we're trying to do it in as gentle as way possible. So usually, with a lot of animals, we can just do that with two people and it's okay. But every now and then, there's an animal that needs another thing. This involves lightly tapping the head, shoving cheese in its face, singing a song, like we will literally do, freaking like Broadway musicals to make your pets more comfortable, um, and to get what we need to do while also staying safe.
Speaker 3:And I think that sometimes, I think, in general, just like patience, right, just patience and understanding, and like when we like we're not going to be able to do this today because it's stressing out. You know, fifi, what's my favorite? I don't know. I have, like, so many wonderful pet names, and sometimes we can't solve everything. And sometimes we need diagnostics, right, which are expensive, and, trust me, we are anxious about it too. You know, like we will try and work with you, but there are some things like, we are not like money, like it's not expensive, because we're trying to pull one over on you, right, and I think that is the challenge.
Speaker 3:And I think that sometimes, um, medicine is an art, right, it's like the art and the practice of medicine, right, everything about each individual animal, yeah, I had a one, one patient that was severely allergic to a standard type of medicine that the owner had been using from previously, right, and I had to figure out like which one wasn't going to cause a reaction in some of the typical like, so, so we have to work together, and it can be difficult to communicate, right, and communicate under stress. So I think that sometimes, like I'm pretty lucky that I have been able to work through difficult conversations with clients that needed to emotionally process something, that was like making them upset right, because it's people are very like I say, say, like veterinary professionals are taking care of the mental health of our nation by taking care of pets.
Speaker 1:That's really well said. I like that.
Speaker 3:And that's a big responsibility, right, like I know, like pets saved my life, pets and animals saved my life every single day. Right, I get it. I understand, we understand we are like at times we are at a loss because we are trying to be the most perfect we can be, for in, in our devotion to our practice. Right, every veterinarian feels this way.
Speaker 1:And I think one of the things that's really hard when we talk about this because we don't expect surgeons in the medical field to also be able to speak with their patients, family and express, like all these things, and hold the emotional brunt. But then when I was in the research it was like no veterinarian schools are teaching, you know, students how to handle this and that's a lot, that's yeah, well, there is a new model that I hope continues to like progress, which is the um veterinary social worker that is in the building right.
Speaker 3:There are some hospitals that are large enough that have a social worker on staff that can help um clients process those feelings and have that space held for them.
Speaker 2:Um with also like some knowledge would they also be there for the vets though?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because I that's the goal. I can tell you in a hospital setting, right. So like I've worked in a hospital setting and they have hospital social workers and they are there to serve the patients. But when I have a lot of clients who are nurses and when they lose patients, I'll say to them what did the hospital do? Like, did the hospital have any sort of protocol to come talk to you and help you grieve? They're like nope, they just say suck up and move on to the next patient.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my concern is that that would be the same thing, right Is that it would just, I think sometimes I think it depends on the hospital, right, and it depends on the social worker, and this is also the kind of thing that I run into. Two like with working, uh, in student advocacy right, like I have like one university that has like three mental health professionals available, uh, all of they have like qpr certified uh faculty. They have like different stages of like interpersonal communication, like there's like all sorts of there. There are programs that are like super innovative and then there are other programs that are like antagonistic and gaslight and mistreat their students when the students are like, hey, this is not working for us, like we're having a hard time, so yeah, like I think that makes veterinary medicine very exciting and also incredibly infuriating, but what it means is that anything is possible, right.
Speaker 3:So, like the right clinic, the right hospital that would have that relationship, would design that or check in with that social worker, say, can you do both? If not both, then I need two, one for the people, one for the pet parents. How big? Do we actually have enough capacity? Can everyone who need to be seen within a week be seen in a week, or do we need more resources? Yeah, my gosh, that could be done you know you had earlier.
Speaker 2:You had earlier talked about end stage capitalism. Of course, that's the first thing I think of right. So like, if you have, if you have two social workers there, one for the vets and one for the pet parents, then they need to be paid.
Speaker 4:So it's going to drive up the the cost of the services and it's it just kind of keeps doing this like I don't know. Now it's unaffordable right.
Speaker 3:No, I know you don't have the answer but like these are things I mean, like I think the important thing and this is the thing that I get, like I have, I have a reputation for this in the industry, right where I'm like well, let's imagine where we could be. I get this from my mom and so I joke that it's like very Taiwanese of me to be like, because you know, like there was several rounds of colonization, then military occupation, then military dictatorship, then this dreaming of democracy, right, and dreaming of maintaining it right. So I'm a dreamer. I have a tendency to be like how far can I, you know, trump myself down the path and stick a flag and be like this is where we're going to go.
Speaker 2:Well, we need that. We need people who are visionaries and people who can look down the road and say, like this is what we need to do. I just I wish everybody was on the same page with this yeah, I mean, that's the problem.
Speaker 3:So this is why I work with students like this is. This is why I work with students. Because, um, when I communicate to students that I am really excited for them to join this field, while also simultaneously making the field that they are entering in better, like, I am like this is the stuff that you need to be like, this is the stuff you are that you deserve, and stop Right. So now they have the information that they need to be like, this is unacceptable. I will not tolerate abuse, right. And then, on the other side, I have the leadership that I'm like hey, y'all. Uh, you're not gonna have a choice. I am making sure that those young ones have that language. So if we like are going to, yeah, so that's like first part, because some stuff you can just do by better communication. This is compassion with each other, right?
Speaker 2:of course, and this is why I think students are so important. Like the student, you know the student entrance. Like, unfortunately, you know they're not paid and I wish that they could be paid, but they're not and they're. They're a great resource to use and it would be so much more effective to have students doing work for you in a veterinarian clinic, talking to vets and family, family families of pets, than it would be for them to have be doing like busy work, filing paper and answering phones.
Speaker 2:Right, but like, unfortunately, that's where a lot of them end up and it's right that's a whole problem, though you had mentioned earlier that you've lost students to suicide too correct, is that common?
Speaker 3:It is more common. It is like the source of my greatest distress, heartbreak and dissatisfaction.
Speaker 2:What do you think? What do you think causes it? Is it the? Is it the workload? Is it the? Is it the financial burden Is burden. Do you have any thoughts on it?
Speaker 3:I think it's multidimensional. I think that, well, so I'm ADHD, autistic ADHD. I've never had accommodations during my education and it almost, like it put me in severe clinical depression, right, because that was during my PhD work, right, so like that was before. I knew that, like I needed a certain amount of stimulation to regulate my dopamine appropriately not to drop into clinical depression. Like these are things that I did not understand about my brain. I did not understand, you know, like there's things like we are pushed so far, like the amount of sleep deprivation, the amount of like being told like you you should know this, right, but like maybe we're not actually teaching in a way that students are able to absorb it that's a whole nother conversation, because we could do an entire podcast.
Speaker 2:Just right, what you just said yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean like, so, and not only that, but like our professors aren't taught to teach, it's across the. It's across like biomed. It's across stem. Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't think that that's an unfair statement. It's across stem.
Speaker 3:This is structural. It's like there's, there's and there's also the isms in it. Right, there's isms in our educational systems and there's just like the hierarchy of medicine, it like I always say this, like hierarchy is only there for functionality, not for oppression. Functionality, not for oppression. We have the position in the hierarchy because we are supposed to be responsible, principled and ethical stewards of the people below us and developing and being part of a culture of care, community care. This is what happens when your mom is a Taoist.
Speaker 3:Right, like, but so like that is not happening sometimes. Like we are not approaching we're instead of being like our students aren't being successful right now. What do we? What barriers? What things are going on? Do we need to enhance their learning experience? How are we missing the mark? Not what's wrong with these students? You're lazy, you just need to work harder.
Speaker 3:Like it's seriously the most absurd thing. Every single veterinary student that gets into vet school is should be finishing and and practicing medicine wherever they want to, because it takes that much grit, dedication, hard work to even get into vet school. So I'm just like I'm always like you know we should be, yeah, but this is like. This is a cultural difference, right. This is about cultural perpetuity. It's the like Maslow's hierarchy of needs comes from the Blackfoot nation, so it's incomplete, right, that we need to think about our cultural perpetuity and how we are investing in care, our industry or our ecosystem, and that's like the thing that I'm going around being like just take care of each other, like you know, like why does it only have to be in disaster? We can do that all the time.
Speaker 2:I 100% agree with you and I want to go back to something that C said and core. You were talking about cyber bullying in terms of you know veterinarians and and how that impacts them, and I know just to give you a piece of personal information you know as an educator myself we get the end of the reviews from the students at the end of the semester that you know have all these reviews on like how we did, and in one of actually the class that Cora was in, there was a couple students that I caught using chat gbt, you know they.
Speaker 2:They obviously have the consequences related to that. So then the reviews were, of course, horrible and they like made stuff up, they like trashed me and said things that I never said and like were just really awful, and it got to the point where I'm like you know, I'm not even to read them anymore because, like it's not worth reading, which is a problem, because then people like cora, who we've like really good remarks and, like you know, have all this positive stuff I'm just not going to read because it's not worth it. So in terms of vets, it's, you know, it's more like an external thing, right, so people can go on like yelp and they can go on all sorts of reviews and write terrible, terrible reviews about vets. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3:So there are a lot of different. So the AVMA has some strategies. They've put together a response packet. We have some cyber bullying resources no, actually cyber harassment resources, reframing so cyber harassment because what it is, it is harassment.
Speaker 3:Usually people are engaging in threats, they're trying to mobilize people to harass a location through like phone calls, even like physical threats, death threats, those kinds of things. We have had violence show up at veterinary clinics and we have to take it very seriously. There is a strategy that some veterinary practices are engaging in that are creating contracts that new clients sign. That basically makes it clear that if one engages in that type of harassment because usually it's just like you know, if it's a single bad review and somebody like counters it or you know each clinic will decide how they want to like address it or not. If there's like misinformation, that kind of thing, like have a response versus like not engaging versus someone who's like really organized, like blasted and like tried to be like this clinic did this thing to me. They killed my animal. Go like throw rocks at their windows Right, this happens, right, right.
Speaker 3:So I think that veterinary hospitals are working on making sure that people have response plans that their staff feel trained on how to approach things, how to navigate de-escalation techniques, and also that there are people within the clinic that feel comfortable navigating that.
Speaker 3:And also just like understanding that there's legal recourse, right, like if you bring down thousands of people to harass a place of business with repeated phone calls or throwing rocks at windows or you know threats of violence, we're going to respond to that.
Speaker 3:You are probably not going to be seen by that veterinarian anymore, right, that's like the thing where, uh, if you are probably not going to be seen by that veterinarian anymore, right, that's like the thing where, if you are like it's just plain and simple, if someone is rude or yells or swears at my staff or makes my staff feel uncomfortable, I am going to, you know, fire that that client. I'm going to say we go, say go forth and find yourself another clinic, right, and so, like some of it is pre-communication, some of it is calling it like more recognizing the degree of harassment and what that is and remind people when they're like keyboard warriors, right, like we care about each other. The veterinary profession is small and under duress, right, and when you are under such duress, when things are so hard, you often have to have a more firm boundaries because you don't have excess bandwidth to mess around with. Yeah, we're just, we're working, we're working on our boundaries.
Speaker 2:I just I want to throw this out really quickly, so I may have to take a phone call because I was in an accident before I went to Italy and the agent is supposed to be calling me back at 10. So if I step away, that's why, Okay, but how you deal with pet euthanasia as a personally not as as like the families, but personally, how do you deal with that?
Speaker 1:Is that something you feel? Oh, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it just it takes. It takes a little bit of a moment because this is, in my opinion, like. I refer to it as a kind of like companion death, doula-ing practice. The human-animal bond is what my oath is to, it's what I've dedicated my life to. I would say euthanasia is where I bring in ritual the most. My oath is to. It's what I've dedicated my life to, right, it's like it's. I would say, euthanasia is where I bring in ritual the most.
Speaker 3:You know, like I am very much a Buddhist and a Taoist and with the other aspects of how I grew up, like death was pretty calm, like I had a familiarity with a death, with death, from a young age. I'm not, I'm not, I'm comfortable with it, right, that's part of that's part of Buddhism, right, alleviation of suffering is also part of it. So, um, I view it as an honor. It's hard, but it is something that I am willing to hold. That, now, that's not all veterinarians, of course, and, like you already stated, like this is personal expression, so I am able to handle it pretty comfortably.
Speaker 3:Um, and there are like really tough ones, like puppy hit by car wolf those are garbage, right. Every, uh, like young animal lily toxicity, for example. Um, it's a way that I know I can serve and I know I'm comfortable bearing witness and holding space for grief. That is heavy.
Speaker 3:And the human animal bond it's like the coolest thing, right, like, like, holy heck, how lucky are we as human beings, like I think that's the coolest thing about being a human being is that you can have this type of like deep relationship with whatever the creature may be a fish, an octopus, you know, a deer, a cow, a pig, uh, you know a pocket pet, like a hamster, like all those things, right, those I love everything about it. Bees, you know, like I'm just a total geek for it. That's like my like here, like my autistic enthusiasm, I'm like flinging my hands around, so, and you know, life comes to an end, and so, for me, euthanasia is the space where we have, if we have the opportunity, a little bit of space, although I definitely have those ones that are not pretty.
Speaker 2:I think it's how people don't not, that's obviously, but people don't respect or value that relationship. So I had a 17 year old cat and she was already in early stage kidney failure and she had a couple of medical issues going on. And there was a Friday where it was like early Friday morning I realized that she hadn't she'd stopped using letterbox like a year ago. So she was using puppy pads and I noticed that she had not. There was like no solid waste coming and I was like, oh God, she's not eating. And then I noticed that she was going to the cat fountain and she was just looking at the water but she wasn't drinking it and I was like, oh boy. So you know, I called my vet and unfortunately they couldn't see me that day.
Speaker 2:So and I knew it was like, I knew it was the end, it was like this, and so the option was again it was a friday was I could take her to the emergency room, which would have involved getting her in a car and like driving her an hour away, and I thought I don't want to stress her out. So I looked into places. I came home, came to your house to do it and lap of of love, by the way, most amazing freaking agency I've ever seen in my entire life. That woman was freaking, incredible. But so I called them and obviously it's it's expensive, but it's a little bit more expensive than it would be if I had gone to the emergency room, probably by like 200 bucks, like not, you know not.
Speaker 2:And this is again 17 year old cat, huge, huge, huge, like important part of my life. So I made the decision to do it and I called somebody that I care about and I mentioned what was happening. The response was basically what a waste of money. We'll just come shoot her and then you can bury her in the backyard oh my god, I'm so sorry I was literally like, oh, no, worst possible.
Speaker 2:But. But that's just kind of a testament to what like people will say, because they don't they don't value the, the human animal connection and you know I I was disgusted by it. It was like a horrible thing to say, and it was just like I'm kidding, and it was like don't even, like, don't, like, don't yeah, I'd be like I don't.
Speaker 3:My autistic social bandwidth would be like I don't think I can talk to you for at least a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a horrible thing to say, but it's not the first time I've heard stuff like that, either towards me or towards other people, and people are like, oh, it's just a cat, it's just a dog, like what's the big deal, like you know, just kind of get over it.
Speaker 3:And you don't have to. That's not going to be the case with your veterinary professional team that supports you through it oh, of course not.
Speaker 3:I'm talking about right, yeah, but like I think that that's kind of the thing, that sometimes there are people who care about life and there are people who don't. Now I like that sounds a little bit harsh, but like in some ways, like yeah, right, like there are people who are like we need to do everything we can and we need, or, if we can't, we need to be the most ethical right, like I did food animal because I care about food security and I left because I couldn't. I couldn't do what I needed to do to move things forward in parts of the industry and experience racialized misogyny at the same time. I'm sorry you experienced that. Uh, thank you for holding space for that. And also, like it's one of those things where you know like we humans have a multidimensional relationship with animals, with wildlife right.
Speaker 3:Like when I first started by journey, I wanted to be a wildlife veterinarian but I was like I can't afford that. So I did a combined degree, I got my PhD in developmental neuroscience so I could pay for my veterinary school because there was no other way that I was going to happen. I didn't, I didn't have the financial resources right, which is like a barrier right For for diversity in veterinary medicine, but I realized that you know. So there are like people who care and people who don't, and people who are going to be empathetic and people who aren't there yet, like my. My hope is always like. I hope that you're just not there yet and soon you will understand more about the dimensions of emotionality that can happen around this and how caring for each other as human beings and as living beings I mean. I'm just like, why would you want to be anything else? I don't understand it, but you know, I'm a Buddhist veterinarian. What can I say?
Speaker 1:I think when I was doing some of the research about veterinary and burnout and how one of the things that can really happen is people can become so burnt out emotionally that they can't really express compassion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that they can't feel anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I do think that sometimes you hear other people's experiences like, oh, this vet didn't care, this vet was like not engaging, and I just want to say like we need to hold space for compassion for those people too, and we need to help those people find help.
Speaker 3:Right, A hundred percent, and this is why I was like, oh gosh. You know I have had the privilege of working and having some really amazing conversations with mental healthcare professionals and social workers that that care about animals right and that care about the people who care for animals. It's been like mental healthcare support and through like professionals has been although not always 100% safe been transformative for me and I feel very fortunate that I had access to that from a young age. It was very normalized and so I want that for more people in my industry and so I would say, yes, if your veterinarian is not showing up as the compassionate person that you would need, that there is likely burnout, that there is likely them being overworked or potentially a really, really tough case that they had that is just preoccupying their mind.
Speaker 2:While we were having this conversation, I literally just emailed my vet that I had in Rhode Island to say thank you for being such an amazing vet, because he's one of the things I miss about living in Rhode Island. So just like, hey, thanks for all the great work you did.
Speaker 3:I mean, like we like it's a win. Like you know, I get to see windows of the human animal bond, right, and people want to. That's like why we're there, right, we want to support you on this journey of your human animal bond. That we know is so like. So it's like, yeah, we're, we're here doing this, you know, holding space for um death and being like one of my um colleagues, dr mallory preston, uh, put like this meme. That was like sometimes I wake up in the middle of diet three. I'm thinking about your pet. That's for free, right, and that's real, right. Like I have pets where, like I leave and I'm like, ooh, you're going to make it a week. I really hope so.
Speaker 4:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:Especially, like you know, a case workup over a day that we're like, ah, I hope that, like we did enough to like make it work and get the body in a position to heal or reacclimate to a new normal, that is acceptable. And sometimes we're doing it with, like chewing gum and bailing twine, what it feels like medically right, a hope and a prayer. Or we're having to be really honest and be like I'm sorry, can't do anything. That's got to be such a hard conversation to have.
Speaker 2:I know it's because it's a hard conversation to hear. You know, when someone says to you like there's nothing we can do, it's very similar to anything else in your life where it's really important and you care about it and you're being told that this is the end.
Speaker 3:I mean, honestly, I think what works best for me is I'm just very straightforward with people, Right. I don't I just go straight Like, if I've got bad news, I walk in and I'm like, sit down. I sit down with them, I said I'm sorry, I have bad news, let's talk through it, right. And um, you know, I think that, um, I have conversations with my clients about what might be ahead of them. I'm a very like. I'm like we're going to talk about the map out, right, and, and that is what's needed. And sometimes, when we are pressured to have, like I can't do that in a 15 minute appointment, it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 1:And I think, as a society, some of the things that could help parents is to talk, have those conversations about like, like. What are you going to do when this happens?
Speaker 3:um right, yeah, to make a plan right, plans feel good. Structure in chaos I think that, like you know, humanitarian and disaster responses are structure as much as possible in the midst of chaos. Our MASH clinic, the same right, access to care, so many things, right, that's what medicine is. Structure in the midst of unpredictable chaos? That we're doing the best. I mean, it's not entirely unpredictable. We do have, like, a lot of data and information about certain things, about what is likely to happen, right, but we're doing, we are, we are figuring things out from multiple streams of information and we're trying to make our best judgment.
Speaker 3:And you know, it's the same thing with doctors, right, and it's always very interesting, like I'm currently, you know, in communication with, like different doctors of different teams involving, like me or my parents, right, care is hard, especially when, I mean, we've been having conversations about our healthcare system since before I decided to go to veterinary medicine instead of human medicine. I never was going to go to human medicine. I just let my parents think for a little bit that it might be a possibility, but I was probably going to say it was all going to be animals.
Speaker 1:Really Much you know like.
Speaker 2:Cora, we didn't hear you, I think. I think you might be too far from the mic or something can you hear me now?
Speaker 1:yes, all right. I just think that we need to normalize a little bit more. You know like we put so much energy, love, finances, finances into our pets but then pass away like society is just like, oh, get over, get over it, but like, no, they're our family, right.
Speaker 2:Listen. I cried more for my pets that have died than I have for some humans that have died Seriously.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the you know people. There are a lot of people doing research on human-animal bond and like there's a component of that, like animals are very and and like we'll just say like a lot of autistic people made like I made it survived by having the companionship of animals. As an autistic person, there's a lot of amusing like content of like a person being at a new location and being like, oh, there's an animal here. Okay, I know that I was supposed to have a conversation with you, but I'm actually just going to hang out with your dog until you say that I can go right, like and that's like not entirely, but like obviously, like for me, any space is more calming if there are animals there, right, because, um, animals, I feel, have like a very um, I don't know, they teach you things. I think they teach you things about yourself and about the way that you can interact with another being. And animals have reciprocal relationships. If you invest in a relationship with an animal, that animal will invest in you.
Speaker 1:And they don't judge yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know, there was a couple of cats in Italy that I was trying to pet and they were very judgy.
Speaker 3:They was like Well you have to establish a relationship. Right Cats are like.
Speaker 2:I don't know you. They were very judgy. I have pictures of them.
Speaker 4:They're like I don't know you.
Speaker 3:I only have five people that I approve. Right, right.
Speaker 2:Well, Erica, thank you so much. We're running short on time, so we are going to have you back to talk about a different topic, though. Yeah, I really look forward to that.
Speaker 4:Julie was there anything you wanted to ask or comment before we wrap up. No, I think that this was an amazing conversation. I'm sorry I didn't contribute a lot, I was just listening. Um, when I was actually first looking into social work, I discovered the veterinary social work. That was like kind of a path and yeah, um, it's not really. There's not really much discussion in new england about it, which is a little disappointing, but much I was gonna say let's get in touch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have people I can connect you with Would be happy to.
Speaker 2:That would be awesome, because then I can justify taking another student Right. Yeah, that would be awesome.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, we'll do a lot of email connections. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Perfect.
Speaker 3:This was so much fun.
Speaker 2:Erica, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time and effort that you put. First of all, I appreciate all the stuff that you're doing just in your life. I mean you're making a lot of changes and then I appreciate that you took the time to be here, so thank you so much and send me, or Corey, the information. I'll put it all on the podcast description for the website and anything that you need that we can help you with. Please let me know, okay.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you so much. All right, thank you, I appreciate it. Bye everybody.
Speaker 4:Bye.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
